Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > look at power rev, > > > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. > > Doesn't matter if you never said it had to be used or not. > > > > It does matter, because were comparing builds. Using a non-existent build as an example undermines your argument. > Not really. It reinforces it. You're not comparing builds you're comparing meta builds. You've used an absolute statement to say something then said it's doesn't count because it's not used / meta. You've tried to say conditions are universally bad but the majority of your points are directly linked to the meta builds / builds that are currently strong. My point being conditions , by and large, are fine. It's certain builds that are the issue. > > >With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. > > Good thing its the same for pulsing damage power fields. > > > > Would be, if they existed and were used, theoretically. They either dont, or are not. As such, it isnt. > They do exist and have frequently cycled in and out of being meta / viable. One current such , which you have acknowledged, is guardian symbols. Though it's interesting to see when the power symbols are killing people it's "symbol guardian build is OP" but when it's Condi symbols it's usually "burning is too strong". > > >You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. > > Because you cant avoid being hit by an attack that applies conditions, terrible I know. > > > > Thats the issue. Its not "An attack that appleis condition" you need to avoid. Its *every single attack they launch throughout the entire fight* that you need to avoid. Its not like power where you identify a small number of particularly hard-hitting attacks, like say deathstrike, that you then avoid and drastically reduce their damage with. Condi builds either dont have an analogue, or its instant. No for condi builds, thanks to a variety of on-X effects, *every* attack they launch is their version of deathstrike. And even if you have dodged 5 "deathstrikes", the next 5 will be just as lethal. You're calling out a specific power skills and comparing it to an entire damage type , generalising, when in fact, based on your posts, this point is about thief and guardian. Like power and in a general sense Condi builds do have hard hitting skills you need to avoid, just like power builds, that if you avoid you will drastically reduce damage taken. And if you don't you still have the option to potentially cleanse it. Though you don't need to avoid every attack or cleanse every condition the second you get hit with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > > look at power rev, > > > > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > > > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. > > > Doesn't matter if you never said it had to be used or not. > > > > > > > It does matter, because were comparing builds. Using a non-existent build as an example undermines your argument. > > > Not really. It reinforces it. You're not comparing builds you're comparing meta builds. You've used an absolute statement to say something then said it's doesn't count because it's not used / meta. You've tried to say conditions are universally bad but the majority of your points are directly linked to the meta builds / builds that are currently strong. My point being conditions , by and large, are fine. It's certain builds that are the issue. > It undermines it. "Its not used". Doesnt mean "its not used by meta builds". It means "Its not used by *any* builds". Not even off-meta build. > > > >With a pulsing condi field, you have 2 options. Forfeit the point, or burn through active defenses to survive. > > > Good thing its the same for pulsing damage power fields. > > > > > > > Would be, if they existed and were used, theoretically. They either dont, or are not. As such, it isnt. > > > They do exist and have frequently cycled in and out of being meta / viable. One current such , which you have acknowledged, is guardian symbols. Though it's interesting to see when the power symbols are killing people it's "symbol guardian build is OP" but when it's Condi symbols it's usually "burning is too strong". > There are only 3 relevant ones that ever existed. Guardian Symbols. Chrono Wells (kinda). Ranger Barrage. Thing is ,the former 2 are used by bunker builds and dont do nearly as much damage. They also arent big enough to cover a point. > > > >You cant however stop the damage. Which is typically the case for condition damage. With power, you can stop it before it hits you. With condition usually only *after* it already hit you. > > > Because you cant avoid being hit by an attack that applies conditions, terrible I know. > > > > > > > Thats the issue. Its not "An attack that appleis condition" you need to avoid. Its *every single attack they launch throughout the entire fight* that you need to avoid. Its not like power where you identify a small number of particularly hard-hitting attacks, like say deathstrike, that you then avoid and drastically reduce their damage with. Condi builds either dont have an analogue, or its instant. No for condi builds, thanks to a variety of on-X effects, *every* attack they launch is their version of deathstrike. And even if you have dodged 5 "deathstrikes", the next 5 will be just as lethal. > > You're calling out a specific power skills and comparing it to an entire damage type , generalising, when in fact, based on your posts, this point is about thief and guardian. > Nope. Condi Mirage, Condi Rev, even Condi Soulbeast, Condi Engineer and hell Condi Warrior all fall in the same category. You cant find *any* condi build for which it isnt true. And you cant find any power build for which it is. > Like power and in a general sense Condi builds do have hard hitting skills you need to avoid, just like power builds, that if you avoid you will drastically reduce damage taken. And if you don't you still have the option to potentially cleanse it. Though you don't need to avoid every attack or cleanse every condition the second you get hit with it. > They do not. Lets just go over the list. What can you avoid in the condi thieves arsenal? Well, nothing. Short of insta-interrupting Repeater, but even then you get tagged with deadly ambition. And they just spam repeater. Condi guardian? Its all instant. Condi Soulbeast? They dont have any one skill that needs to hit, they just hit you with dozens of skills each applying conditions over and over. So thats 0 for 3 so far. Condi Rev? Well, Temporal Rift, but not because it does damage (it doesnt), but because it CCs. The actual damage is unavoidable as well. Condi Engineer? Well its not really a thing anymore, but it was just on-X effects on multihitting grenade autos. Nothing to avoid here. Condi Warrior? Well you could stop skullgrinder I guess. No dice with the pulsing burn fields though. And thats 1 for 6. That is the problem. They dont have hard hitting skills you need to avoid. Because the way conditions work is that they make it so *every single skill they use* is a hard-hitting skill. And you cant avoid all of them. And yes, you can cleanse. You *have* to cleanse. Youre forced to always bring cleanse with you. Thats why its binary, and why it suffocates build options. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeqkOneStylez.8047 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Pati.2438" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @Kulvar.1238 Nah i don,t like them in any team .... they just like don't need mutch skill but could ezy carry teams hard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" I exactly don't want them to dead nerf conditions ..... all i want is that they bring them finaly in good balance. Conditions shouldn't work as burst damage .... they should work as damage over time and in its current state they made a higher burst damage than power builds while also doing damage over time. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why should you not die quickly if you fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills? Damage type should not matter on this regard. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Do some combos or skills need toning down? Probably. But every time I read "condi should not burst" it always sounds like "I don't want to be punished for not avoiding skills". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the thing with conditions, and condition burst is that you didnt "fail to avoid a strong skill or a group of strong skills". What you "failed to avoid" (which is a misnomer as we see in a bit) are instant cast skills, and on-X effects that, in order to prevent them, would require you to have 100% evade/block/invuln uptime. This isnt like power where the hardhitting skills are clearly telegraphed and easily avoidable. In case of condi, they arent telegraphed, and quite often arent even avoidable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stop generalising. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Try and find a single condi build that doesnt rely on instant cast skills, on-X effects or pulsing fields for its damage. Spoiler: Doesnt exist. Im not "generalising", because what Im saying applies to *every single condi build in existence*. > > > > > > > > > > > > You're listing half the ways of applying damage and saying find a build that doesn't do it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except not really? See thats the thing, power builds have a large variety of ways they deal damage. > > > > So do condition builds > > > > > > Not really. Its a small number of categories with a lot of overlap. > > > > > > > >Those 3 are barely used by power. > > > > > honestly I cant even think of a power build that uses pulsing damage fields. > > > > > > > > > This isn't true. There are many. Just like Condi ; builds that use them come in and out of the meta / being strong all the time. > > > > > > > > > > Such as? The only ones I could think of that even *have* a pulsing damage field are LB ranger and guardian. And the first one isnt that good for its damage, while the latter is used by a bunker build that poorly fits into the dichotomy anyway. > > > > > > > > > Power builds have on X effects through power specific damage modifiers, literally on damage do more damage. They also use a lot of pulsing fields in their builds. Both damage types have these. Instant effects are an issue but again when people were dying to core shatter mesmer there were specific threads around power lock and power spike, not threads on all power damage is OP. Steal is also notably one of the most loaded single skills in the game when you apply traits to it. JI doesn't even do that much damage on its own, you can get similar amount of damage from some instant power utilities. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > False equivalence. The damage modifiers are equivalent to the damage modifiers condi also have. However, were talking things like "burn on every third attack that hits. Poison enemies on your next 7 attacks". Things like that. The only equivalent to condi on-X traits is something like Vampiric Aura. But I assume I dont really have to explain why vampiric aura is not even remotely close in terms of power to any of the condi on-x effects. > > > > > > > > > Look at the number of straight damage modifiers conditions have compared to power. Then look at the amount of extra proc power has compared to conditions. They are fairly equivalent and a lot of the time it is just "applies more damage". Your next X attacks do Y more damage/apply Z condi exist or for the next A seconds you do B more damage/ apply C condi. Again not massively different and exist on varying quantities between damage types and are often **build specific**. > > > > > > > > > > The *number* of them doesnt matter. The point is that theyre not equivalent. Let me explain why. When you take a damage modifier, its damage is dependent on the attack. If you slap a 40% damage modifier on a 600 damage autoattack (and 40% is an absurd modifier), thats still only 240 damage. Slap 1 stack of poison for 3 seconds on it instead, and youre doing far more. Pretty big difference, isnt it? Thats the issue, after all. Power damage is dependent on how telegraphed the attack is. Condi is not. > > > > > > > > > If what you say is true and all condi builds have all these tools and rely on them they would all be equally over powered...but they aren't. Don't really see complaints about fire weaver or scourge anymore after they got nerfed. Where are my condi warrior and engi? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Equally overpowered, no. Its not even a matter of overpowered. Its a matter of bad design. All condi builds are badly designed, all rely on the same design mistakes, all are binary. Condi needs a rework from the ground up. > > > > > > > > > > > Your listing the problem issues of the problem builds and using that as a general statement against all condition damage. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All condi builds have the exact same design issues. The only difference is power, but power is irrelevant. Its the design thats a problem. > > > > > > > > "I don't like it" doesn't mean that something is badly designed. > > > > > > > > > > Correct. "Its incredibly binary, leads to unengaging gameplay and has a severe chokehold on build diversity as a whole" however *does* mean its badly designed. And oh look, Condi fulfills all of those criteria. > > > > I don't think it's worth continuing this. I'm going to agree to disagree with you. > > Do as you wish. Conditions ultimately need a rework. Something as simple as making cleanses only cleanse non-damaging conditions, and then rebalancing them around that, with lower damage, and an actual ratio of telegraph -> damage like power has. Unfortunately Anet has to design builds that still have the training wheels on it so that when pve'ers spill in to farm an amulet, they can still contribute to the game by polluting the air and littering the ground with skittles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > > > look at power rev, > > > > > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > > > > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. > > > > Doesn't matter if you never said it had to be used or not. > > > > > > > > > > It does matter, because were comparing builds. Using a non-existent build as an example undermines your argument. > > > > > Not really. It reinforces it. You're not comparing builds you're comparing meta builds. You've used an absolute statement to say something then said it's doesn't count because it's not used / meta. You've tried to say conditions are universally bad but the majority of your points are directly linked to the meta builds / builds that are currently strong. My point being conditions , by and large, are fine. It's certain builds that are the issue. > > > > It undermines it. "Its not used". Doesnt mean "its not used by meta builds". It means "Its not used by *any* builds". Not even off-meta build. > It really doesn't. Literally feeds directly into the point. Things are a problem when they are considered meta / strong. When this is the case for power builds its specific but for condi builds its somehow general, when it isn't. If it proved your point, and undermined mine, you would be pulling more examples of condi being a general problem besides the very specific examples ,clearly pointed at certain meta builds ,being general. > > Like power and in a general sense Condi builds do have hard hitting skills you need to avoid, just like power builds, that if you avoid you will drastically reduce damage taken. And if you don't you still have the option to potentially cleanse it. Though you don't need to avoid every attack or cleanse every condition the second you get hit with it. > > > > They do not. Lets just go over the list. > That is the problem. They dont have hard hitting skills you need to avoid. Because the way conditions work is that they make it so *every single skill they use* is a hard-hitting skill. And you cant avoid all of them. And yes, you can cleanse. You *have* to cleanse. Youre forced to always bring cleanse with you. Thats why its binary, and why it suffocates build options. I can't help you if you don't recognise the skills you need to avoid. Also questioning how you quantify hard hittinf. You're also not "forced" to bring cleanse any more than you are "forced" to bring power damage mitigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLS.4095 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 The problem is here : You can play condi burst with big sustain, u can't play power burst with big sustain. The only exeption is actually ranger, we all know the reason = pet. The big example is Thief : 20 k hp with one shot condi burst. 11K hp with 5k power burst. The condi weakness is also a big a problem, completely destroying power damage but not condi. You can't do actually 5K/second power damage, condi can ez. Power damage is balance, condi is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > Why is it always conditions instead of the build that is over performing with the damage type... > > > > > > people dont like condis, so they will take any opportunity to strike at them, immagine. Power rev is too strong, lets nerf ALL power builds reEEeEEEEE > > > > I mean, they did just do that, yknow. All power builds *were* nerfed. > > so? all condi builds were nerfed too Not remotely as much. That does not mean I agree with the OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pninak.1069 Posted May 11, 2020 Share Posted May 11, 2020 the problem here is that players can't let go off glassy equipment. I don't really think ferocity is of big use in pvp for example. just switch it to another stat and you might last longer if you got a small number of condi cleanses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arheundel.6451 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 "Paper is fine...rock is broken OP.....by scissor" That's how you can summarize the vast majority of threads on this forum, the guy who started this thread is a **warrior** and the ones advocating in favor of it ...are **thieves**, both have strong counters against direct dmg applications, so strong that unless perfectly applied, that direct dmg can be "ignored". Warriors could very easily tank their way through any direct dmg application if so they'd want and likewise thieves can simply **shadow steap out/infiltrator return** at a whim then come back fully refreshed like nothing happened. Basically anyone using a spec with strong countermeasure against direct damage will always ask for nerfs on the very thing that makes their presence that much less unbearable for the rest of the game : condition damage. I would never play a GW2 without strong condition application of some sort **at this point** , it would become basically impossible to deal with tanks and thieves generally.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"PLS.4095" said: > The problem is here : > You can play condi burst with big sustain, u can't play power burst with big sustain. > The only exeption is actually ranger, we all know the reason = pet. > > The big example is Thief : > 20 k hp with one shot condi burst. > 11K hp with 5k power burst. > > The condi weakness is also a big a problem, completely destroying power damage but not condi. > > You can't do actually 5K/second power damage, condi can ez. > > Power damage is balance, condi is not. > > > > > 5k/s is "ez"? Against who? AFK players? Just stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said: > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > > > > > > > @"UNOwen.7132" > > > > > > > > > look at power rev, > > > > > > > > > pulsing? dragon aoe pulsing, sword evade thingy keeps kitting as well as other multi hit skills. > > > > > > > > > insta casts? Phase Traversal, also gives quickness + unblockable to reduce counterplay, same thing with song of the mists, but the damage was removed. > > > > > > > > > venom like attack that adds to another? enchanted daggers > > > > > > > > > sustained damage? ~15s cooldown on hard hitting skills, with insta teleport to make sure you stick ensures good sustained damage > > > > > > > > > burst damage? its there. > > > > > > > > > it ticks all the things off your list, now go to holo, has almost everything too, pulsing damage, tankyness mobility, aoe, burst and sustained damage everything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Holo has no instant cast abilities. Holo has no pulsing damage fields (or even multi-hit attacks). > > > > > > > Laser disk, Blade Burst and Particle Accelerator. The multi hits have been listed, which you acknowledged, even though you said it doesn't have any. It does. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of these only Laser Disc is a pulsing field. Its not used, however. > > > > > Doesn't matter if you never said it had to be used or not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It does matter, because were comparing builds. Using a non-existent build as an example undermines your argument. > > > > > > > Not really. It reinforces it. You're not comparing builds you're comparing meta builds. You've used an absolute statement to say something then said it's doesn't count because it's not used / meta. You've tried to say conditions are universally bad but the majority of your points are directly linked to the meta builds / builds that are currently strong. My point being conditions , by and large, are fine. It's certain builds that are the issue. > > > > > > > It undermines it. "Its not used". Doesnt mean "its not used by meta builds". It means "Its not used by *any* builds". Not even off-meta build. > > > It really doesn't. Literally feeds directly into the point. Things are a problem when they are considered meta / strong. When this is the case for power builds its specific but for condi builds its somehow general, when it isn't. If it proved your point, and undermined mine, you would be pulling more examples of condi being a general problem besides the very specific examples ,clearly pointed at certain meta builds ,being general. > Let me reiterate. With power this is theoretically possible, but practically not required. With condi builds, its required. There is _**NO**_ condi build that doesnt fall under those 3 categories. I have given you every single condi build, including those that arent really good, as examples. Because all of them are. Each suffer from this design problem. It is general for condi builds. > > > Like power and in a general sense Condi builds do have hard hitting skills you need to avoid, just like power builds, that if you avoid you will drastically reduce damage taken. And if you don't you still have the option to potentially cleanse it. Though you don't need to avoid every attack or cleanse every condition the second you get hit with it. > > > > > > > They do not. Lets just go over the list. > > That is the problem. They dont have hard hitting skills you need to avoid. Because the way conditions work is that they make it so *every single skill they use* is a hard-hitting skill. And you cant avoid all of them. And yes, you can cleanse. You *have* to cleanse. Youre forced to always bring cleanse with you. Thats why its binary, and why it suffocates build options. > I can't help you if you don't recognise the skills you need to avoid. Also questioning how you quantify hard hittinf. You're also not "forced" to bring cleanse any more than you are "forced" to bring power damage mitigation. > > Oh I would recognise them if they exist. They dont. But please, go ahead, tell me what those "skills you need to avoid" in condi rev, condi burn guard, condi thief, condi mirage, condi necro, condi warrior and condi engineer are. Im all ears if you can find any. You wont, I know 2/3 of those builds well enough to know no such skill exists, and the other 2 I could only find one, but youre welcome to try. Also no, you absolutely *are* forced to bring cleanse, and you absolutely are *not* forced to bring power damage mitigation. Try playing any build without condi cleanse, and you will instantly die to every single condi build you face. Try bringing a build without protection or other power damage mitigation and .... youre just playing a normal meta build that isnt Prot Holo. Big difference, isnt it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > "Paper is fine...rock is broken OP.....by scissor" > As always, Arheundel finds a way to misrepresent the whole thing in his favour. Its almost impressive how good you are at being dishonest. > That's how you can summarize the vast majority of threads on this forum, the guy who started this thread is a **warrior** and the ones advocating in favor of it ...are **thieves**, both have strong counters against direct dmg applications, so strong that unless perfectly applied, that direct dmg can be "ignored". > Yeah thief has such strong counters against direct damage applications like ... a couple of blinds? Thats supposed to make it so "direct damage can be ignored"? Have you *ever* played thief or for that matter *seen* a thief? Because its getting quite clear that you havent. For that matter, Warrior has an easier time vs condis than power. A fair few cleanses and strong resistance uptime. Makes it easy to deal with. > Warriors could very easily tank their way through any direct dmg application if so they'd want and likewise thieves can simply **shadow steap out/infiltrator return** at a whim then come back fully refreshed like nothing happened. > The only skill that wouldnt block condi application during the same period is Endure Pain. Warrior currently doesnt run it. Shadowstep is too long and valuable of a cooldown to waste it like that, something you would know if you played thief for a single game, and Infiltrators return is easily stopped. Weve been over this. > Basically anyone using a spec with strong countermeasure against direct damage will always ask for nerfs on the very thing that makes their presence that much less unbearable for the rest of the game : condition damage. > Yeah those poor Warriors who cant deal with conditions. I mean they only have a cleanse on weaponswap, 2 burst cleanses as utility, one as their heal skill, and 2 potential easy sources of Resistance which completely nullifies conditions for its full duration. Yeah those poor warriors that are currently geared to beat condi at the cost of making their power matchup worse totally need condi to be nerfed. I have to wonder at this point if youre a troll, or just legitimately this clueless. > I would never play a GW2 without strong condition application of some sort **at this point** , it would become basically impossible to deal with tanks and thieves generally.... If you cant deal with thieves without conditions, then you suck. Then again Im not sure you know what thief is or how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeepinItReal.9086 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Pati.2438" said: > Sooo after you destroy Power Builds nearly completly (sure some are there like power rev or thief) you finaly need to do something against condition Builds aswell. Sure you nerf condition runes but you hard nerf Power runes aswell. Sure you reduce the condition duration (what means no nerf to conditions cause of simply you actually could Burst them so duration means nothing. (best thing you ......... could do a 5k tick with one condition (maybe fire) in less than 3 seconds with low cd on the skill that do so many stacks, while you left power builds like Warrior with 5-8k max dps while been complete glassy). So all in all now is the situation that you need to play complete glassy to deal any dps with power Builds while condition Builds are playing on defence and doing same amount of burst damage as power Builds. > > P.S. Pls reduce the stacks of conditions per attack or just simply reduce its damage per time! You are 100% right, and whoever says differently has litraelly no idea how PVP should work / what balance means. The whole idea of conditions, passive braindead damage, that requires 0 skill or thought to use, is just rediculous. You want talent? nerf hard the conditions. The effort you make using this garbage mechanic compared to smart use of power builds is just not right. People like the easy way so they say condi is not overpowered, that is obviously not the reality. In conclusion - get talent guys and stop praising the conditions. I'd rather die from power builds than a guy who uses conditions, it just shows how lack of talent is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"pninak.1069" said: > the problem here is that players can't let go off glassy equipment. I don't really think ferocity is of big use in pvp for example. just switch it to another stat and you might last longer if you got a small number of condi cleanses. Ferocity is the biggest damage multiplier you can get your hands on as a power build. You absolutely do need it. For that matter there is no real alternative for power/precision/x amulets. Its not that "players cant let go of classy equipment" its "unlike condi builds, if power builds dont go glassy amulet, they dont do damage". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"pninak.1069" said: > > the problem here is that players can't let go off glassy equipment. I don't really think ferocity is of big use in pvp for example. just switch it to another stat and you might last longer if you got a small number of condi cleanses. > > Ferocity is the biggest damage multiplier you can get your hands on as a power build. You absolutely do need it. For that matter there is no real alternative for power/precision/x amulets. Its not that "players cant let go of classy equipment" its "unlike condi builds, if power builds dont go glassy amulet, they dont do damage". well, we had glassy condi amulets that people used and they removed it, people were happy running condi/precision/expertise/vitality but its gone, so now they take carrion with 900 vitality instead, I still mostly run wizard, its as tanky as demolisher/marauder amulets. and ferocity is only good if you get high crit chance, and with wekaness changing crits into noncrits its actually the worst stat, the hardest to make use off. best is power above all other, then precision, and dead last ferocity. edit 1 when you look logically at it, old amulets gave condi builds SUSTAINED damage, due to LOWER condi damage and expertise. carrion gives MORE condi damage, no expertise and 900 power, so more burst due to extra power and conditions deal damage quicker due to no expertise and no condi damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > @"pninak.1069" said: > > > the problem here is that players can't let go off glassy equipment. I don't really think ferocity is of big use in pvp for example. just switch it to another stat and you might last longer if you got a small number of condi cleanses. > > > > Ferocity is the biggest damage multiplier you can get your hands on as a power build. You absolutely do need it. For that matter there is no real alternative for power/precision/x amulets. Its not that "players cant let go of classy equipment" its "unlike condi builds, if power builds dont go glassy amulet, they dont do damage". > > well, we had glassy condi amulets that people used and they removed it, people were happy running condi/precision/expertise/vitality but its gone, so now they take carrion with 900 vitality instead, I still mostly run wizard, its as tanky as demolisher/marauder amulets. Well, we were talking power, not condi. Though in case of condi, tanky condi amulets were always picked more. For that matter, wasnt only Viper removed? > and ferocity is only good if you get high crit chance, and with wekaness changing crits into noncrits its actually the worst stat, the hardest to make use off. If youre playing power, youre getting high crit chance. Weakness is not even remotely present enough to make it bad. > best is power above all other, then precision, and dead last ferocity. > Ferocity is a multiplier that works off of the other multipliers. Of course you want to max out on the other 2 first. But Ferocity is still the best multiplier you can get. > edit 1 > when you look logically at it, old amulets gave condi builds SUSTAINED damage, due to LOWER condi damage and expertise. > carrion gives MORE condi damage, no expertise and 900 power, so more burst due to extra power and conditions deal damage quicker due to no expertise and no condi damage. The only removed condi amulet is viper, and that one only had 150 less condition damage, but 150 more power. The burst was about the same, sustained damage was better, tankiness was worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" nah, most people ran deadshot +1050 Precision.png Precision +560 Vitality.png Vitality +1050 Condition Damage.png Condition Damage +560 Condition Duration.png Expertise and weakness is abundant, every thief applies weakness, LR ele alone puts perma weakness on you, most classes put weakness in one way or another. and then you gample, do I crit for 8k or glance for 1,5k ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigmoid.7082 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said: > > > > @"pninak.1069" said: > > > > the problem here is that players can't let go off glassy equipment. I don't really think ferocity is of big use in pvp for example. just switch it to another stat and you might last longer if you got a small number of condi cleanses. > > > > > > Ferocity is the biggest damage multiplier you can get your hands on as a power build. You absolutely do need it. For that matter there is no real alternative for power/precision/x amulets. Its not that "players cant let go of classy equipment" its "unlike condi builds, if power builds dont go glassy amulet, they dont do damage". > > > > well, we had glassy condi amulets that people used and they removed it, people were happy running condi/precision/expertise/vitality but its gone, so now they take carrion with 900 vitality instead, I still mostly run wizard, its as tanky as demolisher/marauder amulets. > > For that matter, wasnt only Viper removed? .... > The only removed condi amulet is viper, and that one only had 150 less condition damage, but 150 more power. The burst was about the same, sustained damage was better, tankiness was worse. The following amulets have been removed from the PvP Build panel: * Deadshot Amulet(perc++, **condi++**, vitality+, expertise+) * Viper Amulet (power++, **condi++**, perc+, expertise+) * Wanderer Amulet (perc++, **condi++**, toughtness+, expertise+) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" nah, most people ran deadshot > +1050 Precision.png Precision > +560 Vitality.png Vitality > +1050 Condition Damage.png Condition Damage > +560 Condition Duration.png Expertise > and weakness is abundant, every thief applies weakness, LR ele alone puts perma weakness on you, most classes put weakness in one way or another. > and then you gample, do I crit for 8k or glance for 1,5k ? Oh yeah. I missed the Deadshot amulet somehow. Though most of the builds that ran it also used on-crit effects, so it had some influence on burst too, especially with scourge. Still, fair enough. It exists, but its far from abundant. Thieves apply it, but not that often, and when youre ganked by a thief, you have bigger things to worry about than weakness. LR is not that common. Most classes dont use weakness. Engineer doesnt use it currently (and only has it on elixir gun), Power Rev has it on the third pulse of elemental blast (which means it rarely ever gets applied), Warrior and Necro dont use it, Ranger doesnt use it, Mesmer only has it on chaos storm and armor, guardian doesnt use it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 @"UNOwen.7132" condi rev has it, mes has it on mirrors, rng on chaos armor and power block. LR applies perma weakness any thief applies weakness FB has weakness from the mantra and thome power rev also has it on staff 2 necro has it from boon corrupt holo applies weakness with combo fields with mortars + leaps/blasts, leap for example applies 8s! of weakness, im fairly sure holo can leap twice through posion field for 16s, or even do a blast for even more. Just look at what is played. thief = weakness cmes = weakness due to mirrors pmes = weakness due to mirrors and potentially power block condirev no idea how they apply weakness but they do power rev with staff and elemental blast holo has weakness from poison field leap/blasts necro from corrupting might ( this is what you actually want to corrupt in the first place, or stab ) so you should aim at might/stab anyways ranger -> no idea tbh, dont think they have weakness or if they do its not meta played ele -> LR is perma, condi is 0 I think. fb has mantra and book, core/dh doesnt have it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"UNOwen.7132" > condi rev has it, Echoing Eruption, yes. Their only source. So its 1 skill on 1 weaponset. > mes has it on mirrors, rng on chaos armor and power block. Power Block is not really being used. Mirage Mirror is rare, far as I know. Also really long cooldown. > LR applies perma weakness Not really being used. > any thief applies weakness Not very often. > FB has weakness from the mantra and thome Right, I missed the mantra. The tome skill is not used much. > power rev also has it on staff 2 Staff isnt used much. > necro has it from boon corrupt Right. > holo applies weakness with combo fields with mortars + leaps/blasts, leap for example applies 8s! of weakness, im fairly sure holo can leap twice through posion field for 16s, or even do a blast for even more. > Not something they do very often. But its an option. > Just look at what is played. > thief = weakness Not much of it. And usually not relevant in that situation. > cmes = weakness due to mirrors Not a common pick, and very few seem to use mirrors in the first place. > pmes = weakness due to mirrors and potentially power block Power Mes is usually core from what I see. > condirev no idea how they apply weakness but they do Echoing Eruption. Once every 12 seconds at most. Its one of the few skills worth dodging against them though, so you might dodge it. > power rev with staff and elemental blast Power Revs largely dropped Staff, and Elemental Blast does it on the last pulse, so it never actually gets to apply the weakness. > holo has weakness from poison field leap/blasts Which they dont really use. > necro from corrupting might ( this is what you actually want to corrupt in the first place, or stab ) so you should aim at might/stab anyways Actually you want to corrupt stuff that turns into damaging conditions most of all. Because that tends to explode enemies. > ranger -> no idea tbh, dont think they have weakness or if they do its not meta played They dont. > ele -> LR is perma, condi is 0 I think. After the latest patch LR is dropped. Ele doesnt have weakness anymore. > fb has mantra and book, core/dh doesnt have it Mantra yes, the bookskill isnt used. Now lets take a look at the top builds. Power Rev doesnt use weakness on the meta loadout. Core D/P Thief technically does, but practically it doesnt matter because its only used in +1 situations where youre not going to be fighting back much. Core Condi Thief only has 1 source on a long cooldown. Condi Necro has it on the thing they use to burst you with condis, where you need burst cleanses anyway. FB does have it on the mantra. Holo technically has it, but doesnt use it. Most of the game, most of the time, you wont have weakness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saerni.2584 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 I’d just like to point out that despite all the complaints about condi being instant, the majority of the much complained about burst from the core P/D thief is actually: Venoms that enhance Repeater which has a 1.25 second channel time. Venom is instant cast and I’ll grant you the Steal (still not a significant source of tick damage) but to actually apply the venom charges you are probably using either Repeater or in some cases Sneak Attack (1 second channel). I can’t speak to other condi builds. But I suspect this “only instant cast, so braindead and unskilled” talk is exaggerated. The biggest damage skills often do have tells. And power builds also use things like Judge’s Intervention to teleport in and do damage quickly. The issue is, ironically, that condi often involves chaining a lot of smaller skills together that individually don’t tick for that much damage. So individually they don’t have huge tells or windup. This makes sense. Big hitting power skills, like Maul et seq., do have bigger tells because they hit large numbers instantly. If a single skill applies 2k burning per tick for 3 seconds it won’t get the same tell as a skill that hits for 6k. Because I can cleanse and only get hit for 2k, or I can eat the hit but have a full three seconds to decide how to proceed. Let’s take the power thief comparison. Thief teleports in and CnD into Backstab. One hits for 3k the other for 5k. Now the auto chain for another 4 or 5k. Right in the span of 2 seconds or less we have a power burst of 10-12k. This isn’t more skilled than Steal + Shadowstrike + Repeater. And the damage will be more assuming the condi thief didn’t also pair that with venom. The constant insistence that condi (anything) is easier or no skill is unfounded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonidrex.5649 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 @"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLS.4095 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"PLS.4095" said: > > The problem is here : > > You can play condi burst with big sustain, u can't play power burst with big sustain. > > The only exeption is actually ranger, we all know the reason = pet. > > > > The big example is Thief : > > 20 k hp with one shot condi burst. > > 11K hp with 5k power burst. > > > > The condi weakness is also a big a problem, completely destroying power damage but not condi. > > > > You can't do actually 5K/second power damage, condi can ez. > > > > Power damage is balance, condi is not. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5k/s is "ez"? Against who? AFK players? Just stop. So why you can"t 5k/s on afk players with power damage ? And 5k/s is ez to have ( hello guard burn / condi rev / condi thief etc … ). Ho, and on afk payer you can have ez 10K/s condi damage. Stop be blind, condi need a hugggge nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"saerni.2584" said: > I’d just like to point out that despite all the complaints about condi being instant, the majority of the much complained about burst from the core P/D thief is actually: > Its instant, or on-X effects. Both of which you cant realistically avoid. > Venoms that enhance Repeater which has a 1.25 second channel time. Venom is instant cast and I’ll grant you the Steal (still not a significant source of tick damage) but to actually apply the venom charges you are probably using either Repeater or in some cases Sneak Attack (1 second channel). > Thats the thing. You dont need to be hit by the full repeater. You just need to be hit by any single one of the bullets. And youre not going to be able to avoid 100% of repeater shots. > I can’t speak to other condi builds. But I suspect this “only instant cast, so braindead and unskilled” talk is exaggerated. The biggest damage skills often do have tells. And power builds also use things like Judge’s Intervention to teleport in and do damage quickly. > Its the same as condi thief. Instant cast and on-X effects, both of which you cant realistically avoid. They dont have big damage skills with tells actually. > The issue is, ironically, that condi often involves chaining a lot of smaller skills together that individually don’t tick for that much damage. So individually they don’t have huge tells or windup. This makes sense. > Thats not the issue, the issue is the fact that most of their damage doesnt come from specific skills, but from effects that apply on any attack. Meaning you dont have to dodge the big axe, but literally anything the opponent does. > Big hitting power skills, like Maul et seq., do have bigger tells because they hit large numbers instantly. If a single skill applies 2k burning per tick for 3 seconds it won’t get the same tell as a skill that hits for 6k. Because I can cleanse and only get hit for 2k, or I can eat the hit but have a full three seconds to decide how to proceed. > Burning skills generally lack telegraphs anyway. > Let’s take the power thief comparison. Thief teleports in and CnD into Backstab. One hits for 3k the other for 5k. Now the auto chain for another 4 or 5k. Right in the span of 2 seconds or less we have a power burst of 10-12k. This isn’t more skilled than Steal + Shadowstrike + Repeater. And the damage will be more assuming the condi thief didn’t also pair that with venom. > Ignoring that D/D thief is trash and D/P thief would just backstab from stealth (which is its own problem), thats not true for most power builds. > The constant insistence that condi (anything) is easier or no skill is unfounded. > Whether its easier or not doesnt matter, its much harder to stop without cleanses to the point where you *need* cleanses to be able to play vs condi. You dont need protection vs power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNOwen.7132 Posted May 12, 2020 Share Posted May 12, 2020 > @"Leonidrex.5649" said: > @"saerni.2584" the problem with cthief is that they apply 10k+ damage instantly from stealth, with no tell. the moment you can defend yourself they will barrage you with more power/bleed/poison or just cover the big poison. I do have to admit I find your ability to swap between 2 contradicting positions ("condi is fine even though it does ridiculous damage instantly with no tell, but not if thief is using it because its thief") without even so much as stumbling rather impressive, but please do stick to one of them. Either condi is a problem, or it, including condi thief, is not. All condi builds operate the same way, after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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