Psycoprophet.8107

I honestly think that the feb patch and a lot of players take on it was a good example of players thinking they know what they want or what's best but do not, the games never been in a worst place than post feb patch and the plummeting population is a testament to that. Condi and sustainability being to high and in some cases damage to low is killing this games pvp. Burst classes need to be actually bursty, mid line classes midline and sustain classes not bursting as they are, these devs royally messed this games pvp up, its a complete disaster balance wise.

The games in a seriously bad state, the other night had the same 2 players not duo q'rs in my team 3 matches in a row, that's a very sad sign of the state of the games population lol.

> @"ASP.8093" said:

> > @"kai.5149" said:

> > I just wish valve brings some balance to the wvw table if they have the opportunity.

>

> You do understand that Valve doesn't actually produce the games that are sold on Steam, right?

They better be to busy working on HL3 to be doing anything else lol.

U guys realize ur argueing who's better at gw2 right? I mean its gw2 lol.

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > @"Argonil.6970" said:

> > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > Well Mirage is borderline OP below Plat. So if you are having issues in PvP with Mirage below Plat, that means there are fundamentals you are missing about the class, your build, or pvp in general.

> >

> > Did you even read the post? No? Just a knee-jerk reaction to the tone and nothing else? Alright then, return to me when you've got any idea what's going on.

>

> I read the whole post and it seems you have an issue with PvP balance. If that isn't the point of the post than you have done a horrible job of getting your point across. The problem is this forum is filled with people who complain about balance without the slightest clue how to properly play their class. If your issue is you're straight up bad at playing Mirage, that can be helped. I am not one to argue that Mirage is in a great state, it is not. But it is more so that a few classes are a bit overtuned than Mirage being undertuned.

>

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > @"Argonil.6970" said:

> > > > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > > > OP, what rank are you?

> > > >

> > > > I don't buy that anything constructive is going to come from that question.

> > >

> > > Well Mirage is borderline OP below Plat. So if you are having issues in PvP with Mirage below Plat, that means there are fundamentals you are missing about the class, your build, or pvp in general.

> > >

> >

> > Mirage is no where near op below plat lol it has one burst than is a free bag.

>

> I played the game at release for a couple months and came back a few months ago with no clue how to play. I was sitting comfortably in Gold 2 my first month before I even knew how to shatter (an absurdly important mechanic for the class)! I had the displeasure of having awful placement matches this season and my first few placed matches that dropped me down to the lowest end of Silver 2 due to actual monkeys as teammates. I then won at least 90% of my matches to Gold 3. During my entire run through those ELOs I was a raid boss demolishing absolutely everything in my path. I was hitting at least 35% team damage and even hit 48% in one match and taking almost all the top stats every game. I am no god at this game, like I said I just came back a few months ago. In these ELOs people have no clue how to handle condi pressure. There is a reason many bots are Mirage in those ELOs. People are just straight up bad in these ELOs and the Mirage kit is more than enough to handle it. If you are a "free bag" after you blow your load as Mirage below plat you are bad. Plain and simple. I am sorry to tell you that.

>

> The problems with Mirage become more apparent the higher you climb. But below Plat they literally do not exist.

No u missunderstood lol I dont play much mirage, I'm saying their free bags for me after they blow their load, i have zero issues fighting mirage which is why i said their no OP, no matter the rank bracket really. U just fought some real bad players that made u feel godly, can happen on any class especially in this game as a lot of ur opponents are pve casuals farming pips

> @"Argonil.6970" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Mirage is no where near op below plat lol it has one burst than is a free bag.

>

> I'm in the middle of gold and I wasn't under that impression either. Also, the matchmaking system doesn't seem to be that great. I meet Gods Walking Amongst Mere Mortals and Gods of PvP and all sorts of deities which don't seem to have any business being in the same division as me. I suppose it's because there are so many veteran players that plat is 'basically' filled up, so the overflow is stuck fighting other players in the gold division who should be in plat. I hope that we get a lot of fresh blood into PvP once the game launches on Steam, it should allow those players to get into plat, I presume.

I'm mainly playing wow these days but would love it if steam brought a large portion of players, not only to help the game in many ways but to maybe wake the devs up as to the success the could have if they put more resources into the game and actually gave it the support it deserves. It could be thee mmo. One thing ull have to get ready for is when a large amount of new blood joins the game ull see a ton of nerf x threads due to lack of knoledge, I mean after playing the game for few yrs ull see these threads and be like what the f....? Lol

Also keep in mind that acro was replaced by DD in pvp die to the 2x traits getting hammered by the 300 cd idiocy but in wvw where ur roaming and can more often than not control when to engage with no time restrictions the 300cd is less hampering and are still useful, wasnt often ud be in the same fight long enough to proc them twice anyway.

> @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > @"Argonil.6970" said:

> > > @"Ronald McDonald.8165" said:

> > > OP, what rank are you?

> >

> > I don't buy that anything constructive is going to come from that question.

>

> Well Mirage is borderline OP below Plat. So if you are having issues in PvP with Mirage below Plat, that means there are fundamentals you are missing about the class, your build, or pvp in general.

>

Mirage is no where near op below plat lol it has one burst than is a free bag.

6 sec non stack able stealth but replenisheable would be reasonable since the thief can re apply but not stack. Be a nerf but still serviceable by the thieves. That said any major changes to stealth this many yrs into the game are very unlikely

U win u gain some, u lose u lose more, how it works lol

> @"c u again.3267" said:

> Bring back 2nd dodge and mirage is fine

I disagree. Mirage has a crazy amount of evade frames and damage avoidance even with the one dodge, due to its design I think one dodge is more balanced. Mirage would be in a better place if it's one shot meme build burst got lowered and it recieved proper buffs throughout its skill sets/weapon kitts and utilities to allow it be effective at providing damage without having to rely on one trick burst attempts. If u avoid that big burst mirage feels easy to fight in most cases and that's not fair to the players playing the class nor to players fighting it, neither side enjoys one trick meme builds, another example is gunflame zerk etc. Mirage needs buffs in area's its weak in not in the one area it's already strong in.

I would gladly swap invisibility and damage ratios with sin rogue in wow. Permanent invisibility when outa combat for traversing and getting into position without using all my global skill resources and utilities, great for setting up opening bursts. Then add 2 in combat stealth, one standard and the other when not moving in combination with a shroud that nullifys spells yum yum. Cherry on top would be the sweet sweet bursts rogues do that allow it to have a chance at severely chunking even the tankier of hp bars, and in wow their tanks dwarf gw2 tanks in comparison. U guys have it lucky with thief's design and damage in this game, then again gw2 draws a certain crowd which spills over to pvp.

U put all the better players in this game in multiple 1v1 competitions and guarantee thief will be near bottom and that's ok cuz that's not its strengths..... but it does get to have strengths right? And no just moving fast but being ineffective in all and any combat scenarios is not enough as that would be such a gbage design that zero players would invest in, so next best thing is having good quick burst to utilize the mobility in +1 scenarios as thief does, but players get salty when their fighting a 1v1 in a team pvp mode but get jumped into a 2v1, too bad. A bad thief is useless and a 2 is always useless. A good thief will slow down the other teams points by decapping IF thier teams doin their jobs and yes can kill if the thief knows who to plus, thatis not OP. last night had a warrior call smokescreen OP with no counter play among other salt when he was just bad,maybe new or somthing. I popped smokescreen and sat in it autoing him while he used all his hard cc's like bulls on me and when smokescreen was done he had zero cc's left and most skills on CD so I blinded and downed him, u think he'll learn to save his cc's till after smokescreen clears or any of the other smart counter plays he could have done? Nope he wont learn but just call it OP. U guys say thief cant be killed unless it wants to? Many times I've used my shadowstep(my one stunbreak on dp) and a warrior BC me, does half 100 blades and f1 with frenzy popped and 100-0 me, or a mirage which I counter catches me off guard and does its burst on me and 15k gone, are these classes op, no their 2 of the weakest classes in the game right now. Before someone says well u miss played in those scanarios well what if using me shadoestep was a great play at the time but soon after the warrior or any of the other hard cc monster classes catch me in their cc or I get pulled into the highly damaging dh traps with burning and the ward keeping u in the aoe? Thief can be killed and is killed many times every day in gw2 and no it surely didnt want to be.

> @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Jeydra.4386" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > > > > > And as usual, people complain about the wrong element of stealth and present the *worst* possible solutions. Yes, out of combat stealth, where you get hit by a burst from a player you didnt even know was there is an issue. Thats solved easily just by having a max duration of stealth that cant be exceeded. But in-combat stealth, aka stealthing in the middle of a fight, is *already weak*. And yet inexplicably the mechanic so underpowered good thieves dont use it is the one people want nerfed to ludicrous degrees.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What? I just got trolled by a Daredevil who spent roughly 50% of the time stealthed. He could aggro into me in the middle of NPCs in a camp and escape with no consequences, because during the time when he wasn't stealthed he always has dodges and ports. Meanwhile I can't leave the camp because he will flip it (+ it was a long way to run to the next objective during which he will probably kill me), and I can't even map out because I'm in combat.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > And I haven't even mentioned the ability to grief 8+ players hunting you in a Keep, on a class that has ports for teammates (i.e. cannot be left alone if you want to hold the objective).

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stealth is just so stupidly broken it needs to be nerfed into oblivion. "Overpowered" is the wrong word to describe it. It's the ability to grief other players that is the problem.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The biggest issue with stealth is in this post.

> > > > > > > What the poster I am quotting is saying is he can't even interact with the thief due to stealth and dodges. So he playing a video game against a class he essentially cannot interact with. That is boring and bad, and why stealth is so obscenely broken.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yeah except that says more about him than it says about thief. Because he very much so can interact with the thief. Easily even. Stealth in-combat is trivially easy to punish after all. If he failed to do so, he just misplayed. As for "dodges", D/P thief does not have an above average amount of dodges, and when you consider the lack of invuln or block, theyre even below average. Stealth is not "obscenely broken", in the situations people complain about its horribly *underpowered*. It is stupid for out of combat scenarios, but people rarely talk about those.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Fighting against classes you can't even interact with is horrible game design and has been an issue plaguing this game for years, especially in WvW.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No such class ever existed. The closest were probably release Mirage and some version of sword weaver. And even with those you could interact with them.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > Take care of your game, look at abusive combinations people are using to make their characters instantly kill someone, or be non-interactable by other players, and actually FIX THEM.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thats ... what theyve been doing? I cant think of any class that can even oneshot anymore out of stealth (other than blasting module engineer, but that one is a complete meme), and no class is "non-interactable". And never has been. They even nerfed Mirage and Sword Weaver since.

> > > > >

> > > > > I wonder why you're claiming I "misplayed" when 1) he didn't kill me, and 2) you agreed that I cannot possibly kill the thief if he doesn't want to be killed.

> > > >

> > > > The thing is, if the thief is stupid enough to use in-combat stealth, thats one of the few ways that you can kill a thief. He is pretty shields down if he does that.

> > >

> > > That doesn't answer any of the points that were raised, unless you are arguing that Thief is broken but stealth isn't.

> >

> > To answer your points, you misplayed because you failed to kill him when he gave you the perfect opportunity to kill him with stealth. And nah, neither stealth nor thief are broken. Not being able to be killed isnt worth much if youre also not able to kill. Thief can only draw.

>

> Why don't you say he misplayed by giving me the opportunity to kill him then. You're really grasping at straws now, because the moment you acknowledge that Thieves cannot be killed unless they allow themselves to be killed, you back up my argument. Not going to respond anymore, because you are patently not getting it (e.g. by saying that you cannot interact with Weavers and Mirages, which indicates you don't understand and/or don't want to understand what "interact" means.)

>

> Thief is stupidly broken and needs to be nerfed into oblivion.

Man these threads these days. Dude u really need to l2p, u sound like a noob who's butt hurt cuz thieves farm u, especially on ur last statement of which ur making towards a class that got the job tittle decap bot and +1 for a reason. This whole BS gbage players post about a thief no being able to be killed unless it wants to is utter nonsense spoken by players who want easy kills instead of learning how to fight the class, god forbid other classes had to learn ALL the other classes and their common rotations to be effective, u guys cant learn one, seriously. Sure thief can use it's high mobility and access to stealth to avoid all engagements or leave a fight as soon as things get slightly dangerous but guess what? That thief will contribute very little to its team and the match. If a thief is +1ing and getting a lot of kills on u than u need to learn map awareness and not just spam ur cc. Aoe condies properly placed in the right spots are disastrous for a thief, hell I drop em and or cleave in their fields knowing their there to stacking stealth, works so often. Cc is so high in this game smart use of them combined with teefs squishyness makes quick burst kills on em easy. Most thieves are pretty predictable and stealth actually gives little defensive protection unless used from out of sight range because most leave tells on the ground and a thief can take all forms of damage while stealth'd, just cant be targeted except by channels. All classes have great defensive skills to basically nullify BS if used properly. Anyway this thread is a waste of time as the rework ur all wanting to stealth will never come, 1 cuz it's too late into the games life and 2 cuz most of u posters are clear in ur bias against the class and make suggestions that are unrealistic and would only serve to kill the class and cause a large number of players to quit the game which is already suffering a very low population. No ones left due to thief and if they had they would found something else to cry about and leave regardless.

> @"mtnjkbm.7452" said:

> thing is, a ronin is basically a japanese warrior so we already have that class in game. a greatsword wielding warrior class...

>

Well not all Japanese warriors were samurai and not all samurai were warriors or bushi. Warrior in mmo are called warrior cuz their the basic warrior archetype, samurai is not a basic warrior archetype. Technically all classes in gw2 are warriors, just of different verieties. Other than wearing armor and having access to banners nothing about a warrior class remotely resembles the fighting style of samurai, look at the gs skills lol. Thief at least uses skills that are found in ninjutsu and even are named as so, since ninjutsu was created by samurai I'd say ronin be a great thief spec. Could have bushi style gs strikes or dual swords.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

> > > You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> > > I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

> > >

> > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> > > BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> > > I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

> > >

> > > People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

> > > Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

> >

> > Actually that isn't why critical strikes thief isn't played. It isn't played because deadly arts with improv is more damage, utility, CC, and survival because stolen abilities are very overtuned in a post-feb game.

> >

> > Critical strikes is actually an insane amount of damage right now, but improv is just too busted when combined with how overtuned stolen abilities are. If they buffed crit strikes anymore thief would run around 1 shotting everyone from stealth.

> >

> > Shadow arts stealth uptime and stolen abilities just need to be nerfed.

>

> No one is picking DA either, its also bad. Critical Strikes is also *far* from "insane amounts of damage". And what, do you think theyre going to slap a 200% damage modifier into Crit Strikes? Because outside of that, there is no way thief is oneshotting *anyone*. Man for a self-proclaimed "thief main", you seem to not know thief well at all.

Man look on the guys other recent posts, he's complete bias incarnate regarding thief and clearly doesn't like the class so not much point going back and forth with him or the few other forumers that constantly go on about thief being OP broken non sense, they'll complain and complain in he Hope's one day anet will grant them their wish of rendering them completely useless, then of which they will still continue in Hope's for it to stay there.

I mean....they guy said CS is insane amounts of dps, that right there should tell u all u need to know about his bias etc.

Also we stated CS wasn't taken over DA cuz dps wasn't enough over DA's damage and utility package and he says we're wrong it's taken for improve and utilities which not only is improve utility he basically said what we did about why CS isn't taken, except for the Cs doing insane damage of course.

Just move on theres no end going back and forth with these posters, atleast while the class they dislike exists anyway.

> @"Junkpile.7439" said:

> It's kind of funny how thief fight back better than most core specs even when he is revealed.

Best 1v1'r in the game, f...... decaps emiright.

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> I don't entirely agree with point three.

> While I hate AFKers as much as most other people do, they are not always a guaranteed cause for losing matches.

> I've even seen teams with AFKers winning their matches.

A player/kill feeder is a good example of a player who can negatively effect the team to a greater degree than a afk'r lol

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

>

> What do you mean "first one". Its the *only* one. Youre not gonna get backstabbed by an enemy you were *already* fighting and had time to put weakness on you. Besides the fact that you likely already killed him or he had to run, even if he were to try and go for it, you would at best get fronstabbed.

>

> > You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> > I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

> >

>

> You didnt however give us the *context*. Here is the thing, as much as youre trying to push the lead attacks angle, that wouldnt explain it either. Lead Attacks maxes out at 15%. Ignoring that you never get to 15% for a second, even so, that fails to explain it. 5000\*1.15= 5750, not 7700. 3500\*1.15= 4025, not 5000. Youre missing another 25% damage modifier, or even more in the case of backstab. Hence my "25 stacks of vulnerability" comment.

>

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> > BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> > I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

> >

>

> Yeah Mesmer is in a poor state. It bursts much harder, and it does so from stealth as well, but that doesnt exactly save it. It lacks mobility and relevance outside of meme-y oneshots.

>

> > People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

>

> And that ... is a blatant lie. People did indeed try CS. But what they saw was quite unlike what youre trying to say. No, what they saw was that your damage was still bad. If you had every single damage multiplier active, you looked at about a gain of 600-700 damage. So instead of bursting for 5k, you burst for 5.7k. But it came with 3 big downsides. For one, the damage was less reliable. If just *one* of the multipliers went inactive, you already did about the same damage if not a tiny bit less than the SA version. If both went inactive (not unrealistic), then you suffered a *major* damage loss. Two, your damage did not ignore resistances. This meant you did *much* worse vs tankier builds. And 3, if you failed to crit, none of the damage multipliers would apply, and you would do a *ton* less damage. Critical Strikes was worse as a damage traitline. Its just garbage. Always has been. Oh and it scales worse as well.

>

> > Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

>

> Hahaha, no. Whats holding CS thief back is the fact that CS is a garbage traitline that underperforms even purely on the damage front compared to SA in an average scenario. In a 1v1, stealth doesnt matter, thieves can cleave through stealth, and your goal is to drop stealth ASAP anyway. SA does win the fight, but not because of stealth or some such rubbish, but because CS loses access to its multipliers quickly, and SA outdamages it.

The gbage dps gain from crit strikes in relation to utility gain is exactly why DA was takin as the defacto dps/utility line over CS which even now with the semi recent small buffs doesn't provide enough of a dps boost over DA to make it worth taking over DA. Anet said they want thief to do good burst dps but they want thief to have to take a damage line to do it, most thieves would be fine with that if anet devs actually knew their game and buffed CA enough to to be worth taking.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> @"UNOwen.7132" Didnt know that only backstab that matters is the first one that has 0 counterplay, if only I knew.

> You are right about armor, its 11,5% not 16% my bad.

> I gave you screens of over 5k hits in 1v1, skills that deal less dmg then backstab, the reason you dont get to hit big backstabs is that nobody lives long enough to let you hit with lead attacks, you hit from stealth for 5k, add some venoms and autos and the fight is over GG, and you dont need to restealth just switch to sb and spam ~4k clusters every 3s

>

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" full of boons and venoms -> LOL. thief runs no venom utilities or the stun elite. all the "venoms" and "leech" hit they get from their utility traitline, free 1k dmg every time they stealth, stealth instantly gives a venom and another after 3s. Such a huge investment.

> BTW I dont know how hard mirage bursts from stealth, the only power mirage that I have seen in ~300 games in plat games was me and vinq and he never bursted me from stealth, I dont even know if he runs any stealth other then 2s from midnight.

> I see more deadeyes then I see power mirages, heck I see more meme "1shot" staff thiefs then power mirages.

>

> People tried CS thief btw, it has the kind of damage that people want from thief, problem is you lose the cozy utility, and thief that can die when you kitten up is not the kind of thief people wanna play, so instead of giving up utility for damage people will whine to get it for free like the OP does right now.

> Ironically the only thing holding CS thief from being good is the fact that, shadow arts thief will kitten on you due to more stealth, and will get more openings on you and win the even fights.

Never said they used venom utilities, I assumed u were talking about the trait from SA. I swapped before I left the game to CS instead of SA because I figured SA was gonna be nerfed sooner or later. With twin fangs,practiced tolerance and no quarter with zerk and devinity runes I was backstabbing for 7k max if I had a lot of boons on my back from outside sources, even got some 6k HS but considering the burst potentials of classes that aren't even supposed to be burst oriented that's hardly amazing.

Same set up in wvw sometimes I'd get just over 10k backstabs and like above compared to what non bursty specs can burst for on some builds in wvw 10k on a rogue class is barely worth co complaining over, not until the numbers are less common atleast.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"UNOwen.7132"

> > > > >

> > > > > Let us see, hmmmmm

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > https://imgur.com/Z97N1q4

> > > > > https://imgur.com/iip2bMF

> > > > > https://imgur.com/h3NIVZ2

> > > > > https://imgur.com/blsfeAg

> > > > > https://imgur.com/zkCGJrg

> > > > > By looking through this I realized that as a mesmer dodging/avoiding backstab does jack kitten as thief counters you so kitten hard that you will die anyways.

> > > >

> > > > You seem to be running around with 25 vulnerability a lot. Maybe ... *dont* do that? You will find that your survivability improves by a massive amount if you decide to not have 25 stacks of vulnerability on you at all times.

> > >

> > > most of those are from 1v1 fights, no 25 vuln stacks at all, and even if its 1vX. Mesmer doesnt live long enough to get to 25vulnerability stacks.

> >

> > Then youre gonna have to explain where the damage is coming from. We already saw what the meta theif build hits for, and its *far* from the damage numbers youre showing. Hell, the cluster bomb hit harder than the actual meta backstab, despite the skill doing almost 20% less damage.

>

> nothing, 2/4 of those screens are from AT against meta build during 1v1, this is how much damage mesmer takes from a thief.

> No bullshitting, backstab hits harder, on mesmer its 5-7k hits from backstab, add in venoms and all the kitten and condi loses 50% hp, and my meme build 60-70% before I can react.

> 4-5k backstabs that you see are on heavy armor classes or classes that take extra toughness.

> for example power rev has 2342 armor, while mesmer condi or power runs with 1888. This means that mesmer takes ~24% more power damage, simply due to armor alone.

> So every time you land 5k backstab on rev. know that identical hit on mesmer would have been over 6k/

> Thief with divinity rune has 2107 armor, against mesmers 1888. Mesmer takes ~16% more damage. Again, that 4.6k backstab would have been 5,3k on mesmer.

> Add in weakening strikes, lead attacks and suddenly its over 6k hits easy peasy.

So when a thief is full of boons and venoms its backstab takes 50% of ur health hmmmm I'm sure people could post mirages doing their burst outa stealth leaving classes like thief at 0% not 50, I mean maybe the mesmer burst wouldnt drop a high sustain warrior but would chunk it far harder then a power thiefs backstab would. Do u deny mirages burst from stealth is far higher than thief's? I'm almost talking double the burst damage here. U hate ur counter and yeah plasma is strong but ur complaining about a classes burst dps when its less then ur own main, thief is more relevant then mesmer because it's mobility makes it great in a mode like conquest, definitely not cuz its burst damage, least not anymore.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"wevh.2903" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"wevh.2903" said:

> > > > > @"Tayga.3192" said:

> > > > > > @"wevh.2903" said:

> > > > > > Being meta doesnt mean it is not balanced ,

> > > > > Yes I agree, but thief is more than "meta". Look at any competitive team, they have 4 anything and 1 thief in their team.

> > > > >

> > > > > > mesmer could be with portal

> > > > > Yeah the ultimate "nobody uses" skill.

> > > >

> > > > Ye but thats not bad , thief makes game fluid and counters slowly stuff , i mean ofc it is good af there is no way to negate it but i feel its role totally needed.

> > > >

> > > > Also thief can co-exist with other roamer specs like power rev/nades holo or including mesmer. With portal i mean the not nerfed portal . This skills made pvp lot more competitive while making mesmer have some value over thief .

> > > >

> > >

> > > how can a mesmer exist in a game where every team is guarantee to have a hard counter to you? even funny you would put mesmer as a roamer, you know. To contest the thief that hard counters you. As long as thief is overpowered as kitten, and mandatory in every team. Mesmer will not be viable choice unless its equally overpowered as kitten.

> >

> > Mesmer was viable with portal roaming together with a thief. Ye both of them on a team comp .

> >

> > Mesmer with portal without actual nerf woulf be meta for sure . It allows to do a lot of stuff , conquest is about rotation and portal there is a masterpiece.

> >

> >

>

> its not a masterpiece when mesmer is so kitten its forced to use portal as a survivability tool every time. Its a win more ability, yes often its fun and you can make cool things but its a win more ability and those in general are unhealthy.

Remove sb 5 on thief, see how awesome it still is. U go on a out how broken thief is yet if u remove sb5 its basically in same position as mesmer, except mesmers gank outa stealthis 16k not 7k like a booned up power thief's burst. Yeah mesmers get countered by thief but thief has its counters as well, most classes do. Thief is taken every match because its mobility lends greatly to the cap/decap mechanic in conquest, if it was purely combat based thief would drop tiers fast. All mesmer needs is it portal back.

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> > > >

> > > > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

> > >

> > > Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

> >

> > I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

>

> I have been hit for upwards of 6k from cloak and dagger in 1v1, lacer/cluster/cod/shadowshot they all hit hard, backstab is ~~6-7k dmg, on the clown venom builds.

> then you add in ~2 auto hits, venom procs and you have your 10k dmg.

For one any class even tanks can get 10k over 4 hits and yes I've gotten 5k HS as well but I've been hit for 5+k singulair skills by almost every class so not sure what point ur making here, especially since I was talking backstab and also was regarding one skill not the total of many. I've been hit for 16-18k outa stealth a few times by mesmers so.... theirs burst is definitely not in top bracket these days and nor is daggeratorm in need of changes, it's fine as is, not underpowered or overpowered.

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"zarcon.7820" said:

> > > The only thief spec with reasonable dmg is deadeye. Dp is garbage and. A run around bot. With zero chasing potential. Also even deadeye i find in a trash position because of all the aoe and reflections and kitten. Theres no counter to bunkers in this game

> >

> > D/p Daredevils can burst 10k+ per steal and remove boons + daze while bursting.

>

> Youre a few months out of date. Or years even. D/P Daredevil doesnt burst anywhere *close* to 10k. It bursts around 4k-5k.

I've gotten 8.5k in wvw lol but yeah even on full zerk and CS dp hits for 5kish, if ur core u can add mug but man stars would have to align with out sourced boons etc to hit 10k backstab in conquest.

I find staff effective for pvp, dd/trick and CS can hit hard, I just find it's even spammier than other teef builds so got boring fast but if u really enjoy it go for it cuz if ur having fun everytime secondary.