Fun times, but condi

[Leonidrex.5649]

hates to condis comes from the fact that you get shit on and die 5s later, and refuse to admit that you are bad and died because you are bad and whine that damage came out of nowhere while in reality you got spanked hella hard and didnt even realize it cuz you need big flashing numbers to start reacting.

[Sifu.9745]

I play mostly condi builds because with power i barely do any dmg to some professions. As Power Mesmer(no matter if i play core/mirage or chrono) i do zero dmg to Holo, Tempest, Weaver, and all kind of Guardian builds: i just can't bring these builds below 90% health no matter how hard i try and this is so frustrating. With condi, i have no issues doing dmg to these classes and sometimes even killing them. Also i have more defense with condi, by taking Carrion or Rabid Amulets.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

>

> Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

>

 

The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

 

With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

 

There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

[Ragnar.4257]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

> >

> > Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

> >

>

> The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

>

> With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

>

> There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

 

I entirely agree that condi stacks tend to come from badly telegraphed or functionally un-avoidable 111111 attacks.

 

But that isn't the point OP was making.

 

He was suggesting that because you can apply conditions and then "wait for the opponent to die" that that somehow makes them stronger.

 

My point was that **_that particular aspect_** of conditions does not make them any stronger.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

> > >

> > > Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

> > >

> >

> > The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

> >

> > With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

> >

> > There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

>

> I entirely agree that condi stacks tend to come from badly telegraphed or functionally un-avoidable 111111 attacks.

>

> But that isn't the point OP was making.

>

> He was suggesting that because you can apply conditions and then "wait for the opponent to die" that that somehow makes them stronger.

>

> My point was that **_that particular aspect_** of conditions does not make them any stronger.

 

I see. Fair enough.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

> >

> > Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

> >

>

> The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

>

> With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

>

> There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

 

Sorry, but that's just not true, though people love to say it is. I gave specific examples previously. Here are a few more. Do you stand in symbols just because the guardian is power guard? How about renegade? Do you stand in those if they aren't condi? How telegraphed is nade kit? How many examples do you need?

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

> > >

> > > Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

> > >

> >

> > The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

> >

> > With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

> >

> > There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

>

> Sorry, but that's just not true, though people love to say it is. I gave specific examples previously. Here are a few more. Do you stand in symbols just because the guardian is power guard? How about renegade? Do you stand in those if they aren't condi? How telegraphed is nade kit? How many examples do you need?

 

It is true, though for some reason condi players love to say it isnt (seriously, dont you guys want your builds to be more fun to play as well?). If I recall, your "examples" failed to prove your point entirely. Symbols or Renegade: Fields dont do *nearly* as much damage as condi. You can actually stand in them and not die, which a lot of players do. Those fields are more akin to summons than the condi death fields. Grenade Kit's burst damage is telegraphed, yes. Less so in melee range, because while it has a 0.5 second cast time (Which is enough), its animation is *very* subtle. Should probably be made more visible. And to answer your question, itd be a start if you had actually *1* example. So far youve failed to provide even that.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> In short you prefer taking all the damages in one go instead of taking them over time with some extra time to react to them. Just tell yourself that if you had eaten the skill of a power build you would have been down instantly instead of X seconds later. Is it really more fun to think that all it took the power build to kill you is that one skill because you already used your block/evade/invuln and now that it's done it's done?

>

> There is plenty of way to deal with condi, if anything condi is more forgiving than power. If your build struggle against condi then it just mean that condi are the "scizor" to your "paper" build that work well against "rock".

 

problem with condi build is that before condi build also supposed to take precision, but now it's not aquired and can choose tanky stats also do burst condi damage, while power build requires 3 stats, power precision and ferocity, and most condi skills land easily.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > > I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

> > > >

> > > > Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

> > >

> > > With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

> > >

> > > There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

> >

> > Sorry, but that's just not true, though people love to say it is. I gave specific examples previously. Here are a few more. Do you stand in symbols just because the guardian is power guard? How about renegade? Do you stand in those if they aren't condi? How telegraphed is nade kit? How many examples do you need?

>

> It is true, though for some reason condi players love to say it isnt (seriously, dont you guys want your builds to be more fun to play as well?). If I recall, your "examples" failed to prove your point entirely. Symbols or Renegade: Fields dont do *nearly* as much damage as condi. You can actually stand in them and not die, which a lot of players do. Those fields are more akin to summons than the condi death fields. Grenade Kit's burst damage is telegraphed, yes. Less so in melee range, because while it has a 0.5 second cast time (Which is enough), its animation is *very* subtle. Should probably be made more visible. And to answer your question, itd be a start if you had actually *1* example. So far youve failed to provide even that.

 

Whatever you say, champ. I disagree.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > In short you prefer taking all the damages in one go instead of taking them over time with some extra time to react to them. Just tell yourself that if you had eaten the skill of a power build you would have been down instantly instead of X seconds later. Is it really more fun to think that all it took the power build to kill you is that one skill because you already used your block/evade/invuln and now that it's done it's done?

> >

> > There is plenty of way to deal with condi, if anything condi is more forgiving than power. If your build struggle against condi then it just mean that condi are the "scizor" to your "paper" build that work well against "rock".

>

> problem with condi build is that before condi build also supposed to take precision, but now it's not aquired and can choose tanky stats also do burst condi damage, while power build requires 3 stats, power precision and ferocity, and most condi skills land easily.

 

Really? What tanky stats can you take without precision in pvp?

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > In short you prefer taking all the damages in one go instead of taking them over time with some extra time to react to them. Just tell yourself that if you had eaten the skill of a power build you would have been down instantly instead of X seconds later. Is it really more fun to think that all it took the power build to kill you is that one skill because you already used your block/evade/invuln and now that it's done it's done?

> > >

> > > There is plenty of way to deal with condi, if anything condi is more forgiving than power. If your build struggle against condi then it just mean that condi are the "scizor" to your "paper" build that work well against "rock".

> >

> > problem with condi build is that before condi build also supposed to take precision, but now it's not aquired and can choose tanky stats also do burst condi damage, while power build requires 3 stats, power precision and ferocity, and most condi skills land easily.

>

> Really? What tanky stats can you take without precision in pvp?

 

Out of 9 amulets with condition damage 7 have precision and the last 2 have just as much vitality than any random power amulet. Most of the "condi" amulets are in fact hybrids with both power and precision. The defensive stats argument is an empty one in sPvP.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > In short you prefer taking all the damages in one go instead of taking them over time with some extra time to react to them. Just tell yourself that if you had eaten the skill of a power build you would have been down instantly instead of X seconds later. Is it really more fun to think that all it took the power build to kill you is that one skill because you already used your block/evade/invuln and now that it's done it's done?

> > >

> > > There is plenty of way to deal with condi, if anything condi is more forgiving than power. If your build struggle against condi then it just mean that condi are the "scizor" to your "paper" build that work well against "rock".

> >

> > problem with condi build is that before condi build also supposed to take precision, but now it's not aquired and can choose tanky stats also do burst condi damage, while power build requires 3 stats, power precision and ferocity, and most condi skills land easily.

>

> Really? What tanky stats can you take without precision in pvp?

 

Carrion is one of the more sustainable stats in PvP

also sage

and Rabid been the supposed "glass" condi stats also have very high 900 toughness.

while demolisher barely does any damage now with only 500 toughness to boot.

 

condition builds only require condition damage to function, while power requires 3 stats consist of power/precision/ferocity

precision on condition build is only a bonus that matters little.

If toughness/vitality/condition damage exists in pvp, all condition build will switch to it with very little compromise in DPS.

[Tayga.3192]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> If toughness/vitality/condition damage exists in pvp, all condition build will switch to it with very little compromise in DPS.

 

Thankfully dire and trailblazer don't exist in pvp, lol

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > In short you prefer taking all the damages in one go instead of taking them over time with some extra time to react to them. Just tell yourself that if you had eaten the skill of a power build you would have been down instantly instead of X seconds later. Is it really more fun to think that all it took the power build to kill you is that one skill because you already used your block/evade/invuln and now that it's done it's done?

> > > >

> > > > There is plenty of way to deal with condi, if anything condi is more forgiving than power. If your build struggle against condi then it just mean that condi are the "scizor" to your "paper" build that work well against "rock".

> > >

> > > problem with condi build is that before condi build also supposed to take precision, but now it's not aquired and can choose tanky stats also do burst condi damage, while power build requires 3 stats, power precision and ferocity, and most condi skills land easily.

> >

> > Really? What tanky stats can you take without precision in pvp?

>

> Carrion is one of the more sustainable stats in PvP

> also sage

> and Rabid been the supposed "glass" condi stats also have very high 900 toughness.

> while demolisher barely does any damage now with only 500 toughness to boot.

>

> condition builds only require condition damage to function, while power requires 3 stats consist of power/precision/ferocity

> precision on condition build is only a bonus that matters little.

> If toughness/vitality/condition damage exists in pvp, all condition build will switch to it with very little compromise in DPS.

 

Sage gives as much power as it gives condition damage

sage amulet? cough cough Valkyrie or avater if that still exists

sorry to say but every condi amulet is forced to take loads of power damage anyways, I was happy with deadshot amulet. Advantage of power is that you can afford to give up HP for more damage, condi builds CAN NOT do it. Power has a choice of hp or damage, condi does not have this choice.

you have things like sinister where you give up 30% hp for 10% more dmg.

[Lighter.5631]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > In short you prefer taking all the damages in one go instead of taking them over time with some extra time to react to them. Just tell yourself that if you had eaten the skill of a power build you would have been down instantly instead of X seconds later. Is it really more fun to think that all it took the power build to kill you is that one skill because you already used your block/evade/invuln and now that it's done it's done?

> > > > >

> > > > > There is plenty of way to deal with condi, if anything condi is more forgiving than power. If your build struggle against condi then it just mean that condi are the "scizor" to your "paper" build that work well against "rock".

> > > >

> > > > problem with condi build is that before condi build also supposed to take precision, but now it's not aquired and can choose tanky stats also do burst condi damage, while power build requires 3 stats, power precision and ferocity, and most condi skills land easily.

> > >

> > > Really? What tanky stats can you take without precision in pvp?

> >

> > Carrion is one of the more sustainable stats in PvP

> > also sage

> > and Rabid been the supposed "glass" condi stats also have very high 900 toughness.

> > while demolisher barely does any damage now with only 500 toughness to boot.

> >

> > condition builds only require condition damage to function, while power requires 3 stats consist of power/precision/ferocity

> > precision on condition build is only a bonus that matters little.

> > If toughness/vitality/condition damage exists in pvp, all condition build will switch to it with very little compromise in DPS.

>

> Sage gives as much power as it gives condition damage

> sage amulet? cough cough Valkyrie or avater if that still exists

> sorry to say but every condi amulet is forced to take loads of power damage anyways, I was happy with deadshot amulet. Advantage of power is that you can afford to give up HP for more damage, condi builds CAN NOT do it. Power has a choice of hp or damage, condi does not have this choice.

> you have things like sinister where you give up 30% hp for 10% more dmg.

 

You are not staying with the topic

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > @"Lighter.5631" said:

> > > > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > > > > In short you prefer taking all the damages in one go instead of taking them over time with some extra time to react to them. Just tell yourself that if you had eaten the skill of a power build you would have been down instantly instead of X seconds later. Is it really more fun to think that all it took the power build to kill you is that one skill because you already used your block/evade/invuln and now that it's done it's done?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > There is plenty of way to deal with condi, if anything condi is more forgiving than power. If your build struggle against condi then it just mean that condi are the "scizor" to your "paper" build that work well against "rock".

> > > > >

> > > > > problem with condi build is that before condi build also supposed to take precision, but now it's not aquired and can choose tanky stats also do burst condi damage, while power build requires 3 stats, power precision and ferocity, and most condi skills land easily.

> > > >

> > > > Really? What tanky stats can you take without precision in pvp?

> > >

> > > Carrion is one of the more sustainable stats in PvP

> > > also sage

> > > and Rabid been the supposed "glass" condi stats also have very high 900 toughness.

> > > while demolisher barely does any damage now with only 500 toughness to boot.

> > >

> > > condition builds only require condition damage to function, while power requires 3 stats consist of power/precision/ferocity

> > > precision on condition build is only a bonus that matters little.

> > > If toughness/vitality/condition damage exists in pvp, all condition build will switch to it with very little compromise in DPS.

> >

> > Sage gives as much power as it gives condition damage

> > sage amulet? cough cough Valkyrie or avater if that still exists

> > sorry to say but every condi amulet is forced to take loads of power damage anyways, I was happy with deadshot amulet. Advantage of power is that you can afford to give up HP for more damage, condi builds CAN NOT do it. Power has a choice of hp or damage, condi does not have this choice.

> > you have things like sinister where you give up 30% hp for 10% more dmg.

>

> You are not staying with the topic

 

Seems like he directly refuted your claim. I guess you aren't staying with the topic either? Naturally, since it's nonsense to begin with. Condi is fine. In fact, it's pretty weak right now, mostly for the reasons Leonidrex laid out. Where you see an unfair advantage, the reality is that they took away the tanky stats from PvP leaving only the disadvantage of having to use cleansable damage over time with the same defensive stats available to power builds. That's why condi builds have to go hybrid: First, they have no choice, and second they deal terrible damage unless the build is ridiculously overtuned...which seems to be only for power builds right now.

[Shao.7236]

> @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > > I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

> > > >

> > > > Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

> > > >

> > >

> > > The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

> > >

> > > With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

> > >

> > > There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

> >

> > Sorry, but that's just not true, though people love to say it is. I gave specific examples previously. Here are a few more. Do you stand in symbols just because the guardian is power guard? How about renegade? Do you stand in those if they aren't condi? How telegraphed is nade kit? How many examples do you need?

>

> It is true, though for some reason condi players love to say it isnt (seriously, dont you guys want your builds to be more fun to play as well?). If I recall, your "examples" failed to prove your point entirely. Symbols or Renegade: Fields dont do *nearly* as much damage as condi. You can actually stand in them and not die, which a lot of players do. Those fields are more akin to summons than the condi death fields. Grenade Kit's burst damage is telegraphed, yes. Less so in melee range, because while it has a 0.5 second cast time (Which is enough), its animation is *very* subtle. Should probably be made more visible. And to answer your question, itd be a start if you had actually *1* example. So far youve failed to provide even that.

 

Nade kit is not telegraphed, it's the same recycled animation with little tell whether you're going to barrage or faceroll the entire skillbar.

 

With people exploiting range with jumps, stealth, big mobility skills, cc spam is the only way to discourage the user from keeping grenades coming in, this whole entire thing is an easy skill sink bait for engineers. You're forced to eat all the damage otherwise, only hope is to notice in a split second that he's pulling the grenade animation while not holding the grenade kit.

 

Deathstrike which is stupid fast and desyncs all the time is more telegraphed than that.

[Burnfall.9573]

> @"WillPaharu.4837" said:

> I do not think condition runes and sigils should exist in PvP. All a player does is use one skill, and then, if their target has already used their condi clense, they can just wait for the damage to kill said opponent.

 

+1

 

i do not think they should exist neither in wvw. In addition, why are condition runes and its sigils are accessible to non-condition role Professions to begin with?

 

-Professions such as; Mesmer, Guardian, Warrior should be restricted of condition runes/sigils period!!-

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Shao.7236" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said:

> > > > > I don't know why players keep posting this nonsense that condi is "fire and forget" while power is "active".

> > > > >

> > > > > Both power and condi attacks have to hit the target, and apply X amount of damage. Condi attacks don't do any more damage just because they happen over time. It doesn't "continue" to do damage passively, you've already taken the damage, you've already been hit. It's just a delayed arrival.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The difference lies in where power damage comes from, and where condi damage comes from. Power damage is typically frontloaded into telegraphed, easily avoided skills. Things like Eviscerate, like Shackling Wave, like Heartseeker even. This means that just by using active defenses like block or evades, you can avoid the vast majority of power damage.

> > > >

> > > > With condi, its not quite so easy. Condi application tends to fall into 3 categories. 1: instant skills. These can obviously not be avoided. 2: pulsing fields. These require you to leave the field entirely, or take likewise unavoidable damage. Quite often that would entail leaving the point and losing by default. Also you often take 1 tick even if you leave the field. And 3, and the worst offender: On-X effects. These are effects that say things like "when you crit/when you hit an enemy, apply X condition for Y seconds". Things like the passive of virtue 1 on Guardian, Deadly Ambition, Venoms, etc., etc. These essentially turn *any* hit into the equivalent of the telegraphed power hit. In order to avoid this damage, youd need to dodge 100% of their attacks, which is obviously just not possible.

> > > >

> > > > There is a reason condi cleanse is absolutely *mandatory* on every build, and damage resistance is not. Now granted, Condi currently isnt very good, precisely because of condi cleanse. You will be hit for sure, but you can just negate it afterwards. But thats not good design. Its not interesting for anyone involved. It stifles build diversity because you always have to bring condi cleanse ontop of any active defenses you have anyway, and its a boring playstyle for both sides. Id say, change condi cleanses to only remove impairing conditions (weaken, cripple, immobilise, etc. etc.), then change condi application to be more active and avoidable, and condi damage to be more appropriate.

> > >

> > > Sorry, but that's just not true, though people love to say it is. I gave specific examples previously. Here are a few more. Do you stand in symbols just because the guardian is power guard? How about renegade? Do you stand in those if they aren't condi? How telegraphed is nade kit? How many examples do you need?

> >

> > It is true, though for some reason condi players love to say it isnt (seriously, dont you guys want your builds to be more fun to play as well?). If I recall, your "examples" failed to prove your point entirely. Symbols or Renegade: Fields dont do *nearly* as much damage as condi. You can actually stand in them and not die, which a lot of players do. Those fields are more akin to summons than the condi death fields. Grenade Kit's burst damage is telegraphed, yes. Less so in melee range, because while it has a 0.5 second cast time (Which is enough), its animation is *very* subtle. Should probably be made more visible. And to answer your question, itd be a start if you had actually *1* example. So far youve failed to provide even that.

>

> Nade kit is not telegraphed, it's the same recycled animation with little tell whether you're going to barrage or faceroll the entire skillbar.

>

 

It is telegraphed. I have however also *just* said that its animation is too subtle and should probably changed.

 

> With people exploiting range with jumps, stealth, big mobility skills, cc spam is the only way to discourage the user from keeping grenades coming in, this whole entire thing is an easy skill sink bait for engineers. You're forced to eat all the damage otherwise, only hope is to notice in a split second that he's pulling the grenade animation while not holding the grenade kit.

>

 

I have no idea what youre trying to say here. If youre trying to say "Grenade kit is easy to use", yeah Im gonna have to call bull. Its not. Thats part of why it wasnt used for a long time, its not terribly reliable.

 

> Deathstrike which is stupid fast and desyncs all the time is more telegraphed than that.

 

Only because of the animation which, *again*, I do agree could use a change.