Death Blossom, should it reflect projectiles?

[Sparrow.5936]

I personally think Death Blossom should reflect projectiles when used, making D/D a little more nuanced in game modes , especially in PVE and WVW.

Would that be OP ? Inconsequential ? or Fun ?

What do you think ?

[Fueki.4753]

And what are you giving up to get the reflect?

 

It's causing Bleeding (and other conditions when traited that way).

It's hitting multiple targets (which just got increased from 3 to 5 targets on the 7th).

It's hitting multiple times.

It got evade frames.

It's a combo finisher.

 

I don't think it needs even more functionality.

[Sparrow.5936]

Why do you have to give up something? Maybe have it cost one more initiative?

Sounds like you're saying it might be too much with the reflect projectiles? Too much functionality? That's a fine opinion to have. But are you saying Death Blossom is in a good place now?

 

But it's just a weird move since D/D is mostly power based skills except for DB which is condition damage based. It's balanced funny. I think it would provide just the right tweak to make D/D a bit more enjoyable outside of condi builds and deadeye backstabs.

[Zacchary.6183]

There is no point in reflecting projectiles when it already evades.

[kash.9213]

> @"Fueki.4753" said:

> And what are you giving up to get the reflect?

>

> It's causing Bleeding (and other conditions when traited that way).

> It's hitting multiple targets (which just got increased from 3 to 5 targets on the 7th).

> It's hitting multiple times.

> It got evade frames.

> It's a combo finisher.

>

> I don't think it needs even more functionality.

 

Nothing needs to be given up for Death's Blossom, it just needs to be improved being stuck in d/d kit. It doesn't need a reflect though, it needs reach.

[Fueki.4753]

> @"Sparrow.5936" said:

> Why do you have to give up something? > Maybe have it cost one more initiative?

> Sounds like you're saying it might be too much with the reflect projectiles?

> Too much functionality?

That's literally what my last sentenced meant.

 

But are you saying Death Blossom is in a good place now?

It definitely is not in a fine place, but so is nearly nothing on Thief.

A skill doesn't need to be bloated with functionality, when the existing functionalities good just be improved, like increasing the power damage and/or its range.

 

> That's a fine opinion to have.

Bloat never is fine option.

 

> But it's just a weird move since D/D is mostly power based skills except for DB which is condition damage based. It's balanced funny. I think it would provide just the right tweak to make D/D a bit more enjoyable outside of condi builds and deadeye backstabs.

I would remove the bleed on Death Blossom and make it a pure power weapon. I'd also increase its damage and reach (as mentioned above).

 

 

> @"kash.9213" said:

> Nothing needs to be given up for Death's Blossom, it just needs to be improved being stuck in d/d kit. It doesn't need a reflect though, it needs reach.

It shouldn't have six functions, when most skills only have one or two.

As mentioned above, I'm not opposed to improving the current functionalities though.

 

 

[Taril.8619]

Proj reflect seems a little unnecessary on a skill that already provides evade.

 

Nor would it really improve the skill in any meaningful way. The main use of proj reflect being in WvW to reflect proj spam from blobs, but not only is Thief not very good in blobs at all, but D/D is woeful for blobbing (Shortbow and Staff both provide far more to a blob than D/D even with proj reflect)

 

Death Blossom's pitfalls include up to several of the following:

- Low reach (Even with its new 5 target cap, it can still be difficult actually HITTING 5 targets)

- Low mobility (If trying to use it as a movement skill, it just doesn't take you very far)

- Low power damage (Making it useless for Power builds)

- Low condi damage (It is outclassed by P/D and SB)

 

Addressing one or more of those would serve the skill better than tacking on additional functionality that is not particularly relevant to fixing these issues.

[kash.9213]

> @"Taril.8619" said:

> Proj reflect seems a little unnecessary on a skill that already provides evade.

>

> Nor would it really improve the skill in any meaningful way. The main use of proj reflect being in WvW to reflect proj spam from blobs, but not only is Thief not very good in blobs at all, but D/D is woeful for blobbing (Shortbow and Staff both provide far more to a blob than D/D even with proj reflect)

>

> Death Blossom's pitfalls include up to several of the following:

> - Low reach (Even with its new 5 target cap, it can still be difficult actually HITTING 5 targets)

> - Low mobility (If trying to use it as a movement skill, it just doesn't take you very far)

> - Low power damage (Making it useless for Power builds)

> - Low condi damage (It is outclassed by P/D and SB)

>

> Addressing one or more of those would serve the skill better than tacking on additional functionality that is not particularly relevant to fixing these issues.

 

D/D is fun and it's kind of passable in blobs but I agree it's woeful. CnD is pretty strong in large fights and DB can detarget and keep you around with a little prescience but a lot of the time it feels like a slow motion movie death scene.

 

Oddly enough sometimes when I open with DB if my Quickness goes off right then DB feels like it's launching me further, but that could be an illusion from going faster. I just know it's put me in weird spots before.

[Sparrow.5936]

I think I'd rather have a full second of reflect projectiles as opposed to that 1/2 frame evade.

 

But yea, more likely just make it more oriented towards power builds would be better overall. I think thief was always meant to be played with hybrid builds in mind, but this game doesn't seem balanced right for that to me.

[Taril.8619]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> Oddly enough sometimes when I open with DB if my Quickness goes off right then DB feels like it's launching me further, but that could be an illusion from going faster. I just know it's put me in weird spots before.

 

Actually, it might really move you further.

 

Since given that Quickness speeds up animations, it might be that it's providing extra "Velocity" much like those effects for projectiles that make them faster and increase their range (Such as Kneeling with DE Rifle)

 

Though, one side effect of increased range of motion with DB is that due to it's smol attack radius it might be possible to move far enough so that 1-2 of the attacks don't land on the target (Especially if they happen to be running towards you)

[NorthernRedStar.3054]

No thanks. Thief'd have to give up something to have such an overbloated skill, and personally I'd rather not divert power from other skills.

[Yasai.3549]

Skill is already bloated as heck.

 

And technically if yu evade, yu shouldn't reflect either since nothing is hitting yu.

[SlitheSlivier.1908]

They need to reduce how much projectile hate there is... not add more

[DeceiverX.8361]

D/D's problem is mobility and nothing else.

The only justification for proj reflection on it is longbow soulbeast, which is a problem because D/D can't keep up with its mobility, rather than from being unable to negate its damage.

 

Here you go, skill fixed:

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> Needs a rework. Fixed-distance dash evade 600-900 units, bleeds single-target in larger stacks at the end of the movement so that it won't reveal if used as defense while in stealth (like it currently does which actively works against power D/D). Can't be spammed this way for damage since you'll always be moving away and then dealing the damage, and encourages better spacing and non-spam by condi builds, while providing better mobility and fixes a lot of problems with escapees and disengage potential with power builds, and gets synergy with CnD for the condi variant.

>

> Drop the cost to 3 due to slightly higher dependence on CnD for optimized damage and lack of spammable PbAoE damage, since it no longer becomes a viable damage source like FS nor a true disengage like IS/IR on S/D, and this can keep condi playing in the same style as power by having it use CnD to reposition/gain distance, and strike again for the fixed-distance strike.

>

> With this, condi D/D now requires more skill and active initiative management, and now you've got a consistent performer across power/condi and D/D actually has some synergy and value across its skills for both builds. Power gets buffed in mobility and sustain which it desperately needs.

>

> Been saying this for years. ANet won't do it because it was a fan-loved GW1 skill that was super strong. Sad truth.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1251478#Comment_1251478

[Katalan.7930]

Reflecting projectiles is a good and funny idea in my opinion.

However it would be too strong: evade + reflection = too much defensive.

To add a plus to your idea and make this skill less spammy and more skillful I would love Anet to make Death Blossom access to a new skill exactly like sword 3 or pistol 3 allows to do.

Then once you press "3" you have access to another skill by pressing "3" again in case you succeed the evade or hit your target: why not reflecting projectile + something damage.

 

Anyways I like the idea but it should be more hard to access to be balanced.

 

[Shiyo.3578]

Giving d/d shadowshot basically because "The weapon set lacks mobility" just makes the weapon set the same as d/p.

If you want to play dagger and have mobility - > d/p

D/D's dual skill should be unique, which d/d is, it's just unique in a bad way.

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> Giving d/d shadowshot basically because "The weapon set lacks mobility" just makes the weapon set the same as d/p.

> If you want to play dagger and have mobility - > d/p

> D/D's dual skill should be unique, which d/d is, it's just unique in a bad way.

 

Wasn't aware D/D had OOC stackable stealth and easy blind access in-kit without traits as well as spammable re-engage.

 

If mobility wasn't fundamentally important to the thief, nobody would care or would have complained about Swipe's reduced radius. And that's on a spec with baseline increased sustain and mobility with high synergy with D/P, too.

[Shiyo.3578]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tow_Line - > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hooked_Spear (Spear 4) would be a really fun flip skill set for death blossom imo. It's really fun underwater and fits D/D pretty well on top of giving it a gap closer.

[Aihao.5824]

just let it be an attack from both hands, dd weaponset has almost nothing for condi dmg, so let it be pure power set

[Shao.7236]

> @"Zacchary.6183" said:

> There is no point in reflecting projectiles when it already evades.

 

Dagger Storm was already a reflect yet they added evade frames and even kept stability for a while.

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Aihao.5824" said:

> just let it be an attack from both hands, dd weaponset has almost nothing for condi dmg, so let it be pure power set

 

There poison on one of the three attacks on the #1. There up to 15 bleeds on the #3 . (the best AOE we have really) . There cripple and torment on #4. There a vuln out of #5 albeit no condition build will use for that. You can trait #3 to also add 2 poison.

 

That is significant conditions. The way a Condition build works in thief is you generally trait for those conditions and can in fact turn any weapon set into a condition set.

 

You go through the weapon sets on any of the other professions Condition builds and it much the same. You are not seeing conditions applied on everyone of slots 1-5 on a good number of weapons in Condition sets. They boost the condition output via traits.

 

In open world PVE if you trait up SOM you can be all but unkillable. I have used it to solo flip towers and it very good at taking out camps or anywhere enemies cluster. Indeed if you design the condition build correctly you will find it can be advantageous to fight an enemy inside a camp they own rather then try and draw him out of it as those extra targets fuel heals and can get you a rally if you are downed.. It can work very well as a condition set. The problem with it as a condition set is just as with using it as power or hybrid, it lacks mobility and can be hard to engage an enemy with. Spec out DE or DD as an elite and you have that issue of limited ability to close.

 

 

[pureskullz.7536]

I have 4,000 hours on Core D/D and death blossom does not need a buff. Death blossom is meant to be a defensive ability and nothing else. The auto attacks on dagger main hand generate endurance(10, or 20) on a potential of two targets under the name Wild Strike. You combine this with Vigor from the trickery trait line or acrobatics. And you will find D/D generates enough endurance to survive. Now, what would d/d really need? Most likely for CnD to be unblockable and if this is the case they most likely should decrease the base power very slightly. It would be nice to see Dancing dagger have a bit more of an effect on the target but Otherwise, I find no issue with using the set It's meant to be an aggressive high risk and high reward weapon set. It does what it was intended to do and that's fine. And for those of you complaining about mobility, there's a reason for that. The set hits extremely hard when set up correctly. Use blinds and dodges and stealth instead to land hits. Or use a ranged weapon to make up for it. I personally prefer shadow arts for d/d but acrobatics can work just as well.

[kash.9213]

> @"pureskullz.7536" said:

> I have 4,000 hours on Core D/D and death blossom does not need a buff. Death blossom is meant to be a defensive ability and nothing else. The auto attacks on dagger main hand generate endurance(10, or 20) on a potential of two targets under the name Wild Strike. You combine this with Vigor from the trickery trait line or acrobatics. And you will find D/D generates enough endurance to survive. Now, what would d/d really need? Most likely for CnD to be unblockable and if this is the case they most likely should decrease the base power very slightly. It would be nice to see Dancing dagger have a bit more of an effect on the target but Otherwise, I find no issue with using the set It's meant to be an aggressive high risk and high reward weapon set. It does what it was intended to do and that's fine. And for those of you complaining about mobility, there's a reason for that. The set hits extremely hard when set up correctly. Use blinds and dodges and stealth instead to land hits. Or use a ranged weapon to make up for it. I personally prefer shadow arts for d/d but acrobatics can work just as well.

 

What do you have on your utility bar with D/D? I feel like I have to keep Infiltrators Signet on there regardless what else I have. I kind of have condi cleanse worked out.

[pureskullz.7536]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"pureskullz.7536" said:

> > I have 4,000 hours on Core D/D and death blossom does not need a buff. Death blossom is meant to be a defensive ability and nothing else. The auto attacks on dagger main hand generate endurance(10, or 20) on a potential of two targets under the name Wild Strike. You combine this with Vigor from the trickery trait line or acrobatics. And you will find D/D generates enough endurance to survive. Now, what would d/d really need? Most likely for CnD to be unblockable and if this is the case they most likely should decrease the base power very slightly. It would be nice to see Dancing dagger have a bit more of an effect on the target but Otherwise, I find no issue with using the set It's meant to be an aggressive high risk and high reward weapon set. It does what it was intended to do and that's fine. And for those of you complaining about mobility, there's a reason for that. The set hits extremely hard when set up correctly. Use blinds and dodges and stealth instead to land hits. Or use a ranged weapon to make up for it. I personally prefer shadow arts for d/d but acrobatics can work just as well.

>

> What do you have on your utility bar with D/D? I feel like I have to keep Infiltrators Signet on there regardless what else I have. I kind of have condi cleanse worked out.

 

Depends on the weapon you have that you're using with D/D and the build you're using. I prefer running core so my set up for core right now is. Hide in shadows, Roll for initiative, shadow refugee, signet of shadows, dagger storm. If you're running daredevil and deadeye then infiltrators signet is kind of a must-have. If you have any questions about it I'd be happy to help just send me mail in-game or whisper if I'm online.

[kash.9213]

> @"pureskullz.7536" said:

> > @"kash.9213" said:

> > > @"pureskullz.7536" said:

> > > I have 4,000 hours on Core D/D and death blossom does not need a buff. Death blossom is meant to be a defensive ability and nothing else. The auto attacks on dagger main hand generate endurance(10, or 20) on a potential of two targets under the name Wild Strike. You combine this with Vigor from the trickery trait line or acrobatics. And you will find D/D generates enough endurance to survive. Now, what would d/d really need? Most likely for CnD to be unblockable and if this is the case they most likely should decrease the base power very slightly. It would be nice to see Dancing dagger have a bit more of an effect on the target but Otherwise, I find no issue with using the set It's meant to be an aggressive high risk and high reward weapon set. It does what it was intended to do and that's fine. And for those of you complaining about mobility, there's a reason for that. The set hits extremely hard when set up correctly. Use blinds and dodges and stealth instead to land hits. Or use a ranged weapon to make up for it. I personally prefer shadow arts for d/d but acrobatics can work just as well.

> >

> > What do you have on your utility bar with D/D? I feel like I have to keep Infiltrators Signet on there regardless what else I have. I kind of have condi cleanse worked out.

>

> Depends on the weapon you have that you're using with D/D and the build you're using. I prefer running core so my set up for core right now is. Hide in shadows, Roll for initiative, shadow refugee, signet of shadows, dagger storm. If you're running daredevil and deadeye then infiltrators signet is kind of a must-have. If you have any questions about it I'd be happy to help just send me mail in-game or whisper if I'm online.

 

Thank you much. I was lazy so stuck with my main DrD/DE build and switched a couple of traits, then I'm switching traits depending on which heal I'm using. With Shortbow I feel alright in small fights to blob stuff but I wish I could hold quickness more reliably for Death blossom to clear distance better.