NERF STEALTH NOW

[saerni.2584]

> @"hotte in space.2158" said:

> More arguments why stealth succks

> 1) We will never ever see again a team, opening a mAT final wihout stealth. 4(!) thiefs in last EU mAT final. How boring!

> 2) Being killed out of stealth doesnt bring fun down to 0, it brings fun down to -10

> 3) Thief burst gets nerfed with next patch. This means that spiking other players takes them now 1,5 sec instead of 1 sec. GREAT^^

> 4) I have downed an opponent and watch him dieing while decapping his node, but omg noooo he gets rezzed by a stealth thief (funfactor -15)

> 5) Anything worse than a stealth thief? Yes, two of them! Even when winning such a match, its not fun

>

> Anyway how stealth can get nerfed but it has to get nerfed! All we non-thief-players want to fight in PvP instead of "guess where the thief is"

> But if you want Sindrener to be on top for the next 10 years, then leave everything like it is

>

> PS: theres too much mobility in PvP as well. A character just having perma swiftness without any long-range jumps or superspeed is a lame duck

>

>

 

1) According to recent mAT stats that were posted, thief is actually not the most played or represented.

2) Subjectively yes. But if you are being killed then you don’t have the necessary survival skills traited. Very few thieves can sustain that kind of DPS without being super squishy.

3) This is probably an exaggeration and if you are adding multiple seconds to kill time (against an afk target) you are making it much easier for said target to react and not die. Side note, thief should be able to kill you if you don’t react or lack the cool downs to react.

4) Thief can’t move the downed. Have you tried cleaving the area where the enemy went down?

5) Two thieves can be good but falls apart when you can use your team to focus the thieves. Without their ability to focus on pressuring, your team may be able to force them to retreat or be a free kill. AoE is a big help here as is having ranged abilities to reapply pressure after they use a stealth de-target.

[Loboling.5293]

Stealth should impose a damage debuff that stacks. After 3 seconds in stealth, -20%; After 5 seconds -30%; After 7 seconds -50%. Only in PvP & WvW. Fades as soon as you come out of stealth/deal damage.

 

You still have 3 seconds to setup your full burst, but if someone is running from you, playing defensive, not giving you an opening, it makes sense that you'd deal less damage with the opener. And also stacking 9+ seconds of stealth into a burst won't be nearly so viable anymore.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Loboling.5293" said:

> Stealth should impose a damage debuff that stacks. After 3 seconds in stealth, -20%; After 5 seconds -30%; After 7 seconds -50%. Only in PvP & WvW. Fades as soon as you come out of stealth/deal damage.

>

> You still have 3 seconds to setup your full burst, but if someone is running from you, playing defensive, not giving you an opening, it makes sense that you'd deal less damage with the opener. And also stacking 9+ seconds of stealth into a burst won't be nearly so viable anymore.

 

This is actually decent idea as it dials back perma stealth bursts but not short duration stealth burats

[Exalted Quality.8534]

I think a good way to balance stealth would be reducing movement speed by either 50% or 66% while stealthed and make any successful attack (excluding condition ticks) reveal. This would require anet to repurpose skills that currently reveal, but would add some juicy counterplay.

 

Logically, It makes no sense that a person would be running full speed while trying to be sneaky, but who needs logic anyways?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> I think a good way to balance stealth would be reducing movement speed by either 50% or 66% while stealthed and make any successful attack (excluding condition ticks) reveal. This would require anet to repurpose skills that currently reveal, but would add some juicy counterplay.

>

> Logically, It makes no sense that a person would be running full speed while trying to be sneaky, but who needs logic anyways?

 

Also good idea, movement penalty on sneaking around makes sense. I'd say 50 percent would probobly be sufficient as with CD on a missed backstab trying to keep up to a moving target would already be good times with the addition of 50%reduced move speed lol.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Loboling.5293" said:

> Stealth should impose a damage debuff that stacks. After 3 seconds in stealth, -20%; After 5 seconds -30%; After 7 seconds -50%. Only in PvP & WvW. Fades as soon as you come out of stealth/deal damage.

>

> You still have 3 seconds to setup your full burst, but if someone is running from you, playing defensive, not giving you an opening, it makes sense that you'd deal less damage with the opener. And also stacking 9+ seconds of stealth into a burst won't be nearly so viable anymore.

 

I'm on board with this. Good idea.

 

> @"Exalted Quality.8534" said:

> I think a good way to balance stealth would be reducing movement speed by either 50% or 66% while stealthed and make any successful attack (excluding condition ticks) reveal. This would require anet to repurpose skills that currently reveal, but would add some juicy counterplay.

>

> Logically, It makes no sense that a person would be running full speed while trying to be sneaky, but who needs logic anyways?

 

Not on board with this. Still need to rely on stealth often to reposition or drop on a point. I'd rather the above.

[hotte in space.2158]

> @"Cobrakon.3108" said:

> Give us back our duelability from year 1 and ill trade you some stealth. Alas people that turn with wasd wont agree though.. they just want to play dungeons and dragons.

 

DEAL !

[Leonidrex.5649]

there is nothing wrong with stealth itself. if you stealth for 4s nothing amazing happens, stealth is enabler.

reduce effectiveness of blasting fields while stealthed ( reduces stealth spam from thiefs and reduces holo healing while stealthed )

make stealth not stack but refresh itself.

if I can decoy and immidietly mass invis I get 6s+3s stealth =9s.

but both cooldowns go instantly, if im forced to wait 3s to use mass, it preety much means it has extra 3s CD.

keep stealth usable, make stacking stealth punishable.

the -damage and - is ridiculous

[hotte in space.2158]

> @"Loboling.5293" said:

> Stealth should impose a damage debuff that stacks. After 3 seconds in stealth, -20%; After 5 seconds -30%; After 7 seconds -50%. Only in PvP & WvW. Fades as soon as you come out of stealth/deal damage.

>

> You still have 3 seconds to setup your full burst, but if someone is running from you, playing defensive, not giving you an opening, it makes sense that you'd deal less damage with the opener. And also stacking 9+ seconds of stealth into a burst won't be nearly so viable anymore.

 

Yes I agree too, good idea, something like this could do the job, seems fair and wouldnt cause other problematic stuff

[Genesis.5169]

We need to nerf the affect that player salt has on the DEVs for real.

Maybe then we get good pvp again.

[Megametzler.5729]

Not saying it is OP, but it has very unfun side effects. My main problem is with long duration stealth, because of 2 reasons:

 

1. You simply cannot anticipate the burst. You don't see Black Powder, you don't hear it and if you do, the thief might pop out anywhere else on the map. Same goes for some mesmer builds.

 

2. When playing a side noder, whenever a thief stealthes on mid - and you cant interrupt them stealthing up - you need to run to sides. Covering the whole distance with stealth forces side noders who cannot really help on mid spend a long time just running.

 

Possible solution: Reduce speed in stealth. They can still use it defensively or for short-term bursts in combination with teleports, still dodge. But not cover half the map stealthed. By how much? Only after 3s? I'd be open for suggestions.

 

I'd also be open for some compensation. Get aegis when getting stealth for 1s? Getting superspeed for a small time before the decrease?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

This is the first time in years ive seen a nerf stealth or by extension thief that has actually developed into a actual legitimate conversation about what would tone down the actual problematic aspects of stealth while maintaining some thought towards keeping the class viable lol.

I say good job!

[hotte in space.2158]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> This is the first time in years ive seen a nerf stealth or by extension thief that has actually developed into a actual legitimate conversation about what would tone down the actual problematic aspects of stealth while maintaining some thought towards keeping the class viable lol.

> I say good job!

 

Thx man^^ yeeeaaahhh just blue sky boys here :P

But seriously, we´re talking bout balancing here and balancing means approaching to a status quo with which everybody can be happy, including thief players of course !

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"hotte in space.2158" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > This is the first time in years ive seen a nerf stealth or by extension thief that has actually developed into a actual legitimate conversation about what would tone down the actual problematic aspects of stealth while maintaining some thought towards keeping the class viable lol.

> > I say good job!

>

> Thx man^^ yeeeaaahhh just blue sky boys here :P

> But seriously, we´re talking bout balancing here and balancing means approaching to a status quo with which everybody can be happy, including thief players of course !

 

Yeah but ur views are far from the norm in these parts lol.

Anyway so far I'd say damage reduction increases as duration in stealth increases is the best so far. Full burst at 3 sec or lower in stealth would in most cases put thief close enough to the opponent that if they have good map awareness it won't be a big surprise out of know where and the opponent can take whatever defensive measures they want, all while maintaining the high burst potential that the class needs. The longer duration the players in stealth the less counterplays the opponent has especially if the burst is from a thief 15 or more seconds into stealth that's travelled more than half the map concealed should have a pay off of less burst.

[Burnfall.9573]

 


[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

>

>

> 

 

Or u could actually throw out some legitimate ideas to help make stealth fit more in line with the game lol

And I mean real suggestions not delete or complete redesigns cuz realistically were past that and won't happen.

We need ideas that are realistic and not beyond what we kno arenets would do so in other words has to be somewhat easy to implement and reaches as close as a compromise to both sides as the stealth player and as someone fighting a stealth oriented player.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> Or u could actually throw out some legitimate ideas to help make stealth fit more in line with the game lol

 

You're asking too much of Burnfall. He's seen too much on the battlefield. He's going to be like that until there's a stealth rework, and probably beyond.

 

[hotte in space.2158]

When we wanted devs to touch stealth, it wasnt meant to be like this :

 

Black Powder: Increased the radius of the area of blinding and smoke field around the thief from 120 to 180 lol :p

 

There are several good ideas around how to nerf stealth, but I think the only thing we can achieve, is to make devs realise, that the majority of players is, to say it carefully, very unhappy with the current state of stealth in PvP, and just make them starting to think about that maybe it couldnt be a bad idea to nerf stealth.

 

[MyPuppy.8970]

Maybe make stealth decrease movement speed if there are ennemies nearby.

More than 900 no penalty

Between 600 and 900 -25% speed

Between 300 and 600 -30%

<300 -33%

If you touch an ennemy you're visible again.

Stealth itself is fine, but when it is combined with high mobility, evasiveness and high burst damage (sometimes ranged), it starts to be too advantageous. Same as condi builds that pack high evasion uptime, constant condi pressure, good sustain and sometimes good mobility, but those have been/will be nerfed/deleted.

From a balancing perspective, specs that have excellent damage avoidance should not be that much oppressive. Be it power or condi.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Or u could actually throw out some legitimate ideas to help make stealth fit more in line with the game lol

>

> You're asking too much of Burnfall. He's seen too much on the battlefield. He's going to be like that until there's a stealth rework, and probably beyond.

>

 

In truth though Burnfall's post is pretty relevant, this time.... everything in said that video is pretty accurate even to this day in gw2.

There is no natural detection of any kind vis other games which all have some form of detection or limiting factor be it incoming damage or casting any skill after the fact which breaks the effect. Gw2 lets stealth run a bit more wild than almost every other game that might have a stealth mechanic.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Loboling.5293" said:

> Stealth should impose a damage debuff that stacks. After 3 seconds in stealth, -20%; After 5 seconds -30%; After 7 seconds -50%. Only in PvP & WvW. Fades as soon as you come out of stealth/deal damage.

>

> You still have 3 seconds to setup your full burst, but if someone is running from you, playing defensive, not giving you an opening, it makes sense that you'd deal less damage with the opener. And also stacking 9+ seconds of stealth into a burst won't be nearly so viable anymore.

 

Thats an idea I can get behind. Id probably make the first threshhold 4 seconds, instead of 3 (basically to make Hide in Shadows or Cloak and Dagger on their own not give you that damage debuff if youre running Meld with Shadows, since that leads to pretty clunky situation), but otherwise, yeah, disincentivise permastealth bursting while not hurting regular in-combat stealt.

[hotte in space.2158]

Furthermore I think, for killing so many innocent players, Sindrener should be sentenced to one month of playing core staff ele

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"hotte in space.2158" said:

> Furthermore I think, for killing so many innocent players, Sindrener should be sentenced to one month of playing core staff ele

 

dont do this, he has a kid!

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"hotte in space.2158" said:

> Furthermore I think, for killing so many innocent players, Sindrener should be sentenced to one month of playing core staff ele

 

Now you've gone too far.

[hotte in space.2158]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

 

> Now you've gone too far.

 

So what? Anybody here who wouldnt like to see him being chased by some gold2 players?