Core Power Mesmer Is Nasty Toxic Nonesense

[bravan.3876]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"bravan.3876" ye I know, I would leave power ambushes as are, i kinda wrote it as a quick note, also would reduce condid amage from autos.

> And made IH as a baseline, meaning that Cmirage doesnt HAVE to take it, it ahs it for free.

> Speed of Sand is sad excuse of a trait that shouldnt occupy a trait slot.

> What I suggest would lower.

> - Clone ambush damage by 80-95%

> - Clone auto damage by 80%+

> - Pistol 4 damage by 10-15%+ ( due to sharper img )

> - No more stealth ( stealth of 2-3s depending on skills no more 10s+ stealth kitten )

>

> What would be gained

> Condi shatter damage ( active playstyle )

> Condi damage on mesmer hits ( active playstyle )

> Extra grandmaster trait ( ofc EM should be reworked ) but other GM are preety bad but its still something ( you have to be melee to proc it for example )

> Extra damage on mesmer Autos and axe skills in general ( they hit like noodle on melee weapon ) again active playstyle.

>

> What should also be put somewhere is condi cleanse, there is seriously no reason for meta mesmer to have 1 or 2 condi clear and thats it.

>

 

Not baseline i mean minor trait, IH as minor trait, baseline would be too much of a gift. If you then have 80% lower base dmg on clone ambushes you can then think about grandmaster traits which buff clone ambsuhes in one or another way. More utility (longer effect duration or boonremove when clone ambsuh hits the target) as replacement for current IH grandmaster, more def like they heal you or remove condis from you when doing mirage cloak (replacement for current nerfed to death EM), more dmg (Power and Condi) as replacement for Dune Cloak. Speed of Sand can become baseline. This way you can adjust dmg and effects from clones in two ways: by their base dmg/ base effect duration without grandmaster trait and by how much value you wanna give the grandmaster trait for each kind of build. Now i rly have to go^^

[Asuran.5469]

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> Just want to make this post to really elaborate on quite exactly what attributes are stacking up here, to make this build so toxic:

>

> 1. **Nuclear damage output.** This is normally fine imo on glass cannon designed specs. But it begins to get out of control here for the following reasons.

> 2. **Too many instant cast pre-charged skills.** It can front load enough damage to drop any build instantly. Again, this is normally not that big of a deal in most situations, when a build provides tells so that it can be counter played. But this leads to the next reason of what makes this so toxic.

> 3. **Too much stealth uptime paired with their mobility.** Lately these Mesmers have enough stealth to approach you from blind spots in the map where you are unable to see them visually on the screen, or even their class icon on the mini map. Don't believe me? Watch that video that was posted. This means that you have no ability whatsoever, to counter play the Mesmer's position or to interpret where he is or where he is going. Now your survival vs. the Mesmer burst is entirely dependent upon raw reflex, for when it attacks you, and if you have some kind of an instant invuln or instant mobility stun break with an evade, such as Roll For Initiative. This takes us to the following point to be made, which is the deepest and most toxic part about all of this.

> 4. **There are no tells when a good Mesmer player is wielding this build.** Even middle tiered players can sort of "no tell" blow you up a fraction of a second with this build, but the good Mesmers out there, seriously instantly kill you by perfectly timing all of the instants & precharges, and landing them all simultaneously for a visual representation on-screen of seeing your health go from 100% to 0% instantly. There is no counter play to this. By the time any visual graphics appear or you hear any noises at all, you're already dead.

> 5. **Subsequently, it is important to compare Core Power Mesmer to other notorious 1HKO builds** -> Even Deadeyes & Soulbeasts provide warning of inc burst when a DE marks a target or a Soulbeast uses Sic Em. A player can see these things on their UI, as a warning that they are being focused. The Mesmer on the other hand, delivers no such warning. The DE & Soulbeast also must approach a general vicinity before engaging in stealth play. Players can see this happening, and are ready to engage the situation. They know the DE or Soulbeast is close, they are being marked or seeing Sic Em on UI, they know if they are being targeted. The stealth's are also short on DE & Soulbeast to where players can intuitively gauge how long the DE or Soulbeast will be in stealth and if he is about to land a burst or how far he could move during that short time. The Power Mesmer on the other hand, yeah reread the points made in 3. Furthermore, the DEs & Soulbeasts don't actually "1shot" anything. The damage may lay down quickly, you may see your health drop from 100% to 75% to 50% to 25% to 0% from a Rapid Fire that takes 2 and a half seconds to complete, or you may see a 100% to 50% o 0% with a Maul leading into Worldy Impact that takes roughly 2s to complete even with quickness. You may see your health drop from 100% to 25% from a Death's Judgement, and then a DE follows up with some other attack to finish the job, requiring a good 2s to complete. <- All of this as annoying as it is, requires like 2s at the minimum to actually do, which is allowing counter play. But the Mesmer? Nah, all that damage lands in the fraction of a millisecond right out of stealth, especially if a person has a good macro set. Even the approach of the DEs & the Soulbeasts are rather obvious and allow players to position themselves to engage them. But the Mesmer? Nah you can't see it or interpret where it is at all. The final point to be made is that: DEs and Soulbeasts are nailing people with projectiles, which can be LOSed. But the Mesmer? That's mostly all melee functioned & ground targeted damage that HIT THROUGH WALLS.

>

> I don't know what else to say. The implementation of this Core Power Mesmer lately, feels like I was eating at a nice dinner and enjoying my meal, then someone tossed a nasty leaky dirty diaper up on my table, and then I had to get up and leave. For real though. I've put up with a lot of bad metas in this game over the years, but there is something extra _bad feeling_ about this no-tell Mesmer stealth across the map and 1HKO you stuff. Like actual instant 1HKO. Not like DEs or Soulbeasts that just deal a lot of damage really fast. No, this is an actual quite literal "instant 1HKO right out of stealth"

 

It was always fine before. I think they gave it too much stealth now.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" ye I know, I would leave power ambushes as are, i kinda wrote it as a quick note, also would reduce condid amage from autos.

> > And made IH as a baseline, meaning that Cmirage doesnt HAVE to take it, it ahs it for free.

> > Speed of Sand is sad excuse of a trait that shouldnt occupy a trait slot.

> > What I suggest would lower.

> > - Clone ambush damage by 80-95%

> > - Clone auto damage by 80%+

> > - Pistol 4 damage by 10-15%+ ( due to sharper img )

> > - No more stealth ( stealth of 2-3s depending on skills no more 10s+ stealth kitten )

> >

> > What would be gained

> > Condi shatter damage ( active playstyle )

> > Condi damage on mesmer hits ( active playstyle )

> > Extra grandmaster trait ( ofc EM should be reworked ) but other GM are preety bad but its still something ( you have to be melee to proc it for example )

> > Extra damage on mesmer Autos and axe skills in general ( they hit like noodle on melee weapon ) again active playstyle.

> >

> > What should also be put somewhere is condi cleanse, there is seriously no reason for meta mesmer to have 1 or 2 condi clear and thats it.

> >

>

> Not baseline i mean minor trait, IH as minor trait, baseline would be too much of a gift. If you then have 80% lower base dmg on clone ambushes you can then think about grandmaster traits which buff clone ambsuhes in one or another way. More utility (longer effect duration or boonremove when clone ambsuh hits the target) as replacement for current IH grandmaster, more def like they heal you or remove condis from you when doing mirage cloak (replacement for current nerfed to death EM), more dmg (Power and Condi) as replacement for Dune Cloak. Speed of Sand can become baseline. This way you can adjust dmg and effects from clones in two ways: by their base dmg/ base effect duration without grandmaster trait and by how much value you wanna give the grandmaster trait for each kind of build. Now i rly have to go^^

 

ah yes yes yes, I ment merging Speed of Sand with the first "free" trait, and ahving IH take its place.

Then remove EM compleatly, its actually so bad that i would rather not have a trait at all then to use it.

-Mb make a trait that If you have X conditions, when mirage cloak ends, remove them all and kill all your clones ( Y CD )

- Or MB get a stack of trait every 3s, max 10 stacks. when mirage cloak ends remove 1 condition per clone you have, along with 1 stack. So you remove condis but you run out if this trait REALLY fast, expecially if you get bombed by 5-8 condis + you need clones for it to work.

Dune Cloak should straight up get a bleed effect on top, so its usable by both condi and power.

And introduce 3rd GM thats worth taking.

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Again, I see your point, but I just want to argue this for the fun of it.

 

> @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:

> I mean if you still aren't understanding what I'm saying here, please explain to me what the guy in the video, in that first 30s, what was he supposed to do to counter play that?

 


 

Stunbreak and dodge here. Immediately head for lower ground to break line of sight of mesmer with the bridge you were standing on so mantras cannot be spammed. Clones will take time to get to you and phantasms will miss. GS cannot shoot through bridge. There is nobody at mid, so mes will either disengage for mid (at which point you + their friends at far) or follow you (Also go to far, to drag mes away from point and get help/peels).

 

The Necro already kittened up by going to mid without life force and without a wurm planted to leave if he so desired that. , unaccompanied, mind you. They cant do that, at least not without taking spectral armor (which he didnt take.)

 

> Consider it was a 100% to immediate 0% situation against a better Mesmer, where there is seriously no reaction time. Even that slower Mesmer in the video is still a lightning fast kill, which provides little reaction time to begin with.

 

This is pretty insane yeah. To this date though, I have not seen a power mesmer player layer everything so perfectly that the stun doesnt give them away, or be able to perfectly mask The Prestige if I was paying attention.

 

> It's possible that some of the better players out there have the reflexes to actually slam a stun break and dodge roll out in the exact moment they see the health drop from 100% to 30%.

 

This isnt hard, that necro had a full second on that platform to see his window iced over and press a stun break/dodge. The only class that can stun you without direct physical contact is mesmer, so that situation means death is coming.

 

>There are times when I've had my head so deep in the game, that I could have escaped the burst in that video, but it requires this extra competitive mind frame that most players never really achieve. But when we are talking about 100% to 0%, I'm telling you my man, there is no reaction time. No player can escape that and neither could a computer AI bot with the fastest reflex times possible, because as soon as there is anything to read in the programming at all of an inc attack, you're already dead. I mean what is the guy supposed to do here? **Go into mid when he can't see any enemies and start dodge rolling into the air, using his blocks, burn through his CDs?**

 

No. Besides, that necro shouldnt have been at mid _at all_. he should have gone to far with the player that passed him, or to home. For the first bout necro needs to be babysit or arrive late to a point so it isnt the focus. Every other class in this game has at the very least a trait that gates damage, that would have allowed them to live vs this in particular, or a stunbreak that also functions as an evade. Necro is by far the most susceptible class to this burst.

 

 

> This is too much man.

 

I see why people could reach that conclusion, and I'm not going to claim that it shouldn't be shaved. I'm just not going to lean all the way into saying that it's too much, because as close to instant damage as I have seen core mesmers come, I have never seen one seamless, without at least an indication that you were going to explode (although it took me some time to learn what those indications were.)

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Azure The Heartless.3261"

you should watch some pro players from league highlights. you would be suprised what kind of reaction time some of them have.

As for bot thing, bot 100% would be able to dodge it, IF it was programed to do so and had no delays. Shatters share short cooldowns, and combo starts with f3 and ends with f1. so at the very least you have f3->f1 cd to look out for. It also has gs3 cast time that lasts 0,25s. But I would say that reactively dodging the combo that is done properly is not doable. But things to note.

 

1 It has to be from steath

2 It has to be in melee, even slight distance makes the combo easy to dodge, not only no stun but big flying sword :D

Immagine the wrold where necro just took 3 steps back on the bridge, mesmer would have to walk away in shame, or use another stealth, and try without mantra might stacks.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

>big flying sword :D

 

@"mortrialus.3062" cued me in on this, which is why I mentioned that the mes needs to basically hug you to get that big nuke damage. You can see mirror blade coming if they aren't right on you. And for their shatter to do big omegadamage, you cant be using skills, which means the stun has to hit you first.

 

See a stun = dodge.

See a sword = dodge.

See purple flames? count to 3, then dodge or prepare to stunbreak and dodge.

 

> Immagine the wrold where necro just took 3 steps back on the bridge, mesmer would have to walk away in shame, or use another stealth, and try without mantra might stacks.

 

I don't think it's -that- easy however.

 

Again, I just need to mention I in no way think this is -fun- to get nailed with if you're distracted. I am, however, convinced you can avoid it, at least for now. I am fine with it being shaved, as well; because the window for avoiding it is immensely small. But considering how glassy the mes is to do this, it kind of echoes back to a couple of other threads Ive seen where people get hit by big friggin numbers and then complain about it, and the defense for those threads is "every class can nuke if they give up all their defense."

I am totally fine with nukes compared to __the alternative.__

Just be careful with what you take off of it. Start with Mantra of Pain since free damage is stupid, then work from there. Don't put __the alternative__ meta back into rotation.

 

Just keep in mind., every class can nuke if they spec for it. as long as there's an indication that HP-erasing damage is going to hit you, I will gladly take that over bunker meta.

My opinion is very different if there is an absence of an indication, but I have yet to see that.

I'm also a little bitter that I feel compelled to argue this while people complain about DJ hitting them like a truck even though it puts a big light over your head and dazes you before that happens but whatever.

[Shao.7236]

Can we just give Mirror Blade a reveal upon channeling is done or in the middle of it so we can move on with that eternal topic. It's strong and really annoying, but it's far from overpowered when you know it exists in the opposite team.

 

Like coming back from Wifi, I know how damn annoying the delay is even if you can "just dodge". Giving that reveal would allow people a little more time to react which is all this really needs. I love the concept of this ambush and one shotting, just not the factors like lag and the inconsistent visuals the game has seizure with sometimes.

 

Daze does let people evade, the full Stun would reveal them before they started. Mirror Blade with said additional reveal makes it an equal functionality that doesn't leave people dead right away. It's all good.

 

The next things that would need reveal mid cast is stuff like Kill Shot or Prime Light Beam.

 

My general rule of thumb would be that Unblockable/High Damage/Powerful CC's skills have some form of reveal near their completion so that people can have a chance to react. Most Thief skills would actually benefit better from Revealed Training if Stealth Attacks were to have such mechanic, it's also making the profession less obnoxious to deal with.

 

Not saying everything should be like that, stuff like Maul and such, but definitely make Stealth less of a crutch and favor reactionary gameplay more.

[mortrialus.3062]

I have been summoned.

 

I'd personally like to see Berserker's Amulet be removed in SPvP. It either is a noob trap that leads to bad play or it enables dumb toxic stuff like One Shot mesmer and Sic Em Sniper.

 

I'd also like to see Mantra of Pain lose it's might stacks. That's probably the best immediate change we can make right now.

 

And I'd also like it to become a ticking time bomb mechanic similar to Pulminory Impact. A mesmer casts mantra of Pain, the target and up to 4 other enemies near the target start to glow for a few seconds, you can see Mantra of Pain appear on your status bar, and 2 seconds later that's when the attack and damage pulse happens. Something to nerf Power Mesmer's capacity to layer 8 different damage pulses in a fraction of a second gets decoupled and forcibly spread out over time.

 

That's what I'd do with the skill. Keeps the flavor of big damage, and even if it's instant cast there's still time for an opponent to react defensively.

 

Maybe trim a bounce off of Mirror Blade.

 

To be honest though, I think it might be time to directly nerf Mind Wrack. If all you have is one clone, Mind Wrack can still do 7k-12k damage with just a one clone shatter if you've just readied the mantra, have the 12 stacks of might as long as you're in melee range. It might be time to do something like reduce the damage of Mindwrack, maybe reduce the cooldown so that it's able to provide more consistent DPS. My impression of it was that it was always supposed to be a sort of execution mechanic. It'd take time to set up three clones in a fight or at least in the early design stages of the game that was assumed. So after 12 seconds of combat you'd have set up your clones and then you'd go in for the kill with execute. But right now it's just being used to immediately rush down players in under a second.

 

This is what a power burst can look like.

 


 

I get that it's a target dummy but It has 18,140 health and 2,322 armor. For comparison a Rifle Holosmith will have 16,282 Health and 2,625 Armor. Still a 12.5k one clone Mind Wrack.

 

The only advice I can give to people is to play with the game audio on. Mantra of Distraction has a very noticeable sound and it's typically the first thing to land in the burst. And scientifically you react to audio stimuli much faster than you do with visual stimuli. Even when I'm jumped and I didn't have any idea the mesmer was there I can typically avoid the burst pretty well. It might help you out.

[kraai.7265]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years

 

because new players this days don't even care about learning, getting better, etc

they think they should be able to kill anyone with any build and minimal effort or without even thinking what they are doing, so everything that requires skill or kills them "easily" (is not easy at all to land a perfect burst) should be nerfed to the ground

there was a post of a guy playing with mesmer trying to reach plat just to show how mantras are "so op" guess what, he gave up...

theres a reason why most pro players never complain about mesmers anymore, since most condi builds were nerfed to the ground

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years

 

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> Regarding:

>

>

>

> Lmao that's really funny

>

> Tbh getting stunned would have made me IMMEDATELY press plague signet and dodge off that roof though, regarding first burst. There was a full second before that burst hit to do that.

>

> Def agree that the video highlights just how little response time there is, though. That poor focused necro.

>

> @"Leonidrex.5649" , thoughts on vid?

> I'm curious.

 

 

Here is the video from the other perspective.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> Can we just give Mirror Blade a reveal upon channeling is done or in the middle of it so we can move on with that eternal topic. It's strong and really annoying, but it's far from overpowered when you know it exists in the opposite team.

>

> Like coming back from Wifi, I know how kitten annoying the delay is even if you can "just dodge". Giving that reveal would allow people a little more time to react which is all this really needs. I love the concept of this ambush and one shotting, just not the factors like lag and the inconsistent visuals the game has seizure with sometimes.

>

> Daze does let people evade, the full Stun would reveal them before they started. Mirror Blade with said additional reveal makes it an equal functionality that doesn't leave people dead right away. It's all good.

>

> The next things that would need reveal mid cast is stuff like Kill Shot or Prime Light Beam.

>

> My general rule of thumb would be that Unblockable/High Damage/Powerful CC's skills have some form of reveal near their completion so that people can have a chance to react. Most Thief skills would actually benefit better from Revealed Training if Stealth Attacks were to have such mechanic, it's also making the profession less obnoxious to deal with.

>

> Not saying everything should be like that, stuff like Maul and such, but definitely make Stealth less of a crutch and favor reactionary gameplay more.

 

adding reveal upon channeling gs2 would make this build unplayable.

Heck I was hit by stealthed scrapper by grenade barrage for 16,8k last patch, so its clearly possible with other classes too.

[Shao.7236]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > Can we just give Mirror Blade a reveal upon channeling is done or in the middle of it so we can move on with that eternal topic. It's strong and really annoying, but it's far from overpowered when you know it exists in the opposite team.

> >

> > Like coming back from Wifi, I know how kitten annoying the delay is even if you can "just dodge". Giving that reveal would allow people a little more time to react which is all this really needs. I love the concept of this ambush and one shotting, just not the factors like lag and the inconsistent visuals the game has seizure with sometimes.

> >

> > Daze does let people evade, the full Stun would reveal them before they started. Mirror Blade with said additional reveal makes it an equal functionality that doesn't leave people dead right away. It's all good.

> >

> > The next things that would need reveal mid cast is stuff like Kill Shot or Prime Light Beam.

> >

> > My general rule of thumb would be that Unblockable/High Damage/Powerful CC's skills have some form of reveal near their completion so that people can have a chance to react. Most Thief skills would actually benefit better from Revealed Training if Stealth Attacks were to have such mechanic, it's also making the profession less obnoxious to deal with.

> >

> > Not saying everything should be like that, stuff like Maul and such, but definitely make Stealth less of a crutch and favor reactionary gameplay more.

>

> adding reveal upon channeling gs2 would make this build unplayable.

> Heck I was hit by stealthed scrapper by grenade barrage for 16,8k last patch, so its clearly possible with other classes too.

 

At the end of channel or a little before it ends was my suggestion. Not like Death Judgement on DE. That's just too much I agree, but all know that's the culprit to the burst mostly. There's other alternatives but the clone generation is what makes it what it is.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > Can we just give Mirror Blade a reveal upon channeling is done or in the middle of it so we can move on with that eternal topic. It's strong and really annoying, but it's far from overpowered when you know it exists in the opposite team.

> > >

> > > Like coming back from Wifi, I know how kitten annoying the delay is even if you can "just dodge". Giving that reveal would allow people a little more time to react which is all this really needs. I love the concept of this ambush and one shotting, just not the factors like lag and the inconsistent visuals the game has seizure with sometimes.

> > >

> > > Daze does let people evade, the full Stun would reveal them before they started. Mirror Blade with said additional reveal makes it an equal functionality that doesn't leave people dead right away. It's all good.

> > >

> > > The next things that would need reveal mid cast is stuff like Kill Shot or Prime Light Beam.

> > >

> > > My general rule of thumb would be that Unblockable/High Damage/Powerful CC's skills have some form of reveal near their completion so that people can have a chance to react. Most Thief skills would actually benefit better from Revealed Training if Stealth Attacks were to have such mechanic, it's also making the profession less obnoxious to deal with.

> > >

> > > Not saying everything should be like that, stuff like Maul and such, but definitely make Stealth less of a crutch and favor reactionary gameplay more.

> >

> > adding reveal upon channeling gs2 would make this build unplayable.

> > Heck I was hit by stealthed scrapper by grenade barrage for 16,8k last patch, so its clearly possible with other classes too.

>

> At the end of channel or a little before it ends was my suggestion. Not like Death Judgement on DE. That's just too much I agree, but all know that's the culprit to the burst mostly. There's other alternatives but the clone generation is what makes it what it is.

 

mate, this burst has 2 options.

1 it lands.

2 it doesnt land.

any player with a brain will dodge this burst 100% of the time if given extra 0,2s to react. making it compleatly unplayable.

It doesnt go from Strong to medicore or to weak, it goes to compleate trash never to be used again.

[bravan.3876]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> I have been summoned.

>

> I'd personally like to see Berserker's Amulet be removed in SPvP. It either is a noob trap that leads to bad play or it enables dumb toxic stuff like One Shot mesmer and Sic Em Sniper.

>

> I'd also like to see Mantra of Pain lose it's might stacks. That's probably the best immediate change we can make right now.

>

> And I'd also like it to become a ticking time bomb mechanic similar to Pulminory Impact. A mesmer casts mantra of Pain, the target and up to 4 other enemies near the target start to glow for a few seconds, you can see Mantra of Pain appear on your status bar, and 2 seconds later that's when the attack and damage pulse happens. Something to nerf Power Mesmer's capacity to layer 8 different damage pulses in a fraction of a second gets decoupled and forcibly spread out over time.

>

> That's what I'd do with the skill. Keeps the flavor of big damage, and even if it's instant cast there's still time for an opponent to react defensively.

>

> Maybe trim a bounce off of Mirror Blade.

>

> To be honest though, I think it might be time to directly nerf Mind Wrack. If all you have is one clone, Mind Wrack can still do 7k-12k damage with just a one clone shatter if you've just readied the mantra, have the 12 stacks of might as long as you're in melee range. It might be time to do something like reduce the damage of Mindwrack, maybe reduce the cooldown so that it's able to provide more consistent DPS. My impression of it was that it was always supposed to be a sort of execution mechanic. It'd take time to set up three clones in a fight or at least in the early design stages of the game that was assumed. So after 12 seconds of combat you'd have set up your clones and then you'd go in for the kill with execute. But right now it's just being used to immediately rush down players in under a second.

>

> This is what a power burst can look like.

>

> 

>

> I get that it's a target dummy but It has 18,140 health and 2,322 armor. For comparison a Rifle Holosmith will have 16,282 Health and 2,625 Armor. Still a 12.5k one clone Mind Wrack.

>

> The only advice I can give to people is to play with the game audio on. Mantra of Distraction has a very noticeable sound and it's typically the first thing to land in the burst. And scientifically you react to audio stimuli much faster than you do with visual stimuli. Even when I'm jumped and I didn't have any idea the mesmer was there I can typically avoid the burst pretty well. It might help you out.

 

MW hits like that because of the passive dmg multiplier, mostly Superiority Complex. A MW on the usual Powermirage build does 2-3k (per clone, when having 1 clone to shatter, even with high amount of might and vuln up from gs ambushes) what is completely fine. Just remove passive dmg multiplier from traits and rework them into something more active, like Deceptive Evasion what is way more active, adds deepness into dodgemanagement and is more skilled to use than SC. Leave passive dmg multiplier to Sigils and Runes only so they cannot be stacked with several traits into hell.

 

I guess you mean MoP? MoD doesn't get used in the PU oneshot build because the oneshot is way more save by using the stun from f3 instead a daze everyone can just dodge with.

 

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"bravan.3876" ye I know, I would leave power ambushes as are, i kinda wrote it as a quick note, also would reduce condid amage from autos.

> > > And made IH as a baseline, meaning that Cmirage doesnt HAVE to take it, it ahs it for free.

> > > Speed of Sand is sad excuse of a trait that shouldnt occupy a trait slot.

> > > What I suggest would lower.

> > > - Clone ambush damage by 80-95%

> > > - Clone auto damage by 80%+

> > > - Pistol 4 damage by 10-15%+ ( due to sharper img )

> > > - No more stealth ( stealth of 2-3s depending on skills no more 10s+ stealth kitten )

> > >

> > > What would be gained

> > > Condi shatter damage ( active playstyle )

> > > Condi damage on mesmer hits ( active playstyle )

> > > Extra grandmaster trait ( ofc EM should be reworked ) but other GM are preety bad but its still something ( you have to be melee to proc it for example )

> > > Extra damage on mesmer Autos and axe skills in general ( they hit like noodle on melee weapon ) again active playstyle.

> > >

> > > What should also be put somewhere is condi cleanse, there is seriously no reason for meta mesmer to have 1 or 2 condi clear and thats it.

> > >

> >

> > Not baseline i mean minor trait, IH as minor trait, baseline would be too much of a gift. If you then have 80% lower base dmg on clone ambushes you can then think about grandmaster traits which buff clone ambsuhes in one or another way. More utility (longer effect duration or boonremove when clone ambsuh hits the target) as replacement for current IH grandmaster, more def like they heal you or remove condis from you when doing mirage cloak (replacement for current nerfed to death EM), more dmg (Power and Condi) as replacement for Dune Cloak. Speed of Sand can become baseline. This way you can adjust dmg and effects from clones in two ways: by their base dmg/ base effect duration without grandmaster trait and by how much value you wanna give the grandmaster trait for each kind of build. Now i rly have to go^^

>

> ah yes yes yes, I ment merging Speed of Sand with the first "free" trait, and ahving IH take its place.

> Then remove EM compleatly, its actually so bad that i would rather not have a trait at all then to use it.

> -Mb make a trait that If you have X conditions, when mirage cloak ends, remove them all and kill all your clones ( Y CD )

> - Or MB get a stack of trait every 3s, max 10 stacks. when mirage cloak ends remove 1 condition per clone you have, along with 1 stack. So you remove condis but you run out if this trait REALLY fast, expecially if you get bombed by 5-8 condis + you need clones for it to work.

> Dune Cloak should straight up get a bleed effect on top, so its usable by both condi and power.

> And introduce 3rd GM thats worth taking.

>

 

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" ye I know, I would leave power ambushes as are, i kinda wrote it as a quick note, also would reduce condid amage from autos.

> > And made IH as a baseline, meaning that Cmirage doesnt HAVE to take it, it ahs it for free.

> > Speed of Sand is sad excuse of a trait that shouldnt occupy a trait slot.

> > What I suggest would lower.

> > - Clone ambush damage by 80-95%

> > - Clone auto damage by 80%+

> > - Pistol 4 damage by 10-15%+ ( due to sharper img )

> > - No more stealth ( stealth of 2-3s depending on skills no more 10s+ stealth kitten )

> >

> > What would be gained

> > Condi shatter damage ( active playstyle )

> > Condi damage on mesmer hits ( active playstyle )

> > Extra grandmaster trait ( ofc EM should be reworked ) but other GM are preety bad but its still something ( you have to be melee to proc it for example )

> > Extra damage on mesmer Autos and axe skills in general ( they hit like noodle on melee weapon ) again active playstyle.

> >

> > What should also be put somewhere is condi cleanse, there is seriously no reason for meta mesmer to have 1 or 2 condi clear and thats it.

> >

>

> IH becomes minor trait. If you then have 80% lower base dmg on clone ambushes you can then think about grandmaster traits which buff clone ambsuhes in one or another way. More utility (longer effect duration or boonremove when clone ambsuh hits the target) as replacement for current IH grandmaster, more def like they heal you or remove condis from you when doing mirage cloak (replacement for current nerfed to death EM), more dmg (Power and Condi) as replacement for Dune Cloak. Speed of Sand can become baseline. This way you can adjust dmg and effects from clones in two ways: by their base dmg/ base effect duration without grandmaster trait and by how much value you wanna give the grandmaster trait for each kind of build. Now i rly have to go^^

 

Means the new 3 grandmaster traits (and IH as minor trait) would be:

 

1. Dune Cloak: Clone ambush skills do x% more power and x% more condi dmg with their ambush attacks

2. Evasive Mirror: Clones heal the Mesmer for x amount of HP or remove a condition from the Mesmer when they perform Mirage Cloak. (If you just remove the stunbreak and exhaution one condiremove per dodge isn't rewarding enough, but when you make 2 condis removed per dodge it is a little bit too much, when we make it clone dependent it is something the Mesmer can work with to get an higher amount of condiremove or to emergency remove a single but big stack, that adds deepness into dodgemanagement)

3. Not beyond the horizon of 99,9 of the playerbase trait: The effects (like daze, blind, slow whatever effects you would need to add to condi ambushes for that they lose most of their dmg) have a X% longer duration or: Clones remove a boon from targets they hit with their ambush skill (for channelskills with multiple hits on same target: only the first hit would remove a boon, if that hit gets dodged,blinded or fails for other reasons it doesn't remove the boon, also when the ambush hits the target with the second hit).

 

Something like that.

[Grimjack.8130]

> @"LolLookAtMyAP.8394" said:

> Core Power Mesmer is absolutely disgusting, the Chaos buffs (superspeed...) really made this a nuisance.

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years

>

> Same thing happened with Fire Weaver, a build that was never really discovered until months after the Fire Aura condi cleanse trait was introduced.

 

No, prenerf Boonbeast would just kill it 1v1, so it wasn't viable.

[Shao.7236]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > > Can we just give Mirror Blade a reveal upon channeling is done or in the middle of it so we can move on with that eternal topic. It's strong and really annoying, but it's far from overpowered when you know it exists in the opposite team.

> > > >

> > > > Like coming back from Wifi, I know how kitten annoying the delay is even if you can "just dodge". Giving that reveal would allow people a little more time to react which is all this really needs. I love the concept of this ambush and one shotting, just not the factors like lag and the inconsistent visuals the game has seizure with sometimes.

> > > >

> > > > Daze does let people evade, the full Stun would reveal them before they started. Mirror Blade with said additional reveal makes it an equal functionality that doesn't leave people dead right away. It's all good.

> > > >

> > > > The next things that would need reveal mid cast is stuff like Kill Shot or Prime Light Beam.

> > > >

> > > > My general rule of thumb would be that Unblockable/High Damage/Powerful CC's skills have some form of reveal near their completion so that people can have a chance to react. Most Thief skills would actually benefit better from Revealed Training if Stealth Attacks were to have such mechanic, it's also making the profession less obnoxious to deal with.

> > > >

> > > > Not saying everything should be like that, stuff like Maul and such, but definitely make Stealth less of a crutch and favor reactionary gameplay more.

> > >

> > > adding reveal upon channeling gs2 would make this build unplayable.

> > > Heck I was hit by stealthed scrapper by grenade barrage for 16,8k last patch, so its clearly possible with other classes too.

> >

> > At the end of channel or a little before it ends was my suggestion. Not like Death Judgement on DE. That's just too much I agree, but all know that's the culprit to the burst mostly. There's other alternatives but the clone generation is what makes it what it is.

>

> mate, this burst has 2 options.

> 1 it lands.

> 2 it doesnt land.

> any player with a brain will dodge this burst 100% of the time if given extra 0,2s to react. making it compleatly unplayable.

> It doesnt go from Strong to medicore or to weak, it goes to compleate trash never to be used again.

 

Competent players already dodge it, doesn't matter what you're going to do for it. This build should be exclusively 1+ and not something that can rack up free kills by itself anyway. Why do you care so much to 100-0 when there's a LOT of other options available with the same build, got cheesy obsession or something?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"mortrialus.3062" nerf mind wrack, 12k dmg with 1 clone, right?

well here is a thing.

Target has 19 vuln stacks.

Mental anguish is used.

Both hits stun.

Target doesnt have protection.

Superiority Complex procs due to stun.

Egoism procs too.

Berserker amulet + scholar runes.

Immagine playing whatever entitled people call "skilled power mesmer build"

1 You dont have anguish. -20% damage.

2 Since you dont cheese stealth, target has protection. -33% damage

3 Egoism is not used. -5% damage

4 Different ammy/rune -5% flat modif - 600 stats lets say 20% damage.

5 no more rune of savagery -3% damage

 

12k x 0,8 x 0,66 x 0,95 x 0,95 x 0,8 x 0,97 = 4470 damage

Now here is the thing, If you apply 19 stack of vulnerability, Stun your oponent, And land double crit with mind wrack it will deal 4470 damage in a duel.

How do you want to nerf it? Becouse thats the damage holo deals with basic auto in holo forge.

If people want this build gone remove MoP from the game and boom, fixed.

But for fucks sake give us some good utilities becouse you know something is wrong when class uses shit like decoy.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"Shao.7236" said:

> > > > > Can we just give Mirror Blade a reveal upon channeling is done or in the middle of it so we can move on with that eternal topic. It's strong and really annoying, but it's far from overpowered when you know it exists in the opposite team.

> > > > >

> > > > > Like coming back from Wifi, I know how kitten annoying the delay is even if you can "just dodge". Giving that reveal would allow people a little more time to react which is all this really needs. I love the concept of this ambush and one shotting, just not the factors like lag and the inconsistent visuals the game has seizure with sometimes.

> > > > >

> > > > > Daze does let people evade, the full Stun would reveal them before they started. Mirror Blade with said additional reveal makes it an equal functionality that doesn't leave people dead right away. It's all good.

> > > > >

> > > > > The next things that would need reveal mid cast is stuff like Kill Shot or Prime Light Beam.

> > > > >

> > > > > My general rule of thumb would be that Unblockable/High Damage/Powerful CC's skills have some form of reveal near their completion so that people can have a chance to react. Most Thief skills would actually benefit better from Revealed Training if Stealth Attacks were to have such mechanic, it's also making the profession less obnoxious to deal with.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not saying everything should be like that, stuff like Maul and such, but definitely make Stealth less of a crutch and favor reactionary gameplay more.

> > > >

> > > > adding reveal upon channeling gs2 would make this build unplayable.

> > > > Heck I was hit by stealthed scrapper by grenade barrage for 16,8k last patch, so its clearly possible with other classes too.

> > >

> > > At the end of channel or a little before it ends was my suggestion. Not like Death Judgement on DE. That's just too much I agree, but all know that's the culprit to the burst mostly. There's other alternatives but the clone generation is what makes it what it is.

> >

> > mate, this burst has 2 options.

> > 1 it lands.

> > 2 it doesnt land.

> > any player with a brain will dodge this burst 100% of the time if given extra 0,2s to react. making it compleatly unplayable.

> > It doesnt go from Strong to medicore or to weak, it goes to compleate trash never to be used again.

>

> Competent players already dodge it, doesn't matter what you're going to do for it. This build should be exclusively 1+ and not something that can rack up free kills by itself anyway. Why do you care so much to 100-0 when there's a LOT of other options available with the same build, got cheesy obsession or something?

 

I dont like touching things when there is nothing to touch.But saying it never booms good players is wrong.

Played against sind like 1 hour ago and im preety sure his duo warrior wasnt bad player and yet he got yeeted from 90%->0%

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Hmm, couldn't they always do this? I dont get why people complain at stuff that's been on/off for years

>

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Regarding:

> >

> >

> >

> > Lmao that's really funny

> >

> > Tbh getting stunned would have made me IMMEDATELY press plague signet and dodge off that roof though, regarding first burst. There was a full second before that burst hit to do that.

> >

> > Def agree that the video highlights just how little response time there is, though. That poor focused necro.

> >

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" , thoughts on vid?

> > I'm curious.

>

>

>

> Here is the video from the other perspective.

 

So basically the non mes team was suffering and the mes team was playing some stupid minigame with a handicap to boot.

 

Disgusting.

 

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> My opinion is very different if there is an absence of an indication, but I have yet to see that.

 

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" Well I'll be damned, you're right. There's a nontelegraphed at 1:57. No stun, nothing, just straight HP loss. That is an issue.

[ZDragon.3046]

Welp i knew this was coming when i saw serious yet good players saying that it was problem 2 nights ago. This will most certainly be the next thing thats gonna get hit along side firebrand and possibly weaver. This kind of damage and multi cast to trigger this level of damage in such short time frames is generally not ok.

And to be real its the multi casting Mirror blade having a cast time while almost everything else in the combo does not until weapon swap to sword which at that point the person is already dead. even with over 20k hp. Im all for power burst being raw and nasty but this is just horrid. You should not be able to do this kind of damage and not see it coming.

 

Incoming cast times to shatters and mantra actives to prevent this insane level of multi casting.

 

Realistically this is just as bad as rampage cc chain to win and ranger sickem burst form out of nowhere mesmers should not be surprised when this gets gutted from the game. Regardless of what level of competitive play its used in.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"mortrialus.3062" nerf mind wrack, 12k dmg with 1 clone, right?

> well here is a thing.

> Target has 19 vuln stacks.

> Mental anguish is used.

> Both hits stun.

> Target doesnt have protection.

> Superiority Complex procs due to stun.

> Egoism procs too.

> Berserker amulet + scholar runes.

> Immagine playing whatever entitled people call "skilled power mesmer build"

> 1 You dont have anguish. -20% damage.

> 2 Since you dont cheese stealth, target has protection. -33% damage

> 3 Egoism is not used. -5% damage

> 4 Different ammy/rune -5% flat modif - 600 stats lets say 20% damage.

> 5 no more rune of savagery -3% damage

>

> 12k x 0,8 x 0,66 x 0,95 x 0,95 x 0,8 x 0,97 = 4470 damage

> Now here is the thing, If you apply 19 stack of vulnerability, Stun your oponent, And land double crit with mind wrack it will deal 4470 damage in a duel.

> How do you want to nerf it? Becouse thats the damage holo deals with basic auto in holo forge.

> If people want this build gone remove MoP from the game and boom, fixed.

> But for kitten sake give us some good utilities becouse you know something is wrong when class uses kitten like decoy.

 

I know how power greatsword works I've played it and condition mesmer for years at this point.

 

See I don't mind the damage modifiers like Superiority Complex and Mental Anguish because I'm not opposed to mesmers hitting hard. I don't mind them being an exceptionally bursty spec that can rushdown players in a handful of seconds. I simply dislike how Power and Greatsword always basically abused halfbaked 2012 design ideas for GW2's professions and combat system to overlap 7 pulses of seriously threatening damage in under fraction of a second.

 

Decoy is and has always been an excellent utility skill. People have gravitated to it over Mantra of Distraction because of the Line of Sight requirement on mantra meaning one of it's best uses, distracting an opponent who has jumped you from behind, is no longer a thing. And also Stunbreak, 4.5 seconds of stealth traited. It's genuinely GREAT traited.

[Burnfall.9573]

**+1**

 

Using Toxicity to fix Toxicity only creates more Toxicity.

 

The endless need for more Toxicity, when will it end?

 

**Why not just put an end to to the Toxic Professions and redesign them instead of finding other ways to keep them Toxic?**

[viquing.8254]

Omg, this is really going in a "let's have more random nerf and dead trait" with some of "suggestions" in this post because 80% are pure whine or nerf suggestions with no backend.

Ok then, let admit this build can hurt some people, then what to change ?

 

Just for history, this build received 3 major changes past years :

1) Mass invis with a lower CD. Which mean better stealth duration.

2) Mantra of Pain rework. Which mean better damage.

3) Superspeed on manipulation. Which mean better mobility. **+ the fact that before it was reflect, which mean less overall reveal from random projectile reflect**.

4) In a less impactfull way, the phantasms rework.

 

Then :

* About the nerf PU suggestion, I already discuss it with @"bravan.3876" and I don't think it will resolve anything : even with no PU, you will still get bursted from stealth. Mean as long as he didn't provide what will replace it, it will just end as a dead trait like CI and Lost time whereas it's not the problem in this case (imagine for example deleting a third of mesmer gameplay by removing "on dead trait" because of 2 traits synergy cough cough...).

* About GS nerfs : compare it to other class weapon with same gear and looking at CD, animation, output, there isn't any problem with GS skills, they should even buff GS 5 damage...

* About shatter nerf : in every other situation, F1 is a skill who need a setup => pop clones, moves of clone. It is so unreliable that you can only use this in melee otherwise it will fail. Moreover it will impact every mesmer build so it's not a solution too.

* About nerfing the manipulation superspeed : I'm against because for the moment it's the only trait who can make core build usable in a PvP context. **But** It can be moved to compete with PU = survival with stealth or with superspeed. (choice.)

 

So the possibilities are :

* Rework MoP : easy solution are might removal as suggered. Or make it back to 3 charges with less damage per charges so that each charge damage will does less damage = less burst + less might uptime as you will have more delay between casts. You can also make MoP give might only on teamate, not on the mesmer (teamplay cough cough...).

* Delete Egotism : lazy design flast % damage trait who contribute to burst. (glamour haven't a trait since a long time now for example, cough cough ...).

* Swap traits to disallow having a one way stacking modifier : Having to choose between mental anguish or superiority complex by putting them on the same column when target is disabled for example : lissed dps with superiority complex or burst with mental anguish. (choice.)

* undo mass invis buff : it was already the only usable ulti. instead do something about moa and time warp please.

 

It's just some suggestions but looking at the root of what changed thoses past years, what will not destroy build diversity neither traits instead of just seeing 100k nerf post who will end up with random bad nerfs...

Btw I didn't consider PU core as OP but if we can not go in all directions please because reading some post here make me think some guys probably never play mesmers as usual and will follow random nerfs suggestions.

 

[bravan.3876]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> Omg, this is really going in a "let's have more random nerf and dead trait" with some of "suggestions" in this post because 80% are pure whine or nerf suggestions with no backend.

> Ok then, let admit this build can hurt some people, then what to change ?

>

> Just for history, this build received 3 major changes past years :

> 1) Mass invis with a lower CD. Which mean better stealth duration.

> 2) Mantra of Pain rework. Which mean better damage.

> 3) Superspeed on manipulation. Which mean better mobility. **+ the fact that before it was reflect, which mean less overall reveal from random projectile reflect**.

> 4) In a less impactfull way, the phantasms rework.

>

> Then :

> * About the nerf PU suggestion, I already discuss it with @"bravan.3876" and I don't think it will resolve anything : even with no PU, you will still get bursted from stealth. Mean as long as he didn't provide what will replace it, it will just end as a dead trait like CI and Lost time whereas it's not the problem in this case (imagine for example deleting a third of mesmer gameplay by removing "on dead trait" because of 2 traits synergy cough cough...).

> * About GS nerfs : compare it to other class weapon with same gear and looking at CD, animation, output, there isn't any problem with GS skills, they should even buff GS 5 damage...

> * About shatter nerf : in every other situation, F1 is a skill who need a setup => pop clones, moves of clone. It is so unreliable that you can only use this in melee otherwise it will fail. Moreover it will impact every mesmer build so it's not a solution too.

> * About nerfing the manipulation superspeed : I'm against because for the moment it's the only trait who can make core build usable in a PvP context. **But** It can be moved to compete with PU = survival with stealth or with superspeed. (choice.)

>

> So the possibilities are :

> * Rework MoP : easy solution are might removal as suggered. Or make it back to 3 charges with less damage per charges so that each charge damage will does less damage = less burst + less might uptime as you will have more delay between casts. You can also make MoP give might only on teamate, not on the mesmer (teamplay cough cough...).

> * Delete Egotism : lazy design flast % damage trait who contribute to burst. (glamour haven't a trait since a long time now for example, cough cough ...).

> * Swap traits to disallow having a one way stacking modifier : Having to choose between mental anguish or superiority complex by putting them on the same column when target is disabled for example : lissed dps with superiority complex or burst with mental anguish. (choice.)

> * undo mass invis buff : it was already the only usable ulti instead do something about moa and time warp please.

>

> It's just some suggestions but looking at the root of what changed thoses past years, what will not destroy build diversity neither traits instead of just seeing 100k nerf post who will end up with random bad nerfs...

> Btw I didn't consider PU core as OP but if we can not go in all directions please because reading some post here make me think some guys probably never play mesmers as usual and will follow random nerfs suggestions.

>

 

Burst from short stealth is not a problem, it is counterable, only noobs will ofc still have a problem but that is their problem. The current PU build undermins the skill lvl of the target remarkable more than a oneshot Mesmer not running Chaosline. Less stealth uptime makes it harder to impossible to stack stealth completely out of ear shot and visible range and makes the hit of the no tell oneshot at least predictable. The sustain Chaos gives, incl mobility by superspeed and lower blink cd, eleminates the risk and difficulty to survive after burst fails or in general. It is not a high risk build at all anymore. Also because of the ridiculous high stealth uptime the Mesmer needs to use less stealth skills/cds to come out of nowhere, means he still has more options to escape and reset after the oneshot try.

 

Didn't we agree on removing the stealth duration increase and give longer boonduration from boons the Mesmer gets when stealthed? So the boon duration is the same or even higher than before to compensate for the stealthuptime lose? I also would remove Might to higher opportunity costs in dmg when taking a defensive traitline too, give more defensive boons instead. Making superspeed compete with PU then, general good idea. Also for Superiority Complex and MA even though i think passive dmg multiplier shouldn't be a traitdesign it should be something only for Runes and Sigils. But yes your idea would at least solve parts of the issue. I also would make that Mass inv can be heard when casted during stealth. There is no good reason why a long stealth aoe skill can't be heard when casted during stealth.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"viquing.8254" said:

> * undo mass invis buff : it was already the only usable ulti. instead do something about moa and time warp please.

 

Absolutely not. It was definitely the "least bad" core elite before, but a "Stealth Elite Skill" double traited that still ends up with a shorter stealth duration and a 3x as long cooldown as freaking Toss Elixir S is objectively just stupid.