Tyson.5160

> @"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:

> Right. In the south-east corner, near the Alcazia Tangle exit, there's a village populated with dead Shining Blade and live krait. (Pretty clear-cut environmental storytelling there.) There's also a crazy spider lady off in the south-west, but there's nothing linking her to the site save proximity.

>

> While the structures are, as far as I know, unique models- they look like someone took the foundations of the ruins in the region and built human-style huts on them- they certainly aren't close to the hylek or asura styles, and the krait didn't have architecture in GW1. And while the only corpses there are Shining Blade, unless the rebels started resettlement initiatives in the middle of the civil war, they didn't build it either. The most likely answer seems to be that it was a Krytan-origin village, like Tarnished Haven and like Ronan's village before the war, that the Shining Blade got involved with defending and/or retaking.

Ah yes, I remember that area and always found it a little odd.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> In addition to that, there are no ruins near the Ullen River; they were further south, quite a bit away from the Krytan influences in the Tarnished Coast (namely Tarnished Haven, which was a settlement established by Krytan exiles). However, there's a major thing countering the belief that the ruins are of mursaat origin - in addition to the fact that it doesn't come close to the designs of the Ring of Fire structures or Bastion of the Penitent there is also, as I say to Randulf down below:

>

> > @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > The Asura made a surfacing in 1078 during EOTN where we encountered those ruins and they started to take over that area and establish an early Rata Sum. Its been long speculated to be a Mursaat city ever since GW1, but I feel like ive read a debunking of this theory a few times over the years. I just cant place what that is.

>

> AFAIK, there is no explicit confirmation either way, but the GW1 ruins used the same exact art assets as we saw with the Central Transfer Chamber, and Rata Pten, a pre-Cataclysm surface asura city, uses the same designs as the few similar ruins in GW2 left (which are also present in the cave in eastern Straits of Devastation).

“I spoke with Jeff Grubb about this and here is what we have to say: The architecture of the Tarnished Coast is a combination of preexisting architecture with Asuran modifications. Who that preexisting architecture belonged to? We don't yet know. It could have been Orrian, the Seers or even the Mursaat. That is yet to be discovered, but one thing is for sure, there was once a civilization situated in the Tarnished Coast before the Asura arrived there. :D - User Linsey Murdock sig.jpgLinsey talk 22:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)”

That’s the quote from Lindsey regarding the ruins.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Kossage.9072" said:

> > > The [recent German interview](http://www.buffed.de/Guild-Wars-2-Spiel-17072/Specials/Interview-Alles-oder-Nichts-1274436/) about Episode 5 gave us an update from Linsey Murdock regarding Zojja's absence (translated from German source):

> > >

> > > > **Linsey Murdock, Design Lead:** Zojja was badly wounded in the fight against Mordremoth. The blighting pods have attacked the greatest strengths of Logan and Zojja. For Logan it was his physical talent, but for Zojja it was her mind. Traumatic brain injuries can lead to a long healing process and often have ongoing negative effects. I think Zojja's loved ones want to protect her from the ongoing conflict so she can concentrate on her recovery.

> > >

> > > I wish this information carried into the game with some off-hand remark from some related ally, either voiced or in some written optional dialogue box. It feels weird to see Snaff without allowing Zojja to be briefly reunited with her dear mentor so they can have proper closure (and maybe even give some to Eir and Zojja as I believe Zojja still isn't aware of Eir's passing).

> > >

> > > Zojja was at least [considered](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45957/destinys-edge) for Episode 2 (where she would've been kidnapped by the "bad guy") before the Season 4 rewrites, so it seems the Narrative Team is waiting for a proper opportunity to include Zojja into the story again while using her recovery from the Mordrem Pod as a reason for her absence for the time being. With the introduction of Overseer Kuda, Kudu's daughter (or at least it's heavily implied to be so), and her continuing Kudu's crosscorruption research via Subject Beta (whose very existence, along with Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster and arguably Kudu himself before his demise, proves Canach and Taimi's statements in "The Crystal Blooms" wrong as dragon minions can indeed be crosscorrupted with sylvari immunity being a special exception), I'd be surprised if Zojja intends to stay put as soon as she's able to move as she should be fully aware of the dangers her archenemy Kudu's research can bring forth, especially if Kuda (who curiously seems to share Zojja's facial features) proves to be as cunning as her late father in pursuing such unnatural avenues of science...

> >

> > The cross corrupted may be special exceptions to the rule as Anet is advising that dragon minions can’t be corrupted by other dragon’s.

>

> Except that HoT promotions (and S2) established that the sylvari's immunity came from the Dream, not from them being dragon minions. Unless ArenaNet's just playing amnesia (again), it wouldn't be that dragon minions can't be corrupted by other dragons. Only sylvari are, and only thanks to the Dream.

>

> Mordremoth never corrupted the sylvari, but used the Dream to mindfuck them into servitude.

>

> (Huh, the censorship isn't working on that iteration of the F word there for me... Interesting)

This is what I thought as well, however seems Anet now has a different thought in mind. They have an npc ask it then a dev advises about this as well.

Much like how after Zhaitan’s death the other dragons were able to make minions from the dead, even though there other sprinkles of information stating otherwise.

Wasn’t the gift of true sight given to Chosen, much like how the Commander and Livia can see Lazarus in Orr?

> @"Gern.2978" said:

> Did they ever say where the Mursaat city that Saul D'Alessio saw is? It's got to be close to Kryta, given that he walked to it. But I certainly don't know of any Mursaat cities nearby, certainly none that look like he described with "golden towers that reach to the heavens."

I would think possibly around the area of Bastion of the penitent. During the raid it’s advised that they could be phasing in and out of Tyria.

> @"Palador.2170" said:

> > @"Mickey Frogeater.1470" said:

> > Vlast didn't leave a corpse... He is free of his burden as he has no body to return to.

>

> Oh, if only he was so lucky. If we replaced the Life and Death dragons, do you really think it would be that hard to make him a new body? Heck, grab the remains of the Death-Branded Shatterer, and use those if need be. Or just grow him a body, then crystalize it.

Kralkatorrik was able to death brand the Shatterer, so I don’t see any reason why Vlast couldn’t be death branded as well.

> @"Kossage.9072" said:

> The [recent German interview](http://www.buffed.de/Guild-Wars-2-Spiel-17072/Specials/Interview-Alles-oder-Nichts-1274436/) about Episode 5 gave us an update from Linsey Murdock regarding Zojja's absence (translated from German source):

>

> > **Linsey Murdock, Design Lead:** Zojja was badly wounded in the fight against Mordremoth. The blighting pods have attacked the greatest strengths of Logan and Zojja. For Logan it was his physical talent, but for Zojja it was her mind. Traumatic brain injuries can lead to a long healing process and often have ongoing negative effects. I think Zojja's loved ones want to protect her from the ongoing conflict so she can concentrate on her recovery.

>

> I wish this information carried into the game with some off-hand remark from some related ally, either voiced or in some written optional dialogue box. It feels weird to see Snaff without allowing Zojja to be briefly reunited with her dear mentor so they can have proper closure (and maybe even give some to Eir and Zojja as I believe Zojja still isn't aware of Eir's passing).

>

> Zojja was at least [considered](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/45957/destinys-edge) for Episode 2 (where she would've been kidnapped by the "bad guy") before the Season 4 rewrites, so it seems the Narrative Team is waiting for a proper opportunity to include Zojja into the story again while using her recovery from the Mordrem Pod as a reason for her absence for the time being. With the introduction of Overseer Kuda, Kudu's daughter (or at least it's heavily implied to be so), and her continuing Kudu's crosscorruption research via Subject Beta (whose very existence, along with Subject Alpha, Kudu's Monster and arguably Kudu himself before his demise, proves Canach and Taimi's statements in "The Crystal Blooms" wrong as dragon minions can indeed be crosscorrupted with sylvari immunity being a special exception), I'd be surprised if Zojja intends to stay put as soon as she's able to move as she should be fully aware of the dangers her archenemy Kudu's research can bring forth, especially if Kuda (who curiously seems to share Zojja's facial features) proves to be as cunning as her late father in pursuing such unnatural avenues of science...

The cross corrupted may be special exceptions to the rule as Anet is advising that dragon minions can’t be corrupted by other dragon’s.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > I wouldn't really consider "rising a bunch of land" to be tied to its domain. I mean, Primordus did the same with Draconis Mons when he showed up, and Jormag shattered the Shiverpeaks after it woke up. The rising of Orr seemed more akin to just simply "lots of magical might" and not "power of the domain of shadows!"

> >

> > Sure, but with both those examples you have Primordus rising a volcano and Jormag smashing mountains of snow and ice, which would include those domains. Then you have Orr which was cursed with undeath when it sank to the bottom of the ocean. I also wouldn’t really think this is shadow magic per say, but rather death magic.

> >

> > Is it a coincidence? Maybe or maybe I’m just looking to deep into it, when the devs may have thought, this would be cool.

>

> The Shiverpeaks isn't made of ice and snow. They're covered by ice and snow... An Draconis Mons wasn't an active volcano until Primordus showed up.

>

> I think you're just looking too deep into it.

“Magical might” just seems like a cop out to me, for establishing that these dragon only operate in their domains, when first introduced. Ah well another lore question to ask in the next monthly afc.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> I wouldn't really consider "rising a bunch of land" to be tied to its domain. I mean, Primordus did the same with Draconis Mons when he showed up, and Jormag shattered the Shiverpeaks after it woke up. The rising of Orr seemed more akin to just simply "lots of magical might" and not "power of the domain of shadows!"

Sure, but with both those examples you have Primordus rising a volcano and Jormag smashing mountains of snow and ice, which would include those domains. Then you have Orr which was cursed with undeath when it sank to the bottom of the ocean. I also wouldn’t really think this is shadow magic per say, but rather death magic.

Is it a coincidence? Maybe or maybe I’m just looking to deep into it, when the devs may have thought, this would be cool.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > The death touched shatterer is depicted in "shadows." It just seems more appropriate to classify him as death-touched because he was recreated/risen. But he's really just a collection of crystal similar to the way a destroyer is a collection of rock and lava.

>

> I don't see anything shadow about the Death-Branded Shatterer. Nothing about his appearance suggests shadow, nor none of his abilities.

>

> Zhaitan's death domain did affect the landscape too, btw. So it'd make sense it'd affect the Shatterer.

You brought up a very good point, Konig and something I wanted to touch on too. Orr used to be on the bottom of the ocean floor. The Undead Dragon raised it from the depths. I would suspect Zhaitan was able to do this because of all the living and dead organism plants, trees maybe dirt from decomposed people and animals as well and brought it all to the surface. Even the coral and sea creatures that would have covered Orr while on the ocean floor would be dragged up, too I imagine. I do wonder about stone though, statues etc. Non organic things. Like I was saying earlier maybe that is where some of this shadow magic comes in.

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > > So minor spoilers from the new episode.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > depends on what crystal magic actually entails. (is it a particular type of crystal or is it broader. and if the second, just how broad is it)

> > > > >

> > > > > Well it could be prophecy(which could be an extension of crystal) and then you also have the fact that the Zephyrites use the powers that they recovered from Glint, including air, storm and sun. So where does fit in this whole scheme, I don’t know. I do hope the devs reveal what’s Kralkatorrik’s second sphere of influence is.

> > > >

> > > > Its been so long, so I don't remember who it was, but someone suggested crystal contains prophecy because of the trope of crystal balls.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > More than just the trope, vision crystals have been a thing from the start too.

> >

> > I think it was also suggested in another thread that water could have similar capability. Which leads me to believe that maybe reflection/prophecy is something that Kralk and DSD could have in common down the road.

> >

> > On my earlier statement, upon looking at that diagram of the All again.

> >

> > It sort of lines up.

> >

> > With the diagonal lines drawn between Primordus and Kralk, perhaps on Zhaitan's side the line that runs through the medium circle could be death as we've seen death touched kralk minions and death touched primordus minions. On mordremoth's side it gets a little fuzzier though, because that would imply that the corresponding circle on Mordy's side would be either mind or vine. I believe we've seen vine-touched Jormag minions, which leads me to believe that following the same pattern, the Mordy-medium circle that Zhaitan and Primordus share would be mind. Which doesn't add up because we've seen vine-touched destroyers.

> >

> > I don't know. I digress.

> >

> > Next patch we could have some being from the mists come and tell us something completely different about the All and change everything. Or some random asura could pop out and use Omadd's Machine 2.0 to just rearrange it however they see fit while simultaneously putting all the remaining dragons to sleep. Or we could just have Caithe become some super Saiyan tree goddess and replace all the dragons at this point. As much as you try to predict and make sense out of everything, in the end the writers will do what they're going to do. Can't really apply logic to any of this in the end anyway.

> >

>

> Jormag got some of Zhaitan's and Mordremoth's domains after their death, same with Primordus and Kralkatorric. There's not really any indication that there are shared domains otherwise. We don't really know anything about the sea dragon.

So it seems both Primordus and Jormag both obtained the Death and Plant magic spheres from Zhaitan and Mordremoth respectively. This is shown with the death and vine touched destroyers and the unstable abomination, from Jormag, which is harmed by plant and death as well.

Kralkatorrik on the other hand seems to have absorbed the Death and Mind spheres and unfortunately we have no evidence that Kralkatorrik obtained the plant sphere as he has not shown any abilities with plant magic. Clearly Kralkatirrik has made use of death magic with death branded and the inquest from Rata Primus advised that Kralkatorrik has augmented his minions with the mind sphere, giving them an increased hive mind when it comes to minions, minions knowing what other minions are doing.

> @"XenoSpyro.1780" said:

> I don't remember seeing this. Looks like some more Rev voices gimmicks, and Necro is also capable of seeing it. Mists and death 'n whatnot.

I saw this on my thief too, just spawned out of nowhere and said a few things.

I liked the story mode/ explorable paths that dungeons offered, which you don’t really get with Fractals. Fractals are suppose to be somewhat quick areas of instanced content.

I wouldn’t mind if they released a new dungeon for Heart of Maguuma involving Malyck. Then have a Path of Fire dungeon involving something else.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"derd.6413" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > So minor spoilers from the new episode.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > depends on what crystal magic actually entails. (is it a particular type of crystal or is it broader. and if the second, just how broad is it)

> >

> > Well it could be prophecy(which could be an extension of crystal) and then you also have the fact that the Zephyrites use the powers that they recovered from Glint, including air, storm and sun. So where does fit in this whole scheme, I don’t know. I do hope the devs reveal what’s Kralkatorrik’s second sphere of influence is.

>

> Its been so long, so I don't remember who it was, but someone suggested crystal contains prophecy because of the trope of crystal balls.

>

>

That makes sense too, again, I hope they state it somehow in the coming episodes about what his second sphere is.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tom Abernathy II.5241" said:

> > > @"Dark Red Killian.3946" said:

> > > Great story! Love reading about the lore. It got me thinking though when he mentioned Kralk going off to the mists and if we beat him all of Tyria will be gone. What happens if Kralk is beaten in the Mists? What happens then??

> >

> > This is EXACTLY the salient question.

>

> I hope this isn't a hint that the solution will end up being "kill Kralkatorrik in the Mists and the world is saved". I'm not opposed to Aurene's death being permanent, but having that as the solution would pretty much make the entirety of Season 3 and Path of Fire pointless. It would make the already crudely forced antagonism with Balthazar (*we* were the ones who initiated hostility for *no reason* besides "someone is exploiting the White Mantle and offered to use them to assist us!" as if we hadn't done [the exact same thing](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Frozen_in_Ice) in that very season) even worse off because it would mean that Balthazar could have just taken in their magic and everything would have been dandy, that Taimi's prediction that The All needs 4+ Elder Dragons to remain stable, but because she forgot to carry the one that is "what happens if we kill Elder Dragons *and* reduce the quantities of magic?".

>

> It would make the repeated statements by Taimi and Sadizi that "the death of one more Elder Dragons will tip The All irrevocably out of balance" to be moot and pointless, and making us hate ourselves for ever not going "okay Balthazar, eat up Kralkatorrik's magic and save the world!" instead of what we did ("If you kill any Elder Dragon, the world dies!")

>

> I tend to love the whole "the hero makes the situation worse before fixing it", but not if our attempts to fix our making it worse make it worse because a teenager forgot to carrying the damned one and an old man who *should* know his stuff apparently didn't.

>

> /endrant

Perhaps this is an opportunity to see what unbalanced magic looks like when there is not enough magic in the world. We have seen what happens with too much magic, maybe now we will see what happens when it tips the other way now too.

Ogden Stonehealer: Too much magic, and the world spins out of control. Too little, and it crumbles into darkness.

> @"perilisk.1874" said:

> So, the Commander crying is now canon, huh? Would have thought s/he would have hardened up after the first 1000 NPCs were killed off. Where are Tybalt's tears, you kitten?

Aurene was described as a daughter to them... Like losing a child... Who doesn’t cry over that?

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > 1. Flame Legion are the ones who recovered Sohothin, I find this interesting as a) how did they learn it was there, b) how did they get a squad to the Ring of Fire and back given this would likely take place ~1300 AE? Only took 7 years for them to reveal how Rytlock got Sohothin.

>

> Anyway this really fit very much on Flame Legion theme of going after "fire magic" and would add **c)** Why was Sohotin in the Ring of Fire? There is a potential interesting sub-history here: did someone reignite her on the volcano? Does the Volcano have magical properties that could be potentiated with it? Someone bring it to create some powerful fire magic stuff?

>

> Indirectly they answered a question I made here on another topic, if Sohotin is so powerful, why did Rytlock simply not lend her to the commander again?

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Prince_Rurik

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Did they bring the forgotten though? I thought the forgotten were part of the Elder Races, with the Mursaat, Seers, Jotun and Dwarves. Even the Mursaat tablets in ember bay advised that the forgotten and Mursaat attempted to defeat Zhaitan and failed.

>

> Given the Forgotten in Nightfall, they've been known to and of the Six for eons. In particular is [Keeper of Light](https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Keeper_of_Light), though other Forgotten who are apparently thousands of years old are suggested. But it's pretty heavily confirmed, the Forgotten have worshiped and revered the Six very, very, very long ago. Since the "First Sun" if not sooner.

>

> Even in GW2, there are mentions of them [coming from the Mists](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten "coming from the Mists") and [serving the Six more than Glint](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Crystalline_Memories#In_Glint.27s_Lair "serving the Six more than Glint").

Yeah, I understand that they worship and revere the Six, however the Six showed up in Tyria in 786 BE, while the forgotten were around since like 10,000 BE and beyond, since the last dragon rising. I figured that the Forgotten story has since changed, like the Bloodstone history, Glint’s history and so forth.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > If raids as they are, do not survive in GW2, then they will take a spot just like dungeons and become side content. The game as a whole might very well remain successful, as it has now.

> >

> > I suspect this will be the final outcome. When Raids become this side content, then I think an easy mode will be created. Off the side of someone’s desk.

> By that time there would be no point in doing it, as the raiding population will become too small. More likely that even before reaching that point raid encountes will simply start getting "tweaks" and "balance passes" that will make them easier. It will be a finishing blow to the hardcore raider community, but will open the content for a wider, more mainstream audience.

> If it's not one major overhaul, but continuous tweaking, it won't require a lot of an effort and could be easily done without impacting work on other things that are "more important for the game than easy mode raids".

Yeah it’s hard to say, there is always the potential that after wing 7, the devs may hang up the gloves on Raids.

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"norbes.3620" said:

> > > > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > > > @"Gern.2978" said:

> > > > > > I'm eager for just about ANY information concerning the water dragon. Because it's the last piece of the puzzle. It will either confirm or deny that there is some kind of relationship between the Elder Dragons and The Six.

> > > > >

> > > > > ArenaNet has already debunked the potential connection between the Elder Dragons and the Six, about half a dozen times over.

> > > > >

> > > > > At this point, the only connection the two groups may have is that the Six fulfilled the role of balancing their homeworld's antikythera / The All just as the Elder Dragons do for Tyria. If so, then there's a potential issue with having beings that share magic rather than hoard it, as I don't think the Six count as hoarders (or maybe they did but in a non-lethal/civilization destroying manner and they didn't yet know the ramifications, and that's why the Forgotten press for beings that share?).

> > > >

> > > > Well we DO know that the six were forced to leave their homeworld and took a good share from the local civilisation along with them.

> > > >

> > > > we DONT know why they had to leave that place. only that it was near destruction of some Kind. no reason, no why, nothing beyond that so it could indeed be possible that the six are related to the destruction of that world. im not even sure if the word "destruction" is mentioned. but nevertheless it's still some Kind of catastrophy wich is.. not Holding much Information cuz thats indeed pretty vague

> > >

> > > Technically, we don't know any of that. We know they brought humans and Forgotten, but we don't know why they left. It's speculation from suggestions that the world was in devastation or facing catastrophy. And players got that from the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls[Orrian History Scrolls](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls) which state:

> > >

> > > 1. That Dwayna chose Tyria and "brought those who would make [it] a paradise" and that she had "led her people to peace."

> > > 2. That Balthazar entered the world carrying his father's head.

> > > 3. While the other five focused on building a home Lyssa "gave them joy and helped them forget the past" with it being unclear if "them" refers to humanity, the gods, or both.

> > > 4. That "what passed beyond in the Mists, only [Abaddon] remember."

> > >

> > > * This suggests some sort of calamity or war, as Dwayna wouldn't be coming from a paradise to seek a paradise, she wouldn't be coming from peaceful lands to lead people to peace.

> > > * Balthazar carrying his father's head has unclear context - did Balthazar kill him and he carried the head in brutal victory? Was his father killed and he carried the head as a memento mori of past failures? Some other reason?

> > > * Lyssa's line suggests that whatever happened in the past, it was traumatizing, otherwise forgetting the past wouldn't bring joy. Yet only Abaddon (and now Kormir given she gained his knowledge) knows what happened then. Incidentally, Abaddon was the only one who was so gung ho for spreading magic, so maybe that was related to what happened.

> > >

> > > Point being, we do not _know_ it was some calamity or destruction. It could have been just constant strife and war the gods tired of. Though it is _suggested_ to be something major for six nigh all-powerful beings to take two species and leave it instead of settling matters. But we don't know they "had to leave", just that they did leave.

> >

> > Did they bring the forgotten though? I thought the forgotten were part of the Elder Races, with the Mursaat, Seers, Jotun and Dwarves. Even the Mursaat tablets in ember bay advised that the forgotten and Mursaat attempted to defeat Zhaitan and failed.

>

> They are part of the Elder Races, but are not native to Tyria

>

> https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forgotten

Yeah, no, but what I’m saying is was it ever confirmed that the gods brought the forgotten to Tyria in the first place or was it part of the rewritten history.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"norbes.3620" said:

> > > @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > > > @"Gern.2978" said:

> > > > I'm eager for just about ANY information concerning the water dragon. Because it's the last piece of the puzzle. It will either confirm or deny that there is some kind of relationship between the Elder Dragons and The Six.

> > >

> > > ArenaNet has already debunked the potential connection between the Elder Dragons and the Six, about half a dozen times over.

> > >

> > > At this point, the only connection the two groups may have is that the Six fulfilled the role of balancing their homeworld's antikythera / The All just as the Elder Dragons do for Tyria. If so, then there's a potential issue with having beings that share magic rather than hoard it, as I don't think the Six count as hoarders (or maybe they did but in a non-lethal/civilization destroying manner and they didn't yet know the ramifications, and that's why the Forgotten press for beings that share?).

> >

> > Well we DO know that the six were forced to leave their homeworld and took a good share from the local civilisation along with them.

> >

> > we DONT know why they had to leave that place. only that it was near destruction of some Kind. no reason, no why, nothing beyond that so it could indeed be possible that the six are related to the destruction of that world. im not even sure if the word "destruction" is mentioned. but nevertheless it's still some Kind of catastrophy wich is.. not Holding much Information cuz thats indeed pretty vague

>

> Technically, we don't know any of that. We know they brought humans and Forgotten, but we don't know why they left. It's speculation from suggestions that the world was in devastation or facing catastrophy. And players got that from the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls[Orrian History Scrolls](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls) which state:

>

> 1. That Dwayna chose Tyria and "brought those who would make [it] a paradise" and that she had "led her people to peace."

> 2. That Balthazar entered the world carrying his father's head.

> 3. While the other five focused on building a home Lyssa "gave them joy and helped them forget the past" with it being unclear if "them" refers to humanity, the gods, or both.

> 4. That "what passed beyond in the Mists, only [Abaddon] remember."

>

> * This suggests some sort of calamity or war, as Dwayna wouldn't be coming from a paradise to seek a paradise, she wouldn't be coming from peaceful lands to lead people to peace.

> * Balthazar carrying his father's head has unclear context - did Balthazar kill him and he carried the head in brutal victory? Was his father killed and he carried the head as a memento mori of past failures? Some other reason?

> * Lyssa's line suggests that whatever happened in the past, it was traumatizing, otherwise forgetting the past wouldn't bring joy. Yet only Abaddon (and now Kormir given she gained his knowledge) knows what happened then. Incidentally, Abaddon was the only one who was so gung ho for spreading magic, so maybe that was related to what happened.

>

> Point being, we do not _know_ it was some calamity or destruction. It could have been just constant strife and war the gods tired of. Though it is _suggested_ to be something major for six nigh all-powerful beings to take two species and leave it instead of settling matters. But we don't know they "had to leave", just that they did leave.

Did they bring the forgotten though? I thought the forgotten were part of the Elder Races, with the Mursaat, Seers, Jotun and Dwarves. Even the Mursaat tablets in ember bay advised that the forgotten and Mursaat attempted to defeat Zhaitan and failed.

Any new features that can be added to the PvP features list. You guys managed to scratch a bunch of items off the list. Well done. Anything for the pvpers to look forward too?

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> I found this article which seems like a counterpoint to @"Hesione.9412"

> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5005963/

>

> > @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > good leadership needs empathy.

> >

> > a lot of CEOs and other 'economical leaders', also politicians lack empathy

> >

> > which is why they are horrible leaders and only interested in their own well being.

> >

> > Please show me a good politican working for the good of his/her nation?

> >

> > hm....

> >

> > a good CEO that does more than artificially pumping the stock prize to make his options more valuable?

> >

> > eh....

> >

>

> CEOs in the US are obliged to maximize shareholder value as far as I know. So how would they be horrible leaders if they succeed at that goal? Just because you don't agree with it?

Ok cool, but the story goes to shit, if the Commander is a robot psychopath. It makes for shit and lazy writing with a terrible story.

> @"Daniel Handler.4816" said:

> divine magic now?

> Just before Kralkatorrik fires his megalaser, the Antikythera from our vision circles his mouth, and Mordremoth, Zhaitain, and Balthazar appear. But the vast majority of the magic Balthazar released should have been from the bloodstone/Primoridius/Jormag, with only a small fraction being his leftover divinity. Wouldn't it make more sense for four dragons to have appeared? Does this mean gods convert the magic they consume like dragons?

I suspect as much, otherwise Kralkatorrik would in theory have the magic of 5 Elder Dragons including his own. Also Balthazar would have technically absorbed Zhaitan and Mordremoth magic from the Bloodstone.

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> Dunno about the statue thing, but Zhaitan's certainly capable of corrupting the landscape and always has been from a lore perspective. The Art of Guild Wars 2 has a description of such: "The breath of the dragons exudes their essence, twisting creatures, landscapes, and all things caught in their exhalation into a mimicry of the dragon's power. For the undead dragon, Zhaitan, this means his minions and landscapes are images of decay, watery decomposition, undeath, swampy morass, sickness, and pestilence."

>

> If we take that, and divide into two spheres, I suppose decay, decomposition, and undeath can go under death, while the rest under others go under shadow? A morass by either definition doesn't really relate to death directly, and while sickness and pestilence can (such as some GW1 death magic skills), I could also see them relating to a more metaphysical perspective of shadow.

>

Hypothetically, if the Shadow of the Dragon was imbued by Mordremoth to use shadow magic, the dragon was able to spawn those shadow minions to extinguish the divine fire from that battle. Perhaps Zhaitan used these same tactics to smother the divine fires of the god temples at Orr or perhaps pervert them. Balthazar’s Temple for example has the regular god statues with green and black energy, as well as the rest of the temple having blue green energy surrounding it. Once the priest is dead, it turns back to regular orange flames and no green energy around the statues.