[Suggestion] A Proper Trading System Between Players

[Shirlias.8104]

> @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > But if trading and scamming would mean to lose your account, the chances would be really Low.

> > > Two words: stolen accounts.

> > >

> > > And for those that want a direct trading system to avoid TP tax: what makes you think that if anet ever made such a system, they _wouldn't_ attach a tax on top of it?

> > >

> >

> > Stolen accounts won't have any double check password ( pw + mobile verification ), and also won't have any confirmed previous trade ( there will be provvided record in order to grant for the one who use it, the more he decides to trade ).

> >

> > It would be the first time an account, which is elegible for trading outside the tp because of its ap, will make a trade.

> >

> > The one which wants to trade with him will consider it. But to say that he should or shouldn't it's up to him.

>

> Why won’t it have the double check. If they stole the account then they’ll have the password. If the person doesn’t have the verification they can then get into the account information and set it up (That’s one of the known ways they lock the true owners out of their own account. People have posted on the forum and Reddit how their stolen account has the thief’s mobile verification set up). As for not having any confirmed trades, what makes you think they won’t? I’m sure accounts that have traded before can have their account stolen also.

>

> Edit: if they can get into the account email and find the information from the purchase they can contact support, be confirmed as the owner using information from the email, have support remove any mobile verification and then change the password and put in their own verification.

 

My point was simply that it could have happened before the sms verification, or maybe with old accounts which haven't been used since the introduction of the security system.

 

If you lose your account because you don't use the sms verification, then you deserve anything.

 

Ps: also, the further the game goes, the more ap will be required. There’s definitely a very very small possibility that the user decides to exploit.

 

And if all players have sms security and trade with xxxxx ap players, i can hardly see a scam happen.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > @"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

> > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > But if trading and scamming would mean to lose your account, the chances would be really Low.

> > > > Two words: stolen accounts.

> > > >

> > > > And for those that want a direct trading system to avoid TP tax: what makes you think that if anet ever made such a system, they _wouldn't_ attach a tax on top of it?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Stolen accounts won't have any double check password ( pw + mobile verification ), and also won't have any confirmed previous trade ( there will be provvided record in order to grant for the one who use it, the more he decides to trade ).

> > >

> > > It would be the first time an account, which is elegible for trading outside the tp because of its ap, will make a trade.

> > >

> > > The one which wants to trade with him will consider it. But to say that he should or shouldn't it's up to him.

> >

> > Why won’t it have the double check. If they stole the account then they’ll have the password. If the person doesn’t have the verification they can then get into the account information and set it up (That’s one of the known ways they lock the true owners out of their own account. People have posted on the forum and Reddit how their stolen account has the thief’s mobile verification set up). As for not having any confirmed trades, what makes you think they won’t? I’m sure accounts that have traded before can have their account stolen also.

> >

> > Edit: if they can get into the account email and find the information from the purchase they can contact support, be confirmed as the owner using information from the email, have support remove any mobile verification and then change the password and put in their own verification.

>

> My point was simply that it could have happened before the sms verification, or maybe with old accounts which haven't been used since the introduction of the security system.

>

> If you lose your account because you don't use the sms verification, then you deserve anything.

 

You can also lose your account if you have sms verification and they get into your email and get your account information at purchase and use that to convince support that they are the account holder.

 

However whether or not people have sms is beside the point about p2p trading as accounts can be lost either way, so it can’t be used to judge account reliability in a p2p trade as an account can be stolen and have sms set up after the theft.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"geochan.9184" said:

> The tax you pay goes to the government and improvements of the cities.

>

> Don't evade taxes.

 

We would all like to think that, but it would be naive. ;)

[TheGrimm.5624]

Could be me but we have to much denial going on here and seems unbalance so have to go the other route. Lets play both sides here for a second:

 

* TP is a gold sync, that is healthy to a degree to keep a balance of older players and newer, its not healthy to have a new player not be able to buy items they need

* Players use the TP all day long to scam other players - I define this by having no penalty to undervalue materials and crafted goods based on the crafted materials raw component current value, if you don't think players place buy orders to try and game another players impulse to "sell it now" then you are fooling yourself

* There is no penalty to placing undervalue buys but there is a price for over listing which drives prices down

* ANet, and I like them and support them (and have it on record), is a business that needs to have funding to development new things outside of expansions

* Its in a company's best interest to sell items players will buy

* Players with less time and more cash will trade gems bought with cash to gold and allowing players to makes less while gaming will support this, hence tools in game that support driving prices down also benefit these sales

* Having everything be worthless is not good, having everything to be priceless is not good

* Having vendor items not fluctuate based on market value means you have additional pressure that loot is worth less the more prices drop since some fixed costs remain the same, 100 hundred icy rune-stones still cost 100 gold then and now

* Syncs are annoying but have value to help that balance of under/over value, but meaningful syncs are more well received then just flat one-sided syncs. Take a listing fee over a griffon, both are good syncs but one will hold more value than the other

 

So yes it is about player driven economy but its also favors undervaluing which sounds good on paper but not when you need coin for vendor only materials it favors those that already made their money or those willing to pull their wallet (which I am part of I admit). And no don't want chat to filled with WTS (but have seen games with separate chat channels) but giving players a way to direct trading wouldn't be a ends all since most wouldn't use it, and as said above it could be done as simple as both agree swap interfaces or Cash on Delivery email systems which other games have used. But please stop with this is the perfect trading tool, it isn't it favors the buyers too much versus the people that went out to acquire the item and spent time gaming to get it. It also encourages crafted items to be easily worth less than their base materials which demeans the value in crafting most items. I like trading systems in games and they are mini-games in themselves. I game and I flip but this system favors the flippers more than the average player going out and looting/gathering and encourages price reduction and without meaningful syncs loot becomes less and less of value. And be truthful, to many loot is the shinny end for the time spent. This won't be well received by many, but there needs to a balance in things. And no, probably wouldn't use it in most cases but doesn't mean it shouldn't be there. The best trading systems allows for both active and passive traders and a balance in raw/crafted goods values as well as room for flippers that can take advantage of market shortfalls or geographical needs. Have yet to find a perfect system but doesn't mean we stop trying to find one or improve ones we have. Good trading!

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> I was at some point wandering if Anet have any gold information on how much in-game currency the Black Lion Trading Company makes out of the TP a year, and since launch. Those would be interesting statistics to to see. How much gold was lost by the community only for trading stuff? The guys from the Black Lion Trading Company must by filthy rich I guess, lol.

>

> I don't mind the fact there is a fee attached to the trading process on the TP, but I feel it's a bit too high sometimes, especially on how it scales. I mean I was and would still be right now in a situation I wouldn't be able to sell something around 1000 gold if somehow luck strikes and I get a hold of something that valuable. It's a bit unfair to not be allowed to make money if you don't own at that point. The expanse is like this: 5% of the price of the item(s) for just posting it (that means you can't post something that amounts in 1000 gold if you don't own at least 50 gold and even then you'll need to be at 0 gold until someone buys your item) and after the transaction is complete you only get 90% of the price you posted (900 gold form that 1000 example, practically losing 100, lets say that would be double of the amount you previously had in the 50 gold example, meaning actually tones of money). In total it's a 15% fee, which amounts in 150 gold if the price of the transaction you post is 1000 gold. So you get 850 gold of the 1000 you were bargaining for if you use the TP.

 

That is correct. 5% listing, 10% transaction. Seems very fair that it scales using the same % regardless of value.

 

> I don't mind the TP being a gold sink, but it's pretty sad that if you want to make money for just a specific item, like a legendary peace of it's not allowing you to use the trading cost money for something useful to you like the construction of that legendary piece of gear. It feels that it has no competitions, there is no reliable alternative to it, competition between them and other Trading Company is not existent, there are no vouchers, incentives to reduce the transaction tax, and really I doubt irl the taxes are so high for the usual transactions and the economy is still working... actually I guess value-added tax exists in every economy, but then again this in-game gold tax just goes to waste, where the devs use the player real money as an additional tax, if I may word it like this, to improve the game's infrastructure...

 

You just said yourself that you don't mind TP being a gold sink. Consider the 15% a service charge for ensuring a secure transaction where you don't get scammed, can remain anonymous and conveniently have your items listed even when you are offline.

 

> I might be wrong in my view, but I'm curious what other people think about it.

 

My dude, you managed to fish this thread from God-knows which page from SEVEN months ago. It's not even the right topic - the OP was about p2p trading and you're about reducing TP costs.

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> Why do you want a "Trading System Between Players" when we already have the TP which is the best?

 

well, you can use the TP to trade with a specific player....oh wait....

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > Why do you want a "Trading System Between Players" when we already have the TP which is the best?

>

> well, you can use the TP to trade with a specific player....oh wait....

 

What is the *purpose* of trading with a specific person, yet someone you don't trust enough to trade via mail?

[Mork.9532]

Just a side note for those who are sad about TP fees or don't understand what purpose it serves: It's a very efficient way to remove gold from the game (they also use WP costs, for instance). Why so? Because thanks to enemies infinitively spawning, there's constantly gold injected in the game's economy, which would lead to a massive inflation if nothing was done to remove some gold from the game.

That's a real issue in MMOs. (That's also why I don't understand why they allow to change gems into gold, but that's another story...)

So, it's a reason why they _probably_ will not do a system allowing you to dodge the TP fees.

(End of the side note.)

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"Mork.9532" said:

> (That's also why I don't understand why they allow to change gems into gold, but that's another story...)

Because the currency exchange only uses gold supplied to it by players buying gems with gold, and *also* has a fee like the TP (it's just not clearly stated). So buying gold via gems doesn't actually *create* gold in the game.

 

[Zaraki.5784]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > Why do you want a "Trading System Between Players" when we already have the TP which is the best?

>

> well, you can use the TP to trade with a specific player....oh wait....

 

Why would you want to trade with a specific player? If it's a friend and/or you trust him, just mail with him, if you don't trust him, TP saves you from being scammed. Simple...

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"blambidy.3216" said:

> And sometimes trading to a friend is better then coughing up gold, if you have equal value. Yes there is mailing but the fact that having someone near you instead up lookin up their username is just a little more simple.

 

If your friend is "near you" as they would have to be in any P2P trade system I've seen, click on them, RClick on portrait, pick "Send mail." If the person is a friend, then you should trust each other. Well, at least I would not consider people friends if I doubted their honesty with virtual stuff.

 

The reason for this request is not to enable trade between friends, it is to be able to bypass the TP fee, the only gold sink of any real consequence in the game.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > Why do you want a "Trading System Between Players" when we already have the TP which is the best?

>

> well, you can use the TP to trade with a specific player....oh wait....

 

You can already trade with specific players. What's stopping you?

[blambidy.3216]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> > @"blambidy.3216" said:

> > Cause sometimes tp has disappointments.

> Can you provide some examples of what you mean by this? thanks.

>

> > And sometimes trading to a friend is better then coughing up gold, if you have equal value. Yes there is mailing but the fact that having someone near you instead up lookin up their username is just a little more simple.

> "Someone near you" hardly qualifies as a friend.

>

>

> > I agree there is the tp. But not all times the tp gives equal value.

> The TP always offers market rates. By definition.

>

> > When the value of a mat dips when you know the price is wrong.

> If you disagree with the market, nothing is stopping you from listing at the higher price. But good luck finding any buyers who would be willing to pay you extra, when they can see the TP prices.

>

> > And when random people over price a mat and then thousands of people follow it.

> Why would you say that 1000s of people are wrong about the price?

>

> > For example right now everything is skyrocket because the gold to gems conversion is just crazy high. When I started gw2 2 years ago , 100 gold to gems was high but 124 gold for 400 gems?

> It's been 100-140 gold (per 400 gems) for several years. It very rarely dips below 100; it's risen about 140 even less often. Typically, it's been trading at 105-115.

>

> > Over priced. And then sooner or later when the next expansion happens, gold to gems gets down to about 80 gold for 400 gems. So selling to get more money is more tough. It’s more like day trading then actual set concrete value. Which makes things hard to determine.

> Again, why is your idea of "overpriced" more important than everyone else's?

>

>

> > Sometimes it’s better to trade.

> What times are those, other than to avoid TP fees, for guild-related trades (decorations or shovels), or services?

 

Question number 1. Disappointments in pricing of mats. Which I mean of value going low. For example globs of ectoplasm use to be around 30 silver a piece. Now it’s about 15-20 a piece. And the thing is they have never gone back up. The highest it’s been around is 25 s maybe?

 

Second question. What I mean by sometimes it’s better. Because when crafting ascended or legendary you don’t have extra gold to give. Especially when you already farmed for 30-40 gold that day. So instead of buying from the trading post, offering a trade to a friend is better depending on they want in return.

 

Third question. Yes everyone doesn’t qualify as friend but I meant someone near as in friend who is near. As much as looking up a friend in composing a message is easy, when new, there are mistakes that have happened. For example mailing something to the wrong person and the person won’t mail it back, if arenanet made an adjustment on mailing where both have to mail in equivalence, putting things in mail wouldn’t be so scary. If your giving something or being cheated.

 

Forth question. Well thousand was an over exaggerating number, however many do get the price wrong. Or it’s too high. For example I shouldn’t be stuck in selling something underpriced that I crafted, if it took me more costy mats to make. Sometimes you lose money. Yes I know that you could wait for price to break even, but that could be few days. And tbh we just want to sell, make gold, and move on instead of worrying about if this gear is going back to an ok price to sell.

 

Statement 5. Yes 105-115 is about there. But iv seen more around 100. But iv only been here couple of years. Noticing when it goes higher then 115, pricing for mats get higher, and when it’s under 100 prices get lower. But that could be an assumption.

 

Question 6. How because everything has value. and Only time prices drop is when more of the mats have been up for sale, or sold. Since pof maps, more ancient and elderwood have been created and the prices have gone lower. But occasionally even though these mat value of rarity dropped because of duplication on maps, they still get higher in value occasionally? That’s what I mean by things aren’t very (fair) per se.

 

Value of a mat usually is by the rarity of you gathering it. And if the rates barely change.... it shouldn’t really change much. The only things that should be changing much are like skins, dyes and rare items.

 

Last question. When I meant by avoid is just not sell anything and wait till the price adjusts. During that time is when I would suggest having trading to a person then waiting few days to a week for pricing to come back.

 

I’m not saying tp is bad, I love it. All I’m saying is arenanet should allow trading to players. And players should trade when the value of mats are lower then what their worth. It’s better to have the choice to trade, then wait a week to sell and get your gold.

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"blambidy.3216" said:

> All I’m saying is arenanet should allow trading to players.

 

It's already allowed.

The difference is that the TP is guaranteed because ANet can ensure that all transactions are "fair." There's no P2P trading system in any game that can guarantee that, so ANet decided to not support it with a specific UI; we can still trade with other players via mail.

 

> And players should trade when the value of mats are lower then what their worth.

The TP shows us what they are worth. You & I don't get to decide if they are "lower than what they are worth;" we can only decide if we are unwilling to sell for that price.

 

> It’s better to have the choice to trade, then wait a week to sell and get your gold.

We have that choice now. If I don't like the prices, I can still make an offer now and wait for it to fulfill.

 

 

[Ayrilana.1396]

I see this request as nothing more than simply greed in an effort to avoid TP fees.

 

It causes Anet to spend resources on developing a trade system and likely a trade chat channel. I wouldn’t be surprised if some people then requested a section on the LFG. Customer service will then have to deal with all of those submitting tickets because they got scammed. This also circumvents the very important task that TP fees provide. We’ll also see increased misuse of the LFG with ads and increased spamming in map chat regardless of what tools Anet adds to assist with trade advertising.

 

All of this because some players want to make an extra 17.65% more from what they make now without using mail or guild bank trading.

[Just a flesh wound.3589]

> @"Mork.9532" said:

> Just a side note for those who are sad about TP fees or don't understand what purpose it serves: It's a very efficient way to remove gold from the game (they also use WP costs, for instance). Why so? Because thanks to enemies infinitively spawning, there's constantly gold injected in the game's economy, which would lead to a massive inflation if nothing was done to remove some gold from the game.

> That's a real issue in MMOs. (**That's also why I don't understand why they allow to change gems into gold**, but that's another story...)

> So, it's a reason why they _probably_ will not do a system allowing you to dodge the TP fees.

> (End of the side note.)

 

Just a comment as I suspect from your post that you think that the gold is created when gems are exchanged for gold.

 

ANet set up a gold pool and a gem pool before launch but after that all gems and all gold going in and out of the pool are from players. Player A will put X gold in and pull out Y gems. Player B will put in Y gems and pull out Z gold. It’s an indirect trade of gold and gems between players by putting the gold/gems into the pool and taking out their purchase. Neither gold nor gems are created by the trade. All gems are first bought in the gemstore and all gold is farmed by players of the game.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> Why do you want a "Trading System Between Players" when we already have the TP which is the best?

People literally trying to commit virtual tax evasion.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

This idea is great

[mauried.5608]

How about a compromise of a player to player trading system which incurs a tax of 30% on all trades?

 

[Rauderi.8706]

> @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> > @"Mork.9532" said:

> > (That's also why I don't understand why they allow to change gems into gold, but that's another story...)

> Because the currency exchange only uses gold supplied to it by players buying gems with gold, and *also* has a fee like the TP (it's just not clearly stated). So buying gold via gems doesn't actually *create* gold in the game.

>

 

They allow gem > gold transactions as a way to discourage RMT and gold-sellers. Not nearly as profitable for the buyer (with the added insult of truncated gold value, gimme my silver), but it won't get your account banned and significantly reduces predation against players.

[Grogba.6204]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> How about a compromise of a player to player trading system which incurs a tax of 30% on all trades?

>

 

Oooh, I like that idea.

[Tanner Blackfeather.6509]

> @"mauried.5608" said:

> How about a compromise of a player to player trading system which incurs a tax of 30% on all trades?

>

 

Still immensly problematic.

1) The above discussed (to death) scamming risk - we'd still see the (likely significant) increase in support tickets over scams.

2) How would you "tax" an item-to-item trade?

[mauried.5608]

Tax the amount of gold being agreed upon in the trade.

eg I sell you a legendary weapon for 3000G , I get 3000 G , you pay 3900 G.

The other 900 G goes to the extremely poor CEO of the Black Lion Company.

As for all the paranoia about scamming, until Anet actually designed an interface to allow P2P trading its not possible to know.

I personally dont think there is a need for P2P trading, but there needs to be some balance in the discussion other than everyone continually screaming everyone will get scammed.

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"Tanner Blackfeather.6509" said:

> > @"mauried.5608" said:

> > How about a compromise of a player to player trading system which incurs a tax of 30% on all trades?

> >

>

> Still immensly problematic.

> 1) The above discussed (to death) scamming risk - we'd still see the (likely significant) increase in support tickets over scams.

> 2) How would you "tax" an item-to-item trade?

 

You would calculate what the items people are trying to trade with echother and have them put in 30% value in gold into the trade that will poof ofcourse.

if someone is selling a precursor and asking for gold instead.

They add 30% into a separate spot in the tradewindow said seller have to add 30% of what the buyer is giving him that will vanish into the void.

[Ashen.2907]

Hmm,

 

In order to facilitate a direct trade system Anet could create a new category for support tickets, "direct trade issues." Then have those support tickets automatically archived without being looked at.