Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > OK it's bad ... but swapping elements is STILL a class mechanic. This isn't up for debate. Any argument otherwise is absurd. > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's that bad and you don't like it ... hey, class choices, you got em. > > > > > > > > > > Well like i said earlier, what constitutes as a fully fledged out professon mechanic for EVERY other class is not present on ele. > > > > > > > > I mean, you can have that opinion. Clearly, it's not relevant to how the game works though. I mean, I'm just going to go back to my original point; if class mechanics are dissatisfying to you from a gameplay perspective, why aren't you choosing a different class? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's relevent enough for the developers to make the change for core revenant so I would disagree. > > > > See, this is the problem ... ele HAS a class mechanic so the premise it doesn't have a class mechanic to justify ANYTHING a person wants to suggest to change the class is just wrong. It's wrong. > > > > I get you think that the class mechanic is terrible ... but it exists. So if you want to make a thread that core ele class mechanic is garbage and needs to be fixed, that's awesome ... because it's not a lie. > > > > > > You are saying nothing every thing you are posting is to stop ppl from talking about things. I'm just asking people to base their class change suggestions on things that are true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > OK it's bad ... but swapping elements is STILL a class mechanic. This isn't up for debate. Any argument otherwise is absurd. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If it's that bad and you don't like it ... hey, class choices, you got em. > > > > > > > > > > > > Well like i said earlier, what constitutes as a fully fledged out professon mechanic for EVERY other class is not present on ele. > > > > > > > > > > I mean, you can have that opinion. Clearly, it's not relevant to how the game works though. I mean, I'm just going to go back to my original point; if class mechanics are dissatisfying to you from a gameplay perspective, why aren't you choosing a different class? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's relevent enough for the developers to make the change for core revenant so I would disagree. > > > > > > See, this is the problem ... ele HAS a class mechanic so the premise it doesn't have a class mechanic to justify ANYTHING a person wants to suggest to change the class is just wrong. It's wrong. > > > > > > I get you think that the class mechanic is terrible ... but it exists. So if you want to make a thread that core ele class mechanic is garbage and needs to be fixed, that's awesome ... because it's not a lie. > > > > > > > > > > You are saying nothing every thing you are posting is to stop ppl from talking about things. > > I'm just asking people to base their class change suggestions on things that are true. No your not your just shooting down ideals and thoughts in a means to stop ppl from coming up with there own ideals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > But it is and you do not want ppl to talk about it at all or realty any thing. > > > > OP was VERY clear what the topic of the thread is. This isn't up for debate that the topic is simply about OP claiming Ele not having a class mechanic. > > > > > > It is though about core ele vs weaver vs tempest they even name this in there post about pve and doing dps. Ele not having some level of DPS isn't a problem and if it is, it's not necessarily fixed by 'giving' ele a class mechanic ... because they already have one. Again, your post is an example of the lack of truth in this thread ... saying something not true to justify something that is wanted. This whole thread is just a ruse to get more DPS, etc... on Ele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > But it is and you do not want ppl to talk about it at all or realty any thing. > > > > > > OP was VERY clear what the topic of the thread is. This isn't up for debate that the topic is simply about OP claiming Ele not having a class mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > It is though about core ele vs weaver vs tempest they even name this in there post about pve and doing dps. > > Ele not having some level of DPS isn't a problem and if it is, it's not necessarily fixed by 'giving' ele a class mechanic ... because they already have one. > > Again, your post is an example of the dishonesty here ... saying something not true to justify something you want. This whole thread is just a ruse to get more DPS on Ele. > But it dose have a dps problem as core ele dose less dps then tempest and weaver odds are less dps then what ever else is coming up. This cant be fix all due to no class mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > But it is and you do not want ppl to talk about it at all or realty any thing. > > > > > > > > OP was VERY clear what the topic of the thread is. This isn't up for debate that the topic is simply about OP claiming Ele not having a class mechanic. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It is though about core ele vs weaver vs tempest they even name this in there post about pve and doing dps. > > > > Ele not having some level of DPS isn't a problem and if it is, it's not necessarily fixed by 'giving' ele a class mechanic ... because they already have one. > > > > Again, your post is an example of the dishonesty here ... saying something not true to justify something you want. This whole thread is just a ruse to get more DPS on Ele. > > > > But it dose have a dps problem as core ele dose less dps then tempest and weaver That makes no sense. NO class in this game is balanced by DPS to it's especs or any other class so there isn't a reason to expect it for ele and it's especs. It's not a problem. At least we are starting to get some honesty here, even if it's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > OK it's bad ... but swapping elements is STILL a class mechanic. This isn't up for debate. Any argument otherwise is absurd. > > > > > > > > > > If it's that bad and you don't like it ... hey, class choices, you got em. > > > > > > > > Well like i said earlier, what constitutes as a fully fledged out professon mechanic for EVERY other class is not present on ele. > > > > > > I mean, you can have that opinion. Clearly, it's not relevant to how the game works though. I mean, I'm just going to go back to my original point; if class mechanics are dissatisfying to you from a gameplay perspective, why aren't you choosing a different class? > > > > > > > > > > It's relevent enough for the developers to make the change for core revenant so I would disagree. > > See, this is the problem ... ele HAS a class mechanic so the premise it doesn't have a class mechanic to justify ANYTHING a person wants to suggest to change the class is just wrong. It's wrong. > > I get you think that the class mechanic is terrible ... but it exists. So if you want to make a thread that core ele class mechanic is garbage and needs to be fixed, that's awesome ... because it's not a lie. This whole thread is based on something that is NOT TRUE. No amount of debate will change the fact that ele DOES HAVE a class mechanic, so you CAN'T argue a change based on it NOT having a class mechanic. That's nonsense. > > No, it's not that I think it's terrible. I just don't think it hit's all the requirement for being a profession mechanic. It's like if mesmer had clones and illusions as its profession mechanic, but no shatter skills. Or if rev only had legend swap and energy, but no ancient echo. Or if thief had initiative and no steal. Or if ranger had a pet, but no pet skills. Or if Necro had no shroud and just necro weapon skills. Or if warrior had no burst skill and just weapon skills. Or guardian having only guard weapon skills and no virtues. Or engineer having kits but no tool belt skill. Or ele having attunements and no overload... oh wait. Attunements are weapon skills. It is not a mechanic if it is your weapon skills and its unavoidable to use. Every other profession I can play without using it's mechanic if I so choose. Saying attunements is a mechanic is like saying every other classes weapon skills are their mechanic. It makes no sense. Just because rev uses a hammer that is ranged over guard and wars melee hammers does not make the rev hammer a class mechanic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 I'll say it again, the nature of a classses weapons skills does not make it a class mechanic. That's just the style of it's weapon skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > I'll say it again, the nature of a classses weapons skills does not make it a class mechanic. That's just the style of it's weapon skills. OK. I won't argue your opinion and why you have it; I can respect your reasons even if I disagree. What's relevant here is how the game works and why it works that way, even if the result is the current game state. I really can't agree with the reasons you have provided for why this isn't a proper class mechanic. The concept of having 8 effective weapons that give you 4 meaningfully different play themes to swap between in real time ... that's a pretty great concept. You guys are just too hung up on the fact that it's implemented similarly to a weapon swap so you feel it's really easy dismiss as 'not real'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 Well it seems pointless to keep responding to that. Any core ele needs its own class mechanic so it can be balanced with in its elite spec. As long as the elite spec. simply get what ever the core class gets there is no way the core class can realty get buffed with out simply making the elite spec. a better chose. Think of it like a kind of red queen rule (its not the best way of using it but i think it fits) as long as core ele gets a +1 the elite spec gets a +1. When core ele gets a -1 the elite spec get a -1. If the elite spec get a +1 core ele gets +0. This would of been ok if anet did not nerf core ele to fix the elite spec over preforming but that is where we are now and maybe we will see the same thing for the other eleit spec to come. So the ideal is to give core ele its own thing that is lost when using an elite spec. Most of the core classes have something that there elite spec. (not all of them but the "best" core classes have them on some level). All core classes should come with something that there elite spec. do not have it is the only way to fix the current balancing of the game or your always going to have something over nerfed or over powered making every thing more complex then needed. I personally like the suggestion giving core ele its minor traits for atuments lines all of the time. I would also like to see the "doable when in atument effect" to always be on. This will not effect weaver dps at all nor will it make tempest support better (it will also not effect the EoD eleit spec too). If its too strong then it can be pulled back some but i realty do not see how this will make core ele stronger then weaver or tempest out side of letting it play more of an general roll as what core classes should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > Any core ele needs its own class mechanic so it can be balanced with in its elite spec. That's _not true_. EVEN in the case where core ele should be balanced with it's elite specs (it doesn't), Core ele can be balanced with it's elite specs without having it's own unique class mechanics. >a better chose. That's simply a matter of whatever criteria you use to make that choice. You want everything to work so all options work in your criteria. Anet can't make the game for you that way. They don't need to .. that's why we have variety in the options we are given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At some point you got to realize its not enofe to have 2 more "swaps" the other classes there needs to be something there a real reason to swap and right now there not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe ... but that's NOT a lacking mechanic problem. This thread is NOT a complaint about balance. Whether you think it's enough or not or that there isn't a real reason to swap ... is irrelevant. That's just dependent on how YOU view and play the class. Anet can't cater the game around how you think the game should work. If you don't like how there isn't a reason for you to swap elements in Core ele ... don't play core ele if how the class mechanic works is part of your class choice criteria. That's not that bad answer you think it is ... that's THE answer for anyone making a class choice based on whatever criteria they are using. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Swapping elements IS a real class mechanic, just like how many other classes have a swapping concept in their mechanics as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That not a question of balance its a question of making a mechanic worth something ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's a matter of personal preference and opinion about how YOU play the class ... and as long as Anet can't change the game to cater to how everyone thinks the game should work, it's not going to change because you don't think it's worth using. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fire should burn how is that a personal preference!? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you are asking me. Fire should burn? Answer: Sure. Is this a trick question or? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok you DO agree. > > > > > > > > > > I think fire skill should have burning tide to them air skill should have a "shock" or "blowing" effect to them water skill should be a "wet" and "chilling" effect and earth needs a "blungen" and "dusty" effect to them. All skills not just the 15 sec cd big hit skills but all of the 1 skills. And the ele core should get the most out of these effects then say tempest and weaver. Kind of a you are the trait lines you chose to use as a core ele. Kind of like the old ele from gw1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to be clear here because I don't appreciate the ruse that I'm somehow agreeing with your point of view based on some nonsensical questions that are unrelated to the topic. None of this has anything to do with what we are talking about and whether I agree with this or not is irrelevant to the point in question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet can't cater to how you or anyone else thinks the game should work. Swapping elements IS the class mechanic for ele. Based on those things, ele DOES have a class mechanic and it doesn't need to change because it doesn't work the way you think it should. These are not debatable statements. They are TRUE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have a problem with how ele performs, that's fine, but that's NOT what we are talking about here. The lack of a profession mechanic (which isn't a problem on ele in the _first_ place) is not necessarily related to how that class performs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But every effect is balancing but we are talking about ele core vs tempest vs weaver. You may want to reread the op. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm aware of what the OP said ... and it doesn't change anything I've said because I'm not someone that replies in threads without reading what they are about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet can't cater to how you or anyone else thinks the game should work. Swapping elements IS the class mechanic for ele. Based on those things, ele DOES have a class mechanic and it doesn't need to change because it doesn't work the way you think it should. Therefore, the answer here is to exercise class choices you have available to you based on whatever criteria you want to use to make that choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to talk about how ele performs vs. it's especs, that _can't_ be a '_ele doesn't have a true class mechanic_' problem because that statement is FALSE. Do not try to pretend that lack of balance on ele is because it lacks a class mechanic ... because it DOESN'T. > > > > > > > > > > > > But.... tempest and weaver have the same mechanic + there own. > > > > > > > > > > OK ... that doesn't mean Ele DOESN'T have a class mechanic. My point of view should be pretty clear at this point so if you haven't figured it out, you just aren't paying attention. You can't talk about changing a class based on a false claim. That's nonsense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > It means ele core has no reason for existing if other version of it gets the same effect but only to get an added one. > > > > > > Except that's not true. Core ele plays different than it's especs ... and that's MORE than enough reason for it to exist. In fact, Anet says that's the primary reason for the existence of the class and it's especs. They are just variations on a theme. > > > > > > > Core ele plays the same as tempest it even play close if not the same as weaver with a bit of a delay in-between swaps and if you sit in an atument longer then 4 sec you effectively play the same as a core ele any way. > > > > The only thing the elite spec got was power creep over core ele and anet has done nothing more then to nerf core ele to make tempest and weaver not op vs other classes. Most tempest and weaver run staff or scepter they dont run there elite spec weapons at all because there no need to and they are nothing more then ele +1. > > What are you talking about? Sword is a popular weapon for weaver and weaver plays nothing like core ele. You could also argue that tempest adds some stuff thats different from core ele such as overloaded and stuff like the shouts rebound and such no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > So you went off talking about how i am not the player base ... > > > > > > > > No, that's _not true_ (maybe I need to trademark this ... what do you guys think?) > > > > > > > > I said you are only a PART of the playerbase, so you can't make blanket statements about what the playerbase thinks should change for ele. Therefore, Anet can't change the game to cater to how you think ele should work. > > > > > > > > >It is your the attker here i am the defer sry > > > > > > > > No, that's _not true_. You were the FIRST person to respond to ME in this thread, seemingly because you don't think having choice is a reasonable approach to finding satisfaction with the game. Being apologetic doesn't give you a license to say things that aren't true. > > > > > > > > >So you cant do any thing for the core ele out side of giving the class its own mechanic. > > > > > > > > No, that's _not true_. Making the mechanic that ALREADY exists on ele and changing it so it's unique only to ele is NOT the ONLY way to 'do anything' for it. That's nonsense. > > > > > > > > > > > You made the point that it was not important to point out most of the player base dose not use these forms it is. > > > > No, that's _not true_. Furthermore, it's irrelevant as well. > > > You went after the op. > > > > That's _not true_ and absurd ... suggesting he exercise choice is CERTAINLY not 'going after' the op. > > > > > Please tell me why its ok for core ele not to be part of the meta in any place in gw2 > > > > Because the game isn't designed around what is meta, it's designed around playing what you want. > > > > Wait what most of the ele player base for sure dose not use these forms lol. > > You told him to play another class when they made a suggestion about ele core. > > Its a benchmark for if a class is doing well or not. Yes there always going to be max min players but you still can push out something in that environment that is not min max but if you cant even do that there is something wrong. Its not about being the best class with best numbers but its being able to show up at a reasonable level and core ele simply dose not. Personally reason why tempest and weaver eventaully are prefered over core is cause more mobility access to damage more gen of might etc. With heat sink for instance combined with overload fire and the shout you gen quite a bit of might and share some too with others. Personally i think its the same reason why core nec vs reaper and scourge why reaper and scourge would be taken maybe in the past. reaper has access to better skills with access to might better generation of vuln and might and the tools are upgraded. its not necessarily ele lacks tools its power creep. Anet has been working on making specs available and desireable, which is why at some point holo was the most desireable spec and scourge and firebrand and well a lot of others over core specs. Anet is trying to do something about it i think and i believe they are probably trying ot f ind a way to make specs more desireable, but they probably ran into some issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Mini Crinny.6190" said: > > @"Zeesh.7286" said: > > Can someone give a tldr? I'm a bit intimidated by 2 full pages given that the 3rd page makes no sense to me as to what even is being discussed... > > Yes > > on one side ele has a mechanic > > on another side ele has no mechanic ...and the other side claiming ele has no mechanic somehow tries to argue "it has no mechanic, because the core class got nerfed in the past". Safe to say the argument behind his claim is compeletely disconnected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 11, 2021 Share Posted February 11, 2021 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At some point you got to realize its not enofe to have 2 more "swaps" the other classes there needs to be something there a real reason to swap and right now there not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Maybe ... but that's NOT a lacking mechanic problem. This thread is NOT a complaint about balance. Whether you think it's enough or not or that there isn't a real reason to swap ... is irrelevant. That's just dependent on how YOU view and play the class. Anet can't cater the game around how you think the game should work. If you don't like how there isn't a reason for you to swap elements in Core ele ... don't play core ele if how the class mechanic works is part of your class choice criteria. That's not that bad answer you think it is ... that's THE answer for anyone making a class choice based on whatever criteria they are using. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Swapping elements IS a real class mechanic, just like how many other classes have a swapping concept in their mechanics as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That not a question of balance its a question of making a mechanic worth something ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, that's a matter of personal preference and opinion about how YOU play the class ... and as long as Anet can't change the game to cater to how everyone thinks the game should work, it's not going to change because you don't think it's worth using. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fire should burn how is that a personal preference!? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't know what you are asking me. Fire should burn? Answer: Sure. Is this a trick question or? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok you DO agree. > > > > > > > > > > > I think fire skill should have burning tide to them air skill should have a "shock" or "blowing" effect to them water skill should be a "wet" and "chilling" effect and earth needs a "blungen" and "dusty" effect to them. All skills not just the 15 sec cd big hit skills but all of the 1 skills. And the ele core should get the most out of these effects then say tempest and weaver. Kind of a you are the trait lines you chose to use as a core ele. Kind of like the old ele from gw1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm going to be clear here because I don't appreciate the ruse that I'm somehow agreeing with your point of view based on some nonsensical questions that are unrelated to the topic. None of this has anything to do with what we are talking about and whether I agree with this or not is irrelevant to the point in question. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet can't cater to how you or anyone else thinks the game should work. Swapping elements IS the class mechanic for ele. Based on those things, ele DOES have a class mechanic and it doesn't need to change because it doesn't work the way you think it should. These are not debatable statements. They are TRUE. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you have a problem with how ele performs, that's fine, but that's NOT what we are talking about here. The lack of a profession mechanic (which isn't a problem on ele in the _first_ place) is not necessarily related to how that class performs. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But every effect is balancing but we are talking about ele core vs tempest vs weaver. You may want to reread the op. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm aware of what the OP said ... and it doesn't change anything I've said because I'm not someone that replies in threads without reading what they are about. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Anet can't cater to how you or anyone else thinks the game should work. Swapping elements IS the class mechanic for ele. Based on those things, ele DOES have a class mechanic and it doesn't need to change because it doesn't work the way you think it should. Therefore, the answer here is to exercise class choices you have available to you based on whatever criteria you want to use to make that choice. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you want to talk about how ele performs vs. it's especs, that _can't_ be a '_ele doesn't have a true class mechanic_' problem because that statement is FALSE. Do not try to pretend that lack of balance on ele is because it lacks a class mechanic ... because it DOESN'T. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But.... tempest and weaver have the same mechanic + there own. > > > > > > > > > > > > OK ... that doesn't mean Ele DOESN'T have a class mechanic. My point of view should be pretty clear at this point so if you haven't figured it out, you just aren't paying attention. You can't talk about changing a class based on a false claim. That's nonsense. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It means ele core has no reason for existing if other version of it gets the same effect but only to get an added one. > > > > > > > > Except that's not true. Core ele plays different than it's especs ... and that's MORE than enough reason for it to exist. In fact, Anet says that's the primary reason for the existence of the class and it's especs. They are just variations on a theme. > > > > > > > > > > Core ele plays the same as tempest it even play close if not the same as weaver with a bit of a delay in-between swaps and if you sit in an atument longer then 4 sec you effectively play the same as a core ele any way. > > > > > > The only thing the elite spec got was power creep over core ele and anet has done nothing more then to nerf core ele to make tempest and weaver not op vs other classes. Most tempest and weaver run staff or scepter they dont run there elite spec weapons at all because there no need to and they are nothing more then ele +1. > > > > What are you talking about? Sword is a popular weapon for weaver and weaver plays nothing like core ele. > > You could also argue that tempest adds some stuff thats different from core ele such as overloaded and stuff like the shouts rebound and such no? Tempest is different from core ele. However, it plays just like core ele in the sense that the core attunement swap mechanics are identical aside from the addition of the overload cooldown. By comparison, weaver's design alters the attunement swap mechanics in several ways: First, it has a 4s attunement swap cooldown compared to core/tempest's 10s. It also has a 4s cooldown before it can swap again, in contrast to core/tempest's 1.5s. Finally, there is weaver's signature dual elemental skills and attunement. I think it is fair to say that this changes the way the class plays significantly, specifically by altering the core mechanic of attunement swapping. In my opinion, that should be the goal at least some of the time when designing elite specs. But I think it's also a good idea to have elite specs like Tempest which play very similarly to their core counterparts. Some people really like the feel of their core class while others are looking for a fresh take on them. To resolve the issue of core vs. elite, I think they should consider giving core specs the elite spec treatment. Give core ele an exclusive set of heal/utility/elite. In place of an exclusive trait line, add some sort of benefits that apply only when 3 core trait lines are active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > I'll say it again, the nature of a classses weapons skills does not make it a class mechanic. That's just the style of it's weapon skills. It seemed to be more than enough of a mechanic pre HoT for elementalist to stand at the top. All in all, more than asking whether the profession have a mechanic or not, this is a very long thread about whether or not core elementalist need to be powercrept in order to stand up to it's e-specs. - The thing with _tempest_ is that the devs were kind enough to give the players the choice to use overload or not, making some players confused about whether or not there is a drawback. Good grief there is since tempest traits tend to encourage the player to actually use it's overload and thus lengthen it's stay within an attunment, indirectly weakening quite a few core traits that rely on frequent attunment swaping. - Weaver also have obvious drawbacks; Having all attunments sharing a 4s cool down drastically change the mechanic compared to core elementalist. Not even talking about the reduced flexibility due to the fact that swaping attunment is delayed for your off-hand skillset. Considering those points, I think it's fair to say that core elementalist's mechanic is unique enough to not need additional effects piled up on top of it. Maybe core elementalist is lacking balance wise, but that's another topic alltogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > I'll say it again, the nature of a classses weapons skills does not make it a class mechanic. That's just the style of it's weapon skills. > > It seemed to be more than enough of a mechanic pre HoT for elementalist to stand at the top. > > All in all, more than asking whether the profession have a mechanic or not, this is a very long thread about whether or not core elementalist need to be powercrept in order to stand up to it's e-specs. > - The thing with _tempest_ is that the devs were kind enough to give the players the choice to use overload or not, making some players confused about whether or not there is a drawback. Good grief there is since tempest traits tend to encourage the player to actually use it's overload and thus lengthen it's stay within an attunment, indirectly weakening quite a few core traits that rely on frequent attunment swaping. > - Weaver also have obvious drawbacks; Having all attunments sharing a 4s cool down drastically change the mechanic compared to core elementalist. Not even talking about the reduced flexibility due to the fact that swaping attunment is delayed for your off-hand skillset. > > Considering those points, I think it's fair to say that core elementalist's mechanic is unique enough to not need additional effects piled up on top of it. Maybe core elementalist is lacking balance wise, but that's another topic alltogether. ok, fair. But the inability of buffing core ele without buffing it's elite specs is near impossible because there is no actual tradeoff in accessability to core ele's skills or abilities or what have you. The only way I can think of is if they overhaul the elemental traitlines to be a lot stronger or universally usable (looking at you earth) and provide more, while toning down espec lines and (maybe) arcane. The e-spec traits are better than core traitlines and I never feel handicapped by only being able to take two core traitlines. The espec traits are just far better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > I'll say it again, the nature of a classses weapons skills does not make it a class mechanic. That's just the style of it's weapon skills. > > > > It seemed to be more than enough of a mechanic pre HoT for elementalist to stand at the top. > > > > All in all, more than asking whether the profession have a mechanic or not, this is a very long thread about whether or not core elementalist need to be powercrept in order to stand up to it's e-specs. > > - The thing with _tempest_ is that the devs were kind enough to give the players the choice to use overload or not, making some players confused about whether or not there is a drawback. Good grief there is since tempest traits tend to encourage the player to actually use it's overload and thus lengthen it's stay within an attunment, indirectly weakening quite a few core traits that rely on frequent attunment swaping. > > - Weaver also have obvious drawbacks; Having all attunments sharing a 4s cool down drastically change the mechanic compared to core elementalist. Not even talking about the reduced flexibility due to the fact that swaping attunment is delayed for your off-hand skillset. > > > > Considering those points, I think it's fair to say that core elementalist's mechanic is unique enough to not need additional effects piled up on top of it. Maybe core elementalist is lacking balance wise, but that's another topic alltogether. > > ok, fair. But the inability of buffing core ele without buffing it's elite specs is near impossible because there is no actual tradeoff in accessability to core ele's skills or abilities or what have you. That's true, but I don't see why that's a concern though. That statement also assumes Anet needs a way to buff ele without affecting especs at the same time. I don't think that's a good assumption either. I mean, we haven't seen much evidence from Anet in the history of game changes that suggests they won't make a change to core if it affects especs or vice versa ... so where does that assumption you are making come from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > @"Dadnir.5038" said: > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > I'll say it again, the nature of a classses weapons skills does not make it a class mechanic. That's just the style of it's weapon skills. > > > > > > It seemed to be more than enough of a mechanic pre HoT for elementalist to stand at the top. > > > > > > All in all, more than asking whether the profession have a mechanic or not, this is a very long thread about whether or not core elementalist need to be powercrept in order to stand up to it's e-specs. > > > - The thing with _tempest_ is that the devs were kind enough to give the players the choice to use overload or not, making some players confused about whether or not there is a drawback. Good grief there is since tempest traits tend to encourage the player to actually use it's overload and thus lengthen it's stay within an attunment, indirectly weakening quite a few core traits that rely on frequent attunment swaping. > > > - Weaver also have obvious drawbacks; Having all attunments sharing a 4s cool down drastically change the mechanic compared to core elementalist. Not even talking about the reduced flexibility due to the fact that swaping attunment is delayed for your off-hand skillset. > > > > > > Considering those points, I think it's fair to say that core elementalist's mechanic is unique enough to not need additional effects piled up on top of it. Maybe core elementalist is lacking balance wise, but that's another topic alltogether. > > > > ok, fair. But the inability of buffing core ele without buffing it's elite specs is near impossible because there is no actual tradeoff in accessability to core ele's skills or abilities or what have you. > > That's true, but I don't see why that's a concern though. > > That statement also assumes Anet needs a way to buff ele without affecting especs at the same time. I don't think that's a good assumption either. I mean, we haven't seen much evidence from Anet in the history of game changes that suggests they won't make a change to core if it affects especs or vice versa ... so where does that assumption you are making come from? > I mean core gurd is not bad due to its different set of F1-5 and there is a lot of room for it to update the class with out making DH and FB op (keep in mind gurd is there love child so it gets every thing first). You can kind of say the same for necro and mez even eng (all though just an f5 only is not that massive). That why ppl say core ele is lacking any thing of its own. When a tempest can just simply chose not to play as a tempest or went a weaver can simply chose to not play as a weaver (with a skill mind you). I am all for letting just core ele free swap with no gobble cd and tempest / weaver have a 3 sec delay in-between swaps (tempest would get overloade at 3 sec). That alone will not "fix" the problem but it would help by letting core ele get the effect of all of its atument all of the time (must like other core classes can where they can have 3 core classes trait lines working all of the time and not just during a state of the player has in that moment) would go a long way to making core ele a full class that it has lost after balance updates for tempest and weaver. This is a hidden balance for ele that not too many ppl talk about where atument lines do less out side of there given atument but other classes can get the full benefit of there core class trait line all of the time. I am just asking to carry that over to the core ele class but NOT tempest and weaver and what ever comes from EoD. An example it would be like wars ARMS mostly working when you have a sword but out side of holding a sword the ARMS trait line would only be 1/2 as effect. (keep in mind i do not know war just looking at it that it seems to be the "sword" line but it gives you effects outside of sword being your wepon chose.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadnir.5038 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > I am all for letting just core ele free swap with no gobble cd and tempest / weaver have a 3 sec delay in-between swaps (tempest would get overloade at 3 sec). Are you really suggesting to buff both tempest and weaver here? - ATM tempest can overload after 6s in an attunment down to 4s when traited. - Weaver have a 4s shared CD on it's attunment. As for core elementalist it need it's attunment's non shared CD in order to avoid stupidly OP abuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > I am all for letting just core ele free swap with no gobble cd and tempest / weaver have a 3 sec delay in-between swaps (tempest would get overloade at 3 sec). Hold on here ... your whole position is that ele needs it's own unique mechanic because it _lags_ the especs in performance. Now you're all in to things that widen that gap because suggesting there is no CD on ele swaps is massively broken. This is why I'm riding you so hard in this thread, because in the truth is that you simply want buffs and using untrue statements to justify it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > ok, fair. But the inability of buffing core ele without buffing it's elite specs is near impossible because there is no actual tradeoff in accessability to core ele's skills or abilities or what have you. > > That's true, but I don't see why that's a concern though. > > That statement also assumes Anet needs a way to buff ele without affecting especs at the same time. I don't think that's a good assumption either. I mean, we haven't seen much evidence from Anet in the history of game changes that suggests they won't make a change to core if it affects especs or vice versa ... so where does that assumption you are making come from? > Because Anet has been making efforts for the past few years to make core specs more viable and to combat powercreep, as well as slightly cater to players who do not own the expansions. Guard, Necro, Ranger, War have all decent core builds, and the rest of the professions are far better than ele. I've already pointed out revenant as it's core was mostly unusable but now it is possible to create competitive core builds in most game modes. I guess the problem withy ele's "mechanic" or lack there of, is that it doesn't account for elite specs and most likely wasn't designed with the route they went with especs in mind, due to its ingrained-ness with ele's weapon skills it's really hard to modify without destroying/unbalancing core weapon sets. The route they took with weaver is pretty extreme and I feel like the work and payoff for such a design is a little overboard and also presents a lot of balance issues within the game. Because of all the added skills to core weapon sets, the rest of the weapon set outside of dual skills needed to be adjusted in ways that only hurt core builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > ok, fair. But the inability of buffing core ele without buffing it's elite specs is near impossible because there is no actual tradeoff in accessability to core ele's skills or abilities or what have you. > > > > That's true, but I don't see why that's a concern though. > > > > That statement also assumes Anet needs a way to buff ele without affecting especs at the same time. I don't think that's a good assumption either. I mean, we haven't seen much evidence from Anet in the history of game changes that suggests they won't make a change to core if it affects especs or vice versa ... so where does that assumption you are making come from? > > > > Because Anet has been making efforts for the past few years to make core specs more viable and to combat powercreep, as well as slightly cater to players who do not own the expansions. So you're whole goal here is to prevent power creep (because I'm not going to argue core isn't viable enough) by giving ele a unique mechanic? That's suspect considering I JUST quoted you as saying core ele can't be buffed without affecting it's especs ... See how you are contradicting yourself there? You want to PREVENT power creep with this unique mechanic ... to BUFF core ele. I'm just going to let that simmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > I am all for letting just core ele free swap with no gobble cd and tempest / weaver have a 3 sec delay in-between swaps (tempest would get overloade at 3 sec). > > > Hold on here ... your whole position is that ele needs it's own unique mechanic because it _lags_ the especs in performance. Now you're all in to things that widen that gap because suggesting there is no CD on ele swaps is massively broken. This is why I'm riding you so hard in this thread, because in the truth is that you simply want buffs and using untrue statements to justify it. > > > > That would be an unique mechanic if they make it a 3 sec cd swap for tempest and weaver but not for ele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obtena.7952 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > I am all for letting just core ele free swap with no gobble cd and tempest / weaver have a 3 sec delay in-between swaps (tempest would get overloade at 3 sec). > > > > > > Hold on here ... your whole position is that ele needs it's own unique mechanic because it _lags_ the especs in performance. Now you're all in to things that widen that gap because suggesting there is no CD on ele swaps is massively broken. This is why I'm riding you so hard in this thread, because in the truth is that you simply want buffs and using untrue statements to justify it. > > > > > > > > > > That would be an unique mechanic if they make it a 3 sec cd swap for tempest and weaver but not for ele. Sure, but that has NOTHING to do with my point, so I will just repeat it. Your whole position is that ele needs it's own unique mechanic because it _lags_ the especs in performance but your suggestion here doesn't close that gap between ele and it's especs ... it makes that gap _larger_. That's why I'm saying you are being dishonest. You give a reason to make a change, then you make a suggestion for change that would result in the exact OPPOSITE of the reason you gave to make it. That's absurd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 13, 2021 Share Posted February 13, 2021 > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > I am all for letting just core ele free swap with no gobble cd and tempest / weaver have a 3 sec delay in-between swaps (tempest would get overloade at 3 sec). > > > > > > > > > Hold on here ... your whole position is that ele needs it's own unique mechanic because it _lags_ the especs in performance. Now you're all in to things that widen that gap because suggesting there is no CD on ele swaps is massively broken. This is why I'm riding you so hard in this thread, because in the truth is that you simply want buffs and using untrue statements to justify it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That would be an unique mechanic if they make it a 3 sec cd swap for tempest and weaver but not for ele. > > Sure, but that has NOTHING to do with my point, so I will just repeat it. > > Your whole position is that ele needs it's own unique mechanic because it _lags_ the especs in performance but your suggestion here doesn't close that gap between ele and it's especs ... it makes that gap _larger_. That's why I'm saying you are being dishonest. You give a reason to make a change, then you make a suggestion for change that would result in the exact OPPOSITE of the reason you gave to make it. That's absurd. Dishonest about what? How would making the cd between swaps not the swaps them self longer for tempest much like weaver (with out the cdr of the swap them self) make the gap between ele core and tempest bigger? How would letting core ele get full benefit from all of its atument trait lines all of the time and not just during the given atument make the gap bigger? Maybe your confused with my suggestion? Core ele needs its own unique mechanic and fast swaps would be a good start (something that it has now but tempest also has making it sadly non unique mechanic) but you need to give it an added effect on-top of that and that would be letting atument trait lines have full effect one of the major balancing factors other core class have over there elite spec. I am not talking about moving heaven and earth here i do not think anet will or can do such complex ideal to truly make core ele equal to its elite spec but you can put core ele on part with other core classes and there elite spec with small but significantly changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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