Feedback: Eesh. Requiring metagaming mastery unlocks sucks all the joy out of it.

[Rainshine.5493]

Came back after a long time and bought the expansions.

 

I did 100% map completion on the base game because the game is beautiful and I enjoyed it, not because it gave me anything significant. The moment I realized I had -- HAD -- to train certain things the game didn't warn me about to progress the story made exploration immediately feel like a grind instead of fun. I don't want to spend 80% of my gaming time on the wiki and 20% on actually playing.

 

I'm just on the Maguma expansion. Hopefully it gets better after, but it makes me _fully resent_ an activity I used to fully enjoy.

 

Sure, part of it is that I have a terrible sense of direction and have trouble navigating in 2D, let alone 3D. But there's that added layer now of me going "Well, can I not get there because I'm tragic at navigation, or can I not get there because I haven't unlocked something I don't know I need to unlock yet?"

 

Woof.

 

Loved exploring the OG maps and jumping puzzles. HoM feels like a humongous chore. (Yes, yes, late to the party and this has probably been said before, but if I keep playing -- please, for the love of all that is holy, don't continue this path. I'm still not going to buy XP boosters to progress faster in the grind. Cosmetics, yes, sign me up, but not that, so instead of getting some money from me for things I enjoy, it'll be no money for things I don't because I just left the game instead of being forced into activities to enjoy the story.)

 

 

[CashCow.9548]

You must be new to MMOs.

[Khisanth.2948]

> @"Rainshine.5493" said:

> Came back after a long time and bought the expansions.

>

> I did 100% map completion on the base game because the game is beautiful and I enjoyed it, not because it gave me anything significant. The moment I realized I had -- HAD -- to train certain things the game didn't warn me about to progress the story made exploration immediately feel like a grind instead of fun. I don't want to spend 80% of my gaming time on the wiki and 20% on actually playing.

 

but it does tell you for those instances where it's a hard requirement such as the popups telling you need a particular mastery when running through the mushrooms

 

> I'm just on the Maguma expansion. Hopefully it gets better after, but it makes me _fully resent_ an activity I used to fully enjoy.

>

> Sure, part of it is that I have a terrible sense of direction and have trouble navigating in 2D, let alone 3D. But there's that added layer now of me going "Well, can I not get there because I'm tragic at navigation, or can I not get there because I haven't unlocked something I don't know I need to unlock yet?"

 

Can't say I remember running into that much. Reading over the ingame mastery descriptions in the mastery window covers most things and some are self evident such as running out of endurance while gliding probably means you need the mastery that increases the bar or the one that makes it infinite.

 

This is made even simpler by the fact that the majority of masteries are pure rubbish.

 

[Trise.2865]

It's called "game design". It's a thing games used to have before microtransactions.

[Randulf.7614]

PoF is less gated with masteries. The gates are there, but less choresome and problematic. The map design is flatter as well and more like core maps

 

HoT is mixed for a lot of people, some hated it and many are like me in thinking they did a cracking job innovating the map design and have no issues with the mastery gates. I hope they take some of the HoT designs on board for expac 3 because despite the shortness of the expac, it had some very good designs to it

 

What people often forget is that HoT is based on feedback from players in a huge post-LS1 feedback thread where a popular opinion was for a "metroidvania" style design to the gameplay and exploration. HoT utilised that player feedback

[Blocki.4931]

HoT has a bit of mastery gating, but that is because you're supposed to actually play the maps and do metas as you go. Doesn't take long at all.

[Algreg.3629]

as far as I remember, I never had to grind out any masteries, the necessary ones seemed pretty much aligned with character progress.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

You could always skip HoT and go directly to Path of Fire, if it's just map exploration you enjoy.

Of course, you will need Mount Masteries to fully complete some of the maps.

[Rainshine.5493]

> @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > @"Rainshine.5493" said:

> > Came back after a long time and bought the expansions.

> >

> > I did 100% map completion on the base game because the game is beautiful and I enjoyed it, not because it gave me anything significant. The moment I realized I had -- HAD -- to train certain things the game didn't warn me about to progress the story made exploration immediately feel like a grind instead of fun. I don't want to spend 80% of my gaming time on the wiki and 20% on actually playing.

>

> but it does tell you for those instances where it's a hard requirement such as the popups telling you need a particular mastery when running through the mushrooms

 

>

 

You misunderstand. I know when I click on a mushroom it tells me etc. But that Hero Challenge over there, can I get to it without Updraft? Did I just spend 45 minutes trying to get there and it's physically impossible right now? That's the frustrating part.

 

Not the grind @ the "you must be new" person. The lack of feedback in that particular area.

 

And again, I love exploration, thus my 100% completion of the base game. Sometimes I'd just like to bang out a few story episodes as I actually am in the mood for them.

[Atomos.7593]

You may want to get a few of the HoT mastery points from the living world season 3 maps first. Some of them are very easy to get.

[Astyrah.4015]

> @"Rainshine.5493" said:

> I did 100% map completion on the base game because the game is beautiful and I enjoyed it, not because it gave me anything significant. The moment I realized I had -- HAD -- to train certain things the game didn't warn me about to progress the story made exploration immediately feel like a grind instead of fun. I don't want to spend 80% of my gaming time on the wiki and 20% on actually playing.

>

> I'm just on the Maguma expansion. Hopefully it gets better after, but it makes me _fully resent_ an activity I used to fully enjoy.

 

> @"Rainshine.5493" said:

> Did I just spend 45 minutes trying to get there and it's physically impossible right now? That's the frustrating part.

>

> Not the grind @ the "you must be new" person. The lack of feedback in that particular area.

>

> And again, I love exploration, thus my 100% completion of the base game. Sometimes I'd just like to bang out a few story episodes as I actually am in the mood for them.

 

you might be really against this idea but, if you try to look out for one of the better HoT Hero Point Trains (basically a raid party with the intention of grabbing all hero points in HoT zones until the 2nd to the last zone) in the LFG menu, some commanders who run it will also help everyone get most of the mastery points and vistas that you normally wouldn't be able to without the other masteries -- these parties usually just require basic gliding.

 

again you might not like it since you seem to be the solo-exploration type but it's an option for you if you want a huge chunk of the map completion per HoT zone cleared.

[Hesione.9412]

> @"Rainshine.5493" said:

> > @"Khisanth.2948" said:

> > > @"Rainshine.5493" said:

> > > Came back after a long time and bought the expansions.

> > >

> > > I did 100% map completion on the base game because the game is beautiful and I enjoyed it, not because it gave me anything significant. The moment I realized I had -- HAD -- to train certain things the game didn't warn me about to progress the story made exploration immediately feel like a grind instead of fun. I don't want to spend 80% of my gaming time on the wiki and 20% on actually playing.

> >

> > but it does tell you for those instances where it's a hard requirement such as the popups telling you need a particular mastery when running through the mushrooms

>

> >

>

> You misunderstand. I know when I click on a mushroom it tells me etc. But that Hero Challenge over there, can I get to it without Updraft? Did I just spend 45 minutes trying to get there and it's physically impossible right now? That's the frustrating part.

 

There are frequent hero point trains run in HoT maps (apart from Dragonstand, for understandable reasons). The ones I see advertised say that only gliding is required. No poison mastery means at least one HP is out of the question, unless you have it, but you can get all VB hero points without it, and I think AB as well.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Atomos.7593" said:

> You may want to get a few of the HoT mastery points from the living world season 3 maps first. Some of them are very easy to get.

 

Didn't the OP say he just came back ad bought the Xpac? In that case, he probably would not have the free unlocks for those Living Story episodes and maps. Getting access to those maps would require a gem store purchase.

 

In case you don't know, OP, the Living Story requires a dual unlock. You have to own the XPac they follow (which you do). The second unlock was free if you logged in during the period following an episodes release. If you did not log in, you need to pay 200 gems per episode. Sometimes, they go on sale.

[Atomos.7593]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Atomos.7593" said:

> > You may want to get a few of the HoT mastery points from the living world season 3 maps first. Some of them are very easy to get.

>

> Didn't the OP say he just came back ad bought the Xpac? In that case, he probably would not have the free unlocks for those Living Story episodes and maps. Getting access to those maps would require a gem store purchase.

>

> In case you don't know, OP, the Living Story requires a dual unlock. You have to own the XPac they follow (which you do). The second unlock was free if you logged in during the period following an episodes release. If you did not log in, you need to pay 200 gems per episode. Sometimes, they go on sale.

 

Yeah the OP may not have any of them unlocked. I suggested it in case they had logged in during the free unlock period for some of the episodes. I only have episodes 3, 5 and 6 unlocked, but I got some easy mastery points from all of them (although the episode 6 map is a bit of a pain to unlock).

[Daddicus.6128]

ANet made huge mistakes with Heart of Thorns (HoT). The maps are very hard to navigate because the mini-map doesn't properly reflect what level you are on. While they haven't fixed the mini-map, they did learn their lesson: Path of Fire and Living Story maps are a lot less cumbersome to navigate.

 

They also put the time-gating in in HoT. You must get certain masteries in order to progress the story. They also corrected this blunder in later maps. But, you can do one thing to help in HoT as well: run two or three characters through at the same time. That way, you get the XP naturally rather than have to grind through it on the same character.

 

Finally, they made the mobs almost impossible to solo. They corrected this in later maps as well, but they also turned down the heat a little in HoT. So, this isn't as much of a problem as it used to be.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

> @"Daddicus.6128" said:

> ANet made huge mistakes with Heart of Thorns (HoT). The maps are very hard to navigate because the mini-map doesn't properly reflect what level you are on. While they haven't fixed the mini-map, they did learn their lesson: Path of Fire and Living Story maps are a lot less cumbersome to navigate.

>

> They also put the time-gating in in HoT. You must get certain masteries in order to progress the story. They also corrected this blunder in later maps. But, you can do one thing to help in HoT as well: run two or three characters through at the same time. That way, you get the XP naturally rather than have to grind through it on the same character.

>

> Finally, they made the mobs almost impossible to solo. They corrected this in later maps as well, but they also turned down the heat a little in HoT. So, this isn't as much of a problem as it used to be.

 

You must get certain Masteries in Path of Fire, as well.

Although, just like Heart of Thorns, it's easy now due to Living World Season maps, and their Mastery Points.

[TheGrimm.5624]

> @"Rainshine.5493" said:

> You misunderstand. I know when I click on a mushroom it tells me etc. But that Hero Challenge over there, can I get to it without Updraft? Did I just spend 45 minutes trying to get there and it's physically impossible right now? That's the frustrating part.

>

> Not the grind @ the "you must be new" person. The lack of feedback in that particular area.

>

> And again, I love exploration, thus my 100% completion of the base game. Sometimes I'd just like to bang out a few story episodes as I actually am in the mood for them.

 

I think you fell into the completionist trap. HoT isn't like core maps where you go and just complete, and that got a lot of players back in the day. HoT, and some of PoF is meant to be played like an onion. You can get to a certain amount of stuff, but until you complete masteries and/or acquire other ways of movements (like mounts) you won't be able to get there. You are meant to come back to things and explore further as you unlock things. A lot of people had issues with that since they were used to finishing all of one before moving on, but it wasn't meant to be played that way but instead you would build layer on layer and return to places to experience later. I will say masteries or not mounts from PoF make HoT movement a lot easier and are still fun to play in HoT. But no, don't buy any XP boosters, but plan on returning to spots you can't get to now, but will be able to later. Good gaming!

 

[keenedge.9675]

If you need HoT core maps. Be sure to get those whenever HoT events are part of a daily. The participation is MUCH better on those days. Same is true for PoF core maps now too.

[coso.9173]

This is part of horizontal progression, one if few strong points.

To prevent each new expansion and living world season making us stronger and stronger into power creep territory, we have this. each new content update comes with new things to unlock and train, useful for those specific maps.

 

[Rukia.4802]

The mastery gating is stupid and arbitrary, something more aligned with WoW than the GW franchise. But ANet needs to appease these people who thirst for that endless grind even though they are not even hard grinds at all making it feel even more artificial. The unlocked mechanics themselves are good, but the mastery system is just dumb if you consider the original design of the game because once you hit xpac content its completely different.

 

Not to mention that they design everything around these systems in maps from then on so they are also required. I'm glad they added gliders and mounts, but I hate that everything now has to be designed around them. I miss good ol regular maps.

 

At least its account bound, could be worse.

[krvutami.8761]

As someone who plays MMO's since early days of WoW and someone who started GW2 only recently (Covid era), I must say that getting through HoT was one of the better gaming experiences I had since finishing DS1 and Bloodborne.

 

HoT has a sense of danger, hopelesness, getting lostness that only matches it's theme. You are in the jungle and you are supposed to go through cycles of suffering and relief. People that complain about it's difficulty (in both terms of mob scaling and navigation), or stuff being mastery gated, just use your intuition. The joy of blind playtrough and reaching new Waypoint was priceless. And don't play like a completionist bot, just forget about it. HoT maps / expansion is awesome and I will remember my frist playtrough forever.

 

EDIT: I can't believe HoT backlash in the past was so big. Aren't we gamers? Being casual doesn't mean you are bad at using keyboard, mouse, eyes and brain. So sad map was nerfed because people cried that much.

[kharmin.7683]

 

To be fair, you weren't here when HoT first launched. It was a significant jump from the content that came before.

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Trise.2865" said:

> It's called "game design". It's a thing games used to have before microtransactions.

 

Yep, go back 10 years and a 'gate' was simply a long term objective to be enjoyed. Now it's a gate for that gratification feed that some players have Been indoctrinated to enjoy.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"krvutami.8761" said:

> As someone who plays MMO's since early days of WoW and someone who started GW2 only recently (Covid era), I must say that getting through HoT was one of the better gaming experiences I had since finishing DS1 and Bloodborne.

>

> HoT has a sense of danger, hopelesness, getting lostness that only matches it's theme. You are in the jungle and you are supposed to go through cycles of suffering and relief. People that complain about it's difficulty (in both terms of mob scaling and navigation), or stuff being mastery gated, just use your intuition. The joy of blind playtrough and reaching new Waypoint was priceless. And don't play like a completionist bot, just forget about it. HoT maps / expansion is awesome and I will remember my frist playtrough forever.

>

> EDIT: I can't believe HoT backlash in the past was so big. Aren't we gamers? Being casual doesn't mean you are bad at using keyboard, mouse, eyes and brain. So sad map was nerfed because people cried that much.

 

HoT is very well made from a ton of points. The two issues one might name would be:

1. The actually story missions were cut and rished towards the end, which unfortunately is very obvious

2. A huge part of the playerbase was unprepared and unwilling to adapt and improve to take on the content

 

When HoT launched, most of the stuff that is semi dangerous now was strait up deadly (and it was great). Pack of miniraptors or smokescale jumped you and you didn't dodge and use defensive abilities? Back to the waypoint.

 

HoT maps remain some of the best designed, multi path available, thought out content I have every seen in any MMORPG. Unfortunately they require some work to learn. Not uncommon to hear players say: "Tangled Depths was my most hated map (it was mine too), until after hours I finally learned to get around. Now it's the best made map in the game (and it is)."

 

The maps and content to this day retains some of its sparkle, even if only for the metas.

[battledrone.8315]

HoT cost them a lot of players and goodwill. it is also one of the few things, that other mmos havent copied from this game.

they even tried to nerf it several times, but you cant nerf bad maps. and the story is awful, they threw away eir stegalkin like a broken toy

if they had made a PROPER expansion, they could easily had beaten wow