Psycoprophet.8107

> @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

> > > its going to be a good change, since no one wants to play against a thief who resets and OOC during combat,

> > >

> > > so we can penalize thieves who OOC, via no initiative out of combat, and initiative decay when trying to escape from engagement.

> > >

> > > this will not affect PvE greatly since thieves just auto attack, and we dont have initial burst like other classes

> > >

> > >

> > They have to reset because over last few yrs thief has been nurfed to the ground because arenet pushing deadeye and because of cry babies,their too weak to stay and duel

> >

>

> not enough nerfs, since they say its not fun to play against a thief that resets the fight and comes back, in this proposed changes, thieves will be more committed to a fight

>

> no more resets, no more stealth spam, good old hard core toe to toe fighting

Core and DD need substantial buffs to realistically stand a chance at a tie to toe fight, but in reality us humans are selfish and Whiny lol so people who get out played by thief and somehow lose to the weaker thief spec excluding deadey cant handle that they lost(whiny) and people who main other classes will rally for any class they dislike to be nurfed to the ground so they can stomp it into the ground every fight with zero regard for the players that injoy the class. Which is why as bad as erenanet is at balancing listing to its community about how to deal with balancing is very bad

> @"Oldgrimm.8521" said:

> its going to be a good change, since no one wants to play against a thief who resets and OOC during combat,

>

> so we can penalize thieves who OOC, via no initiative out of combat, and initiative decay when trying to escape from engagement.

>

> this will not affect PvE greatly since thieves just auto attack, and we dont have initial burst like other classes

>

>

They have to reset because over last few yrs thief has been nurfed to the ground because arenet pushing deadeye and because of cry babies,their too weak to stay and duel

Maybe nurf it’s damage by 90% give other classes more powercrept mobility and damage so their further outperforming the thief at its own job, oh and make thief have half the endurance of other classes to to go along with the low hp, this way cry babies who get ganked by one won’t be so butt hurt and whine about it’s very existence haha

Not sure if this is troll post, if so nice! If not than making the class useless and never used would prob not be a decision arenet would prob think is not to desirable for business, tho I’d have to wonder somtimes

Bottom line is arenet balances classes based on pve and this has let to bad powercreep in pvp modes and some classes are at a huge disadvantage in a lot more combat scenarios than others. All the pvp modes are very poorly balanced no matter the communities excuses as to why it’s ok for certain professions to stand no chance against other in all but one scenario where others can be great in multiple scenarios, and I’m guesing ones saying it’s ok main bandwagon classes that do can do almost everything very well

I use full glass on my soulbeast for max dps,as long as I time my blocks and stone sig,bear invul and my unblockable attacks I can sustain a decent amount of time in a duel

> @"Kovu.7560" said:

> > @"XECOR.2814" said:

> > > @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> > > Some things are powerful on a large scale, some things are powerful on a small scale. Everything has a role or something it is better at than the rest. WvW is designed around large scale combat (15+) with small scale being a secondary concern. Meaning, anything that has an influence on large scale combat will be adjusted if it's over performing. Anything on the small scale will be left to it's devices until it either begins to effect the large scale, or it begins to break the game (such as by getting through objective walls or doing something unintended).

> > >

> > > The thing with the strong small scale classes like Ranger, Thief and Mesmer, is that their current design (mostly speaking about their PoF elite specs) allows them to be devastating _fringe fighters._ This means if they are co-ordinating with friends, or if they're skilled by themselves, they can be a serious threat to larger groups if they're ignored. They have mobility that allows them to escape if the group turns it's attention and they have skills that bypass or remove defenses to negate the _massive_ amount players will receive when in a large group (boons, heals, etc.). These are the things that make them such popular roamers and the things that become significantly more powerful in a 1v1. Without those things, they would have 0 chance to even approach a large group. With those things, they can put a dent in that group but are unlikely to completely dismantle it. Thus, their influence is not great enough to warrant nerfs but is both strong enough to participate in it on the fringe and to be oppressive in a 1v1.

> > >

> > > The issue is that large scale combat has become so tanky over the years that fringe fighters (pickers, roamers, floaters, what ever you want to call them) have needed massive buffs to compensate or they'd never be able to do anything to the blob. You could argue, "well, as long as they're strong as roamers they don't need to be able to hurt zergs!" but why should that be the case? It's nice to have a dynamic to WvW other than join the blob or die. Although we don't see it very often, there are players that form small pick squads to isolate and kill stragglers in zergs and can at times be very effective at this. It's an extremely fun way to play but is also incredibly unrewarding because of how much more difficult it is and how much less of an impact you have.

> > >

> > > It is absolutely true that many of the roaming classes have become OP, but so are the zerging classes. It's powercreep all around. The balance of it all is that everything is effective at something and some things are not as effective at others. You can fulfill any role with any profession but some may need additional support to realize their full potential. Targeting specific professions for significant nerfs is not the proper way to balance and diversify WvW. Adjustments across the board to allow for a more flexible meta is what should be done. Unfortunately, too many people have their noses buried in the numbers and all they see is "WOW THAT WAS LIKE HALF MY HEALTH, ANET PLS NERF."

> >

> > NO! There is a difference and ill tell you that. All classes that are roaming can also be part of a zerg on certain builds. Its not the mechanics, its the mentality of community that is stopping these classes. Majority of these classes already have a spec thats needed in current meta or have tools that if used in sync with correct comp can plough through enemies meta comp. Even thief and ranger can be used effectively to shave off people lagging behind and pin sniping. Its difficult but it can be done. You do not weigh these classes unviable for zerging based on difficulty.

> >

> > On the other hand we have some classes mainly necro that do not have roaming ability of any form in any spec, now you can argue about reaper or core, but you know any player of equal calibur on any class will kill them in seconds its not even funny. The class does not have mechanical tools to survive any form of roaming against decent enemies. Here the limitations is lack of tools and functionalities.

> >

> > Even if there was some way to play these classes on high difficulty to have upperhand on players of equal skill level. But no, you are still going to die as scourge by 10k autoattacks from ranger 2k units away no mattter if he joined wvw today and youre playing for 6yrs. This is not a counterplay, this is bad mechanics and discrimination.

>

> Darn. Wow.

>

> Those "10k 2k range" attacks are from optimally positioned full glass 25 might rangers against glassy often high vulnerability opponents whilst precisely 1k-1.5k (or whatever passes, with the buffer) range away, merged with their pet for the offensive buff, utilizing sic 'em, strength of the pack, possibly zephyr, several damage-oriented traits such as pet's prowess, quarry and/or (this is a big one) remorseless, some unblockable investment (for successfully shooting into that zerg), damage-oriented sigils, runes and offensive foods. Basically a one trick pony. These rangers that two shot you are one shot by thieves, chained down by mesmers and two shot by other rangers and warriors. Moreover, if you're running with a group and staying close to tag they're not as big of a threat to you and your group is a big threat to them and if they're running a complete offense they're likely short on the tools required to retreat when someone from your group with a decent amount of mobility so much as breathes in their general direction. Say what you will, that takes some skill, luck and investment to pull off once.

>

> Yes, a thief or ranger could contribute.

> But in a large group composition, if you got to pick and choose each of your professions for total control over your composition, would you ever have a reason to take a thief or ranger's glassy nature and single target damage over a necromancer or guardian for the purposes of contributing to a large scale _sustained_ fight? No. You'd only ever ask for them if you needed some effective scouting done or a keep retapped. Any anywho, I murder warriors on my scourge solo all of the time, yet have difficulty with warriors whilst playing my ranger due to their inherent tankiness against power damage and tools to keep the gap closed. If someone could name a hard counter more true than ranger > necromancer in this game I'd love to hear it, people continually bring up the most extreme examples while trying to make their points (as I illustrated above) instead of acknowledging the average situation. I wouldn't be against necromancers having more tools to deal with ranged spam in general but necro players shouldn't go crying about rangers under the impression they eat the other professions as easily as the meta necro. As for the topic at hand, @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" pretty much has the right of it.

>

> ~ Kovu

Let’s not pretend glass builds other than thief and ele exist. Every other profession can have glass specs but with multiple block and invulnerability skills at their disposal they are not to glassy anymore

Literally players just hop up and down messing around in a group of four enemies that have to chase around and take forever to kill,and almost take out all 4 players kitten ridiculous

What I find really funny is in wvw how a mesmer or ranger can literally keep up with u when u try and run and will just tear u apart,mobility has been handed out soo much that thief is barely ahead,with everything those classes have,yea that’s balance

Again u prob play necro more than I do so u would kno better than me prob lol so maybe their in a great spot, I just feel out sustained and out maneuver while on necro

But I agree with u on killing blow

Picking the two glassy classes with shit sustain isn’t a good argument

20 k is nothing to guard,Warr, holo, mirage,soulbeast etc, they have more than enough ways to shrug the reaper burst and return with a veriety of ways to down u having better boon uptime,better offensive boons,equal if not more damage and still some sustain options left over to deal with any necro spec other than maybe scourge aoe spam in a Zerg of course

i Still stand by what I said and I did NOT mention thief my main or ele because those are the two other classes that I think are falling behind the powercreep, excluding DE cheese

Lack of counter play can somtimes be issue tho powercreep is more often the prob

I think that other than boon and boon duration slightly lowered rangers are fine. U cant hate on them because the protection up time or block and invulnerability skills because all the other classes exept thief,necro etc have them to and their damage is inline with a lot of specs. Yeah it’s ranged and tho ranger doesn’t mean bow user it’s often a mainstay in the character architecture so why shouldn’t it be effective? Maybe arenet shoulda been sure to add a counter option to ALL classes like a 3 sec invulnerability to projectile only that’s on a low Cooldown. That way u could use it strategically to shut down the ranger ranged damage and if u don’t too bad ur gonna pay and die from ranged

People can talk about all the sustain and damage reaper have or how good death shroud is for sustain or how scourge can do great aoe cheese spam doesn’t change the fact the skills it’s been given are behind the skills of other classes when in comparison, and yea everything works somtimes lol, I don’t really play a ton of necro compared to other classes so maybe my impressions are wrong on the few 100 hrs I’ve only spent on it and really don’t get to effected by its state lol just feel for other people

20k is not dangerous, u get the player un aware or if thier bad it is but u try and bait out their invulnerability or block skills before u do ur 20k burst and ur dead cuz no decent sustain and ull prob be downed,do ur burst and a good player blocks and or invulnerability thus uses thier great defensive abilities to render ur 20k to 0, and now ur burstless ,no mobility to run and have no good sustain,awsome

Arenet needs to stop balancing classes for pve only and make balance changes for all modes that only effect said modes, not most cost effective but would be good for health and longevity of the game

Scourge is strong aoe spam so great in wvw zergs but a lot of people want to play necro and feel competitive without aoe spamming, least I do anyway

> @"Axl.8924" said:

> Part of the issue is that you cant have a class that has too much sustain, and too much damage. Reaper has quite a bit of sustain, even if its just flat out having lots of hp and having shroud that counts as a second health bar, and having that combined with damage is seen as too strong. Balancing will always be seen as problematic having them combined, also with the aoe attacks of melee range from reaper as well.

>

> Also spvp is about teamplay.

>

> Some builds are all about single target damage and being able to roam like daredevil and holosmith, and some are about teamplay like firebrand scourge and reaper.

>

> People already complain about reaper damage when combined with firebrand, because a reaper babysat can wreak havoc on point.

Reaper shroud is gbage sustain and hp mean little with damage that’s being thrown around, saying that a class is good damage while needing to be baby sat by another class shows a problem with said class,doesn’t hit any harder than most classes yet has lowest mobility. It can debuff so there’s that

> @"Asahi.1487" said:

> Typical anet dumbing down the game in response to the QQers. I think we need more passive defenses still.

> Assassin's signet doesn't even compare to signet of might. I'll take 5s of unblockable over the kitten we have. rangers and even warriors with their unblockable does "1shot" alot better

This ^

> @"zinkz.7045" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > This is why arenet should hire a group of skilled knowledgeable players that play all professions often that have the least bias and can be objective to be the ones the bounce the balance ideas off of or they themselves play their game and all its modes with all its classes on a regular basis, though I understand why most developers don’t. They deff shouldn’t listen to us randoms or any build that’s balanced but annoying will get nurfed from whiners and any lesser popular classes will stay behind

>

> Anyone skilled and knowledgeable knows they can't balance the game across PvP conquest, PvE raids, WvW zergs, WvW roamers, etc. Which is exactly why they don't bother at all for roaming and barely bother with WvW fullstop.

This is very true but theirs no reason why after this many yrs classes couldn’t have been altered to preform in each mode to crest a more even playing field, even though even then 100% balance is unattainable. But that’s costly and unlikely so my suggestion though wouldn’t be a perfect fix I think classes would be atleast far more balanced in regards to competing with each other classes kits

Thrives be like gank oh shit invulnerability skill, k hold on I’ll be right back after I reset, gank oh cmon a block? Ok wait here another sec I’ll be right back, gank man an evede frame cmon fine I’ll just fight, wait where’d my sword go? Is this styrofoam? Followed by 2 hits and ur downed unless u run lol

Nowadays u get ganked by soulbeast,mirage and holo more often and is deadlier than the ACTUAL gank class lol