Azure The Heartless.3261

> @"Devilman.1532" said:

> Cancer isn't a swear word. Also its a well known fact that Anet cares much more for the PVE aspect of this game and its gemstore. No need for thread after thread to beat that dead horse.

>

I got an infraction for it once, pavlov tells me otherwise~

And this is indeed correct, but it never hurts to shine a light on potential things we could do to balance the scales a bit. Even if it's veiled in grating sarcasm.

> @"Devilman.1532" said:

> This thread is [oops a swear word]

I agree that we should remove the thread that shows why GW2 seems to value the PVE community more from our glorious eyes.

> @"Devilman.1532" said:

> DEAL. It was never a ghost town before. There is no need for a solo que at all.

It was never a ghost down because solo players had to potentially face premades if they wanted to do ranked at all.

Oh, also, _it was totally a ghost town._

Let me regale you with a tale Once upon a time, ~~millions and millions of~~ 2 years ago:

> @"ToPNoP.2493" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > Wow I'm disappointed. I thought I was going to actually see someone defend toughness as being the meta in PVP but it's just a Firebrand complaint.

> "Another Firebrand complaint." So, there are more. Toughness is rampant and not fun. Being able to push f2 and f3 and survive a full barrage with stuns is terrible, why would anyone want to have unbeatable classes in pvp? If they are not on your team then you lose. I think one guy said L2P, but he just defensive of current settings. Warrior and thief seem to be on the bottom teir, and they are the most popular classes. No one should have toughness so great as to take hits from a glass cannon for 5 full minutes.

>

I like you.

> @"Devilman.1532" said:

> Hey who's fault is it if you don't have friends or you and your friends aren't good enough to compete at a high level? 5 man que should never have gone away in sPvP. They did because the little QQ no talent hacks cried enough and got it barely voted for since they want a safe space and don't like the "big mean premades" lol what a crock

> @"Devilman.1532" said:

> > @"Censored.5921" said:

> > > @"Deathok.2914" said:

> > > @"rank eleven monk.9502"

> > > I don't understand how people defend soloq in a team based game mode. lol

> > > I dont care if we have ATs or not. Ranked arena is a team based game mode period.

> > > If u want us to soloq give us a solo game mode or call ranked 'random arenas' like in gw1

> > > But selling ranked arena as solo game mode is a joke.

> >

> > I agree 100%, /thread.

> > Bring back team q as a new mode, Team Arena or Team Ranked. Something outside of ATs where a group can Q up.

>

> THIS x 1000

Cool, but there should also be a ranked solo q because solo players want leaderboards too, and we can ignore that team ranked will be a ghost town if that option is provided and solo queue players are not forced to go up against premades to keep them fed, until everyone else figures it out and gets angry at the long queue times, except for the handful of pvp guilds cohesive enough to play at high level.

Because this didn't happen in the past.

Deal? <3

Wow I'm disappointed. I thought I was going to actually see someone defend toughness as being the meta in PVP but it's just a Firebrand complaint.

_My hopes were up so high_

> @"Deathok.2914" said:

> Tbh I think if you would make another poll which asks if we would rather stick with soloq or get teamq back the majority for sure would vote teamq.

> Soloq is unplayable. Period.

...

Were you _not_ here for all of the "Legendary player carrying X"! "Team X Carrying Y"! "I cant get a match because X Team Farming us!" Pardon me if you were not, I just assumed because you said you wanted it -back-...

If you listen carefully there's people echoing that same sentiment for unranked, but unranked is just that so I don't really think premades matter much there.

Not saying you are part of this group, but look around the forums. Its interesting to see people in general flip flop between "I want solo q to be enforced!" and "I want team q back now!" when what they should be asking for is an answer to why they're constantly losing.

Never mind that they're ignoring ATs, which are specifically designed to cater to that...

> @"rank eleven monk.9502"

> I don't understand how people defend soloq in a team based game mode. lol

> I dont care if we have ATs or not. Ranked arena is a team based game mode period.

> If u want us to soloq give us a solo game mode or call ranked 'random arenas' like in gw1

> But selling ranked arena as solo game mode is a joke.

Oh! Speaking of jokes, I have one for you.

A legendary player, a legendary player, a legendary player, a legendary player, and a legendary player all walk into a Team Queue with discord versus a team of friends.

the punchline is they didn't know what build the thief was.

> @"cursE.1794" said:

> Step 1: Release an expansion and introduce new subclasses. Make sure the new subclasses are ridiculously overpowered compared to the old ones, but not by simply increasing some numbers. Make sure the new skills turn the entire combat system into a complete mess. Since the old classes can't compete anymore, everyone has to buy the addon, making it pay 2 win.

>

> Step 2: Repeat step 1

>

> Step 3: No further steps needed, the game is already dead.

>

> We're currently somewhere between 2 and 3.

Once there is an expansion, **the people that do not purchase the expansion no longer own the full game.** Pay2Win implies that people who spend exorbitant amounts of money have a greater chance to win. It doesn't apply to functionality not acquired by opting out of an expansion.

On top of that.

Core Warrior is still good.

Core Mesmer is still good.

Core Guard is still good.

Core Ranger is still good.

Core Thief is still good.

Core Ele is still good.

Core Engie still has some use.

I've seen one Core Necro. (lmao, I tried.)

All cash shop items can be acquired by using in game money. Lootbox keys drop in game and can be bought with in game money.

This is probably one of the only games I've played that actively avoids giving anyone with a fat wallet a tactical or mechanical advantage, the other being warframe.

> @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> I actually feel like even if I would try to help PvP-ers I would be openly attacked no matter what I say because I do not agree with you about PvE players being bad.

Hit the nail on the head there, lol.

> telling the players IN A MATURE way what you have done wrong as a team or as individuals. They are toxic and won't listen even when you explain calmly and kindly?

Lmao, people in PVP don't read. And if you suggest they should it only gets you bashed/blamed.

> Move on don't give in and start being a kitten yourself.

T o o l a t e.

PVPers may not like what he's saying, but he has a point. Haven't met more than 5 people on this game willing to explain how things work in pvp. They just expect you to automatically know, and then laugh at you when you dont. You usually just fail forward until you learn on your own, and i'm pretty sure a lot of people dont have the skin to do that for less loot than they make in pve.

> >"@zinkz.7045" said:

>> LOL, I'm not miserable, I am simply pointing out the hypocrisy of PvE players when they go on about elitism or toxic behavior in PvP without looking at their own gamemode or "community" and the flawed "logic" of things like the state of PvP being down to "toxicity", or the delusion that it or indeed this game as a whole will grow,

That sounds pretty miserable objectively. PVE doesn't have to look at their own game mode, we're the ones complaining that we're drowning in reddits because mounts are more important, right?

> @"Solidaris.5423" said:

> Maybe your game mode is dying not because ANET or the "dirty PvE peasants" but you guys... Firstly I play all three gamemodes before you start bashing me being a "PvE looser".

>

> Both PvP and WvW is full of toxic elitists ,sorry in your word veterans, who do not give chance for newcomers to grow and experience the mode. Nope... a player doing badly?

> "kitten SAJSHDJASBHDBWQHDQZWD GET OUT OF MAH GAMEMODE PVE NOOB!!! ASDASDSADSADSADSA"

>

> Don't try to deny it. This happens too often. Maybe clean out your own yard before criticising others. Maybe start being more acceptable and open with new players...

> Or just throw garbage on me and call me a PvE noob for not defending your gamemode and calling others name because they don't like a community full of "veterans"

I'm ~~PVP scum ~~ a pvper and I agree with this statement.

The PVP scene is incredibly unforgiving to people who know what they're doing, much less the people looking to try to pick it up. This is supposed to be a game that people play for fun, and the moment you take fun out of a game by having a playerbase that is consistently vile and impolite, you lose the right to ask why nobody wants to play it. Only people that thrive on player conflict or can overcome it regularly pvp/wvw. That is unsurprisingly a small fraction of the people that actually play, which is why generally we get the back seat for balancing.

...

Steal/Corrupt/Null it?

Apply weakness?

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > Anet doesn't seem interested in manipulating the "experience" of the players and are focused all on numbers and spreadsheets).

> >

> > Let's not do this ^

> > Yes, Mesmer still needs tweaking. That being said, they _did_ do a good job with the previous patch with bringing condi mes and scourge down a bit. I'd certainly wish they'd fix everything at once, but I'd rather they take small steps and find out where all the toxic people run when their generous class advantages dissipate, than try to fix everything at once and make it worse.

> >

> >

>

> I'm not talking about class balance though. I am talking about making a fun experience for players who want to PvP. Anet doesn't do this. They just individually "balance" classes (which the PvP team doesn't even do... they just "Request" changes and hope the Professions Team listens) ... then they throw them all into a jar and hope for the best.

right right, I modified previous post.

> @"Oozo.7856" said:

> LOL, somebody said Mesmer is a high risk class. :-D

As much as I hate mesmer (even though I play one ((poorly)) ) that person _is technically right_ .

To be able to delete health bars, Mesmers sacrifice all their toughness. Yes they blow you up but if you catch one they die. They're similar to thief in that respect.

> @"pah.4931" said:

> Anet doesn't seem interested in manipulating the "experience" of the players and are focused all on numbers and spreadsheets).

Let's not do this ^

Yes, Mesmer still needs tweaking. That being said, they _did_ do a good job with the previous patch with bringing condi mes and scourge down a bit. I'd certainly wish they'd fix everything at once, but I'd rather they take small steps and find out where all the toxic people run when their generous class advantages dissipate, than try to fix everything at once and make it worse.

Also I really want to say that player experience should be on the backburner because bad players will always have a bad time, but in this case you are correct. It should be very clear to you, if you are not running full glass, what you could have done to not lose/win a match, assuming you know what each class does and have a general knowledge of what people are running based on how they look/what weapons they carry.

But, yknow. Let the meta settle first.

Thank you for the context for balancing Druid. I'd appreciate if the subsequent patches don't kill the class, but bring it down just enough so people can't substitute large amounts of sustain for situational awareness.

Will give my opinions in the morning, just tagging thread~

It's either Mesmer or Specifically Druid, regardless of how angry their mains may get at this being pointed out. I think Druid beats Mesmer out though. glass oneshot builds are easier to account for than bunkering a point so effectively you need a 3v1 to push them off.

That being said, eh. It's better than it was last iteration, so I can deal.

> @"ZeteCommander.4937" said:

> Confusion is not a functional condition，not like blind or fear .it main function is to cause damage like Bleeding or Torment .

**???????**

It'll cause damage if people need to use skills to prevent dying from another source. It is very much a " functional condition. "

> @"Link.1049" said:

> > @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> > Y'all should start taking toughness. I know it's been a completely useless stat for a long time since 80% of your opponents completely ignored it, but now power is run again there is a stat which reduces it's effectiveness...

>

> Toughness does NOTHING for a thief... it's like giving us alacrity...useless.

A mesmer should not be getting the drop on you in pvp as a thief. You should be initiating all fights with any oneshot mesmers, or ready to shadowstep out the moment you get power locked.

For all other classes, Toughness amulets will help cover the initial dps.

It is still merciless, don't get me wrong. But I prefer this to confusion stacking that gets reapplied so fast you cannot clear it.

I've said this before, but I'd like those that worked on this patch to know that balancing efforts were very well made this iteration.

Let's be realistic here. We don't need to make Deadeye stronger than it is. It already does crazy damage from range.

Mechanic changes and QoL would be appreciated when implemented modestly, but you cant give ranged classes stupid dps. Especially when they can remove revealed.

Most people were expecting this balance patch to make everything worse, myself included. I will take a thoughtful attempt at balance that does not address a specific bunker build.

> @"Flauvious.6195" said:

> Druid was as dominant as scourge, holo, mirage and fb, if not more so, but it didn't get any nerfs.

It was not more so. We can deal with the bunker for now. At least it's not point denial by death.

This was a surprisingly good shot at addressing issues, personally. I am impressed by the paper values.

Let's see what happens on the field and hope this pattern continues if any other destructively overpowered builds rear their heads.

> @"Blackdagger.9670" said:

> It's been 5 years since I started this game and I can easily say, memser's been always the favourite OP class.

This is not related at all, but I remember a time within the past two years where all the Mesmer mains were howling that "Warrior is the favorite OP Class!" "Warrior is Anet's favored child!"

Now there's crickets. I wonder why. Where'd all the Mesmers go?

Keep in mind that some core specs still perform well in pve and pvp, with Renegade actually performing worse.

That being said, the definition of p2w is subjective, but it generally refers to a cash shop upgrade that offers a large advantage to players with money to burn.

You cant realistically apply that to cover game expansions, since technically people without the expansions do not own the full game.

That's like Free GW2 Players saying GW2 is pay to win because payers can chat and thus coordinate attacks better. On paper it's technically an argument, but it doesn't hold water because anyone without the full game is not playing on a level playing field to start with.

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Spartyr.6795" said:

> > I would love to see a video tutorial on this. I think it's one of the things new players find most difficult, and it's also one of the things veteran players take for granted as obvious, so it's never explained properly.

> >

> > An example of when it's best to cleave?

> > An example of when it's best to stomp?

> > An example of when it's best to rez?

> >

> > And the pros and cons of each, would probably be a popular tutorial video. It's really not intuitive, and as Fluffball stated it's one of the most important parts of PvP as it can turn around a fight quickly.

>

> Making a video would be a lot of work for the concept I think.

>

> Generally:

>

> **Stomp** if enemy health will not hit 0 before the time it takes for you to stomp (you have low damage/ are bunker and cannot cleave enemy to death quickly), you can mitigate knockbacks or interrupts, and a teammate is not in immediate danger of dying. This option becomes less viable the more squishy you are, and will require you to use safestomps.

>

> **Cleave** if enemy health is low, he has a knockback or interrupt pocketed, someone is trying to rez him, or (tentatively) a teammate is in immediate danger of dying, but will not die before the opponent if you cleave.**

>

> **Rez** if you have a teammate down in the open with no enemies around, your teammate has downed his opponent as well but his hp will hit 0 if you attempt to stomp or cleave his opponent , or opponent has 2+ down and is focusing downed teammate to attempt rally, and they both have health such that your teammate will die if you attack either one of them or attempt to stomp.

>

> And lastly, but rarely stated:

>

> **Attack Opponent** if your opponent has beaten your teammate and is preparing a stomp or is otherwise in a situation that guarantees your teammate is going to be stomped/killed (Namely, stab you cannot rip or pierce). In this case, accept your ally is going to die and focus on laying dps into the opponent as much as possible to weaken him for next fight. He may also cancel the stomp and flee, which opens the window for a partial or full rez.

>

> There are situations where these options will merge. For instance. If you happen across a 1v1 where your teammate and your opponent have both downed, and your opponent has an ally trying to rez him, you may either opt to **cleave the opponent to put damage into his ally and interrupt the rez process, or heal your ally in the hopes that he gets up before they do**. This depends on positioning and the profession of all parties involved, as some classes can do heavier/special damage in the downstate that makes revving them in lieu of cleaving particularly useful, or possess traits or equipment that make revivals faster or give special perks that may help you win the incoming 2v2 / prevent it from happening in the first place.

>

> @"Spartyr.6795" said:

> I would love to see a video tutorial on this. I think it's one of the things new players find most difficult, and it's also one of the things veteran players take for granted as obvious, so it's never explained properly.

>

> An example of when it's best to cleave?

> An example of when it's best to stomp?

> An example of when it's best to rez?

>

> And the pros and cons of each, would probably be a popular tutorial video. It's really not intuitive, and as Fluffball stated it's one of the most important parts of PvP as it can turn around a fight quickly.

Making a video would be a lot of work for the concept I think.

Generally:

**Stomp** if enemy health will not hit 0 before the time it takes for you to stomp (you have low damage/ are bunker and cannot cleave enemy to death quickly), you can mitigate knockbacks or interrupts, and a teammate is not in immediate danger of dying. This option becomes less viable the more squishy you are, and will require you to use safestomps.

**Cleave** if enemy health is low, he has a knockback or interrupt pocketed, someone is trying to rez him, or (tentatively) a teammate is in immediate danger of dying, but will not die before the opponent if you cleave.**

**Rez** if you have a teammate down in the open with no enemies around, your teammate has downed his opponent as well but his hp will hit 0 if you attempt to stomp or cleave his opponent , or opponent has 2+ down and is focusing downed teammate to attempt rally, and they both have health such that your teammate will die if you attack either one of them or attempt to stomp.

And lastly, but rarely stated:

**Attack Opponent** if your opponent has beaten your teammate and is preparing a stomp or is otherwise in a situation that guarantees your teammate is going to be stomped/killed (Namely, stab you cannot rip or pierce). In this case, accept your ally is going to die and focus on laying dps into the opponent as much as possible to weaken him for next fight.

There are situations where these options will merge. For instance. If you happen across a 1v1 where your teammate and your opponent have both downed, and your opponent has an ally trying to rez him, you may either opt to **cleave the opponent to put damage into his ally and interrupt the rez process, or heal your ally in the hopes that he gets up before they do**. This depends on positioning and the profession of all parties involved, as some classes can do heavier/special damage in the downstate that makes revving them in lieu of cleaving particularly useful, or possess traits or equipment that make revivals faster or give special perks that may help you win the incoming 2v2 / prevent it from happening in the first place.