An Argument for the Return of Hard Mode

[FrigginPaco.4178]

Ok, so if not Hard Mode what suggestions are there to implement more challenging content more broadly. GW1 did have challenge missions with a leaderboard if I remember correctly. And, as I said before, it could simply be a new map per total Saga/Expansion that adds this. And frankly, it does need it's own rewards.

 

Otherwise, if it only gave our industry standard champ bag x10 or something, I'm not sure that would be incentive enough. I will remind people of the quotation attributed to Mike Z when addressing the fact that Season 4 was interpreted as easy by many players:

 

MZ: "We generally try and make the story content be approachable to the average player, because that’s why people are here and what they’re playing. Moving forward, we’re trying to give players who are looking for meaningful challenge a way to have that with the Icebrood Saga.

 

**The challenge is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output.** You can’t necessarily put a DPS check that the average player is going to be able to overcome without making the fight entirely trivialized for the hardcore. But we have some tricks up our sleeve that we’re going to be trying" -> https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

 

 

[Krzysztof.5973]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> Ok, so if not Hard Mode what suggestions are there to implement more challenging content more broadly. GW1 did have challenge missions with a leaderboard if I remember correctly. And, as I said before, it could simply be a new map per total Saga/Expansion that adds this. And frankly, it does need it's own rewards.

>

> Otherwise, if it only gave our industry standard champ bag x10 or something, I'm not sure that would be incentive enough. I will remind people of the quotation attributed to Mike Z when addressing the fact that Season 4 was interpreted as easy by many players:

>

> MZ: "We generally try and make the story content be approachable to the average player, because that’s why people are here and what they’re playing. Moving forward, we’re trying to give players who are looking for meaningful challenge a way to have that with the Icebrood Saga.

>

> **The challenge is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output.** You can’t necessarily put a DPS check that the average player is going to be able to overcome without making the fight entirely trivialized for the hardcore. But we have some tricks up our sleeve that we’re going to be trying" -> https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

>

>

 

Yes, you've got your answer why hard mode will not happen. Average so again, average - not talking here about bottom lite on the food chain. Playerbase is vastly casual and is not interested in challenges.

[Knighthonor.4061]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/72387/idea-rotating-open-world-nightmare-mode-mist-storm

 

 

[Xeno.1298]

There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Xeno.1298" said:

> There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

 

I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"Krzysztof.5973" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > **The challenge is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output.** You can’t necessarily put a DPS check that the average player is going to be able to overcome without making the fight entirely trivialized for the hardcore. But we have some tricks up our sleeve that we’re going to be trying" -> https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

> >

>

> Yes, you've got your answer why hard mode will not happen. Average so again, average - not talking here about bottom lite on the food chain. Playerbase is vastly casual and is not interested in challenges.

 

yeah, i was rather surprised at the huge disparity when i read that interview; my s/d weaver could easily break into top 5 in arcDPS just spamming 123 in fire/air attunement at map meta, and the top DPS arent that far off

 

i unsure how they came to that conclusion that it's 10x damage, my guess is they are just taking a sample of how much damage players done over an entire fight against a world boss or something, in that case then 10x dmg may make sense, since casuals just laid dead waiting for someone to ress them

 

which is what i think is one of the reasons why people dont bother trying to play better, there is 0 (ZERO) penalty being dead; a typical one is the VB matriarch, doesn't matter if you are dead, as long as you had landed a few hits you still get the Almagated Gemstone.

pretty much every time you'll see people don't even bother to dodge or do the mechanics properly, just stay dead making the break bar impossible to break for those put in the efforts to stay alive

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"Krzysztof.5973" said:

> > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > **The challenge is that the skill disparity between average players and hardcore players is extreme. We’re talking about ten times damage output.** You can’t necessarily put a DPS check that the average player is going to be able to overcome without making the fight entirely trivialized for the hardcore. But we have some tricks up our sleeve that we’re going to be trying" -> https://www.pcgamesn.com/guild-wars-2/pvp-raids-world-restructuring

> > >

> >

> > Yes, you've got your answer why hard mode will not happen. Average so again, average - not talking here about bottom lite on the food chain. Playerbase is vastly casual and is not interested in challenges.

>

> yeah, i was rather surprised at the huge disparity when i read that interview; my s/d weaver could easily break into top 5 in arcDPS just spamming 123 in fire/air attunement at map meta, and the top DPS arent that far off

>

> i unsure how they came to that conclusion that it's 10x damage, my guess is they are just taking a sample of how much damage players done over an entire fight against a world boss or something, in that case then 10x dmg may make sense, since casuals just laid dead waiting for someone to ress them

>

> which is what i think is one of the reasons why people dont bother trying to play better, there is 0 (ZERO) penalty being dead; a typical one is the VB matriarch, doesn't matter if you are dead, as long as you had landed a few hits you still get the Almagated Gemstone.

> pretty much every time you'll see people don't even bother to dodge or do the mechanics properly, just stay dead making the break bar impossible to break for those put in the efforts to stay alive

 

If anyone has the ability to measure player metrics on a large scale I'm sure Anet has the tools to do so reliably. But yes, there's a massive lack of tutorialization on the part of the game for instructions on how combat can become more complex - and more to your point, a gaping lack of consequences for dying in and out of story missions. Dodging is a godsend that this game can make shine incredibly well in every single game mode. But if people don't know, don't want to know, etc... it's rough. Like break bars, or Longbow 4 spamming rangers we all know we've experienced.

 

----------------------------

 

I don't buy the arguments that going back is a waste of time. They're still trying to find a way to implement LWS1 as mentioned in the same article I linked earlier. Obviously, there are monetary rewards to doing so, weighed against the resources needed to get it done. Surely. But the fundamental shift between GW1's business model and GW2's is the fact that they simply are products of their respective eras. HM was added after all of the base campaigns were added to GW1 and later to EotN, so that's a piece I will concede to some of you naysayers: the game was essentially done by the time it was added. So, by that precedent, it might be prudent to say if we saw HM come to GW2 it's basically curtains.

[Cronospere.8143]

> @"Menadena.7482" said:

> > @"Cronospere.8143" said:

> > > @"Menadena.7482" said:

> > > > @"Cronospere.8143" said:

> > > > > @"Krzysztof.5973" said:

> > > > > There is interest in this kind of content. Yes it would be optional. Yes more challenging content (actually challenging, not laughable raids difficulty) would offer better rewards. Problem is, it doesn't sell. They would have to put it in the gemstore in order to make money off of it. Casual grounds are highly profitable.

> > > >

> > > > I don't Agree.. hard mode in this case, introduces a complete new experience for all content they already delivered. And it can be done fairly easily (unless they have a strange code structure). If they introduce hard mode, people have tons of new hours of playtime, which they normally not spend. (lot of people are bored or dont do stuff). Playing players deliver money. Not all of them, but a certain % will invest in things they see in BL-store or or ingame.

> > > >

> > > > I think Hard mode is a good idea. It encourages to play missions together with friends and other players. If you make it hard enough. At the same time, it shouldnt be to hard so that people need to use meta builds..

> > >

> > > Let me guess, you are not a dev, right?

> >

> > So i can't comment on someones opinion?

> > No i'm not a developer, what point are you trying to make here?

>

> That non devs often say some change will be easy. Things non-devs think will be easy rarely are and things that actually are easy to implement seem like they are huge projects. Only the people that wrote part of the code have an idea how hard a given change is, and even then rarely can say such off the top of their head.

 

I agree with you. Although im not a dev. One of my main subjects in graduation was writing code structures both for various programs and games. I said "it can be done fairly easy". Its a relative opinion. It still requires many many hours of work. I dont disagree on that. I think they can use resources they already use or have in fractals, gw1 or raids or even pve open world.

[Wakani.1829]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> Also GW1 hardmode was dead, no one did it..

 

Horseshit. We were thousands and thousands of players who enjoyed HM in gw1.

 

Every Dungeon, Every Elite Area, if you popped into the corresponding outpost, you had 15+ districts full of people ready and wanting to go.

I get the sense that you didn't like it, and thats fine, noone blames you for being a casual. But dont attempt to take away from something people DO actually enjoy just because you dont.

[kratan.4619]

I stopped after the first paragraph, everytime someone wants something "more challenging" it seems to have a need to have something unique, titles, achievements, gear, etc. all so someone can run around and yell, "Look at me, look at how awesomely awesome I am at this game. I am much better than you scrubs.". If people really want a hrdmode for the challenge, the rewards should be the same.

[Turkeyspit.3965]

Why are you asking for things the developer cannot deliver? As I look at ANET post after ANET post, one common thread I keep seeing is that they regret they can't do more, but they simply don't have the resources.

 

If ANET appears to be struggling to get out regular content and updates (and imo, it does seem like this is a struggle), why would you think they could devote the resources to a hardmode that would only be utilized by a tiny portion of the player base?

[Stand The Wall.6987]

lol its funny reading assumptions about what the games player base would like to do, considering raids and fractals are difficult content and very popular as well.

[otto.5684]

In open world, you can always solo champions and content not meant to be soloed. And honestly, harder content in open world will only result in build adjustments. It is not really making the game "harder," except for newer players. And people already cry rivers about HoT content being hard and it is not...

 

It would be good for instanced content though.

[Dante.1508]

> @"Wakani.1829" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > Also GW1 hardmode was dead, no one did it..

>

> Horseshit. We were thousands and thousands of players who enjoyed HM in gw1.

>

> Every Dungeon, Every Elite Area, if you popped into the corresponding outpost, you had 15+ districts full of people ready and wanting to go.

> I get the sense that you didn't like it, and thats fine, noone blames you for being a casual. But dont attempt to take away from something people DO actually enjoy just because you dont.

 

No it wasn't i was there yes a small minority did it thousands doubtful but maybe, but 10x that didn't.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"kratan.4619" said:

> I stopped after the first paragraph, everytime someone wants something "more challenging" it seems to have a need to have something unique, titles, achievements, gear, etc. all so someone can run around and yell, "Look at me, look at how awesomely awesome I am at this game. I am much better than you scrubs.". If people really want a hrdmode for the challenge, the rewards should be the same.

 

How very open-minded and thorough of you to stop partway through.

 

It's not me personally wanting more AP or something. Although if you do something more difficult than other content, I do honestly hope you receive appropriate compensation for it. HM was the only place to receive Armbraces of Truth and the gems needed to make it. It was subsequently the only place you could get tormented weapons in the first game. It was the premier way to do farming for certain materials, and yes, offered more of a path towards GWAMM.

 

But what you consider posturing and peacocking, I and many others consider engaging with content and finally, getting rewarded for it. The reward structure for GW2 is very bad anyway, so the least that could be done is increase the space for reasons to engage with more of the game, not less. If everything rewarded you the same, people would just do the same thing. Ironically, back when, AB was broke, what did people do? Multiloot. They wanted more, and exploited to get it. I want to see something that is commensurate with the rewards it offers, and hopefully not be an exploit.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> Why are you asking for things the developer cannot deliver? As I look at ANET post after ANET post, one common thread I keep seeing is that they regret they can't do more, but they simply don't have the resources.

>

> If ANET appears to be struggling to get out regular content and updates (and imo, it does seem like this is a struggle), why would you think they could devote the resources to a hardmode that would only be utilized by a tiny portion of the player base?

 

Well for one thing, nowhere in this article do I say it needs to be added to the game ASAP or anything remotely like that. Even went out of my way in the previous post to say that it could be something they added sparingly in the future additions to the game. A map or two here and there, something like that, who cares, it's not something for an immediate turn out on the production line. I'm discussing an idea, and just like other ideas they've had to push back, I'm prepared for this not to be something immediate.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > Please keep in mind, just like GW1, it was a completely optional system.

>

> This is where your idea falls apart. There isn't much value added in making it harder AND making it optional. It just means most of the population will ignore it. Frankly, I would complain if Anet wasted their time adding a hard mode to old content that would be optional ... not only do they ignore most of the people that play this game, but it's not actually new content either. So even if a player DOES want harder content, they would have to go through the old story to do it. It's a bit of a 'so what' moment.

>

 

Ok so, raids, fractals, PvP, WvW, shoot even PvE (for those more competitive-minded) are all optional content depending on who's playing.

 

But fine, using the three game modes PvE, PvP, & WvW as a baseline, that still leaves large parts of the game that were added well beyond launch as "optional". And consider, do you think people do not change their play habits? Do you think they aren't curious? Do you think people do not *grow*? I went to HM after a long time of playing the regular game. I feel it's only natural to progress to something more difficult over time.

[Wakani.1829]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> No it wasn't i was there yes a small minority did it thousands doubtful but maybe, but 10x that didn't.

 

You're forgetting that gw1 had a larger playerbase than gw2 does. yes - it was litterally thousands, yes there were more who didnt, by your logic, lets remove all food that i dont personally like, even if you like it, because **Reasons**

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"kratan.4619" said:

> > I stopped after the first paragraph, everytime someone wants something "more challenging" it seems to have a need to have something unique, titles, achievements, gear, etc. all so someone can run around and yell, "Look at me, look at how awesomely awesome I am at this game. I am much better than you scrubs.". If people really want a hrdmode for the challenge, the rewards should be the same.

>

> How very open-minded and thorough of you to stop partway through.

>

> It's not me personally wanting more AP or something. Although if you do something more difficult than other content, I do honestly hope you receive appropriate compensation for it. HM was the only place to receive Armbraces of Truth and the gems needed to make it. It was subsequently the only place you could get tormented weapons in the first game. It was the premier way to do farming for certain materials, and yes, offered more of a path towards GWAMM.

>

> But what you consider posturing and peacocking, I and many others consider engaging with content and finally, getting rewarded for it. The reward structure for GW2 is very bad anyway, so the least that could be done is increase the space for reasons to engage with more of the game, not less. If everything rewarded you the same, people would just do the same thing. Ironically, back when, AB was broke, what did people do? Multiloot. They wanted more, and exploited to get it. I want to see something that is commensurate with the rewards it offers, and hopefully not be an exploit.

 

You can sell raids. The gw2 equivalent of gw1 torment runs, considering raids are the hardest content in gw2. Plenty of mystic coins for you.

[flog.3485]

Hard mode in Gw2 doesn’t make any sense. It only worked in Guild wars because everything was instanced and all the instanced content as far as PvE was accessible solo with Heroes.

 

Better ask for for more challenging meta events (with appropriate rewards), challenging fractals at T4 and challenging raids. With templates being released tomorrow, at this point there is no more reasons not to add more of these kind of content in the games’ departments where they previously released this type on content in the past.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"flog.3485" said:

> at this point there is no more reasons not to add more of these kind of content in the games’ departments where they previously released this type on content in the past.

Unless Anet metrics show that there is a very small percentage of the player base involved in such content. No one here knows either way. It would, however, be a reason.

 

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"aspirine.6852" said:

> >

> > Wut? Gw1 hardmode was the most I played since normal was too easy with powercreep. Gw1 vanquish was my favorite pastime. Same for my game mate.

>

> Population wise no it wasn't popular or it would have been added here already years ago.

 

You assume that ANet has not implemented HM in GW2 because of GW HM popularity. Even though that could be possible doesn't mean it is true. I certainly have not seen ANet claim that they are not going to put HM into GW2 because it wasn't popular in GW. There are other possible explanations for why ANet has not done so. One would be the "spreading the player-base" concern which ANet has expressed. This is a greater issue in a game (GW2) where open world content often requires many players, versus one (GW) in which the maximum players needed to run content was 8 (except the two Elite instances in Factions, where it was 12). Another reason would be the "scarce resources" issue. A third could be that adding damage and health to mobs (which was a significant aspect of GW HM) matters less in a game with invulnerability frames. This means that your argument cannot be assumed to be true, sorry.

 

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"Wakani.1829" said:

> >

> > Horseshit. We were thousands and thousands of players who enjoyed HM in gw1.

> >

> > Every Dungeon, Every Elite Area, if you popped into the corresponding outpost, you had 15+ districts full of people ready and wanting to go.

> > I get the sense that you didn't like it, and thats fine, noone blames you for being a casual. But dont attempt to take away from something people DO actually enjoy just because you dont.

>

> No it wasn't i was there yes a small minority did it thousands doubtful but maybe, but 10x that didn't.

 

Source? Clue: the only acceptable source for numbers utilizing an ANet product would be a statement by ANet.

[Trise.2865]

Use Masterwork instead of Ascended. Congratulations! you're in Hard Mode.

[Xeno.1298]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Xeno.1298" said:

> > There's already a hard mode, it's called Challenging Yourself. You can enable this mode by not wearing armor, or not using runes or sigils, or using only two specializations, or using a limited number of traits, or starting a new character and using only items they find, or limiting the number of skills you can use, or never using a heal skill, or using low-level gear, or... etc.

>

> I'd say that's more "Handicapping yourself" rather than challenging. If the game offers you all this stuff to use in order to execute combat why would you insist to remove it? It's one thing to admit the game has space for more difficult content, which I think most people would agree. It's another thing to patronize the idea by submitting a counter point that simply doesn't address the problem.

 

It's the same difference. It doesn't matter what the source of the challenge is, if challenge is what you actually want instead of just more rewards. There's nothing patronizing about pointing out currently viable options for what you consider a "problem", that really isn't. If you want the challenge to include other players, make a hardcore guild or the like and set whatever gameplay rules are desired, there's that issue solved. GW1 was a completely different game. In GW2 maps aren't all instanced, there are no henchmen/heroes, non-story instance maps can't be "cleared", resurrection works differently, etc., so expecting GW2 to offer something comparable to the GW1 hard mode experience is unlikely and would rob the core game of a lot of development resources.

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > @"FrigginPaco.4178" said:

> > > Please keep in mind, just like GW1, it was a completely optional system.

> >

> > This is where your idea falls apart. There isn't much value added in making it harder AND making it optional. It just means most of the population will ignore it. Frankly, I would complain if Anet wasted their time adding a hard mode to old content that would be optional ... not only do they ignore most of the people that play this game, but it's not actually new content either. So even if a player DOES want harder content, they would have to go through the old story to do it. It's a bit of a 'so what' moment.

> >

>

> Ok so, raids, fractals, PvP, WvW, shoot even PvE (for those more competitive-minded) are all optional content depending on who's playing.

>

> But fine, using the three game modes PvE, PvP, & WvW as a baseline, that still leaves large parts of the game that were added well beyond launch as "optional". And consider, do you think people do not change their play habits? Do you think they aren't curious? Do you think people do not *grow*? I went to HM after a long time of playing the regular game. I feel it's only natural to progress to something more difficult over time.

 

Sure optional at a different level that's not part of this discussion. Just like having coffee vs. tea for my morning breakfast is also options ... and not relevant to the discussion.

 

The fact is that the people in this game aren't going to 'grow' into hard content to the level that's significant enough to justify this idea. Even if they did, why would they want that hard content to be content they already did? That doesn't really make sense.

 

I mean, we already know people aren't fond of 'growing' into hard content ... as HoT demonstrated. It's not why they bought this game ... it's not why they keep playing it. Why would Anet do the same experiment again? Why do you think PoF was MUCH easier than HoT was? It shows your idea is based on a faulty premise ... that MAYBE people will grow into hard content. We know that's not true.