Vicariuz.1605 Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 Back in July I made a thread wondering if staff staff thief should get the same treatment the "degenerate" CI build got, aka nerfed to unplayability after the trait was completely disabled. The mods for some reason chose to move it to thief sub where it wont be seen again but here it is, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82885/staff-thief#latest One thing I noticed was that there seemed to be lots of LOL's and XD's about it. Here are those. > @"Alatar.7364" said: > I don't deny Staff DrD has lots of Evades in both Weapons and Traitline, but consider that it is only becuase it is heavily invested in it and is the only thing it can do Evade and Deal mediocre-dmg, if it was **actually** effective or dangerous then we'd see it as a viable/meta side-noder, but it is not because it just does two things only and in a very predictable fasion. > @"ZhouX.8742" said: > looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Staff thief lmao > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > Oh look. Thief's a side noder. > @"ZhouX.8742" said: > Which makes it useless, that's why it's funny. Thief's prime role is decapper. > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > See above post for the joke. > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > this build has always been useless and bad but it works in ranked because people will outnumber it so your main goal is go to far and 1v1 the entire game, but the true purpose of this build is simply stack people with you so your team can win fights. > > This is why u will never see this build in any monthly or anything close to competitive games because it's easily avoided and it's boring af. inb4 staff thief wins monthly owait it did LOL, inb4 staff thief is meta owait it is LOL, dont forget in-houses deciding if staff thief is allowed or not XD. So, are we an inclusive set of devs who treat all degenerate gameplay and builds the same? Yes / No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 How would it be fixed? I think make sure staff 3 don't work with jump is one, and staff mastery might need to lose the endurance regen. Also, Quick Pockets = gain 0 initiative if swapping to same weapon type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicariuz.1605 Posted October 26, 2019 Author Share Posted October 26, 2019 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > How would it be fixed? > > I think make sure staff 3 don't work with jump is one, and staff mastery might need to lose the endurance regen. > > Also, Quick Pockets = gain 0 initiative if swapping to same weapon type. > personally, I think jump staff 3 getting the big nerf would be a fantastic starting point with not a lot needed more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted October 26, 2019 Share Posted October 26, 2019 It is still not Meta and both Condi and Core S/D are still better picks especially regarding intra-profession build usefulness, at least I did not see a single one _(**ever**)_ in any of my matches, except me for fun. It won mAT because of a tactical error not because it would be meta, since this can truly deal with Warriors quite well. With that being said, in retrospective, the build and its gameplay really is too degenerate and too rewarding for how braindead it is to play, almost in a same manner as Condi S/D is. So ye, while I disagree about it being Meta or an urgent issue, I do agree this could receive several tweaks or nerfs. As was correctly mentioned several times, Staff #3 would be a perfect way to start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicariuz.1605 Posted October 26, 2019 Author Share Posted October 26, 2019 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > It is still not Meta and both Condi and Core S/D are still better picks especially regarding intra-profession build usefulness, at least I did not see a single one _(**ever**)_ in any of my matches, except me for fun. > It won mAT because of a tactical error not because it would be meta, since this can truly deal with Warriors quite well. > > With that being said, in retrospective, the build and its gameplay really is too degenerate and too rewarding for how braindead it is to play, almost in a same manner as Condi S/D is. > So ye, while I disagree about it being Meta or an urgent issue, I do agree this could receive several tweaks or nerfs. As was correctly mentioned several times, Staff #3 would be a perfect way to start. https://www.godsofpvp.net/ https://metabattle.com/wiki/Conquest the staff staff thief beating ele and holo 1v1 was more than a tactical error (in the mAT). agreed that condi s/d should see nerfs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elxdark.9702 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build. it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol. the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter. that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build. > > it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol. > > the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter. > that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage. man speek troof. when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > > it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build. > > > > it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol. > > > > the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter. > > that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage. > > man speek troof. > > when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild D/D Core Power Backstab is pretty dope, should give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > > > it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build. > > > > > > it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol. > > > > > > the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter. > > > that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage. > > > > man speek troof. > > > > when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild > > D/D Core Power Backstab is pretty dope, should give it a try. It's absolutely useless unless your team can always keep the pressure/peel up. In other words it works only when your team is not under pressure whenever you're +1ing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ocean.1469 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Alatar.7364" said: > It is still not Meta and both Condi and Core S/D are still better picks especially regarding intra-profession build usefulness, at least I did not see a single one _(**ever**)_ in any of my matches, except me for fun. > It won mAT because of a tactical error not because it would be meta, since this can truly deal with Warriors quite well. > > With that being said, in retrospective, the build and its gameplay really is too degenerate and too rewarding for how braindead it is to play, almost in a same manner as Condi S/D is. > So ye, while I disagree about it being Meta or an urgent issue, I do agree this could receive several tweaks or nerfs. As was correctly mentioned several times, Staff #3 would be a perfect way to start. You just said it yourself friend. When it comes to certain comps it is like meta +++ because jimmys sisters uncles grannys great grandmother could play it and she was deaf and blind. Delete it. Theif needs a serious look at and make some really good meta builds which are balanced and have good counterplay. The first place Anet should start is by making a thread about d/p theif and bring the build back into the game because that is what every theif loves to play, make that build fairly balanced and s/d power as well, then people won't want to play the cheese rubbish. Theif have serious problems right now more than any other class it is desperate for balance. D/p is where you start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Alatar.7364" said: Anet has given a lot of nice tools to play a cost effective boon steal equivalent of S/D with D/D based around pure stealth if you prefer not blinding everytime for sustain, good thing to not be bound on Larcenous Strike after a Flanking Strike which is a nice trade off from Infiltrating Strike. It has the same tools if not improving utility all besides Dagger Storm with more condition cleansing. It deserves all the rights to be called a duelist. Losing Improvisation is absolutely nothing to fuss over with so much Stealth and control over Evade frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crab Fear.1624 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > > > it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build. > > > > > > it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol. > > > > > > the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter. > > > that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage. > > > > man speek troof. > > > > when these builds are nerfed, thief will be extinct in the wild > > D/D Core Power Backstab is pretty dope, should give it a try. Is it the sbobby build? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Crab Fear.1624" said: > Is it the sbobby build? Nah. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PawAgiVlFw2YisLGJWMPfrTA-zZAPlMFBBMEKYBkxEwgDA Some variables here and there depending on your choice, Withdraw or Hide In The Shadows, Grandmaster Traits on Shadow Arts pick up or down, can always go with Trickster for Withdraw and Roll For Initiative if you prefer Boon Steal on each stealth attack, that fear can setup good blows for Heartseekers and it works when you remove boons. Actually faced p good players on it yesterday night. If you can get your Cloak and Dagger timing close to revealed removal, it's pretty lethal. Heartseeker pairs well Vs weak targets after backstabs with the Hidden Killer bonus. As said earlier, with more control on evades with Death Blossom, it's quite easy to sustain. I've heard some complains about losing Mug, tbh the siphon bonuses compensates for it if you're consistent, 3 Backstabs front or back heals you for 2094 in total and that can be done in less than 20 seconds. Obviously you still lose improvisation but with improved Stealth imo, doesn't matter as much. Edit: Honestly any rune works, though I prefer Centaur or Evasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > Anet has given a lot of nice tools to play a cost effective boon steal equivalent of S/D with D/D based around pure stealth if you prefer not blinding everytime for sustain, good thing to not be bound on Larcenous Strike after a Flanking Strike which is a nice trade off from Infiltrating Strike. > > It has the same tools if not improving utility all besides Dagger Storm with more condition cleansing. It deserves all the rights to be called a duelist. Losing Improvisation is absolutely nothing to fuss over with so much Stealth and control over Evade frames. > It definitely has its moment but due to Reveal and clunkiness of CnD _(in case of your build also due to lack of precision)_ it greatly lacks any real pressure outside the once on a while burst. Also why called it a duelist? The build is definitely not one, it's a typical +1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vicariuz.1605 Posted October 27, 2019 Author Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build. > > it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol. > > the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter. > that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage. NEVER said it was a good build, in fact the terminology I used was, DEGENERATE build. If the meta is chase kills over fighting for caps, then staff staff thief is the perfect choice as a fifth, since it will be left to cap and defend. It's been usable in mat for quite a while now, only recently has it actually been taken. I saw this coming from a mile away, and was LOL'd when I said it. Maybe now that it won an MAT it will be addressed, again preferably the same way the "degenerate" CI build was handled. I don't believe the only way to play the game is to zerg 3 points, the same way I didn't believe that degenerate staff staff thief was LOL and/or XD. The fact that USA lost to it should prove that in itself. BTW the staff staff thief that won took shadow portal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimjack.8130 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 People saying staff thief isn't meta, yikes. Double Staff Thief is meta, and it has been since the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted October 27, 2019 Share Posted October 27, 2019 > @"Vicariuz.1605" said: > Back in July I made a thread wondering if staff staff thief should get the same treatment the "degenerate" CI build got, aka nerfed to unplayability after the trait was completely disabled. > > The mods for some reason chose to move it to thief sub where it wont be seen again but here it is, https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/82885/staff-thief#latest > > One thing I noticed was that there seemed to be lots of LOL's and XD's about it. Here are those. > > > @"Alatar.7364" said: > > I don't deny Staff DrD has lots of Evades in both Weapons and Traitline, but consider that it is only becuase it is heavily invested in it and is the only thing it can do Evade and Deal mediocre-dmg, if it was **actually** effective or dangerous then we'd see it as a viable/meta side-noder, but it is not because it just does two things only and in a very predictable fasion. > > > @"ZhouX.8742" said: > > looooooooooooooooooooooooooooool > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Staff thief lmao > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > Oh look. Thief's a side noder. > > > @"ZhouX.8742" said: > > Which makes it useless, that's why it's funny. Thief's prime role is decapper. > > > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said: > > See above post for the joke. > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > > this build has always been useless and bad but it works in ranked because people will outnumber it so your main goal is go to far and 1v1 the entire game, but the true purpose of this build is simply stack people with you so your team can win fights. > > > > This is why u will never see this build in any monthly or anything close to competitive games because it's easily avoided and it's boring af. > > inb4 staff thief wins monthly owait it did LOL, inb4 staff thief is meta owait it is LOL, dont forget in-houses deciding if staff thief is allowed or not XD. > > So, are we an inclusive set of devs who treat all degenerate gameplay and builds the same? Yes / No? Some of the things people said there is just wrong. Thief is not just a decapper. Staff damage is actually really good so even bunker does good damage, but you don’t see bunker really killing people because the damage is predictable and hard to hit 100% of the time. I do think elxdark was correct at the time because players only used this build to annoy people at the time in ranked. The thing is the meta took a drastic change and now is meta. The thing is that the build is still kind of bad in the way that your team needs to play around you- for example there was no way sicario would’ve won that monthly if zyn didn’t baby sit the staff thief. Staff thief is definitely a boring useless build most of the time. That probably explains why people don’t want it in inhouses. I’d also like to point out as a thief main that condi thief hard counters staff/staff in addition to the bunker build being useless in 90% of ranked matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 > @"Grimjack.8130" said: > People saying staff thief isn't meta, yikes. Double Staff Thief is meta, and it has been since the changes. There weren’t really any changes though except that you get condi clear on dodge now. I would say it fits. > @"Alatar.7364" said: > It is still not Meta and both Condi and Core S/D are still better picks especially regarding intra-profession build usefulness, at least I did not see a single one _(**ever**)_ in any of my matches, except me for fun. > It won mAT because of a tactical error not because it would be meta, since this can truly deal with Warriors quite well. > > With that being said, in retrospective, the build and its gameplay really is too degenerate and too rewarding for how braindead it is to play, almost in a same manner as Condi S/D is. > So ye, while I disagree about it being Meta or an urgent issue, I do agree this could receive several tweaks or nerfs. As was correctly mentioned several times, Staff #3 would be a perfect way to start. What most people as to it not being meta is mostly that it isn’t an actually good thief build. This build is still in a precarious spot despite being in mAT winning teams. Just look at what happened to s/d- right when it became meta anet nerfed every single one of its passives. Staff is just an outlier in this meta tbh, it has no place besides stalling and this with slight changes can be instantly lost. > @"Elxdark.9702" said: > it's an unhealthy build for the game but that doesn't mean it's a good build. > > it is bad, and you know why it seems good? because people actually fight it, the only role this build has is 1v1 side, if you don't send anyone to 1v1 that then you are 4v5 because it does 0 damage in tfs and doesn't have any chase potential outside vault lol. > > the fact that this build is now usable in mats, it tells you how bad the game has become that there isn't a single rotation as a team, thief is gone portal is gone, everybody just zerg and press buttons until enemy is dead, rinse and repeat, there is not strategy no combos no sinergy, just spam your abilities because everything do so much damage that it doesn't matter. > that's when staff staff shines, when the only way to play the game is 3 points so you always need to 1v1 the staff thief instead of 2 points and decap but again there is not portal or thief there is just damage. A build that is useless 90% of the time that only exist as an outlier is just not going to be accepted to many thief mains as meta. Many of the people who play this build aren’t even thief mains nor are useful 90% of the time especially against an actually good thief player that can just win in a plus 1. Give staff thief nerfs that match the ones every other thief build received in the past year and it’s probably gonna die never to be called meta again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight Tempest.7584 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 We can quibble about semantics like "good build versus degenerate build", "viable versus meta", etc. But at the end of the day, does anyone want *any* build that is effectively perma-evades running around in *any* competitive mode? Think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimjack.8130 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 The only reason Staff Thief isn't and wasn't widely known as being meta and still isn't is because we didn't have any major tournaments until very recently. The more real games that happen, the more you'll see it and understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koen.1327 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Before the patch you had scrapper which was far superior in teamfights and chrono (gutted the same patch staff thief was buffed) which won every 1v1 in that meta anyway. Btw its not just condi clear on dodge but also perm weakness with an extra 10% dmg reduction and shadow portal so you cant even get decapped (staff thief is slow otherwise). This build should have no place in the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mortrialus.3062 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 > @"Grimjack.8130" said: > People saying staff thief isn't meta, yikes. Double Staff Thief is meta, and it has been since the changes. Staff Staff Daredevil is about as degenerate as it gets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 > @"Koen.1327" said: > Before the patch you had scrapper which was far superior in teamfights and chrono (gutted the same patch staff thief was buffed) which won every 1v1 in that meta anyway. > Btw its not just condi clear on dodge but also perm weakness with an extra 10% dmg reduction and shadow portal so you cant even get decapped (staff thief is slow otherwise). > This build should have no place in the game doesnt it have perma swiftness and vault for distance from time to time? wouldnt really call it slow tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 Staff thief absolutely wasn't the only reason for the win of mAT in NA. And Sindrener gives a good analysis on the game in EU. It is strong, and really dumb. But people will learn to play around it. €: And, yes, hopefully it gets nerfs. Like condi thief. Make d/p great again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azure The Heartless.3261 Posted October 28, 2019 Share Posted October 28, 2019 > @"Vicariuz.1605" said: > inb4 staff thief wins monthly owait it did LOL, inb4 staff thief is meta owait it is LOL, dont forget in-houses deciding if staff thief is allowed or not XD. > So, are we an inclusive set of devs who treat all degenerate gameplay and builds the same? Yes / No? That's insane, but if there's data there's data. gonna probably need to shave endurance gen on staff or put an ICD on it. > @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said: > We can quibble about semantics like "good build versus degenerate build", "viable versus meta", etc. But at the end of the day, does anyone want *any* build that is effectively perma-evades running around in *any* competitive mode? Think about it. This. perma-sustain that allows you to contest a point is bad for the game period. We were here with turret engies, bunker ventari revenants, etc. No matter your class you shouldnt have any combination of buttons that unconditionally removes counterplay/your need to react to and avoid your opponents key skills for any extended amount of time, especially if it lets you contest while you do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now