Can Charr's back be modified to be straight?

[Yargesh.4965]

I really hope they don't do this.

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"Einlanzer.1627" said:

> > @"Jimbru.6014" said:

> > Welcome to the reason most games stick to mostly human shaped, upright-standing races. Trolls and Worgen in WoW have hunchbacked models with the same graphical issues.

> >

> > To make an upright Charr look right, they couldn't use the present models. GW2 Charr don't look even remotely natural standing upright; necks are way too long, among other issues. They'd need to create new models closer to GW1 Charr concepts...

> >

> > 

> >

> > ...and THEN they would have to redesign literally every skin in the game to fit the new models. That's the kind of major development work that happens in pre-alpha or alpha stages of development, not seven years into stable release. Not gonna happen at this mature stage of GW2's lifespan.

>

> Man the original concept art for both charr and norn look way better than the models we ended up with in-game.

>

 

Yes so unfortunate honestly

[XYLO.7031]

Thank you for posting the picture of the cat standing upright. It really made me laugh.

[teaandcoffee.5916]

In gw 1 you had 3 types of charr. The casters had a straight spine, the warriors where like Quasimodo, the rangers in between. I think they didnt choose for this because of massive clipping isues. Funny pictures btw, especially the cat :p He probably wants to audition for the role of a Meerkat.

[huluobo.7036]

I just hope that when I type "/ cross arms", the Emblazoned Cape will not disappear

[Raknar.4735]

> @"huluobo.7036" said:

> I just hope that when I type "/ cross arms", the Emblazoned Cape will not disappear

 

Current workaround: Do the emote, then hide/unhide toggle your backpack. Also works for weapons!

[sorudo.9054]

i hope they do add a position option, they whole reason why i just can't play a charr is because i don't like to play belle and the beast, i want a charr firecaster.

[lokh.2695]

Can they? Sure. Will they? Probably not. Should they? I'd rather have them spend resources elsewhere.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

Making upright charr would be breaking all of charr biology lore since the days of Prophecies, where the only charr to stand upright - and this is true in GW2 - are the shaman caste oppressors who artificially modify their backs to make themselves superior to the natural charr position-holding horde.

 

From a lore reason, they shouldn't do it.

 

From an aesthetic reason, it's pure subjectiveness and the playerbase is split, with the majority either not caring or preferring hunched backs.

 

From a game development reason, it's far too late to do this - altering the model posture would fuck up the art and design of no doubt _all_ of charr chest, leggings, and possible shoulder art - both armor and outfits - resulting in not just worse clipping issues than ever before, but also scrunched as fuck textures. And to fix _every single piece of armor and outfit_ is just far too much work for worth. The time to complain about this was in GW2's betas, not 7 years after launch.

 

IMO, the only _objectively viewed_ issue that the charr rigging has is the length of the neck. But even that would be too much work to fix, since you'd need to consider how it would affect every helm (again, armor and outfit) and hairstyle in the game.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Making upright charr would be breaking all of charr biology lore since the days of Prophecies, where the only charr to stand upright - and this is true in GW2 - are the shaman caste oppressors who artificially modify their backs to make themselves superior to the natural charr position-holding horde.

>

> From a lore reason, they shouldn't do it.

 

sorry Konig, I have to disagree with you there, there is nothing in the lore that suggests they should not, there are Charrs in GW1 that stand up straight, and seems like it's any caster class Charrs, notable ones include

* Bonfaaz Burntfur - Ele - Great Northern Wall mission back in Prophecies

* Swift Fiercejustice - Monk

* Roan Fierceheart - Monk

* Cowl Fiercetongue - Ele

* Seer Fiercereign - Rit

* Hierophant Burntsoul - Ele

 

just like different animals of all species you see in the real world, to ancient extinct dinosaurs (at least according to archaeologists), they have their usual 'comfortable' stance

 

and their standing stance to fight (i.e. kangaroos), scounting (meerkats), for food (elephants), and various other reasons

 

 

[Eddbopkins.2630]

Guild wars 1 charr were straight!

I hate this hunch back design if charr.

[Ben K.6238]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Making upright charr would be breaking all of charr biology lore since the days of Prophecies, where the only charr to stand upright - and this is true in GW2 - are the shaman caste oppressors who artificially modify their backs to make themselves superior to the natural charr position-holding horde.

> >

> > From a lore reason, they shouldn't do it.

>

> sorry Konig, I have to disagree with you there, there is nothing in the lore that suggests they should not, there are Charrs in GW1 that stand up straight, and seems like it's any caster class Charrs, notable ones include

> * Bonfaaz Burntfur - Ele - Great Northern Wall mission back in Prophecies

> * Swift Fiercejustice - Monk

> * Roan Fierceheart - Monk

> * Cowl Fiercetongue - Ele

> * Seer Fiercereign - Rit

> * Hierophant Burntsoul - Ele

>

> just like different animals of all species you see in the real world, to ancient extinct dinosaurs (at least according to archaeologists), they have their usual 'comfortable' stance

>

> and their standing stance to fight (i.e. kangaroos), scounting (meerkats), for food (elephants), and various other reasons

>

>

 

Konig is going to be pretty well versed in the lore surrounding charr in GW1 - he's been quite involved in the lore community for a very long time.

 

Different stances were not a thing in GW1 so I can't really work with that for comparison purposes, but they are used in GW2 to some extent. There's a reason why those animals adopt the stances they do, though. Kangaroos stand upright to fight because they fight mainly with their back legs - charr do not. Meerkats stand on their hind legs to watch their surroundings because they're short so they need to get as high as possible - charr are something around 8-9ft even hunched, so this is less of a concern for them. Elephants only leave their forelegs for short periods due to their weight, and they're just reaching into trees - if charr had any need to do that, they could just climb the things.

 

If anything, I find it most unlikely charr would stand upright in combat because they'd be exposing more of themselves to harm unnecessarily. They don't fight in a way or use any sorts of tools that require anything but their heads and claws to be up front - they even hold bows horizontally to avoid this.

[SoulGuardian.6203]

Funny that you mention it.

Charr in GW1 could stand up straight.

 

Pyre fierceshot does it.

Roan fierceheart does it.

Cowl fiercetongue does it.

Seer fiercereign does it.

 

Actually Cowl and Seer barely curves at all.

 

So I don’t know really.

Perhaps cause charr are trained to always be ready for combat, they adopt that stance most of the time?

[XenoSpyro.1780]

I suppose you want shorter arms too? I'll pass on the "yet another Khajit clone" pitch, thanks. I don't care if it existed in Gw1 for casters, straight backs do not structurally make sense for a beast race that spends any considerable time on all fours, which is the natural posture a skeleton like this would support.

 

> @"Ben K.6238" said:

> If anything, I find it most unlikely charr would stand upright in combat because they'd be exposing more of themselves to harm unnecessarily.

This is why armor and shields exist.

 

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> entirely optional therefor not affect you in the slightest?

Good lord, this bad argument is the white flag of every guild wars related post, made by those that have nothing to say and no reason to say it. They could hypothetically add any long list of stupid or pointless features and mechanics (coughRavenLockscough) to the game that are neither necessary nor good.

[Ben K.6238]

> @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> > @"Ben K.6238" said:

> > If anything, I find it most unlikely charr would stand upright in combat because they'd be exposing more of themselves to harm unnecessarily.

> This is why armor and shields exist.

 

Not quite. Armour and shields are used to provide extra protection that you wouldn't otherwise have, not to allow the adoption of battle stances that offer no advantage. Charr would have a smaller profile and longer reach with the hunched stance, and that would come with the bonus of not needing such heavy armour in places their foes can't reach.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > Making upright charr would be breaking all of charr biology lore since the days of Prophecies, where the only charr to stand upright - and this is true in GW2 - are the shaman caste oppressors who artificially modify their backs to make themselves superior to the natural charr position-holding horde.

> >

> > From a lore reason, they shouldn't do it.

>

> sorry Konig, I have to disagree with you there, there is nothing in the lore that suggests they should not, there are Charrs in GW1 that stand up straight, and seems like it's any caster class Charrs, notable ones include

> * Bonfaaz Burntfur - Ele - Great Northern Wall mission back in Prophecies

> * Swift Fiercejustice - Monk

> * Roan Fierceheart - Monk

> * Cowl Fiercetongue - Ele

> * Seer Fiercereign - Rit

> * Hierophant Burntsoul - Ele

>

> just like different animals of all species you see in the real world, to ancient extinct dinosaurs (at least according to archaeologists), they have their usual 'comfortable' stance

>

> and their standing stance to fight (i.e. kangaroos), scounting (meerkats), for food (elephants), and various other reasons

 

You realize all the charr you mentioned are... members of the shaman caste (aka charr spellcasters). Which I explicitly talked about. In both games, the shamans are the ones who stand upright. In GW1, these were the monks (literally called "shamans"), elementalists, and ritualists. And to a lesser degree, necromancers and mesmers. In GW2, these are the Fire Shamans, Smoke Shamans, Lava Shamans, and Gaheron.

 

And as for your "comfortable stances" comment... that actually goes in favor of the arched back being the natural form. After all, there are animations where a charr player stands upright while attacking - I've noticed it a _lot_ on my charr necromancer, especially with staff and greatsword.

 

> @"SoulGuardian.6203" said:

> Funny that you mention it.

> Charr in GW1 could stand up straight.

>

> Pyre fierceshot does it.

> Roan fierceheart does it.

> Cowl fiercetongue does it.

> Seer fiercereign does it.

>

> Actually Cowl and Seer barely curves at all.

>

> So I don’t know really.

> Perhaps cause charr are trained to always be ready for combat, they adopt that stance most of the time?

 

See above: The shaman cast stand upright. Which consists of the spellcasters. During GW1 and for over two centuries prior, the shaman caste were the rulers of the charr and used this to oppress the rest - with Flame Legion shaman caste being the highest on the chain. And in GW2, it's the Flame Legion's shamans that are upright (though the neck is more consistent with other charr designs than the upright GW1 models' neck angle and length).

 

Pyre, btw, is definitely crouched. Not as much as warriors, but still crouched like other rangers and necromancers.

[AznCandyPie.2580]

Please no. I absolutely hate humanoid beast races - there's just nothing unique or fun with having a cat head slapped in a human body, like what other MMOs do.

 

Charrs are the perfect beast race.

[Teratus.2859]

Konig pretty mcuh nailed it as usual lol

 

It's simply unatural for them to stand upright like that and those that do modify their posture to stand and walk upright constantly likely loose the ability to run effectively on all fours which is a common thing Charr do as oit enhances their running speed.

 

Think of it like how some cultures have human modification like putting rings around the neck to stretch it or cloth around the head to alter the shape of the skull (Artificial cranial deformation).. think there's also one where feet are confined to small shoes thus they do not grow right and the person ends up with tiny feet.

 

Charr probably did something like that with their Shaman cubs forced them to walk upright till their bodies deformed into that unnatural shape, which may also explain their heads too.

As others said this was likely done to make Shamans appear more refined.. important or superior in some way.. to make them distinct from the other Charr which the Shamans believed were inferior to them.

On the Wiki is says that Cubs in the Fahrar are raised in a sort of ancient Spartan kind of culture where they're encouraged to fight, often got beatings and sometimes subjected to bloodsports etc.. and that's the normal Charr.

So it's not too much of a stretch to think that the Flame Legion would go as far as to physically deform young Shaman cubs via cruel and torturous practices.. the cubs likely did it willingly and saw it as some kind of high honor.

 

All Charr can stand upright but they tend not to move much while doing so, likely because it may mess with their center of gravity and throw them off balance.. it's more a display.. like puffing out their chest sorta thing, not a practical battle stance.. as someone said it exposes more weaknesses if they fight like that too.

[Tommo Chocolate.5870]

Here's a quote explaining the reasoning behind the charr posture, from Kristen Perry, one of the designers who worked on them:

 

> In designing them from the beginning of Guild Wars 2, there had been a very large internal debate about whether or not they were going to bend more like creatures or stand upright as more humanoid. In the end to better stand out against the humans and norn, it was decided to slouch them.

 

(The full article can be found [here](https://kristenperryart.com/projects/w8YEL6), and a lot of it is about the impact the posture had on designing clothing for them.)

 

I'm not convinced that their appearance in GW1 is really relevant to this discussion, since several other (non-playable) races had major redesigns between games, e.g. trolls, hydras, skelk, giants. Designs from GW1 obviously influenced the ones in GW2, but the designers were obviously open to making alterations - many of them more substantial than this.

[Matt H.6142]

I think it comes down to the all-fours run and I guess that’s not good on a straight spine.

[Doggie.3184]

From what I recall the plan was to have an option between hunched and upright, since both versions exist in GW1. But I guess it was too much work so they decided not to. They couldn't even make unique Sylvari animations.

[Knighthonor.4061]

> @"Tommo Chocolate.5870" said:

> Here's a quote explaining the reasoning behind the charr posture, from Kristen Perry, one of the designers who worked on them:

>

> > In designing them from the beginning of Guild Wars 2, there had been a very large internal debate about whether or not they were going to bend more like creatures or stand upright as more humanoid. In the end to better stand out against the humans and norn, it was decided to slouch them.

>

> (The full article can be found [here](https://kristenperryart.com/projects/w8YEL6), and a lot of it is about the impact the posture had on designing clothing for them.)

>

> I'm not convinced that their appearance in GW1 is really relevant to this discussion, since several other (non-playable) races had major redesigns between games, e.g. trolls, hydras, skelk, giants. Designs from GW1 obviously influenced the ones in GW2, but the designers were obviously open to making alterations - many of them more substantial than this.

 

And just like how Anet early on was wrong about Expansions, Mounts, Raids, Healers, Anet is wrong here on this subject regarding the Charr's models in GW2.

 

Again they had their own thoughts on this but they were wrong or better yet off from what most people feel or agree with.

 

Again let's not forget that Anet has been wrong in the past, like they thought Living World was better concept than Expansions. We know that was a bad decision. And things change. I don't see why this subject on Charr model can't also change. Seeing how all the Charr factions are uniting now, why cant we get the caster model of Charr from GW1?

 

 

[Ben K.6238]

The lead artist on GW2 charr was "wrong"?

 

Considering the amount of research and work she put in, and also considering she does this for a living and you don't, I'm going to take her word for it over yours.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

 

> And just like how Anet early on was wrong about Expansions, Mounts, Raids, Healers, Anet is wrong here on this subject regarding the Charr's models in GW2.

Those are all "new" content and not a redesign of existing models. Every outfit and armor set would have to be redone for upright-standing charr. If Anet has read through this thread, I'm sure that they would have done the math to determine whether or not the resources are worth the end result.

 

 

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Ben K.6238" said:

> The lead artist on GW2 charr was "wrong"?

>

> Considering the amount of research and work she put in, and also considering she does this for a living and you don't, I'm going to take her word for it over yours.

 

Yeah, seeing that this was a design choice from the start, I don't see them changing it now.