Can we please nerf thief's shortbow in some way ?

[Gryxis.6950]

I know there are probably a thousand other threads asking for the same thing, but when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon. Not only does it have extremely strong mobility, but it also has an aoe that is an unblocable daze, a dodge and well just tons of damage

edit : i'm dumb and don't know how to include a screenshot in this forum [https://imgur.com/a/DnsCHDP](https://imgur.com/a/DnsCHDP)

[Tanbin.2436]

"overperforming"

[Dantheman.3589]

Thief 1v1 potential brought down condi on short bow brought down huge initiative increase to the daze. Thief play style needs mobility on short bow and a tiny bit of utility. Most would tell you every build needs short bow but it isn’t really over performing except maybe cluster bomb damage, but you need at least 1 way to do damage on short bow other wise it won’t be useful. The real things that are overpowered rn on thief, which is not much tbh, is all in the traits- stealth time still crazy and steal can do almost every thing when you trait 2 lines into it.

[Gryxis.6950]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> Thief 1v1 potential brought down condi on short bow brought down huge initiative increase to the daze. Thief play style needs mobility on short bow and a tiny bit of utility. Most would tell you every build needs short bow but it isn’t really over performing except maybe cluster bomb damage, but you need at least 1 way to do damage on short bow other wise it won’t be useful. The real things that are overpowered rn on thief, which is not much tbh, is all in the traits- stealth time still crazy and steal can do almost every thing when you trait 2 lines into it.

 

The thing is shortbow's auto attack also deals too much damage especially since it bounces

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > Thief 1v1 potential brought down condi on short bow brought down huge initiative increase to the daze. Thief play style needs mobility on short bow and a tiny bit of utility. Most would tell you every build needs short bow but it isn’t really over performing except maybe cluster bomb damage, but you need at least 1 way to do damage on short bow other wise it won’t be useful. The real things that are overpowered rn on thief, which is not much tbh, is all in the traits- stealth time still crazy and steal can do almost every thing when you trait 2 lines into it.

>

> The thing is shortbow's auto attack also deals too much damage especially since it bounces

 

U could honestly take away bounces imo, but shortbow isn’t really gonna burst so you want the melee set for bursting, if u take away the sneak attack on short bow also thief 1v1s will become pepega and that is also a very important use for cluster bomb so if u kill the damage shortbiw will just become bad and hence ppl will just stop playing thief.

I get the idea but thief isn’t over performing to where we delete shortbow, power rev will just replace it. But that’s my take feel free to feel different

[Crab Fear.1624]

Isn't this a wvw screenshot?

 

What does this have to do with pvp?

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> I know there are probably a thousand other threads asking for the same thing, but when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon. Not only does it have extremely strong mobility, but it also has an aoe that is an unblocable daze, a dodge and well just tons of damage

> edit : i'm dumb and don't know how to include a screenshot in this forum [https://imgur.com/a/DnsCHDP](https://imgur.com/a/DnsCHDP)

 

Overperforming, show us a vid where u overperform with teef sb 5, show us the decap monster when ur team loose the fights when ur sidelad runs again and again into a loosing matchup , show us how u perform 1vs1 on node with sb5 or whatever ... yikes

 

 

 

There is a lot overperforming... teef not.

 

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> I know there are probably a thousand other threads asking for the same thing, but when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon.

 

Survivor bias.

 

Thieves don't all carry shortbow because its op. they carry it because their damage and tankiness is balanced around their mobility, and without the mobility they are unviable.

 

If they were balanced so they could be effective as brawlers, then we can talk about nerfing shortbow. Not in the current meta though.

[Gryxis.6950]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Isn't this a wvw screenshot?

>

> What does this have to do with pvp?

 

It is a wvw screenshot, but the damage of this skill is the same in wvw and in pvp, plus the fact that i had the stonemist castle aura (+100 thoughness) and the major bloodlust (+50) somewhat negates the buff he had from his food. Sure it might not hit the 9.5k in pvp, but the damage would still be almost as high in spvp so yeah it is still relevant to this conversation

[Crab Fear.1624]

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > Isn't this a wvw screenshot?

> >

> > What does this have to do with pvp?

>

> It is a wvw screenshot, but the damage of this skill is the same in wvw and in pvp, plus the fact that i had the stonemist castle aura (+100 thoughness) and the major bloodlust (+50) somewhat negates the buff he had from his food. Sure it might not hit the 9.5k in pvp, but the damage would still be almost as high in spvp so yeah it is still relevant to this conversation

 

it will only get that high with 25 vuln, executioner, and all the other damage modiefies below 50% and someone gave you 10+ might with zerk and ferocity runes

[Gryxis.6950]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > Isn't this a wvw screenshot?

> > >

> > > What does this have to do with pvp?

> >

> > It is a wvw screenshot, but the damage of this skill is the same in wvw and in pvp, plus the fact that i had the stonemist castle aura (+100 thoughness) and the major bloodlust (+50) somewhat negates the buff he had from his food. Sure it might not hit the 9.5k in pvp, but the damage would still be almost as high in spvp so yeah it is still relevant to this conversation

>

> it will only get that high with 25 vuln, executioner, and all the other damage modiefies below 50% and someone gave you 10+ might with zerk and ferocity runes

 

Except i had 20k hp out of 23 when that 9.5k cluster bomb hit. And i didn't have much vuln because it was at the beginning of the fight. There was a guard around so maybe he gave him might but i doubt it because he was hammer/greatsword

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > Isn't this a wvw screenshot?

> >

> > What does this have to do with pvp?

>

> It is a wvw screenshot, but the damage of this skill is the same in wvw and in pvp, plus the fact that i had the stonemist castle aura (+100 thoughness) and the major bloodlust (+50) somewhat negates the buff he had from his food. Sure it might not hit the 9.5k in pvp, but the damage would still be almost as high in spvp so yeah it is still relevant to this conversation

 

Please don't use WvW metrics to balance for PvP. That's why scourge got erased. There are too many variables between the game modes to justify it.

If you want to nerf for SPvP, get metrics from SPvP. You need to prove it is objectively overperforming. anything will hit ridiculous if you buff it enough from sources not tied to the class.

[Gryxis.6950]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:> > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > Isn't this a wvw screenshot?

> > >

> > > What does this have to do with pvp?

> >

> > It is a wvw screenshot, but the damage of this skill is the same in wvw and in pvp, plus the fact that i had the stonemist castle aura (+100 thoughness) and the major bloodlust (+50) somewhat negates the buff he had from his food. Sure it might not hit the 9.5k in pvp, but the damage would still be almost as high in spvp so yeah it is still relevant to this conversation

>

> Please don't use WvW metrics to balance for PvP. That's why scourge got erased. There are too many variables between the game modes to justify it.

> If you want to nerf globally or for SPvP, get metrics from SPvP. You need to prove it is objectively overperforming. anything will hit ridiculous if you buff it enough from sources not tied to the class.

 

I'm aware of the variables and I took them into account. And as i said there were quite a few to my advantage when it comes to tankyness so it wasn't just buffing the thief's damage. That said when the damage (and damage modifier) of the skill is the same in wvw and spvp, really all it comes down to is how much difference food + full stuff compared to an amulet does (and obviously the bloodlust which was in my favor, the keep aura which was also in my favor and the difference when it comes to traits, tho as of now most of the traits are the same in spvp and wvw.) So while i agree that the 9.5k hit would not have been possible (unless might + executioner and all those other damage modifiers that are situational), the 7.5k hit definitely is possible taking all that into account

[Dantheman.3589]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > Isn't this a wvw screenshot?

> > >

> > > What does this have to do with pvp?

> >

> > It is a wvw screenshot, but the damage of this skill is the same in wvw and in pvp, plus the fact that i had the stonemist castle aura (+100 thoughness) and the major bloodlust (+50) somewhat negates the buff he had from his food. Sure it might not hit the 9.5k in pvp, but the damage would still be almost as high in spvp so yeah it is still relevant to this conversation

>

> it will only get that high with 25 vuln, executioner, and all the other damage modiefies below 50% and someone gave you 10+ might with zerk and ferocity runes

 

You also had bound plus didn’t detonate the clusters, which will barely ever hit in pvp. Not saying your wrong but that damage is gonna be rare. Only way to hit damage like that is on the staff roamer build which is workable, but if u kill shortbow the build dies, becuz staff needs extra utility, just try playing it and 1v1 or team fight without swapping to short bow to range ppl down

[Ovark.2514]

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon. Not only does it have extremely strong mobility, but it also has an aoe that is an unblocable daze, a dodge and well just tons of damage

 

Performance aside, every meta thief build has used shortbow since time immemorial. I'm not sure if it's prevalence is thanks to the weapon itself being too strong or that thieves just struggle THAT MUCH at holding a capture point so they always revert back to optimizing for decapping. It's also one of those things where thieves have always run shortbow so noone even thinks to try builds without it - it's just _assumed_ that they will use sb as their secondary and create their build from there.

 

[Jekkt.6045]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon. Not only does it have extremely strong mobility, but it also has an aoe that is an unblocable daze, a dodge and well just tons of damage

>

> Performance aside, every meta thief build has used shortbow since time immemorial. I'm not sure if it's prevalence is thanks to the weapon itself being too strong or that thieves just struggle THAT MUCH at holding a capture point so they always revert back to optimizing for decapping. It's also one of those things where thieves have always run shortbow so noone even thinks to try builds without it - it's just _assumed_ that they will use sb as their secondary and create their build from there.

>

 

there was a build that could hold nodes and didn’t run shortbow. it was mender double staff thief. it got nerfed beyond oblivion. not even in a balance patch but in a special hotfix lol. and then it got nerfed again because why not.

it was extremely strong and could hold 1v3 because you could cancel the aftercast of staff 3 evade.

[Curennos.9307]

Highest I've managed to get in spvp is maybe 4-5k, which imo is pretty fair for a very slow projectile on a squishy class. Zerk/scholar, SA instead of DA or CS though, but even so. Eh. Shortbow has issues but #2 isn't it. I am all for thief getting some innate mobility though and nerfing the hell out of SB5.

[Domino.1359]

Have you played theif? Try it. You NEED SB to maximize mobility. There is certain offsets you live with as theif; you make up for it with SB.

[omgdracula.6345]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon. Not only does it have extremely strong mobility, but it also has an aoe that is an unblocable daze, a dodge and well just tons of damage

>

> Performance aside, every meta thief build has used shortbow since time immemorial. I'm not sure if it's prevalence is thanks to the weapon itself being too strong or that thieves just struggle THAT MUCH at holding a capture point so they always revert back to optimizing for decapping. It's also one of those things where thieves have always run shortbow so noone even thinks to try builds without it - it's just _assumed_ that they will use sb as their secondary and create their build from there.

>

 

Have you played thief? SB is used for decapping because we can't 1v1 as well as other classes. So there is no point to do anything but decap and +1.

[Mauzi.5892]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> T...steal can do almost every thing when you trait 2 lines into it.

 

Dodge the steal, thief countered. Easy as that. Stop the thief hate and cry for nerfs

[foste.3098]

delete shortbow (figuratively) and rebalance the thief around aspects other than how fast it can run to an empty point.

[ASP.8093]

Full-range Clusterbomb has quite a flight time. Dropping it at your feet is good, but so is spending that 3 initiative on Heartseeker.

[kash.9213]

Take away shortbow and they'd have to go through our other skills and utility to make up for the lack of reach and positioning, updating skills like Death's Blossom to let us close or create distance, scale some obstacles, and reach points or to assist would have to happen. They're not about to retool the entire class into a low rent Warrior or something so we're still going to primarily fill that +1 role in spvp and pve. Yes, shortbow has some pretty good utility, all costing Initiative or being slow and telegraphed.

 

Choking Gass tends to get shaken off pretty easily, I like the prev version for choke points and stuff. The dodge is pretty good and I use it maybe as much as #5 but again, it all has a cost and can leave you hanging and helpless pretty fast. SB #5 is great, it counts as a shadowstep, has a blind which I use a lot to cover people, and can combo with dodges like bound really well but again it has a cost and that one especially you have to budget in real time in your head because of how much of a non factor you are if you can't get to the action and likewise what you have left to fight with once you get there.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Ovark.2514" said:

> > @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> > when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon. Not only does it have extremely strong mobility, but it also has an aoe that is an unblocable daze, a dodge and well just tons of damage

>

> Performance aside, every meta thief build has used shortbow since time immemorial. I'm not sure if it's prevalence is thanks to the weapon itself being too strong or that thieves just struggle THAT MUCH at holding a capture point so they always revert back to optimizing for decapping. It's also one of those things where thieves have always run shortbow so noone even thinks to try builds without it - it's just _assumed_ that they will use sb as their secondary and create their build from there.

>

 

It's mostly because our role in the meta is defined by our mobility, and our mobility comes from shortbow. Up until relatively recently mesmer was expected to run portal for similar reasons, it defined their role in the meta and those that didn't bring it were considered to be doing it wrong. I run both deadeye and daredevil builds in WvW without shortbow because I'm not limited by the objectives and win conditions of conquest, but I wouldn't do that in PvP because shortbow defines the role of thief to such an extent that if I didn't bring it, I'd be better playing another class.

 

Also @ Gryxis; Firstly, what were you doing while failing to dodge two cluster bombs and a dodge? The cast times alone mean that attack sequence took around 3 seconds, you had plenty of time to react especially given you had 23k health so the first attack didn't even take you below 50%. Secondly, to say that there's something wrong with the set simply because it's run by most thieves doesn't make much sense. I mean, staff is run by virtually every necro build, but you wouldn't necessarily say that staff is OP because every necro runs it, right?

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Gryxis.6950" said:

> I know there are probably a thousand other threads asking for the same thing, but when almost every player of an already overperformating class have the shortbow as a second weapon there is something definitely wrong with that weapon. Not only does it have extremely strong mobility, but it also has an aoe that is an unblocable daze, a dodge and well just tons of damage

> edit : i'm dumb and don't know how to include a screenshot in this forum [https://imgur.com/a/DnsCHDP](https://imgur.com/a/DnsCHDP)

 

Every theif uses shortbow because shortbow 5 is essentially the entire thief class. Its the only reason to pick thief. And shortbow has "tons of damage?" Its one of the lowest damage weaponsets on all classes by a wide margin. Its a utility weapon.