Danikat.8537 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Gopaka.7839" said: > Can we simplify things just once without adding all the colors of the rainbow when there is a topic about male and female characteristics? Just for once put your thought on a scale and decide how does Jormag voice and vibes seem to you, without staying in the middle? More of the feminine side or more of the masculine? Also English is not my native language, so I'm simplifying things just with male/female... do not hate for that please. I'm a behavioural biologist so I've had years of people teaching me _not_ to think that way; that I should never assume an animal is male or female or in charge of a group or happy or sad or anything else just because something about it reminds me of how humans act. (And with good reason, we've wasted a lot of time and research trying to force the evidence to fit incorrect assumptions like 'the smaller ones must be female' or 'the leader of the group is male' because for a long time people refused to believe that how humans act isn't universal). By now it's habit for me, it almost wouldn't occur to me to say that because the voice actor they got for Jormag sounds female the dragon must be female. Plus I think the conversation is more interesting if we consider other options too. One of the things which makes Elder Dragons interesting is they aren't human and they aren't 'just' flying lizards, they're something different from what you see in most games or stories. If that only goes as far as their appearance and then they act just like humans they become a lot more boring. But my answer is still: we don't know. I agree that the voice actor in that video sounded like a woman, but I don't think that's enough to go on. > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > @"ClickToKill.8473" said: > > Elder Dragons seem to be primordial forces that don't have the concept of gender. They don't have concepts mortals have to begin with, as we learned with Kralkatorrik. > > > > Also, are we sure that is really Jormag's voice? Maybe Jormag has a herald. > > They confirmed it was Jormag on one of the writers twitter replies and that Jormag is non binary Do you have a link to that? I've never been able to make sense of Twitter, half the time I can't re-find a tweet from someone I follow, so I don't like my chances of going looking for this one, but I'd like to see exactly what they said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randulf.7614 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Danikat.8537" said: > Do you have a link to that? I've never been able to make sense of Twitter, half the time I can't re-find a tweet from someone I follow, so I don't like my chances of going looking for this one, but I'd like to see exactly what they said. I'll highlight this as well since it ties in with this thread's poll (even though I think it is a grave mistake to be thinking of ED's as "people") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProtoGunner.4953 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I am not sure if these forces of nature have a gender at all? Don't think in settled things, everything is fluid. But most would say: well it's a huge dragon with a deep voice, hence male... tropes, tropes everywhere! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Whether Dragons have gender or not is completely irrelevant since they all seem to reproduce asexually regardless of how masculine or feminine their voice/personalities are. I like the casting choice on Jormag's voice personally, it gives Jormag this manipulative, devious pressence which is exactly what it's personality type is. Jormag prefers to corrupt it's minions through manipulation rather than just straight up twist and enslave them with magic like Kralkatorrik or Zhaitan, and with Mordremoth's magic too I love the idea that Jormag has become even more intelligent and manipulative as a result. Personally though this whole gender discussion thing is a bad idea imo, specially in todays political climate and I hope the devs distance themselves from it because I am already seeing a lot of people projecting their preferred genders on this dragon and that is guaranteed to lead to a lot of arguing and fighting in the long run which is only going to hurt the friendly nature of this game's community. We all know how much of a no win situation that will be for Anet if they suddonly find themselves with multiple groups of angry people demanding they confirm Jormag is male, female, non binery, etc etc etc.. and once they open that door that crap will be a constant recurring thing every single time a new Dragon comes into the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randulf.7614 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Teratus.2859" said: > Whether Dragons have gender or not is completely irrelevant since they all seem to reproduce asexually regardless of how masculine or feminine their voice/personalities are. > > I like the casting choice on Jormag's voice personally, it gives Jormag this manipulative, devious pressence which is exactly what it's personality type is. > Jormag prefers to corrupt it's minions through manipulation rather than just straight up twist and enslave them with magic like Kralkatorrik or Zhaitan, and with Mordremoth's magic too I love the idea that Jormag has become even more intelligent and manipulative as a result. > > Personally though this whole gender discussion thing is a bad idea imo, specially in todays political climate and I hope the devs distance themselves from it because I am already seeing a lot of people projecting their preferred genders on this dragon and that is guaranteed to lead to a lot of arguing and fighting in the long run which is only going to hurt the friendly nature of this game's community. > We all know how much of a no win situation that will be for Anet if they suddonly find themselves with multiple groups of angry people demanding they confirm Jormag is male, female, non binery, etc etc etc.. and once they open that door that kitten will be a constant recurring thing every single time a new Dragon comes into the story. > > It'll be fine since Anet have already answered the question and said further elaboration will appear in the story (see above tweets) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taygus.4571 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Randulf.7614" said: > > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > Do you have a link to that? I've never been able to make sense of Twitter, half the time I can't re-find a tweet from someone I follow, so I don't like my chances of going looking for this one, but I'd like to see exactly what they said. > > > > I'll highlight this as well since it ties in with this thread's poll (even though I think it is a grave mistake to be thinking of ED's as "people") > > This seems the most fitting to me anyway. They are sexless beings. They have no biological sex. But are intelligent enough to understand gender. It makes sense that the more they interact with humans/peoples/races etc. the more likely they are to define their gender in such terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Now I really want to know how the Sons of Svanir will handle this information. In a way it should fit with their view that Jormag is Dragon and a Spirit of the Wild, since the other spirits are a representation of all animals of that species, not just the males or the females. But it seems like they've forgotten that Drakkar offered both Jora and Svanir his power, and the only reason she wasn't corrupted is she refused to accept it and now have this narrative that Jormag considers females unworthy and won't accept them so I can't imagine they'd be happy about Jormag being non-binary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Priestess.9760 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Well, they can't be sexless since they (seem to) reproduce sexually. I bet they are hermaphroditic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryukai.6524 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Dragon Priestess.9760" said: > Well, they can't be sexless since they (seem to) reproduce sexually. I bet they are hermaphroditic. You can have egg laying species that consist of only females and are not hermaphroditic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_whiptail edit: what is grammar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 While his voice is _definitely_ what we consider "**male**" in our human world, it does have an androgynous touch to it. Since we know, though, that dragons do have genders - because Aurene and Glint have been referred to as "she" and Kralkatorrik as "grandfather" - it has to be one or the other. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trise.2865 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Elder Dragons are like Legendary Pokemon: genderless unless it matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzarakiel.7490 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Doesn't matter. So far the gender of the dragons in the game has had no impact on the story. Why would Jormag be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragon Priestess.9760 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Ryukai.6524" said: > > @"Dragon Priestess.9760" said: > > Well, they can't be sexless since they (seem to) reproduce sexually. I bet they are hermaphroditic. > > You can have egg laying species that consist of only females and are not hermaphroditic. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Mexico_whiptail > > edit: what is grammar I have something to research today, Parthenogenesis! This is a new concept for me, so thanks for the information! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naxos.2503 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 They're force of nature, the only gender you can give them is purely grammatical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Illconceived Was Na.9781 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > Many players, including Wooden Potatoes, have this theory of Jormag being female because of the voice that was having in the new saga cinematic. What do you think... do you agree or disagree with this theory ? You forgot to ask, "do you think it matters in the least whether an elder dragon is male or female?" Aside from external factors (choice of voice actor, pronouns used in the writing, appellations used), how has has the story, Tyria, or the Commander been affected by the gender of Mordremoth, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, or even Aurene? Near as I can tell, it's been largely immaterial. To me, it's like "Mother Nature" -- there are sociological reasons to refer to nature as female, but no scientific importance in understanding "nature" in doing so. tl;dr I don't care if Jormag is voiced by a male or female VA, because I don't think it matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rico.6873 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Jormags gender is Draconic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zola.6197 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 The VA has been confirmed to be a woman. As for Jormag in universe, I’m guessing they are androgynous or genderless. The voice acting is clearly warped and pitched down, sounding more masculine, feminine, or in between at different parts. If they are going with a more ambiguous or androgynous approach to Jor’s gender presentation, I’m all for it. It’s nice to have some variety in my eldritch abominations. They don’t all need to sound like deep voiced old men. :p Edit: speculation of course, but at most I feel the voice/gender presentation of Jormag at most may influence how the Sons of Svanir are received by them. I’d love to see Jormag laugh at their misogynistic ways before flash freezing them. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randulf.7614 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Ashantara.8731" said: > While his voice is _definitely_ what we consider "**male**" in our human world, it does have an androgynous touch to it. > > Since we know, though, that dragons do have genders - because Aurene and Glint have been referred to as "she" and Kralkatorrik as "grandfather" - it has to be one or the other. ;) Need to stop using the "definitely" qualifier. I completely disagree - what may sound male to you does not to others. Myself included. Also, it can't be one or the other since the devs have already said Jormag is non-binary and the gender or gender references they used are merely narrative tools to help characterise the Dragons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashantara.8731 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said: > > Many players, including Wooden Potatoes, have this theory of Jormag being female because of the voice that was having in the new saga cinematic. What do you think... do you agree or disagree with this theory ? > You forgot to ask, "do you think it matters in the least whether an elder dragon is male or female?" It doesn't matter the least... to me (and hopefully to everyone else here as well!). _But_ I would get a good laugh out of the Sons of Svanir's reaction if those misogynists find out the dragon they have been worshipping for so long is female. :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batel.9206 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 It's an Elder Dragon - like a force of nature. We give hurricanes names like Dorian or Katrina, but that doesn't mean we refer to those hurricanes as male or female. They're just...it. Similarly, an Elder Dragon is just an *it*. And, frankly, it doesn't matter. Though I would like to add that giving Jormag's voice that ambiguity is *frightening*, because it reinforces just *how* otherworldly an Elder Dragon really is. So well done on the voice actress! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
videoboy.4162 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I voted for female presenting, because it's been confirmed that Jormag's VA is a woman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayra.7405 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"videoboy.4162" said: > I voted for female presenting, because it's been confirmed that Jormag's VA is a woman. So Siri & Co are female, too? ;) What's the gender of a robot building a robot? Or of a 3D-Printer printing a copy of itself? It's just the old-fashionedness of our language that let us classify everything as male/female. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donari.5237 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 I have no opinion, though that's not an option. Jormag's gender is flat-out irrelevant to me :) I hadn't even started to wonder until I saw this poll. I know ANet is pushing the story along so that the Elder Dragons are more than just forces of nature, but to me it still isn't something I think about in regards to them any more than I wonder if a hurricane or earthquake are male or female. Or a stampede of elephants -- there might be male and female elements inherent in the stampede, but the main concern is "is this going to trample important stuff?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elianora la blanche.1250 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 Jormag seems to be female and I find that pretty ironic considering how machist the Svanir's sons are ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taygus.4571 Posted September 2, 2019 Share Posted September 2, 2019 > @"Elianora la blanche.1250" said: > Jormag seems to be female and I find that pretty ironic considering how machist the Svanir's sons are ^^ They've already said. Jormag is non-binary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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