lodjur.1284 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Far as I know, Garish Pillar has no telegraph. It also strikes around the scourge, so not standing near a sand shade isnt sufficient. All of them have 0.5 sec delay and telegraph. It strikes around the shades or the scourge. Not both. It used to be both. > > > > > > Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless youre going hard on it and going for AoE heals, yeah it is. You gain less from it than any other defensive stat. There is no if, were in a condi meta. But noone is swapping to it. Why? Its not good. > > > > > > > > First off, were not in a condi meta, there has never been a condi meta in gw2 WvW, power has always been more common. > > > > > > > > > > We absolutely are in a condi meta, and there have been several. Condi is *far* more common than power right now. > > > > That would imply over 50% of all dmg builds primarily do condi dmg, that's not the case. > > > > I mean, for one that is in fact true, but no. It just means that the majority of players are on condi builds. Which they are. No. > > > > Secondly, healing power doesn't magically become better just because you stack it, it scales linearly. In fact the first points provide a bigger % increase to your personal healing than the later ones. > > > > > > > > > > The point is that unless youre a support, like say Firebrand, or you go all-in on it to maximize your heals, like say Weaver, its just worse. > > > > Your HPS is always competing with your opponents DPS, increasing HPS is generally the best way to fight against condi as the dmg isnt particularly bursty. > > > > Your survival time is just > > > > HP / (Enemy DPS - Incoming HPS) > > > > Increasing HPS can be more effective than increasing HP, just like decreasing enemy dps can be the most effective method. > > > > Meaning that the longer the fight goes, the more effective healing power becomes compared to vitality. > > > > Only if you can survive long enough. And only if you dont keep hitting your vitality cap in parts of the fight. Both of those tend to be a strike *against* healing power. And no, HPS isnt generally the best way to fight against condi (its clears -> HP ->>>> Heals), as the damage is in fact *very* bursty, and also tends to mess with your healing since so many of them have poison, if not as a main damage condition, then as a cover one. So you clear before you heal, common sense. If you hit your vitality cap frequently while playing without a healer, you're already wasting healing, this is generally (but not always) suboptimal. > > > > Apothecary/Settler is already a great option compared to dire on quite a few builds, espec if you don't have a pocket healer (on condi weaver for example). > > > > > > > > > > Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Says the guy playing a condi build thats all about condi transfer and resistance. Burn guardian of course has Guardians abundance of condi clears. Necro has Death magics condi damage reduction and condi transfer. They do. > > > > > > > > Herald is all about transfers. > > > > > > > > The sPvP build is all about resistance > > > > > > > > Condi Revenant/Renegade (NOT HERALD) with rune of tormenting is definitively not about either transfers or resistance. I played with Acolyte of Torment a while and still didn't struggle with condi dmg, I only swapped back to demonic defiance because immob so common and a certain death sentence. > > > > > > > > > > The WvW build is also all about resistance. Its the trademark of the bleeding legend. > > > > The bleed legend is kalla. Which doesn't have any resistance skills. > > > > Bleeding in this case is not literal. Its a replacement for an expletive. Perhaps not a great choice of words while discussing condi builds > > Resistance is most commonly found on Mallyx, the torment legend. > > > > Mallyx has 3 sources of resistance in total. > > Pain Absorption, which is terrible for smallscale (30 energy!!) > > Demonic Defiance (2 sec resistance on demon stance skill, 5 sec cd, realistically 15% uptime, give or take) > > Spirit Boon (2 sec resistance on entering demon, 10% uptime if you swap on cooldown 100% of the time, which you of course don't so somwhere between 5-8%) > > > > Pain Absorption is fine, its a stunbreak and a lot of resistance if you need it. Demonic Defiance is 40+% uptime, especially thanks to the fact that the build gets some extra concentration. I dont know why you do such a bad attempt at underselling your class, everyone knows its busted. Ya aint fooling noone. Pain absoprtion doesn't need buffs imo, but it's not a good skill, it's a terrible stunbreak, and a mediocre anti condi skill outside of large groups. However it shouldn't be buffed, it's okay that condi rev is weak to CC. The concentration from herald, herald is not my class. I don't run herald. They're *very* different. Also there is absolutely no way you will ever reach 40%+ on a normal condi rev build using just demonic defiance 2/5 = 0.4 making 40% the theoretical cap. You can't activate this trait perfectly You can only activate it while in Demon Even if you count the 7% boon duration herald has (4%trait, 3% food) if you spend 66% of your time in Demon (way more than normal) , somehow activating demonic defiance off cooldown, which is extremely unrealistic. You would get 28.25% (slightly rounded up) uptime. That's not even remotely close to 40%+. In a realistic scenario you should struggle to break 20%. > > > > > > Power builds aren't rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you prefer the word uncommon ,sure lets go with that. Theyre still seen a lot less. > > > > > > > > They're by far the most common build type. > > > > > > > > > > In Large Scale? Yes. In Small Scale? Far and away, no. > > > > In both power is more common. > > > > Again, accross several hours daily, several weeks in a row, I can tell you Condition damage in small scale is *far* more common. Its about an 80-20 split in its favour. You either have an extreme confirmation bias, or you're lying. > > If this is due to balance, preference or cost I obviously don't know, but power is far more common in all situations. Which doesn't mean that it's stronger, it just means more common, irrelevant of how it performs compared to condi. > > > > Its far less common in small scale. *Far* less common. No > > > > > > Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its been optimal for quite a while. Its chilling victory that never was (hence why its not being run, people run Soul Eater). > > > > > > > > Chilling victory was by far the better choice back before soul eater become what it is today. > > > > > > > > > > Thats when Decimate was used. Chilling was never really used. > > > > Yes it was, especially back when blighter's boon was the only option. > > > > > > > > 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cant rely on always having fury, and Reaper exists outside of Shroud too. Even if people had the possibility to swap to that stat, they wouldnt. As a matter of fact, Reapers arent locked into having Marauders on all pieces, they could drop them for anything they want. But they dont. The meta build runs full Marauders. > > > > > > > > In certain groups you can, it depends on your teamcomp. Obviously you build for the comp you have. Full marauder is definitively not optimal if you can reliably get fury. > > > > > > > > The effective power difference between marauder and the hypothetical FeroMarauder outside of shroud would be fairly small, Inside of shroud with fury the different would be quite big. > > > > > > > > > > Even if you reliably can get fury, it can reliably be stripped. Relying on boons is a fools errand currently. > > > > No it isn't. > > > > Also if the benefit while having fury is really big and the downside while not having fury is rather small.... > > > > Yeah it is. Thats why they run full Marauders instead of leaving things up to chance. They generally run full marauder because the can't assume that an ally will give them fury (as necro for some reason has their personal fury in the condi traitline). In a group where fury is provided marauder is not optimal. > > > > > > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when facing condition scourge or rev. Where you in fact do need to do that. Well, if you cant just transfer condis and have high resistance uptime. > > > > > > > > Condi scourge is just plain bad, especially 1v1, I would put it somewhere close to the bottom if I made a 1v1 tier list, there's very few builds that should struggle against it. > > > > > > > > > > Again, used to be that way, isnt anymore. > > > > Condi scourge got nuked this patch and it was bad pre-patch. > > > > > > But condi rev has a 8 sec cooldown on Mace 3 and can only be in demon roughly 50% of the time. They need to do both to burst you, or EtD+Banish, which is extremely energy intensive. > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 is not the main worry, but yes, it has a cooldown. And yes, but you only need those 50% (unless the opponent is also a condi build). > > > > > > > All of it is very well telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > Except for the pulsing AoE, Invoke Torment, Call of the Demon, on-X traits, so on and so forth. > > > > Call is not telegraphed but doesn't do a whole lot. > > > > Its one of many things. > > The pulsing AoE is heavily telegraphed > > > > Technically yes, but you cant dodge every pulse (for that matter timing the pulses is a pain because the animation doesnt line up at all). The telegraph shows where you shouldn't be, obviously dodging every pulse of something is a bad idea > > Invoke torment is also telegraphed. > > > > Weve been over this. You get the telegraph *After* youre already hit. Its not telegraphed at all. The legend swap animation happens before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point I was making is that by the point that you can see condi rev swapping legend (unless youre starting at their hotbar) you are already hit. > > > > > > > > Idk, I manage to dodge most of them, when it's relevant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > Luck, good prediction or staring at the hotbar. The only 3 options. > > > > So one has to play well to avoid getting hit, shocker. > > > > > > You don't even need to stare at their ui, you can just quickly math how much energy they spent and how long they've been in the stance and predict it fairly easily. > > > > > > > > > > Im quite quick with mental calculations, and thats still asking too much from me. I dont imagine people who have less of an affinity have that as an option. > > > > I do it effortlessly with 1 enemy rev, as they get more it obviously becomes harder to keep track, it's really more of a mix between some very simply math and "feeling", having played the class helps immensely with this, like with any class, the best way to learn how to counter it is to play it some. > > > > But tbh even just counting to 10 is usually good enough > > > > I mean if you mean the Rev is bad enough to be so predictable, sure. But I dont face bad Condi Revs, I face good ones. Well if they're not swapping when low on energy they're playing very inefficient. > > > > Much easier to avoid than most bursty power skills are tbh. > > > > > > > > > > Hah, no, not even remotely in the slightest. Most bursty power skills have bright telegraphs and cast times of over 0.75 seconds. Some even over a second. > > > > Compare Arcing Slice to Echoing Eruption. > > > > Echoing Eruption has a much much clearer tell. Most condi skills have a much bigger tell than arcing slice, which can crit for 7k+ even post-nerfs against full toughness gear builds. (no I am not advocating for a nerf to arcing slice, I am just trying to put it in perspective) > > > > Of course, if you take the most telegraphed (which is highly unusual for its kind) condi skill and compare it to one of the least telegraphed, you get that kinda result. Though even then Arcing Slice has a telegraph. Most condi skills have *no* tell *whatsoever*, some have a *much smaller* tell than Arcing slice, *very few* have a bigger tell than arcing slice. Also actually Arcing Slice has a pretty big tell nowadays, they added VFX to it at some point. Most condi skills are fairly telegraphed, at least condi rev and scourge ones, burnguard mostly too (which doesn't stop burnguard from being problematic) Thief/mesmer doesn't have particularly telegraphed condi skills, but their power skills aren't much more telegraphed either It's really more of a class thing than condi vs power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The roaming build uses sword/shield. Youve also got it the *exact* wrong way around. Its the WvW build that leans into a hybrid playstyle. The PvP build is pure condi. > > > > > > > > I thought you were whining about trailblazer being too strong... But trailblazer is pure condi. > > > > > > > > > > My point was that condi as a whole is too strong. And that it doesnt at all need the free survivability it can get. Condi Rev in WvW decided to go hybrid because their survivability is great even without free stats, and their damage is absurd. > > > > Any condi+power stat combination is by definition a hybrid build, there's really quite few of them. > > > > By that logic pure condi doesnt exist in PvP because there isnt anything but condi + power or power adjacent stats. Thats obviously nonsense. Hybrid means it leans heavily into both damage types. Carrion Rev in PvP does not. If it had access to Dire, it would play Dire. sPvP does in fact only have hybrid and power builds. If dire (or trailblazer, settler, apothecary etc) existed then it would have pure condi builds. > > Condi rev/ren (or herald for that matter) does not play hybrid in WvW, that's a great way of getting yourself killed. > > > > Except it does. Its done for a while. No > > > > If they run sword/shield in trailblazer, then you get 10 sec of them being essentially unable to pressure oyu in any meaningful way. > > > > > > > > The sPvP one can't be pure condi, because it has power as a major stat, because Sage/Carrion are the only options really. > > > > > > > > > > The power stat on Carrion hardly increases the damage it does. Power Damage needs 3 stats after all. > > > > I was recently "forced" to play some amount of sPvP again recently, it was an awful experience btw. > > > > But I did play carrion/sage condi herald in it mostly. > > > > According to arcdps in most fights I did 25-40% power dmg (varying wildly from fight to fight), which is quite significant. This was playing Mace/Axe+Mace/Shield as I really am not a fan of sword on condi rev. > > > > Unless you were fighting Firebrands who just completely shut down your condi damage entirely (not implausible), in which case you just fought in the wrong place at the wrong time, this is probably ArcDPS messing up the damage count again. And hey, I get it, Condi Rev isnt quite as broken in sPvP as WvW (still broken). Nope normal fights against a variety of builds, healer firebrand isn't really a big thing in in ranked anymore (symbolbrand wasn't super common either actually) Arcdps wasnt at fault > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *While kiting*. If the Ranger just wants to run, he will run. But he can only do that while in melee, and he cant do it while kiting. Thats the keyword. > > > > > > > > So what you do is, you run a bit, pew pew a little, run a bit, pew pew a little, kiting doesn't mean continuously attacking. > > > > > > > > > > That doesnt work. Youre not moving faster than a perma-swiftness Rev. Rangers mobility is great when it does things like Swoop, or activating lesser lightning Zephyr. You cant constantly swap between longbow and GS in-combat though. You gotta stick to one. And then it doesnt really work. > > > > Why would you "stick to one" weapon? That's just poor playing. That's like camping one element on elementalist. Ranger's weapon swap a lot in combat. > > > > Sure. Good luck kiting with a bleeding Greatsword. You swap to greatsword, use mobility skill away from enemy Swap to bow pewpew til you feel threatened Swap back to greatsword, use mobility skill away from enemy Repeat > > Rangers can get perma swiftness in a lot of different ways most of the time by picking up already strong pets/traits/skills. Rev actually has to make sacrifices to get it. > > > > They cant. There isnt anything to add here, they just cant get perma swiftness. Hell, they struggle to have any kind of significant swiftness uptime. To the point that some people unironically run Rune of the Speed. On the other hand, Rev just has to play Herald (which is the best version) and press a single button that they always have on their bar. Thats not at a sacrifice at all. Resounding timbre is pretty good for core ranger soulbeast has it even easier > > Ranger is a faster class, by a lot. Even before taking into consideration that they have stealth, a knockback, cripple and possibly soulbeast merge skills available to help them get away. > > > > When using Swoop and other dashes to move, yes. If theyre on Longbow? No. Theyre significantly slower, they dont even have perma-swiftness, let alone Revenants perma-swiftness + Rising Momentum. And thats not even involving Chill. And yes, they have a knockback. If that lands, they can kite. If it does not, they cannot. Im pretty sure I said that. Rising momentum doesn't stack. Also rev can't do swiftness while on Demon without picking some up bad traits. Your chill is 900 range and on Demon, hard to use at the same time as facet of elements, no? > > > > > > > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > > > > > > > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 sec in WvW and PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 sec is PvE > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might notice that button is absent on that skillpage. You also might note that the official patchnotes do not note a split between WvW and PvP. If its split ,its a bug or an undocumented change. > > > > > > > > Fair enough it's missing on the wiki, but there is a split ingame. It even says so on the skill and was there since it's introduction. > > > > > > > > > > Fair enough. I hadnt paid attention to it because it wasnt in the patch notes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None, actually. There are some that are more challenging, but none that are outright unwinnable. And there is more to it, yes, but there is a certain baseline of how many clears you need to have a potential chance of winning. You were below it, until I realised that of course youre *also* playing condi rev. You dont have the massive damage gap because you also have their level of damage, and you have resistance to shore up. Its a mirror. > > > > > > > > Actually condi rev/ren (which is not herald) is heavily disfavored against condi herald, much more than any power build is. > > > > > > > > > > You cant claim both this and say "Oh Im totally fine with just 4 clears". Thats just contradicting yoruself. Anyway, no, its not, because at least it has comparable damage, rather than a fraction of the damage. > > > > It is. I can just accept having bad matchups and in fights that arent just 1v1 it's really not a massive problem. (though condi herald has some extremely bs things, such as true nature - demon being unavoidable and massive). > > > > But if its a bad matchup, and its a common matchup (as it should be, its the best class), then you should be taking almost entirely condi damage. Yet you claimed you take far more power damage. Except it's not more common than power builds, there's still way more power thieves/power warriors /power rangers etc than there's condi Heralds. > > > > The resistance uptime is fairly insignificant. > > > > > > > > > > At least 40%. More if you have any concentration, which I believe that build would have. > > > > "At least 40%" > > > > The trait has 5 sec cd and 2 sec duration, that means in theory it can give 40%. In practice you'd struggle to break 35% even camping demon. > > > > Concentration, it increases boon duration, and you get it for free. Condi herald gains a whole 4% boon duration (60 concentration) > > GIven that you spend about 50% of the time on another legend, breaking 20% would be pretty hard. Condi rev most assuredly does not run any concentration (well it runs 3% boon duration from 45 to all stats food, but that's it). > > > > You spend much less than 50% on the other legend. You start on it for boons, then swap to Demon, and stay in demon until the enemy dies (which is usually before the cooldown is even up). Also, Reinforced Potency. So they recover no energy and don't use invoke torment. Demon is energy hungry. > > The sPvP build however runs Fiendish Tenacity, Spirit Boon and rune of resistance and actually has very high resistance uptime. But condi herald in WvW runs rune of tormenting and Permeating Pestilence (and quite often also Incensed Response) and has much lower resistance uptime. > > > > The sPvP version does also run a lot of resistance, yeah. It runs much much more. > > > > > > > > > > Because they could oneshot condi necro. But power damage is a lot lower, and condi damage is not. Survivability on condi builds is arguably even higher now. Both dont really counter condi necro anymore. > > > > > > > > They still counter necro (thought full bunker necro can probably survive them now, but never kill them either so), by design, they never 1 shot condi necro, they would burst then reset. Repeating the process until the necro died. doing at most about 1/3rd of the necro's hp in each burst, the necro having no options for healing up as quickly. > > > > > > > > > > Uh, no, they did oneshot. Burst and reset doesnt work for thief, because then the Scourge turns around and either blasts the thief for a bunch of condis (which the thief struggles to get rid of and most likely dies to), or if its a power build does Ghastly Claws or Reaper Shroud stuff. For Mesmer, resetting wasnt really much of an option. Too long of a cooldown on any way to reset. > > > > No, the thief does CC+Burst then uses a mobility skill to get away before the necro can fight back. Then repeats the proccess until the necro dies. > > > > Ah yes, the thief uses CC and then bursts. Now, uh, just remind me. What CC is the thief using exactly? I checked, and the only one it has is Daze, on a 20 second cooldown (Swipe). Its also just Daze. As for mobility, thats also pretty limited. In fact, given that this means that the thief has 20 seconds between burst attempts (10 seconds to swap back to D/P, another 10 seconds to be able to swap back to Shortbow. Also, the Daze cooldown). The Necro can legit just walk away in 20 seconds. That process simply put doesnt work. It also doesnt work because the Necro can fight back faster, especially if throwing CC himself, but I digress. Usually it was stealth up, steal +backstab, some AAs with headshots mixed until low on initiative, teleport away, repeat Necro can't just "walk away" because thief is much faster > > > > > > > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope they're really not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are, down to the builds and their usage. Its rare for WvW roaming to have a build that is entirely different from sPvP. Right now there are ... none. I guess SA rifle, but I wouldnt even say its a real thing in WvW. > > > > > > > > No, thats just wrong, sPvP and WvW are extremely different. > > > > > > > > > > And yet the builds and their usage are nearly identical. As I said, the only difference I could see was SA rifle, and SA rifle isnt really a thing either. > > > > Nope. > > > > Go ahead then, find a major difference in the builds and their usage. In what builds. > > > > > > > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ugh, cut off. > Marauders is also the best power stat in WvW. See, pretty comparable. sPvP is such a different ecosystem that it is not comparable. > I already explained the burn guard combo. Hell, the ones you mention are too slow for burst. That one wouldn't kill a fly tbh. I hate burnguard as much as anyone, but complaints should be about the correct parts. Either way we seem to have vastly different views on this. I don't think that this will really lead anywhere, we can probably both just leave it at this tbh. I know I am most likely going to leave this unless something interesting or drastically different is said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > Thats not instant. It lets the opponent react if they see you. > > > > > > You can do it fairly close to instant, like guard hammer 2+Judge basically > > > > > > > 0.75 isnt instant. Its kinda slow actually. > > It's instant for the target. You judge intervention mid cast obviously. > Only if they dont see it. If they do see it they can dodge on the animation and get the other actually instant stuff for free. > > > > > I really do think burn guard is unhealthy in a lot of ways, but some burst combo with judge's intervention isn't why. Nor does it instagib > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is why, and it does (nearly) instagib. The first tick does up to 80% of their health, and the next tick kills them if they dont instantly cleanse (And you just burn em again if they do). > > > > > > They do too many burn stacks with some skills (notably scepter 4 and SoJ), but judge intervention combos are rare and easy to counter. > > > > > > > Theyre common, and the only way to "counter" them is to hope you survive the first tick you cant stop. > > I haven't had anyone judges intervention me in ages > Consider yourself very lucky then. > > > > > SoJ (specifically eternal armory) is overpowered > > > > > The throw flame part of Zealot's Flame could do with fewer stacks/longer duration (3 stacks of burning in one go is very rare for WvW) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eh, SoJ is good in large scale, but much worse in small scale as its too small of a radius. > > > > > > SoJ is the best skill on burn guard by a large margin, it's where most of their burst comes from > > > > > > > Its far too slow to be "burst", and its also too easily avoided. > > Eh the immob+SoJ is their relevant best, judge +some procs can just be shrugged off > The former isnt burst, its sustain, and requires immob and a way to ensure they stay there (or someone does). Hence why its only good in large scale. And no, Judge + some procs cant just be shrugged off, unless youre an HP sponge like Necro. > > > > > > > > How about another one? Condi Rev. Legend Swap into invoke X. Lets put it short. What tells exist? Well, in theory, the animation from the legend swap. Except, the animation appears just after youve been hit. Your only bet is looking at their hotbar the entire time and watching out for the changing icon for their legend. Which requires you to have them targetted and requires you intensely stare at a tiny picture. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about Condi Scourge? Well, finally we do have a tell. Kind of. Manifest Sand Shade does have a delay, and you can see it coming. The problem is the same cant be said for most of their boon corruption, and if youre fear youre still screwed. Oh and they can just Garish Pillar you (no tell, instant) and then manifest sand shade under you. At which point ,same as before. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So please, do tell me what nonexistent "tells" Im supposed to "learn". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi scourge is just useless, I am sorry but almost nothing should lose 1v1 to condi scourge. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whining about condi rev is more understandable as the build is actually strong. But condi scourge is not even good. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I included a small scale skirmish rather than 1v1 example. Gotta keep it varied. > > > > > > > > > > Condi Scourge is terrible in any scale of fights. > > > > > > > > > Hardly. Its not great in large scale because firebrands, but in small scale skirmishes its pretty great. > > > > > > It's bad in all fights > > > > > > Outside of ghastly breach it does very little > > > > > > It's squishy, lacks meaningful group support, the circles are small and delayed, the dmg output is very low. > > > > > > > You trust yourself so little? > > > > > > I don't trust myself at all, but that's not the point I was making. > > > > > > > Ugh, it cut off again. I hate when it does that. > > > > > > Yes... Same happened to me > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > It does well enough. And no, it really doesnt. It has a really good stunbreak (Elixir S), but its only one, and its on a *60* second cooldown. The Dragon stunbreak is a *25* second cooldown. And you can have 2, Engineer cant really afford to. As for stability, Throw Elixir B. Thats it. Thats the only one. If Im facing Condi, I cant even use that one. But its no comparision to Jalis. > > > > > > Elixir U is a 32 sec (40 sec without HGH) cd stunbreak that gives stability. A large amount of good engi skills has stunbreaks attached to them (elixir gun, slick shoes, thumper turret etc) > > > > > > > There is a reason people done use these. Elixir U gives stability, but for only *1* second, so its only useful against people who just throw CC at an already CCd target (i.e. bad players). The others are just, not good anymore. > > Please please read your skills before posting > > It gives 1 sec in sPvP > > It gives 6 sec by default in WvW > Did they not split it between PvE and PvP/WvW? I couldve sworn I read that in the patchnotes. > > > Far more than necro or rev has. > > > > > > > Engineer has a decent selection, but here is the problem. One of your slots is for a weapon kit, or Photonic Barrier/Hard Light Arena if youre Holo. One is for stuff like Elixir B or C. You only get to run 1 stunbreak. On most builds, anyway. > > Elixir B/C aren't exactly similar skills... > Its the X-prevention slot. Condi, Elixir C, CC, Elixir B. They fulfill similar roles against different targets. > One good stunbreak is one more than Rev has tbh > The Dragon stunbreak is one of the better ones, actually. Really short cooldown. > > > > > I like that you picked the other archetypical "weak to CC" class, necro (well reaper). Condi revenant shares almost the exact same set of weaknesses that condi reaper used to have (and that power reaper atm has to a degree). > > > > > > > > > > Thief is much much better against CC, they're possibly the class in the game that has the best tools for dealing with CC. (shadowstep is the strongest stunbreak in the game, for example) > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre really not. Theyre actually probably the worst. They have no stability whatsoever (well, almost. If you steal on a mesmer as a non-DE, you can get stability. Otherwise, you cannot), and their stunbreaks both have *extremely* long cooldowns (50 seconds pretty much on all of them), and also additional functions you have to use them for sometimes (funny that you mention Shadowstep. Shadowstep is one of thieves very few good condi clears. Sometimes youre forced to burn it for that, and you cant even save it for stuns). And you usually cant even run 2. > > > > > > Being 1500 range away is much better than stab > > > > > > > 1200 range, actually. Its also one of your 2 only good anti-condi options. Having to choose between those 2 is bad. But yeah, its a good one. Long cooldown though. > > The skill has 1200, assuming you're not inside your enemy and start moving instantly your roughly 1500 away, the exact number doesn't really matter. The point is you're too far away to be cced. > Youre also too far away to fight the opponent. Unless you want to immediately turn tail and run, youll get back within range. But yes, its good for running. > > > Stealth is also better than stab > > > > > > > Its a *lot* worse actually. Blinding Powder usually stealths in melee, which is basically just "free damage for your opponent" as they still know roughly where you are, and can hit you with AoE and cleave. > > You can pick when you use your skills... > With stunbreaks, the skills you use when you need to, well, break out of a stun? Not really. Stealth does jack all for that. > > > Avoids are also better than stab > > > > > > > For avoiding future CC? No, actually. Evades dont last long enough for that. > > Channing them and combining them with movement skills is absolutely the best way to avoid CC > Thats the best for running away, but not for staying in a fight. Sides, you can also dodge after your stability runs out. > > > Also blinding powder does give a little stab tbf > > > > > > > 1 second, only good against bad players, see above. > > > > > Permaswiftness isn't exactly impressive in 2020. Also permaswiftness on Condi Rev means you're either in dragon with the facet on (so only herald and that stops them from using the leap). > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is impressive. Keep in mind, perma-swiftness is the main reason to play Daredevil on thief, and perma-swiftness is less relatively impressive on them as they have shortbow 5. And thief still mostly uses Daredevil right now. > > > > > > Acrobatics can do the same thing > > > Trickery can by itself give high swiftness uptime > > > > > > > It cant actually. Not now that Acrobatics was nerfed to hell. Thats why even S/D dropped Acrobatics for Trickery. > > It has swiftness on dodge. Also not continuing this, way too off topic. > Yes, and it does not have *nearly* enough dodge regen to be able to permanently maintain it. > > > Daredevil is mostly taken for Endurance management, Staff, Clearing, General Tankiness or it's synergy with D/P > > > > > > > Uh, it gives you practically no endurance management, Staff isnt viable, noone uses Escapist's fortitude anymore, the tankiness *is* a nice side benefit, and it has abolutely *no* synergy with D/P. No its pretty much only taken for Dash. > > This has gone too far off topic. > Perhaps, but Im still curious what you thought synergised with D/P. Pulmonary Impact? That trait hasnt been used even before the patch when it was just underpowered. Now, post-nerf, its completely useless. > > > > > Or it means you have rapid flow, which means you give up a lot or dmg or tankiness, which is most assuredly not meta. > > > > > You can also get it by using mace 3 on Jalis Bridge, but that's energy intensive, hardly permanent and gives up a lot of energy and important cooldowns. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Most Revs I see use Rapid Flow, actually. > > > > > > You give up 2 fantastic traits for it, it's generally not used. > > > > > > Spirit Boon gives all the best boons (Resistance/Prot/Stab depending on if you run Glint or Jalis) > > > > > > Incensed Response gives a ton of might. 5 stacks everytime you legend swap or CC an enemy. > > > > > > > I can only tell you that a lot of the revs Im facing are clearly running it. > > Their loss > > > > > > The only things that you can reliably chase down are Necros, Guardians (but not dragonhunters). Everything else is faster than you are. > > > > > > > > > > Even other condi revs can usually slip away from you > > > > > > > > > > > > > Actually, with perma-swiftness and Rising Momentum (the only stacking movement speed buff in the game, making you faster than anyone effectively), you can catch up to anyone who is kiting, and all but 4 builds that are running away. > > > > > > In my admittedly limited test of Rising Momentum it did not stack with swiftness, wiki also says it doesn't. If you have any video showing it stacking I would be very interested. > > > > > > Also Rising Momentum is generally not picked on Condi Herald over Core Value. > > > > > > > Im basing that on the patch notes from when it was introduced, and I know it used to work. Maybe its bugged? > > Who knows, but a statement like that should be based on more than a very old patch note. > I wouldnt call 1.5 years "very old". Sides, I did check last year and it worked. Thats the "I know it used to work" part. I havent checked since. > > > > Core aspects can change. Especially if they bring nothing good to the table. All condis current state, and condi clears, do is make combat worse. Youre forced to pick a certain skilltype just to be able to fight them (while power has no equivalent skilltype), classes that have less access to said skilltype are just outright screwed, and said skilltype, and its inconsistent access, makes combat very binary. If you have enough that damage type is useless, if you dont its unbeatable. > > > > > > Post is already long enough, suffice to say I disagree with this, but it's very hypothetical and some parts have to be sacrificed. > > > > > > > > There are aspects of the cleansing system I don't like too however, specifically how it's so extremely binary and how you have little control over what conditions you actually clear. Which can be frustrating in some situations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Its precisely because they can be cleansed that its so binary. Thats the problem. Oh and if you had more control over what conditions you cleanse, that would break things further, making condi builds useless again, until they get powercrept and were back to the status quo. > > > > > > Making clears either prioritize or only clear a certain categories of condis would actually help a lot. > > > > > > Heal skills would generally only clear damaging ones > > > > > > Movement skills/breaks would generally only clear debilitating ones > > > > > > General clear skills (like elixir C or "Shake it off") could either clear a 50/50 split, or just work like they do now. > > > > That would preserve the problem of it being exceptionally binary. > > Well it would alleviate a lot of other problems without redesigning the game into a much less interesting one. It wouldnt alleviate any, and changing conditions and clears would redesign the game into a much *more* interesting one. The one we have right now is much less interesting, because condis, and the gameplay they create, are all incredibly binary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > Far as I know, Garish Pillar has no telegraph. It also strikes around the scourge, so not standing near a sand shade isnt sufficient. > > All of them have 0.5 sec delay and telegraph. > Delay, yes, Telegraph, not that I could find. Maybe it just gets drowned out in all the other VFX a scourge spawns. > It strikes around the shades or the scourge. Not both. It used to be both. > Yeah my point was that the scourge can wait with placing a sand shade until you get feared. > > > > > > > Healing power isn't useless. If there was an actual condi meta I would be swapping to plaguedoctor in a heartbeat. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unless youre going hard on it and going for AoE heals, yeah it is. You gain less from it than any other defensive stat. There is no if, were in a condi meta. But noone is swapping to it. Why? Its not good. > > > > > > > > > > First off, were not in a condi meta, there has never been a condi meta in gw2 WvW, power has always been more common. > > > > > > > > > > > > > We absolutely are in a condi meta, and there have been several. Condi is *far* more common than power right now. > > > > > > That would imply over 50% of all dmg builds primarily do condi dmg, that's not the case. > > > > > > > I mean, for one that is in fact true, but no. It just means that the majority of players are on condi builds. Which they are. > > > No. Denial doesnt change that. > > > > > Secondly, healing power doesn't magically become better just because you stack it, it scales linearly. In fact the first points provide a bigger % increase to your personal healing than the later ones. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is that unless youre a support, like say Firebrand, or you go all-in on it to maximize your heals, like say Weaver, its just worse. > > > > > > Your HPS is always competing with your opponents DPS, increasing HPS is generally the best way to fight against condi as the dmg isnt particularly bursty. > > > > > > Your survival time is just > > > > > > HP / (Enemy DPS - Incoming HPS) > > > > > > Increasing HPS can be more effective than increasing HP, just like decreasing enemy dps can be the most effective method. > > > > > > Meaning that the longer the fight goes, the more effective healing power becomes compared to vitality. > > > > > > > Only if you can survive long enough. And only if you dont keep hitting your vitality cap in parts of the fight. Both of those tend to be a strike *against* healing power. And no, HPS isnt generally the best way to fight against condi (its clears -> HP ->>>> Heals), as the damage is in fact *very* bursty, and also tends to mess with your healing since so many of them have poison, if not as a main damage condition, then as a cover one. > > So you clear before you heal, common sense. > If you clear, you usually dont need to heal. > If you hit your vitality cap frequently while playing without a healer, you're already wasting healing, this is generally (but not always) suboptimal. > A lot of healing is persistent or on-X effects. I cant just choose to delay Big Boomer, yknow? > > > > > Apothecary/Settler is already a great option compared to dire on quite a few builds, espec if you don't have a pocket healer (on condi weaver for example). > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi builds don't generally have more anti condi measure than their power counterpart. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Says the guy playing a condi build thats all about condi transfer and resistance. Burn guardian of course has Guardians abundance of condi clears. Necro has Death magics condi damage reduction and condi transfer. They do. > > > > > > > > > > Herald is all about transfers. > > > > > > > > > > The sPvP build is all about resistance > > > > > > > > > > Condi Revenant/Renegade (NOT HERALD) with rune of tormenting is definitively not about either transfers or resistance. I played with Acolyte of Torment a while and still didn't struggle with condi dmg, I only swapped back to demonic defiance because immob so common and a certain death sentence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The WvW build is also all about resistance. Its the trademark of the bleeding legend. > > > > > > The bleed legend is kalla. Which doesn't have any resistance skills. > > > > > > > Bleeding in this case is not literal. Its a replacement for an expletive. > > Perhaps not a great choice of words while discussing condi builds > ... Perhaps. > > > Resistance is most commonly found on Mallyx, the torment legend. > > > > > > Mallyx has 3 sources of resistance in total. > > > Pain Absorption, which is terrible for smallscale (30 energy!!) > > > Demonic Defiance (2 sec resistance on demon stance skill, 5 sec cd, realistically 15% uptime, give or take) > > > Spirit Boon (2 sec resistance on entering demon, 10% uptime if you swap on cooldown 100% of the time, which you of course don't so somwhere between 5-8%) > > > > > > > Pain Absorption is fine, its a stunbreak and a lot of resistance if you need it. Demonic Defiance is 40+% uptime, especially thanks to the fact that the build gets some extra concentration. I dont know why you do such a bad attempt at underselling your class, everyone knows its busted. Ya aint fooling noone. > > Pain absoprtion doesn't need buffs imo, but it's not a good skill, it's a terrible stunbreak, and a mediocre anti condi skill outside of large groups. > > However it shouldn't be buffed, it's okay that condi rev is weak to CC. > > The concentration from herald, herald is not my class. > > I don't run herald. They're *very* different. > > Also there is absolutely no way you will ever reach 40%+ on a normal condi rev build using just demonic defiance > > 2/5 = 0.4 making 40% the theoretical cap. > > You can't activate this trait perfectly > > You can only activate it while in Demon > > Even if you count the 7% boon duration herald has (4%trait, 3% food) if you spend 66% of your time in Demon (way more than normal) , somehow activating demonic defiance off cooldown, which is extremely unrealistic. > > You would get 28.25% (slightly rounded up) uptime. That's not even remotely close to 40%+. In a realistic scenario you should struggle to break 20%. > You spend more than 66% of time in demon form, unless youre fighting a low damage bunker class, in which case you dont need Resistance. > > > > > > > Power builds aren't rare. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you prefer the word uncommon ,sure lets go with that. Theyre still seen a lot less. > > > > > > > > > > They're by far the most common build type. > > > > > > > > > > > > > In Large Scale? Yes. In Small Scale? Far and away, no. > > > > > > In both power is more common. > > > > > > > Again, accross several hours daily, several weeks in a row, I can tell you Condition damage in small scale is *far* more common. Its about an 80-20 split in its favour. > > You either have an extreme confirmation bias, or you're lying. > > > > If this is due to balance, preference or cost I obviously don't know, but power is far more common in all situations. Which doesn't mean that it's stronger, it just means more common, irrelevant of how it performs compared to condi. > > > > > > > Its far less common in small scale. *Far* less common. > > No > Denial still doesnt change that. > > > > > > > Decimate defenses has never been optimal. Chilling Vivtory was always better soul eater was sometimes better (been reworked so many times that icr when it was better/worse) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No its been optimal for quite a while. Its chilling victory that never was (hence why its not being run, people run Soul Eater). > > > > > > > > > > Chilling victory was by far the better choice back before soul eater become what it is today. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats when Decimate was used. Chilling was never really used. > > > > > > Yes it was, especially back when blighter's boon was the only option. > > > > > > > > > > 33% extra crit is more than enough, in full marauder (with power infusions and no crit on runes/sigils) power necro reaches 93% crit on shroud, 113% with fury, which is 13% more than they need. Being able to move 195 precision to ferocity would obviously be an improvement. (ye Valkyrie exists, but it's less stat dense). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cant rely on always having fury, and Reaper exists outside of Shroud too. Even if people had the possibility to swap to that stat, they wouldnt. As a matter of fact, Reapers arent locked into having Marauders on all pieces, they could drop them for anything they want. But they dont. The meta build runs full Marauders. > > > > > > > > > > In certain groups you can, it depends on your teamcomp. Obviously you build for the comp you have. Full marauder is definitively not optimal if you can reliably get fury. > > > > > > > > > > The effective power difference between marauder and the hypothetical FeroMarauder outside of shroud would be fairly small, Inside of shroud with fury the different would be quite big. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even if you reliably can get fury, it can reliably be stripped. Relying on boons is a fools errand currently. > > > > > > No it isn't. > > > > > > Also if the benefit while having fury is really big and the downside while not having fury is rather small.... > > > > > > > Yeah it is. Thats why they run full Marauders instead of leaving things up to chance. > > They generally run full marauder because the can't assume that an ally will give them fury (as necro for some reason has their personal fury in the condi traitline). > > In a group where fury is provided marauder is not optimal. > Even in a group where fury is provided, you go full Marauder. The large scale version of Reaper goes full Marauder. For that matter, I just realised, why are you valuing fury that much on Reaper? It doesnt have anything that synergises with it. > > > > > > > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except when facing condition scourge or rev. Where you in fact do need to do that. Well, if you cant just transfer condis and have high resistance uptime. > > > > > > > > > > Condi scourge is just plain bad, especially 1v1, I would put it somewhere close to the bottom if I made a 1v1 tier list, there's very few builds that should struggle against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, used to be that way, isnt anymore. > > > > > > Condi scourge got nuked this patch and it was bad pre-patch. > > > > > > > > But condi rev has a 8 sec cooldown on Mace 3 and can only be in demon roughly 50% of the time. They need to do both to burst you, or EtD+Banish, which is extremely energy intensive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 is not the main worry, but yes, it has a cooldown. And yes, but you only need those 50% (unless the opponent is also a condi build). > > > > > > > > > All of it is very well telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except for the pulsing AoE, Invoke Torment, Call of the Demon, on-X traits, so on and so forth. > > > > > > Call is not telegraphed but doesn't do a whole lot. > > > > > > > Its one of many things. > > > The pulsing AoE is heavily telegraphed > > > > > > > Technically yes, but you cant dodge every pulse (for that matter timing the pulses is a pain because the animation doesnt line up at all). > > The telegraph shows where you shouldn't be, obviously dodging every pulse of something is a bad idea > Would be lovely if you could just decide to walk away, but chill is there to ruin your day. > > > Invoke torment is also telegraphed. > > > > > > > Weve been over this. You get the telegraph *After* youre already hit. Its not telegraphed at all. > > The legend swap animation happens before. > Sadly, no. Its delayed, and it happens just after youre hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, that would not say much given that it depends on who youre facing, how often, and so on. But I can tell you this, every time I look through my combat log after roaming around in WvW for a couple hours, its almost entirely condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Look through combat log" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Use arcdps. The combat log is trash. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The combat log perfectly represents the damage youve taken. Arcdps only makes it easier to read, but has issues with how it counts damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It doesn't have any issues. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I look through logs after every evening of smallscale WvW and also shortly after each fight. With an average group size of 3 (sometimes 2, rarely 4). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I extremely rarely take more than 30% condi dmg. Much less 50% > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If youre playing with a group, odds are you have AoE condi cleanses. Perhaps even once you dont notice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I actually would, because I know the build of everyone I play with. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that a tempest isn't gonna throw me any clears, cause the only group clears it has is 1 clear on the shout heal and overload water, which is used very sparsely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I know that the other dps in my group doesn't actually have any AoE clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Even so I can look at logs and conclude that I usually get about 1 clear/30 sec from others, hardly a massive amount. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water Overload clears 4 conditions. I also cant imagine they wouldnt be running the water traitline which adds some more clears. But, if what you say is true, then youre just extremely lucky with your enemies. Especially because if what you say is true, a single Condition Revenant should rip and tear through your entire team. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Water doesn't actually give much clear of you take powerful aura. Especially if you also take soothing disruption, which the tempest in question does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said in most fights it averages out to 1 clear/25-35 sec. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overload water isn't exactly something you can spam when outnumbered since you will just get CCed get water on 20 sec cd and die. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also we just cc and kill the condi revs before they do. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is also weak to power so you shouldn't really struggle with them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Condi rev is not weak to power. At *all*. Also if youre outnumbering to the point where you can CC and kill the condi rev without him fighting back, sure. But then you can do the exact same thing with every single build in the game, and you should be taking absolutely 0 damage. And even then Im gonna have to doubt it, because just Invoke Torment + Embrace the Darkness would still be ticking and completely obliterate your team with your lack of cleanses ensuring your untimely demise. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well invoke torment is a whole 1 stack of torment > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > EtD is 1 stack /sec, 3 if they can consistently use skills. Hardly anything that anyone with healing and reasonable clears would die to. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's also all 240 radius, just don't stand on it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sigil of cleansing isn't lack of clears lmao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 stack of burning, poison and Torment instantly. Or that would be it. But then you also get Torment from Call of the Demon. Oh but then you also get 3 poison from Doom ontop of that. And probably another 2 stacks of torment from Sigil of Torment. Suddenly that turns from not that noticable to a major problem, doesnt it. And thats just one button. 240 is also a pretty big radius, and you want to CC them, remember? Yes, Sigil of Cleansing alone is a lack of clears in a meta where you need to be able to cleanse 10-15 conditions to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Olay so they run doom+torment and no permeating pestilence. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they have no clears at all in their build except for true nature Demon, that sounds like a bad rev build. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The little resistance from Demon is def not enough to not just get immobilized to death in every fight for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Also 240 is tiny, invoke torment also has an animation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ignoring that they have a ton of resistance, that they have *2* weaponsets so more Sigils, Hardening Persistence ontop of Infuse Light and True Nature demon, sure. And no, its more than enough. 240 is almost the distance of a full dodge. It does have an animation, but the conditions are applied on the first frame, the animation is just there to signify that you were hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The animation is them legend swapping, invoke is 1 sec after. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah, looks like youre half-right. Its half a second after the legend is swapped. Sadly, the animation is also delayed. By the time you see it, youre already hit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can dodge it tho, but ye maybe it's 1/2 sec, I just know to dodge when I see a condi rev swapping legend. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point I was making is that by the point that you can see condi rev swapping legend (unless youre starting at their hotbar) you are already hit. > > > > > > > > > > Idk, I manage to dodge most of them, when it's relevant to do so. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luck, good prediction or staring at the hotbar. The only 3 options. > > > > > > So one has to play well to avoid getting hit, shocker. > > > > > > > > You don't even need to stare at their ui, you can just quickly math how much energy they spent and how long they've been in the stance and predict it fairly easily. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im quite quick with mental calculations, and thats still asking too much from me. I dont imagine people who have less of an affinity have that as an option. > > > > > > I do it effortlessly with 1 enemy rev, as they get more it obviously becomes harder to keep track, it's really more of a mix between some very simply math and "feeling", having played the class helps immensely with this, like with any class, the best way to learn how to counter it is to play it some. > > > > > > But tbh even just counting to 10 is usually good enough > > > > > > > I mean if you mean the Rev is bad enough to be so predictable, sure. But I dont face bad Condi Revs, I face good ones. > > Well if they're not swapping when low on energy they're playing very inefficient. > Sometimes being efficient makes you predictable, and as a result inefficient. Same logic as thieves that sandbag backstabs. > > > > > Much easier to avoid than most bursty power skills are tbh. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hah, no, not even remotely in the slightest. Most bursty power skills have bright telegraphs and cast times of over 0.75 seconds. Some even over a second. > > > > > > Compare Arcing Slice to Echoing Eruption. > > > > > > Echoing Eruption has a much much clearer tell. Most condi skills have a much bigger tell than arcing slice, which can crit for 7k+ even post-nerfs against full toughness gear builds. (no I am not advocating for a nerf to arcing slice, I am just trying to put it in perspective) > > > > > > > Of course, if you take the most telegraphed (which is highly unusual for its kind) condi skill and compare it to one of the least telegraphed, you get that kinda result. Though even then Arcing Slice has a telegraph. Most condi skills have *no* tell *whatsoever*, some have a *much smaller* tell than Arcing slice, *very few* have a bigger tell than arcing slice. Also actually Arcing Slice has a pretty big tell nowadays, they added VFX to it at some point. > > Most condi skills are fairly telegraphed, at least condi rev and scourge ones, burnguard mostly too (which doesn't stop burnguard from being problematic) > Ive gone over it, they are barely telegraphed at all. Burn guards arent telegraphed *at all* (Instant, remember?), and other condi builds are worse. > Thief/mesmer doesn't have particularly telegraphed condi skills, but their power skills aren't much more telegraphed either > When used from out of combat stealth, yes. When used in-combat, stealth or no stealth? Actually pretty damn telegraphed. And then there Death's Judgement, *the* most telegraphed skill in the game. > It's really more of a class thing than condi vs power. > Power Ranger is very telegraphed. Condi ranger doesnt have any telegraphs on most of its condi damage. Power Engineer is very telegraphed. Condi Engineer doesnt have any telegraphs on most of its condi damage. Ele ... actually a bit hard to tell, given that Lightning Rod is the flavour of the month right now. Scourge is definitely a lot less telegraphed than Reaper. Burn guard a lot less telegraphed than, iunno, power burst DH. So on and so forth. For every class, the condi build is either not telegraphed at all, or a lot less. Its a condi vs power thing, not a class thing. The biggest culprit is on-X effects. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The times I do are: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1v1 with condi builds (lol) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Eating a big transfer from transfer herald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The time I get stuck in SoJ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My support essentially has no group clears (WET tempest with powerful aura and no trooper runes, usually does roughly 10% of my clears according to logs) and I mostly just have sigil of cleansing as my clears, so hardly overloading on anti-condi stuff. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is with permanent protection as well so I "should" be taking more condi dmg than power. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then perhaps you just got extremely lucky. Its *very* rare for me to take more power than condi damage. Obviously, most roamers I meet are condi because its better, and they do more damage, because its better. And keep in mind, Im playing Core Engineer with Elixir C and its *still* not enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I got extremely "lucky" in almost every fight, every evening since the patch across a multitude of various matchups. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sounds very likely. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > About as likely as being able to survive a condi rev with just Sigil of Cleansing. Which is to say, not possible. Ergo, you mustve been able to avoid Condi Revs entirely. Because if you actually faced one, you would get condi bombed, use Sigil of cleansing, get condi bombed *again* and die in 2 seconds. Given that, it means that if youre not taking that much condi damage, you just arent facing condi builds. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Have you tried combining cleansing with dodging key skills, counterpressuring, stunning them etc? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes? Do you think that works, though? Because their "key skills" are pulsing AoEs, instant AoEs and other undodgable things. If just CCing was enough to kill them, it would be enough to kill anyone. Counterpressuring would work if any attempt to pressure them doesnt also get me killed, and way faster than they are. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you're talking about condi rev still. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pulsing AoEs can be moved out of. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mace 3 on rev is the key pressure skill they have, it is very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > CtA is also very telegraphed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Searing fissure too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not if you want to pressure them. Well, even then moving out is rather hard on a class that also happens to constantly chill you while youre severely lacking in condi clears. And sure, the others are reasonably telegraphed, but they come after youre already screwed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So they're somehow constantly chilling you while keeping EtD up, that's not possible energywise, if try to do it dodge and laugh at them as they're out of energy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Revenants have this neat little trick where swapping weapons or legends fully refreshes their energy. They also run Hydromancy. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They run hydromancy, torment and doom, all on the same bar, neat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They can weaponswap? Doom and Torment is on their main weaponset, i.e. mace/axe. Hydromancy is on their other weaponset. That also has chilling isolation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sword isn't used in WvW on condi rev, with good reason, it's used in the spvp build because that build already does a noticeable amount of power dmg and has the stats for it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The roaming build uses sword/shield. Youve also got it the *exact* wrong way around. Its the WvW build that leans into a hybrid playstyle. The PvP build is pure condi. > > > > > > > > > > I thought you were whining about trailblazer being too strong... But trailblazer is pure condi. > > > > > > > > > > > > > My point was that condi as a whole is too strong. And that it doesnt at all need the free survivability it can get. Condi Rev in WvW decided to go hybrid because their survivability is great even without free stats, and their damage is absurd. > > > > > > Any condi+power stat combination is by definition a hybrid build, there's really quite few of them. > > > > > > > By that logic pure condi doesnt exist in PvP because there isnt anything but condi + power or power adjacent stats. Thats obviously nonsense. Hybrid means it leans heavily into both damage types. Carrion Rev in PvP does not. If it had access to Dire, it would play Dire. > > sPvP does in fact only have hybrid and power builds. > > If dire (or trailblazer, settler, apothecary etc) existed then it would have pure condi builds. > Thats silly, given that there pretty much just condi builds who arent allowed to be any more busted than they already are by replacing the useless power stat with another defensive stat. > > > Condi rev/ren (or herald for that matter) does not play hybrid in WvW, that's a great way of getting yourself killed. > > > > > > > Except it does. Its done for a while. > > No > Dunno what to tell you other than what theyve been doing. > > > > > If they run sword/shield in trailblazer, then you get 10 sec of them being essentially unable to pressure oyu in any meaningful way. > > > > > > > > > > The sPvP one can't be pure condi, because it has power as a major stat, because Sage/Carrion are the only options really. > > > > > > > > > > > > > The power stat on Carrion hardly increases the damage it does. Power Damage needs 3 stats after all. > > > > > > I was recently "forced" to play some amount of sPvP again recently, it was an awful experience btw. > > > > > > But I did play carrion/sage condi herald in it mostly. > > > > > > According to arcdps in most fights I did 25-40% power dmg (varying wildly from fight to fight), which is quite significant. This was playing Mace/Axe+Mace/Shield as I really am not a fan of sword on condi rev. > > > > > > > Unless you were fighting Firebrands who just completely shut down your condi damage entirely (not implausible), in which case you just fought in the wrong place at the wrong time, this is probably ArcDPS messing up the damage count again. And hey, I get it, Condi Rev isnt quite as broken in sPvP as WvW (still broken). > > Nope normal fights against a variety of builds, healer firebrand isn't really a big thing in in ranked anymore (symbolbrand wasn't super common either actually) > > Arcdps wasnt at fault > Having played Condi Rev before (for all of 4 games, granted), I can tell you the if the first isnt true, ArcDPS was 100% at fault. Your power damage is, on average, around 300 per second. Your condi damage, several thousand per second. There is no way your power damage is anywhere *close* to 40%. It should be somewhere around 10% or less. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish I was fighting more condi then I could just equip one of the many extremely strong counters and take vastly less dmg than I do now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You do realize that clears aren't supposed to make you immune right, just delay your death. So that you can kill them before they kill you. Of you frequently struggle it's either a player error or your build should run more clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thats the theory. In actuality, the way it works out is that you try to delay your death 4 or 5 times, and then die anyway because even with an abundance of condi clears, the enemy build is both much tankier and does a metric crapton more damage than you do. To put it bluntly, my build cannot run any more condi clears. Its literally maxed out on them. Including several that clear the entire condi bomb. And guess what? Its *still* nowhere close enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then you're not pressuring them back > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, I am. But even when pressuring them, they still kill you faster than you kill them. Any attempt to hit them makes them able to hit you. Its not a trade you win. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then kite them, they're slow, you're core engi iirc, you're not exactly made to be able to beat them at facetanking and bashing each in melee but you have plenty of other advantages. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Depending of course on your build, I also don't know how strong your build is overall obviously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, theyre not slow at all. Their build can access perma swiftness, has a number of dashes, and applies chill from afar with ease. They will catch up to you. Kiting is a nice idea, but a complete non-starter. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No. They're very slow compared to most builds that would need to kite them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Theyre faster than my engineer. Perma-swiftness, boon removal to stop mine, chill, and even a couple dashes. There isnt any way for me to "kite" them. In fact, Im pretty sure the *only* build that can kite them is Longbow Ranger. *If* the Revenant doesnt dodge knockback shot. If he does then eve nthey cant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ranger can very easily kite Rev of they run Longbow.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anyway, you seem very uninterested in how things are and more interested in some crusade > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *If* they hit Knockback shot. Or Point Blank Shot. Whatever. If they dont, then they will be moving so much slower than the Rev while trying to kite that the rev will catch up in just a short frame of time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, Im quite interested in how things are. Im also annoyed that you seem not to be interested in how things are, but how you want them to be. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then don't try to say things like condi rev is faster than ranger, it's a lie and very far from the truth, ranger is so much faster its not even comparable > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *While kiting*. If the Ranger just wants to run, he will run. But he can only do that while in melee, and he cant do it while kiting. Thats the keyword. > > > > > > > > > > So what you do is, you run a bit, pew pew a little, run a bit, pew pew a little, kiting doesn't mean continuously attacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesnt work. Youre not moving faster than a perma-swiftness Rev. Rangers mobility is great when it does things like Swoop, or activating lesser lightning Zephyr. You cant constantly swap between longbow and GS in-combat though. You gotta stick to one. And then it doesnt really work. > > > > > > Why would you "stick to one" weapon? That's just poor playing. That's like camping one element on elementalist. Ranger's weapon swap a lot in combat. > > > > > > > Sure. Good luck kiting with a bleeding Greatsword. > > You swap to greatsword, use mobility skill away from enemy > Ok, so far this works. > Swap to bow pewpew til you feel threatened > Yeah because the opponent is gonna bother chasing you after you swapped to greatsword, with the knowledge that youre not a threat for the next 10 seconds. > Swap back to greatsword, use mobility skill away from enemy > Ok, even if the opponent was stupid enough to run at you for the first time, why would they do this again? For that matter, they have 10 seconds to catch up to you and start putting the hurt on you. 10 seconds is more than enough if youre trying to attack via longbow. This doesnt work. > > > Rangers can get perma swiftness in a lot of different ways most of the time by picking up already strong pets/traits/skills. Rev actually has to make sacrifices to get it. > > > > > > > They cant. There isnt anything to add here, they just cant get perma swiftness. Hell, they struggle to have any kind of significant swiftness uptime. To the point that some people unironically run Rune of the Speed. On the other hand, Rev just has to play Herald (which is the best version) and press a single button that they always have on their bar. Thats not at a sacrifice at all. > > Resounding timbre is pretty good for core ranger soulbeast has it even easier > Thats still nowhere close to perma-swiftness, and requires you to pre-emptively use a command. Most likely the heal one. Not a good option. > > > Ranger is a faster class, by a lot. Even before taking into consideration that they have stealth, a knockback, cripple and possibly soulbeast merge skills available to help them get away. > > > > > > > When using Swoop and other dashes to move, yes. If theyre on Longbow? No. Theyre significantly slower, they dont even have perma-swiftness, let alone Revenants perma-swiftness + Rising Momentum. And thats not even involving Chill. And yes, they have a knockback. If that lands, they can kite. If it does not, they cannot. Im pretty sure I said that. > > Rising momentum doesn't stack. > If it doesnt, thats a bug. > Also rev can't do swiftness while on Demon without picking some up bad traits. > You can swap legends to chase. > Your chill is 900 range and on Demon, hard to use at the same time as facet of elements, no? > Frigid Blitz, Chilled Isolation? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >and ccing them, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope. I am CC-ing them. Sadly, thats not a magical fix-all method. There is this concept called "stunbreak". It allows for the Revenant to break out of stuns, or other CC. They further have another tool called "stability", it prevents the next CC. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well I guess you never actually played condi rev, the stunbreaks and stab sources are awful. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > CC is highly effective against condi rev. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Clearly you havent. They have 2 stunbreaks and up to 2 sources of stability. Thats actually not that little. I dont know about your build, but mine doesnt have 4 sources of hard CC back to back to back. Ive got 2 and thats already on the higher end. I could get 3, but even that isnt enough. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let's assume herald dragon+Demon > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Their source of stab is only on stunbreak (if they even run it) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Demon stunbreak is atrociously bad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dragon has one on a long cd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course they run it. But 5 seconds of stability is a long time, and I have no way to survive that long against them. Demon Stunbreak is still a stunbreak. Great or not, it does the job. Long CD doesnt matter, Ill not get to survive until my stuns are back up (theyre also long cd btw). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The trait is 2 sec > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glaring_Resolve > > > > > > > > Nope, its 5. Unless you meant another one that also gives stability? Im not aware of another one though, and this is the one Condi Revs use. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 sec in WvW and PvP > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 sec is PvE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's a button at the top of the wiki page to change between gamemodes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You might notice that button is absent on that skillpage. You also might note that the official patchnotes do not note a split between WvW and PvP. If its split ,its a bug or an undocumented change. > > > > > > > > > > Fair enough it's missing on the wiki, but there is a split ingame. It even says so on the skill and was there since it's introduction. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fair enough. I hadnt paid attention to it because it wasnt in the patch notes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me put it this way: no improvement you could make could make the fight winnable. Not unless that improvement includes "partnering up with a Firebrand". And eh, my build isnt top tier meta, but the others dont perform much better either. Remember, Condi Rev was hilariously dominant in sPvPs 2v2 mode despite Firebrand being in nearly every match. Condi builds in sPvP dont have good stat sets to work with in WvW while power ones do. They also have worse runes and sigils. And it *still* dominated through dozens of cleanses. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe your build is countered by condi rev, I haven't seen your build or seen you play so hard to say really. I know I don't struggle more with condi than against anything else (less even) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If my build is countered by condi rev, than anything that isnt firebrand or prot holo is. My build is as close to maximum condi cleanses as you can get. And yes, you keep saying that, but you also keep saying that you can only cleanse 4 condis and somehow thats enough against a build that can apply up to 9 condis including cover condis, can condi bomb several times in quick succession every single one of which is lethal and has 4 different damaging condis ticking at you. Somehow it seems you just dont face any condi revs that even know the basics of playing their class. Because they should shred through you as you woefully lack condi clears. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There's more to beating condi builds than how many clears you have, I am sure there's power builds that counters your build too. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > None, actually. There are some that are more challenging, but none that are outright unwinnable. And there is more to it, yes, but there is a certain baseline of how many clears you need to have a potential chance of winning. You were below it, until I realised that of course youre *also* playing condi rev. You dont have the massive damage gap because you also have their level of damage, and you have resistance to shore up. Its a mirror. > > > > > > > > > > Actually condi rev/ren (which is not herald) is heavily disfavored against condi herald, much more than any power build is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You cant claim both this and say "Oh Im totally fine with just 4 clears". Thats just contradicting yoruself. Anyway, no, its not, because at least it has comparable damage, rather than a fraction of the damage. > > > > > > It is. I can just accept having bad matchups and in fights that arent just 1v1 it's really not a massive problem. (though condi herald has some extremely bs things, such as true nature - demon being unavoidable and massive). > > > > > > > But if its a bad matchup, and its a common matchup (as it should be, its the best class), then you should be taking almost entirely condi damage. Yet you claimed you take far more power damage. > > Except it's not more common than power builds, there's still way more power thieves/power warriors /power rangers etc than there's condi Heralds. > > > > > > > > The resistance uptime is fairly insignificant. > > > > > > > > > > > > > At least 40%. More if you have any concentration, which I believe that build would have. > > > > > > "At least 40%" > > > > > > The trait has 5 sec cd and 2 sec duration, that means in theory it can give 40%. In practice you'd struggle to break 35% even camping demon. > > > > > > > Concentration, it increases boon duration, and you get it for free. > > Condi herald gains a whole 4% boon duration (60 concentration) > > > > GIven that you spend about 50% of the time on another legend, breaking 20% would be pretty hard. Condi rev most assuredly does not run any concentration (well it runs 3% boon duration from 45 to all stats food, but that's it). > > > > > > > You spend much less than 50% on the other legend. You start on it for boons, then swap to Demon, and stay in demon until the enemy dies (which is usually before the cooldown is even up). Also, Reinforced Potency. > > So they recover no energy and don't use invoke torment. Demon is energy hungry. > They start on the other legend, then swap and activate invoke torment. And again, they die before the legend swap cooldown is even up most of the time. > > > The sPvP build however runs Fiendish Tenacity, Spirit Boon and rune of resistance and actually has very high resistance uptime. But condi herald in WvW runs rune of tormenting and Permeating Pestilence (and quite often also Incensed Response) and has much lower resistance uptime. > > > > > > > The sPvP version does also run a lot of resistance, yeah. > > It runs much much more. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because they could oneshot condi necro. But power damage is a lot lower, and condi damage is not. Survivability on condi builds is arguably even higher now. Both dont really counter condi necro anymore. > > > > > > > > > > They still counter necro (thought full bunker necro can probably survive them now, but never kill them either so), by design, they never 1 shot condi necro, they would burst then reset. Repeating the process until the necro died. doing at most about 1/3rd of the necro's hp in each burst, the necro having no options for healing up as quickly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Uh, no, they did oneshot. Burst and reset doesnt work for thief, because then the Scourge turns around and either blasts the thief for a bunch of condis (which the thief struggles to get rid of and most likely dies to), or if its a power build does Ghastly Claws or Reaper Shroud stuff. For Mesmer, resetting wasnt really much of an option. Too long of a cooldown on any way to reset. > > > > > > No, the thief does CC+Burst then uses a mobility skill to get away before the necro can fight back. Then repeats the proccess until the necro dies. > > > > > > > Ah yes, the thief uses CC and then bursts. Now, uh, just remind me. What CC is the thief using exactly? I checked, and the only one it has is Daze, on a 20 second cooldown (Swipe). Its also just Daze. As for mobility, thats also pretty limited. In fact, given that this means that the thief has 20 seconds between burst attempts (10 seconds to swap back to D/P, another 10 seconds to be able to swap back to Shortbow. Also, the Daze cooldown). The Necro can legit just walk away in 20 seconds. That process simply put doesnt work. It also doesnt work because the Necro can fight back faster, especially if throwing CC himself, but I digress. > > Usually it was stealth up, steal +backstab, some AAs with headshots mixed until low on initiative, teleport away, repeat > Uh, yeah that would not work. At all. If they stealth up while the necro sees them, the thief is not getting a back backstab. A frontstab at best. If he tries to stay in the fight to auto, he gets his ass feared and killed. And if he teleports away with low initiative, that means shadowstep, removing both his only stunbreak, and one of his only 2 condi clears. That would be a terrible idea. He also could only do it *once*. > Necro can't just "walk away" because thief is much faster > Thief is much faster when they can shortbow 5 everywhere. But when disengaging, they deplete their initiative pool. At that point the Necro very much so can just walk away and mount up. > > > > > > > > > sPvP has 0 bearing on WvW > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not entirely. Its a good mirror, as small scale WvW and sPvP are extremely similar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope they're really not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They are, down to the builds and their usage. Its rare for WvW roaming to have a build that is entirely different from sPvP. Right now there are ... none. I guess SA rifle, but I wouldnt even say its a real thing in WvW. > > > > > > > > > > No, thats just wrong, sPvP and WvW are extremely different. > > > > > > > > > > > > > And yet the builds and their usage are nearly identical. As I said, the only difference I could see was SA rifle, and SA rifle isnt really a thing either. > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > Go ahead then, find a major difference in the builds and their usage. > > In what builds. > Any? > > > > > > > > > The most powerful counters don't even exist there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Firebrand does exist in sPvP. As do things like Elixir C. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ugh, cut off. > > Marauders is also the best power stat in WvW. See, pretty comparable. > > sPvP is such a different ecosystem that it is not comparable. > And yet the metas refuse. > > I already explained the burn guard combo. Hell, the ones you mention are too slow for burst. > > That one wouldn't kill a fly tbh. I hate burnguard as much as anyone, but complaints should be about the correct parts. > > Either way we seem to have vastly different views on this. I don't think that this will really lead anywhere, we can probably both just leave it at this tbh. > > I know I am most likely going to leave this unless something interesting or drastically different is said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nthmetal.9652 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > > Necro can't just "walk away" because thief is much faster > Thief is much faster when they can shortbow 5 everywhere. But when disengaging, they deplete their initiative pool. At that point the Necro very much so can just walk away and mount up. That is strange. I'm on a warrior and I swear, I have been chased by thieves across the whole map - or at least all the way from home garrison to hills or bay, or all through the ruins to hills without them running out of options to keep up AND keep me in combat. Mind you, if I pay enough attention, I can mitigate what they dish out all the way, but trying to catch them is pretty much pointless for my character. And I do have some movement enhancement on this character - probably more than necro. So "just walking away and mounting up" is in most situations, if the thief knows what he's doing, definitely no option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nthmetal.9652 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > There's no situation where you would need to clear 4 condis, 3 times in rapid succession that aren't situations where you're so outnumbered your gonna die anyway. I disagree. Why? Because of the CC bombs, that are currently very strong even in non-outnumbered situations. I know, it was Anet's intention to make the game feel more skillful. The result I see now is something I personally disagree with: Even in fights with even numbers, you can easily end up dead, taking just one false step. What happens is that you get locked down instantly. You need two or three stunbreaks and dodges to get out of that hell again. Very few characters actually have that option. If you do not have those stunbreaks, you will need those condi clears in big amount in short successions so you have even a chance of getting out of that bomb. Now why do I disagree with that approach? Because taking one false step should not have such massive repercussions. It should be costly, but at the moment it's typically instadeath. The length of fights I typically see also points to that: Many fights are very short, usually over in one or two pushes. Now if this would be high risk-high reward, I might kind of agree with that, but often it doesn't feel like that. Especially the high reward part - I mean we're talking about WvW here. There is nothing "high reward" anywhere in WvW .... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramjam.4507 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"Stajan.4581" said: > > Now it is found that in WvW that condi has gone crazy and is almost unstoppable. > Yes, it has become balanced against power now, hasnt it? In what world has it been balanced now? hahahaha good one :D it could be balanced as of now if Condi builds also had to chose between damage and damage mitigation / healing. they could tbh have conditions beeing able to crit and it'd been fixed, lower their damage a bit from now but each tick beeing able to crit would introduce 2 more viable stats they would have to chose to take if they wanted high burst, compared to condi bunker meta currently, bunker metas are always boring, very little happens and everything gets stale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > Problem is more the gear than the conditions themselves (except burning and torment are straight OP right now on a few builds). > > Get rid of Dire/TB and it's largely fixed. > > > > There's an unspoken advantage to condi vs power builds which is largely that control conditions are way more damning than they are when sourced from power builds. > > Against condi you're forced to spend cleanses on the DoT's while you can manage the cleanses as you need to against power builds for essential control conditions like weakness, immob, and even blind when casting larger, high-impact channeled skills. > > > > Killing S/T a power mesmer, for example, I can cleanse its blind and go for the kill when it enters stealth out of desperation because I know it's still in melee and my hit will track. Against a condi mesmer, I'm constantly trying to cleanse to not die, and don't have the resources to line up the killing blow so it can stealth safely. If given weakness by a condi build, I only get half the dodges, despite still needing to dodge the same skills to avoid the tick applications and CC. > > > > Which of course, aside from blind, these effects are also extended by Expertise/condi duration effects, making it all the more problematic from a balance perspective. > > > > Condi right now is mostly just a total PITA to deal with because of its pure defensive resources available in WvW (Dire/TB) and how the nature of condition builds is to gain power by extending a fight, which is now easier to do than at any other point in the history of the game. When they can't be killed quickly thanks to a myriad of issues, the strength is over-leveraged. > > > > Sure we can all stack up on cleanses, but then as soon as we encounter a rounded-out power build we get slapped because their utilities, sigils, and traits just dominate Power vs Power. It's the same argument in reverse. > > Here is the thing. Armor and toughness as those Bunker stats do less to protect a person against a power build then does all of those cleanses sigils and gear does to protect against a Condition build. It does not take away a whole lot of your power to take cleanses enough to shut down Condi builds especially in wvw. Cleansing sigl on swap as example. Where is that killing your damage out? On one thief power build I use trickster and the on evade cleanse food. It makes no significant dent to damage out and coupled with dodging condi bursts you can do fine. > > Yes it harder to kill a person bunkered and I suggested that would be the case before the changes implemented. That is why you see more people in the CS tree and it those traits taken that will boost your damage more then a food that adds 70 power or gives a lightning strike on crit. > > Now prior to these changes you were making the same argument against that same gear even when Power damage was so much greater. People in dire were getting one shot so i really can not reconcile the logic there. I have one thief that uses TB in a Condi build and he is still taken out by power attacks. One shots are not so common now but power builds can take him out. The fights take longer to be sure but a longer fight allows you to use more of your skills rather then who presses a button first . > > The gear is not a problem. "Thief is okay so it's fine" and "I still die to power with condi gear" are not really addressing any of what I said lol. I should hope people are killing you, because if you're never dying solely because of gear, something is wrong lol. I've been making the same statements about condi/TB gear for years because it's a design failure as listed above. Condition builds by design almost always are structured by having traits and stats to reduce incoming damage. It's also ignoring the equation of Soldier's gear being worse at every single benchmark in comparison. You're comparing a build path playing around DoT to a glass cannon burst build path. The glass cannon should burst more. There's nothing to say otherwise and it defies logic suggesting it shouldn't. Dire and TB cause condition builds to over-perform, and make for a game-state that can't be balanced around. Period. Condition builds having priority with disabling conditions and covers is how they win a fight via skill, and should face challenges in kill pressure on the level of a similarly-statted power build. Offtank power builds win through a slow grind and might even cause endless fights depending on the class. Dire/TB brings a lot more kill pressure and a lot more disabling than its similarly-statted power alternatives and has little incentive to deviate into squishier builds outside of PvE. The notion of losing a fight based on who presses a button first is contrived. The powercreep introduced in the post-expansion content (stats, food, elite specs, tweaks etc.) causing combat pace to quicken to an undesirable degree based on risk/reward is irrelevant in respects to relative balance of sets of gear that have been mathematically deemed overpowered for competitive play by its very own creators. The tekk Dire/TB makes condition builds as a whole hard to balance. It's the same reasoning I've been advocating more for changes in thief gameplay for years, and in the same vein have been proven correct time and time again. If you really want to get on with the personal anecdotes, here's mine for you. It proves nothing, but being personal, maybe lends the notion that I actually play these things too. I also have two (really three) thieves, one(two) power, one condi. I have two soulbeasts- one power, one condi. I have two reapers - one power, one condi. Two warriors - one power, one condi. Even two eles, a class I absolutely suck at and can/could never figure out how to play correctly because the fingers just don't want to work - one power, one condi (I'm actually significantly better at the condi build because Dire/TB lets me get away with sucking more, but am willing to discount the huge difference in effectiveness it provides because of the fact it's significantly easier to play which is important at my skill level on ele, and because condi burn ele is currently one of the stronger builds in the game in general allowing me to get way more kill pressure than I rightfully should). Every single condi build has less hours played by nearly a factor of 80%, and my performance on all of them is no lower than the others by noticeable margins except for one, which should be and is the reaper, being that my skills on power reaper transcend those of mine even on thief, and that condi reaper is clearly not as strong as power by the traits and design. All of the condi builds are using exotic gear. All of the power builds except the eles have ascended. I'm playing condi as my get-wins mechanism now. The difference in potency is pretty glaring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"nthmetal.9652" said: > > > Necro can't just "walk away" because thief is much faster > > Thief is much faster when they can shortbow 5 everywhere. But when disengaging, they deplete their initiative pool. At that point the Necro very much so can just walk away and mount up. > > That is strange. I'm on a warrior and I swear, I have been chased by thieves across the whole map - or at least all the way from home garrison to hills or bay, or all through the ruins to hills without them running out of options to keep up AND keep me in combat. Mind you, if I pay enough attention, I can mitigate what they dish out all the way, but trying to catch them is pretty much pointless for my character. And I do have some movement enhancement on this character - probably more than necro. So "just walking away and mounting up" is in most situations, if the thief knows what he's doing, definitely no option. > If they dont disengage but chase you, thats a different story. Though, Warrior is actually the one class that, on flat ground, outruns a thief. If its inclines thief wins, but on flat ground, you should leave any thief in the dust. It is an option if the thief tries to disengage and get out of the Necros range after doing damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > Of course there is an 11k burning tick. Oh right that reminds me haha.  That happened in an instant and came from... an ele. No seriously, it was an ele. He instakilled people. The raid thought it was suspect and some kind of exploit, because none of it make sense - an ele doesnt have that kind of torment or poison afaik and 10k bleeding is like 50 stacks. Havent seen it since or ever before. I'm sure people will take this as "condi OP!" when I was running in a 50 man zerg consisting of 100% power meta builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shroud.2307 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 For the sake of entertainment, here are a few recent screen caps. Two were taken last night, the third 2 weeks ago. I was playing a full Berserker + Strength rune Herald when I landed this in a small scale fight on Reaper who had just left Shroud.  I received this hit when I was on the same Herald build in a 1 v 2. I don't recall having any Conditions on me.  I landed this hit while in a full Cavalier/Valkyrie + Scholar Thief build using Hidden Killer ( 100% Critical Chance from Stealth ). I had 3.1k armor.  0 interest in defense relating to "BUT CAST TIME" or "BUT ARMOR." I can produce plenty more like this, it's not hard even after the February patch. Here's another where I got hit for two 4k Mind Wracks while I was on a 2.8k armored Engineer.  I'm not asking for any of these things to be nerfed. I'm not ruling out situational conditions, etc. I'm saying that Power builds are _still_ capable of producing completely idiotic levels of damage and anyone saying Conditions are heavily out performing Power are out of their minds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > Of course there is an 11k burning tick. > Oh right that reminds me haha. > >  > > That happened in an instant and came from... an ele. No seriously, it was an ele. He instakilled people. The raid thought it was suspect and some kind of exploit, because none of it make sense - an ele doesnt have that kind of torment or poison afaik and 10k bleeding is like 50 stacks. Havent seen it since or ever before. > > I'm sure people will take this as "condi OP!" when I was running in a 50 man zerg consisting of 100% power meta builds. Isnt there like a condi banner? Mightve been that, if Im not misremembering here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said: > For the sake of entertainment, here are a few recent screen caps. Two were taken last night, the third 2 weeks ago. > > I was playing a full Berserker + Strength rune Herald when I landed this in a small scale fight on Reaper who had just left Shroud. >  > > I received this hit when I was on the same Herald build in a 1 v 2. I don't recall having any Conditions on me. >  > > I landed this hit while in a full Cavalier/Valkyrie + Scholar Thief build using Hidden Killer ( 100% Critical Chance from Stealth ). I had 3.1k armor. >  > > 0 interest in defense relating to "BUT CAST TIME" or "BUT ARMOR." I can produce plenty more like this, it's not hard even after the February patch. Here's another where I got hit for two 4k Mind Wracks while I was on a 2.8k armored Engineer. > >  > > I'm not asking for any of these things to be nerfed. I'm not ruling out situational conditions, etc. I'm saying that Power builds are _still_ capable of producing completely idiotic levels of damage and anyone saying Conditions are heavily out performing Power are out of their minds. Some of these look like undergeared folks to me. Thats part of the problem, power can get higher numbers because its balanced around fully geared folks. Condi ignores armour, so their damage is always the same. But yes, power builds can still do good damage, but its far more situational, far more avoidable, and requires them to go full glass, or use a gimmick like Valkyrie + some trait that never ends up working out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"babazhook.6805" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > Problem is more the gear than the conditions themselves (except burning and torment are straight OP right now on a few builds). > > > Get rid of Dire/TB and it's largely fixed. > > > > > > There's an unspoken advantage to condi vs power builds which is largely that control conditions are way more damning than they are when sourced from power builds. > > > Against condi you're forced to spend cleanses on the DoT's while you can manage the cleanses as you need to against power builds for essential control conditions like weakness, immob, and even blind when casting larger, high-impact channeled skills. > > > > > > Killing S/T a power mesmer, for example, I can cleanse its blind and go for the kill when it enters stealth out of desperation because I know it's still in melee and my hit will track. Against a condi mesmer, I'm constantly trying to cleanse to not die, and don't have the resources to line up the killing blow so it can stealth safely. If given weakness by a condi build, I only get half the dodges, despite still needing to dodge the same skills to avoid the tick applications and CC. > > > > > > Which of course, aside from blind, these effects are also extended by Expertise/condi duration effects, making it all the more problematic from a balance perspective. > > > > > > Condi right now is mostly just a total PITA to deal with because of its pure defensive resources available in WvW (Dire/TB) and how the nature of condition builds is to gain power by extending a fight, which is now easier to do than at any other point in the history of the game. When they can't be killed quickly thanks to a myriad of issues, the strength is over-leveraged. > > > > > > Sure we can all stack up on cleanses, but then as soon as we encounter a rounded-out power build we get slapped because their utilities, sigils, and traits just dominate Power vs Power. It's the same argument in reverse. > > > > Here is the thing. Armor and toughness as those Bunker stats do less to protect a person against a power build then does all of those cleanses sigils and gear does to protect against a Condition build. It does not take away a whole lot of your power to take cleanses enough to shut down Condi builds especially in wvw. Cleansing sigl on swap as example. Where is that killing your damage out? On one thief power build I use trickster and the on evade cleanse food. It makes no significant dent to damage out and coupled with dodging condi bursts you can do fine. > > > > Yes it harder to kill a person bunkered and I suggested that would be the case before the changes implemented. That is why you see more people in the CS tree and it those traits taken that will boost your damage more then a food that adds 70 power or gives a lightning strike on crit. > > > > Now prior to these changes you were making the same argument against that same gear even when Power damage was so much greater. People in dire were getting one shot so i really can not reconcile the logic there. I have one thief that uses TB in a Condi build and he is still taken out by power attacks. One shots are not so common now but power builds can take him out. The fights take longer to be sure but a longer fight allows you to use more of your skills rather then who presses a button first . > > > > The gear is not a problem. > > "Thief is okay so it's fine" and "I still die to power with condi gear" are not really addressing any of what I said lol. I should hope people are killing you, because if you're never dying solely because of gear, something is wrong lol. > > I've been making the same statements about condi/TB gear for years because it's a design failure as listed above. Condition builds by design almost always are structured by having traits and stats to reduce incoming damage. It's also ignoring the equation of Soldier's gear being worse at every single benchmark in comparison. You're comparing a build path playing around DoT to a glass cannon burst build path. The glass cannon should burst more. There's nothing to say otherwise and it defies logic suggesting it shouldn't. > > Dire and TB cause condition builds to over-perform, and make for a game-state that can't be balanced around. Period. Condition builds having priority with disabling conditions and covers is how they win a fight via skill, and should face challenges in kill pressure on the level of a similarly-statted power build. Offtank power builds win through a slow grind and might even cause endless fights depending on the class. Dire/TB brings a lot more kill pressure and a lot more disabling than its similarly-statted power alternatives and has little incentive to deviate into squishier builds outside of PvE. > > The notion of losing a fight based on who presses a button first is contrived. The powercreep introduced in the post-expansion content (stats, food, elite specs, tweaks etc.) causing combat pace to quicken to an undesirable degree based on risk/reward is irrelevant in respects to relative balance of sets of gear that have been mathematically deemed overpowered for competitive play by its very own creators. The tekk > > Dire/TB makes condition builds as a whole hard to balance. It's the same reasoning I've been advocating more for changes in thief gameplay for years, and in the same vein have been proven correct time and time again. > > If you really want to get on with the personal anecdotes, here's mine for you. It proves nothing, but being personal, maybe lends the notion that I actually play these things too. > I also have two (really three) thieves, one(two) power, one condi. I have two soulbeasts- one power, one condi. I have two reapers - one power, one condi. Two warriors - one power, one condi. Even two eles, a class I absolutely suck at and can/could never figure out how to play correctly because the fingers just don't want to work - one power, one condi (I'm actually significantly better at the condi build because Dire/TB lets me get away with sucking more, but am willing to discount the huge difference in effectiveness it provides because of the fact it's significantly easier to play which is important at my skill level on ele, and because condi burn ele is currently one of the stronger builds in the game in general allowing me to get way more kill pressure than I rightfully should). > > Every single condi build has less hours played by nearly a factor of 80%, and my performance on all of them is no lower than the others by noticeable margins except for one, which should be and is the reaper, being that my skills on power reaper transcend those of mine even on thief, and that condi reaper is clearly not as strong as power by the traits and design. All of the condi builds are using exotic gear. All of the power builds except the eles have ascended. > I'm playing condi as my get-wins mechanism now. The difference in potency is pretty glaring. Your comparison as to what you can do in Dire with mistakes made as compared to other types with classes you not familiar has no bearing on the matter. When power was MUCH higher you made the same observations claiming it an OP spec. That a person can get away with more in Dire is the same that is true when playing a warrior. I can get away with a lot more mistakes on a warrior even if I not familiar with it as compared to thief. That does not translate to warrior should be removed. There was always enough damage before this patch to take out Dire builds. I was in dire and got taken out and I was in power a LOT more and took people out. The vast majority of builds have always been power and not someone in Dire. It not because there all these players that never make mistakes so do not need dire. It because power specs always pumped out plenty enough damage to take down dire builds and they did it quickly. Dire did not change pre patch to now. If you are getting more wins now in a Condi build it means you now live long enough to get this wins. This is not because of dire. It because damage output of power builds was lowered and now they have to be longer in the fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avion Blade.4869 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 Each class is different in defense against getting conditions landing on them. The trick is to not get hit by a condition bomb via a circle or insta cast. Some classes cleanse conditions built into heals, or evades, or in the use of skills/utilities; others cleanse through swapping with their target's boons with conditions. Again, some classes also have traits to tweak condition duration; and then there are sigil bonuses or reductions and food for anti-condi. Conditions bypass armor to counter toughness and armor defence stats; and conditions are useful in WvW for multi fights. Power builds at the moment are very good at sniping or single targeting an opponent who is weakening over a battle of attrition. The balance between power and condition is best used with a lean on power, and less on condi. The reason is so if you get boon or condition flipped the counter against you doesn't do much, and your power damage is still high enough to spike up with precision or ferocity boons or class-trait bonuses whenever you want to surge or burst play. Toughness depends on your class again, if its jumpy you can lessen the toughness, if its slow, you can increase the toughness. Concerning trait tweaks for classes; some specializations have combination uses: Healing Power and Power work together Toughness and Condition Work together Precision Power and Ferocity Work Together Condition and Concentration work together Expertise and Boons work together. I highly recommend having at least three of your equipment be used with all celestial; for example, my accessory and rings are all celestial stats ascended, and the armor can be some full gear, and my weapons either celestial or matching the armor set. To explain this; the current meta shifted towards condition emphasis; which means condition cleanses are in massive use. More cleansing use means less DPS overall and less mobility overall for almost all players; if they want to sustain in a fight. By going a few on celestial, and specialized on whatever 3 or 4 set armor/weapon stats, or celestial weaps and specialized armor for your build, will help determine where you can peak in a fight (burst/land a bomb, etc). As of now, if you can get maybe 800 Condition damage stat, and perhaps 1800+ power, and some 2300+ toughness, you are balanced and can handle most fights up to a 1v3 with the best use of the environment for your class. If you go 2000+ power, you can be great in 1v1, but are most likely vulnerable in a multi fight. If your condition damage is less than 700, you are missing out on some important dps. So, the current meta option is to go full Power with healing power, toughness an some condi cleanse; or to go hybrid with emphasis on power, and secondary condi, or go full condition damage, condi cleanse, and healing power, since toughness is countered by condi. [This is if you want to be a pure DPS build] If you want sustainability, i recommend the core celestial, and sub-specialized examples I mentioned above. ----- I won't reveal much, but I have been experimenting on a non-cloak mirage jumper build and I have been handling fights really well!, so I'm passing on these stat balance philosophies to see if people are familiar with it, or have noticed its effectiveness. Ever wondered why you lost a fight when your opponent was down to 15 percent health? perhaps you emphasized too much on toughness and not enough on power, or condition damage, so that is where you can make the adjustment tweak in your build so you can make it you are down to 40 percent and they are downed and you win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammuz.7361 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 The correct answer to the condi meta is to buff power part way back where it was before the Feb patch. If you streight nerf condi damage, we will wind up in even worse shape with an ESO like Tank meta. That would be very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 I think a lot of the problem with condi is unlike corruption there are no priority condis clears. There no real order of clearing the soft cc vs condi dmg that is killing you all over the 1 stack of bleeding or 1 stack of vulnerability. It simply feels like condis over all where not though out that well to start with as a main scores of dmg in spvp and wvw. Its simply to easy to cover condis with more condis so skills and builds that put out 2-4 condi types in one skill are much stronger then a power conter part that just dose power dmg (all got nerfed hard even though anet said if it just did dmg it was not going to get hit hard.) That the real problem here power got nerfed hard and condi dmg did not so every one went to a condi base meta or an counter condi base meta. Condi is a pve effect and was updated as such. It simply dose not fit in a player vs player base combat as a main dmg type and it should be fixed to fill a more suppression roll or a supplemental roll NOT a bunker all in build that is condi dmg base only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cecilia.5179 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 I said this several years ago, but it's still relevant: If they want to nerf condition damage, they need to go back to the framework of pre-HoT GW2 where the strongest conditions often required critical hits to apply. Forcing high-damage condition builds to spec into Precision limits them to a handful of auxillary stats. I think we don't see this kind of shift because the balance team addresses sPvP balance by removing stat combinations instead of tuning conditions to not be busted under any stat combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 > @"Cecilia.5179" said: > I said this several years ago, but it's still relevant: > If they want to nerf condition damage, they need to go back to the framework of pre-HoT GW2 where the strongest conditions often required critical hits to apply. Forcing high-damage condition builds to spec into Precision limits them to a handful of auxillary stats. > I think we don't see this kind of shift because the balance team addresses sPvP balance by removing stat combinations instead of tuning conditions to not be busted under any stat combination. I hope they go back too, then my condi engineer would literally have twice the condi dps compared to the gimping it recieved in the last patch, not to mention running rabid was viable back then with less cooldowns on internal skills (such as crit burns) so that would also give me much more condi damage. I like the way you think mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 They need to make Condi bursts cooldown gated in some way. The main balance between Power vs Condi right now is that Power builds can be easily shrugged off and they are vulnerable during their cooldown period, while Condi builds can continue pressing stacks indefinitely and kill the Power build which failed to pull off their burst correctly. This either leads to alot of resets and circling until someone finally messes up their skill rotation and dies, or it goes on until a third party interferes and results in one side's death due to overwhelming odds. Condi weapons should retain their ability to stack condi with their auto attacks, but any of their "condi burst" skills need increased cooldowns to make it less oppressive. Stuff like Utilities, Pet skills, Profession Mechanics and Traits need to be seriously looked at to prevent easy cheesy Condi oppression. If yu don't know what I'm talking about by Condi oppression, just roam solo or smallscale for abit : if yu ever meet a multiple Condi builds in a group(like Druid, Guardian or Rev) , high chance yur gonna get perma immob or CC'd and have 4 Spirit Swords dropped on yu inflicting the notorious 11k burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > They need to make Condi bursts cooldown gated in some way. Yeah power is totally cooldown gated. Thats how they achieve 40k dps in PvE. Because power damage is cooldown gated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yasai.3549 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > Thats how they achieve 40k dps in PvE. > > Because power damage is cooldown gated. It's obvious if yu read my entire post, it's not DPS I'm talking about, but Burst damage. Firstly, let's ignore Thief in this equation though, because that class is playing their own game outside conventional game balance. Power damage in player vs player combat is limited by the skill which deals the burst, and Condi also has similar skills which stack many Conditions at once. (example being skills like Signet of Fire or Spirit Blades or Mesmer Torch) Power builds always have to wait out their cooldowns after their power burst is spent, but Condition builds can continue pressure stacking Conditions even when their Condi burst is spent. (be it from their weapon autos or cover conditions from traits or profession mechanics) And more often than not, their Condi burst skills are numerous and on much lower cooldown than a Power build's arsenal. Condi burst skills like Mesmer Sceptre, Necro Sceptre 3, Guardian and Scourge Torches, Mesmer Pistol, have cooldowns which are at least 5 seconds lesser than the average Power burst skill (not multi hit mind yu, but skills that deal a huge chunk of damage in a single hit) Also Fanged Iboga pet AI has a spammable 5s Cooldown Crippling Anguish that inflicts 6 stacks of Confusion and 1 Torment in addition to Ranger's other utilities, Weaponskills, and skills of their other pet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > Thats how they achieve 40k dps in PvE. > > > > Because power damage is cooldown gated. > > It's obvious if yu read my entire post, it's not DPS I'm talking about, but Burst damage. > Define burst damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 > @"Yasai.3549" said: > And more often than not, their Condi burst skills are numerous and on much lower cooldown than a Power build's arsenal. > Condi burst skills like Mesmer Sceptre, Necro Sceptre 3, Guardian and Scourge Torches, Mesmer Pistol, have cooldowns which are at least 5 seconds lesser than the average Power burst skill (not multi hit mind yu, but skills that deal a huge chunk of damage in a single hit) Riiiiiiiiiight... because there are no power skills that exist at 5-10s cds. No one has ever been hit by skills such as maul over 500 damage I guess? > Power builds always have to wait out their cooldowns after their power burst is spent, but Condition builds can continue pressure stacking Conditions even when their Condi burst is spent. (be it from their weapon autos or cover conditions from traits or profession mechanics) And here the bias is so blatantly obvious. Are you implying power builds dont have autoattacks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kondor.2904 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 I genuinely fail to understand how anyone can have troubles with condition management in wvw when cleansing sigils and antitoxin runes exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 Condition requires only one stat and that is condition damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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