What has changed - Thief

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

I haven't played in 1-2 years but since im stuck at home for a while, i just reinstalled the game. In general, how has the thief changed? What are the (more) viable builds for pvp and wvw? What weapons/skills/traits have been buffed nerfed?

 

Ive been going through patch notes but it's hard to put it all together in my head. I stopped playing before mounts were a thing.

 

When i stopped, d/d was viable, staff was crazy good but then had been nerfed to just "good", s/d was barely viable, and the meta was d/p. Rifle was alright.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> I haven't played in 1-2 years but since im stuck at home for a while, i just reinstalled the game. In general, how has the thief changed? What are the (more) viable builds for pvp and wvw? What weapons/skills/traits have been buffed nerfed?

>

> Ive been going through patch notes but it's hard to put it all together in my head. I stopped playing before mounts were a thing.

>

> When i stopped, d/d was viable, staff was crazy good but then had been nerfed to just "good", s/d was barely viable, and the meta was d/p. Rifle was alright.

 

At this point it's probably too much to just have "tldr" of the changes (other than the fact that for about a month now the general dmg/sustain in wvw/pvp went down for every class because of the rebalance patch). Your best bet would probably be read all the traits, play what you want and see how it goes ;p

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

[TakeCare.3182]

> @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

 

My observations from a WvW standpoint:

* I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

* Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

* Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

* Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

> @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

>

> My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

 

What about condi thief?

Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Noodle damage, have fun lol

[Yasai.3549]

Thief will still be able to do what they have always been doing : hit and run.

 

Thief still sees alot of gameplay but yu won't see them roaming often now because TTK has been increased, any 1v1 fight against a competent player will just lead to resets again and again and again due to how Thief runs out of steam if they try to go for the kill.

There are still cases where yu see two or more Thieves roaming together to prey on solos like wolves preying on sheep.

 

The interesting thing now is seeing Thieves in zergs.

Thieves in zergs are mainly DE or DD, providing ranged damage or melee cleave during a push.

Though they aren't a staple zerg comp they have their uses, mainly Scorpion Wire and backdoor Portals.

[Sobx.1758]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

>yu

 

Seriously though, why?

 

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Thieves in zergs are mainly DE

 

That seems just bad tbh and if a squad takes random DEs for ranged dmg, they probably take pretty much anyone else? :D

[babazhook.6805]

> @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

> >

> > My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> > * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> > * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> > * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> > * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

>

> What about condi thief?

> Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

 

In relative terms respective to all other classes out there and the state of power and condition builds , the P/D condition build for thief is in a very good spot and likely the best ever. This not to say it the most powerful thief build or the most powerful build out of all professions but that it performs very well and is very viable. The best builds from my experience are Core (DA/SA/TR) or the DE version (which the most important component of is added access to stealth) going DA/DE/SA.

[kash.9213]

> @"Sobx.1758" said:

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> >yu

>

> Seriously though, why?

>

> > @"Yasai.3549" said:

> > Thieves in zergs are mainly DE

>

> That seems just bad tbh and if a squad takes random DEs for ranged dmg, they probably take pretty much anyone else? :D

 

I spend a lot of time in blob fights, not in squad. DE is good for blob fights, but you have to be free to do your thing weaving in, out, and around the zerg and not run inside of it.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

> > >

> > > My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> > > * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> > > * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> > > * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> > > * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

> >

> > What about condi thief?

> > Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

>

> In relative terms respective to all other classes out there and the state of power and condition builds , the P/D condition build for thief is in a very good spot and likely the best ever. This not to say it the most powerful thief build or the most powerful build out of all professions but that it performs very well and is very viable. The best builds from my experience are Core (DA/SA/TR) or the DE version (which the most important component of is added access to stealth) going DA/DE/SA.

Funny thing, I havent met a p/d condi thief for years (literally, I cannot remember engaging anything of the sort for ages, d/d spinners at best) but yesterday I did meet one. He had *insane* condi pressure, just **spladam** 5+ condis from stealth and you where loosing 20% hp a second. I had enough cleanse on my roamer engie build to fight him for a time but he could easily overwhelm that in a 1v1 when I wasnt fighting on my toes. Saw him jump in and almost instakill others. And of course as a thief, was slippery as all fuck and practically needed like 5+ just to hunt down if he decided to run.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

> > >

> > > My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> > > * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> > > * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> > > * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> > > * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

> >

> > What about condi thief?

> > Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

>

> In relative terms respective to all other classes out there and the state of power and condition builds , the P/D condition build for thief is in a very good spot and likely the best ever. This not to say it the most powerful thief build or the most powerful build out of all professions but that it performs very well and is very viable. The best builds from my experience are Core (DA/SA/TR) or the DE version (which the most important component of is added access to stealth) going DA/DE/SA.

 

Ive only ever run d/d condi. Mind sharing your p/d condi build over a pm?

[SoulSin.5682]

> @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> I haven't played in 1-2 years but since im stuck at home for a while, i just reinstalled the game. In general, how has the thief changed? What are the (more) viable builds for pvp and wvw? What weapons/skills/traits have been buffed nerfed?

>

> Ive been going through patch notes but it's hard to put it all together in my head. I stopped playing before mounts were a thing.

>

> When i stopped, d/d was viable, staff was crazy good but then had been nerfed to just "good", s/d was barely viable, and the meta was d/p. Rifle was alright.

 

1. We are still slaves to trickery, more now than ever since the amount of initiative for key skills have raised, again.

 

2. Some skills have changed:

- Blinding Powder is no longer instant for example, but now works like a stunbreak.

- All traps were revised and remade. Shadow Portal, especially, becomes usable on some builds depending on your personal preferences.

- Some skills like Scorpion Wire got charges.

- Smoke Screen is no longer a line, but a circle.

 

3. Dagger builds are in a bad situation for years:

- The build was already off-meta when Sword/Dagger was the meta build.

- Arena Net decided a new approach to specializations, so that they would have at least a disavantage compared to core builds. For thieves, that means that Daredevils lost "Steal" and got "Swipe". That is pretty much "steal" with half the range. This change pretty much killed Dagger builds that relied on daredevil traits to work.

- Thanks to some high skilled players (Sindrener, specially), dagger found new uses running Core build again with DA, TR and SA. The clutch of the build was to switch the Signet of Agility for Assassin's Signet and to bring the new Smoke Screen. The build got popular for some time but got nerfed to oblivion again.

- After many nerfs to Deadly Arts, people just started using Shado Arts, killing the damage of dagger even more.

- Current build of Dagger hits like wet noodles and run SA / TR / DD. But ultimately works.

 

4. Sword got plenty of "new builds":

- TL;DR: Sindrener got tired of Sword/Dagger and started running Sword/Pistol. The build popularity exploded.

- Despite being just a weaker build roamer wise, the scrubs cried so much that the build got nerfed either way. The current state of the build is unusable. Still works somewhat tough.

- Players found out that messing with some Deadly Arts traits and Spider Venons could create a Condi Build. Also know as Condi S/D.

- Build became a total cancer.

- Build got nerfed to oblivion. Deadly Arts trait line sank with it. The build is still usable tough, especially that lacks fast condi cleaners. Not as lethal. Scrubs still cry about it tough.

- Ultimately, everyone went back to Sword/Dagger.... again.

 

5. Many stealth related nerfs due to abuse of stealth builds on DeadEyes. Vigor uptime and stamina also took a hit because of the nature of DeadEyes to convert stamina to stealth.

 

6. Countless hours of arguing and discussions over stealth, DeadEyes and DJ's and Malicious Backstabs. Everything got nerfed at some point, some way.

 

7. Just like everyone else, damage of all skills were capped at modifier 2.4 (?). Pretty much every skill in the game got nerfed by around 33%.

- Worth mentioning that this was the second time Thieves auto attack got nerfed past 2 years.

- Due the new policy over soft-CC's and Hard CC's, some skills got nerfed harder. hard CC's no longer deal proper damage and other skills like Pulmonary Impact are nearly useless right now.

 

 

TL:DR:

- Dagger is suffering from damage insufficiency.

- People are tired of Sword/Dagger.

- New builds appeared but got nerfed due to complaints.

 

[saerni.2584]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

> > >

> > > My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> > > * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> > > * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> > > * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> > > * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

> >

> > What about condi thief?

> > Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

>

> In relative terms respective to all other classes out there and the state of power and condition builds , the P/D condition build for thief is in a very good spot and likely the best ever. This not to say it the most powerful thief build or the most powerful build out of all professions but that it performs very well and is very viable. The best builds from my experience are Core (DA/SA/TR) or the DE version (which the most important component of is added access to stealth) going DA/DE/SA.

 

I’ve been going Tr/SA/DE for P/D recently. It has way less condi pressure (more properly played as a hybrid build) but the added Fury and boonrip and initiative (plus the daze on a low cooldown Mark) make up for it.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

> > > >

> > > > My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> > > > * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> > > > * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> > > > * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> > > > * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

> > >

> > > What about condi thief?

> > > Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

> >

> > In relative terms respective to all other classes out there and the state of power and condition builds , the P/D condition build for thief is in a very good spot and likely the best ever. This not to say it the most powerful thief build or the most powerful build out of all professions but that it performs very well and is very viable. The best builds from my experience are Core (DA/SA/TR) or the DE version (which the most important component of is added access to stealth) going DA/DE/SA.

> Funny thing, I havent met a p/d condi thief for years (literally, I cannot remember engaging anything of the sort for ages, d/d spinners at best) but yesterday I did meet one. He had *insane* condi pressure, just **spladam** 5+ condis from stealth and you where loosing 20% hp a second. I had enough cleanse on my roamer engie build to fight him for a time but he could easily overwhelm that in a 1v1 when I wasnt fighting on my toes. Saw him jump in and almost instakill others. And of course as a thief, was slippery as all kitten and practically needed like 5+ just to hunt down if he decided to run.

 

What WvW server was he on?

[babazhook.6805]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

> > > >

> > > > My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> > > > * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> > > > * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> > > > * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> > > > * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

> > >

> > > What about condi thief?

> > > Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

> >

> > In relative terms respective to all other classes out there and the state of power and condition builds , the P/D condition build for thief is in a very good spot and likely the best ever. This not to say it the most powerful thief build or the most powerful build out of all professions but that it performs very well and is very viable. The best builds from my experience are Core (DA/SA/TR) or the DE version (which the most important component of is added access to stealth) going DA/DE/SA.

>

> I’ve been going Tr/SA/DE for P/D recently. It has way less condi pressure (more properly played as a hybrid build) but the added Fury and boonrip and initiative (plus the daze on a low cooldown Mark) make up for it.

 

DA/TR/DE is also fine. P/d Builds focused on conditions can do more combinations of traitlines than most and still be very viable. The only ones that do not work well in pure condi are CS and Acro (especially since nerfs) Playstyle will dictate which right for you anyways. If you like to roam I tend to find SA desirable just for escapes. If you in groups of 5 or 6 you can go all out for damage and +1.

 

In a Pure condi build , while you not getting much from the TOTC or uncatchable , added boon rip or cleanses via tricks (tricks work well with p/d) plus the 15 percent add to ticks out of lead attacks plus BA can really lay the hurt on. BA might appear weak as it does not last long but generally it never cleansed and it can shut down an opponent from doing much while it runs. With lots of torment in the build build it even better. (I use skale venom over the spiders venom)

 

 

[saerni.2584]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"babazhook.6805" said:

> > > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > > @"TakeCare.3182" said:

> > > > > > @"SlitheSlivier.1908" said:

> > > > > > I saw all the damage multipliers were reduced. Does that mean you can't spike anymore? How is Backstab?

> > > > >

> > > > > My observations from a WvW standpoint:

> > > > > * I don't see thieves often anymore, but when I do they're almost all running Shadow Arts

> > > > > * Backstab isn't doing so hot, but dagger builds in general are still playable

> > > > > * Vault and Larcenous Strike both do more damage than Backstab, assuming you rip two boons with the latter.

> > > > > * Staff feels like the best set to me, but I pretty much only play D/P dash so I can't say for sure.

> > > >

> > > > What about condi thief?

> > > > Also how has d/p changed? Still good?

> > >

> > > In relative terms respective to all other classes out there and the state of power and condition builds , the P/D condition build for thief is in a very good spot and likely the best ever. This not to say it the most powerful thief build or the most powerful build out of all professions but that it performs very well and is very viable. The best builds from my experience are Core (DA/SA/TR) or the DE version (which the most important component of is added access to stealth) going DA/DE/SA.

> >

> > I’ve been going Tr/SA/DE for P/D recently. It has way less condi pressure (more properly played as a hybrid build) but the added Fury and boonrip and initiative (plus the daze on a low cooldown Mark) make up for it.

>

> DA/TR/DE is also fine. P/d Builds focused on conditions can do more combinations of traitlines than most and still be very viable. The only ones that do not work well in pure condi are CS and Acro (especially since nerfs) Playstyle will dictate which right for you anyways. If you like to roam I tend to find SA desirable just for escapes. If you in groups of 5 or 6 you can go all out for damage and +1.

>

> In a Pure condi build , while you not getting much from the TOTC or uncatchable , added boon rip or cleanses via tricks (tricks work well with p/d) plus the 15 percent add to ticks out of lead attacks plus BA can really lay the hurt on. BA might appear weak as it does not last long but generally it never cleansed and it can shut down an opponent from doing much while it runs. With lots of torment in the build build it even better. (I use skale venom over the spiders venom)

>

>

 

Yeah, torment application is better off. I generally also run SA because it gives me more stealth on Mark (20 second Trickery) in addition to the other benefits.

 

Since I dropped DA I also have been using Flickering because I run fairly glassy stats and pop in and out of stealth. Played right it is like having protection at critical vulnerable moments—especially when someone force reveals you and you will be taking some hits.