Crossroads.5174 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Greetings! I was wondering, is everybody happy with this "new" build that is becoming increasingly popular in ranked? In my opinion, it is a bit too cheesy, especially since DH is already a spec that can sometimes get away with playing greedy builds by having condi cleanse and block for free as class mechanics (and heavy armor). Sure, DH gets revealed as soon as the enemy activates (is caught in, actually) the trap, but at that point, good luck chasing it while it consecutively stacks superspeed. Also, traited Sword of Justice feels PvE-y in its burning application, but maybe the problem here is how strong burning is. I have seen the power variant as well, true shotting people from stealth for almost three quarters of their health (8 seconds cd, 1500 range), nice. I know, it may not be that great in high plat, but low plat and high gold are absolutely infested with it (it's not uncommon at all to see three trapper DH in a match). I think the easiest solution would be to change current DH traps into another skill category, or to remove trapper runes altogether (since trapper ranger is not exactly a sight for sore eyes). What do you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Cooldown on the rune effect is what they need to do. It's too easy to stack. 5-10 seconds is already a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ollbirtan.2915 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Please, not again. Use search function instead of creating posts on similar topics over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lilyanna.9361 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 That's what happens when you delete Firebrand from the meta, dumb crappy builds like this start popping up. People never seem to understand this and keep making the same dumb mistake. If you try to completely nerf a build into nothing another cheesey one will pop up to take its place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snoow.1694 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 It’s not like them destroying every viable Guardian build has forced Guard mains to play meme builds.  Here a tip, don‘t stay on point against Guards and it is a gg for you. This mentality is what cost us our symbols and every form of power damage we had Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw  Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"snoow.1694" said: > It’s not like them destroying every viable Guardian build has forced Guard mains to play meme builds. > > Here a tip, don‘t stay on point against Guards and it is a gg for you. This mentality is what cost us our symbols and every form of power damage we had its not but i have no issue abusing it till its removed or reworked considering how much i see it when im not fooling around on DH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell.  Ideally the runes are unhealthy Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently.   Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > >  No, every (meta) class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5, Stability Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis, Stability Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI, Stability Ranger: GS Block, Lightning Reflexes (yes, used correctly, this will get you out of Maw), Stability Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S, Stability Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks, sword #2 Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports Necro: Flesh Worm, Stability, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. And I haven't mentioned either that if you have fast reactions then you can dodge out of Maw when it activates. It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. Any build that entirely relies on a single 40s ability to have any impact on a game, is inherently easy to counterplay by anyone paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > Ranger: GS Block > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. This is not a comparable example You compared fighting a elite spec which cannot add powerful mechanics it shouldnt have to its kit to a rune that specifically does that. Imagine how it would be if there was a rune that said every time you used a spectral skill you got stealth and super speed if you think that people wouldn't be upset about necro using it and suddenly having stealth+ super speed on multiple buttons you would be dead wrong. Its one thing to learn how to fight a class but giving broad access to mechanics that class shouldnt have that only it and one other class can make use of is not particularly a good thing. People dont even like the fact that necros have the option to a rune like rune of speed EVEN THOUGH EVERYONE CAN USE IT FOR THE SAME BENEFIT which makes it light years more balanced than trapper at a base level. While part of the issue is how stealth works in this game in generally i think you should understand my point. Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. I think a rune that only 2 classes can use that provide a big effects like stealth + superspeed both being very powerful tools in generally probably shouldn't be in the game. IF it was one or the other i doubt people would care, if it had a icd i doubt people would care, if it was on elite skill or heal skill only i doubt people would care.  Im not saying its the only busted thing in the game as of right now but its certainly unhealthy. For many people its degenerate and unfun to play against i get the point you are coming from basically saying. Just learn to counter and to some extent you can but how much extra ease should a rune like that really provide to only 2 classes out of the 9 in the entire game. Im fine with learning to play around it but im also fine with it being reworked so its at least a little less effective or usable by all professions and not just 2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > Ranger: GS Block > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). When you are pressed for time in a match its hard to tell people to keep a cool head Regardless you are correct and i agree with what you are saying here but you are still missing my point as well. Try to keep an open mind about the other things i pointed and why people have a bad taste about the rune. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). Some DH's prevent those plays with a Spear tether as soon as they see activation or about to see one, not everytime but keep that in mind.  Ports and Stability are the best way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). > > When you are pressed for time in a match its hard to tell people to keep a cool head > Regardless you are correct and i agree with what you are saying here but you are still missing my point as well. > Try to keep an open mind about the other things i pointed and why people have a bad taste about the rune. TBH, I don't care much if Trapper Rune gets nerfed or removed, or if Burn-DH gets nerfed out of viability. I don't play it (I dabble in unranked, but not in ranked/AT). But what I am concerned about is that people who don't understand how to play or play against the build will cry for all sorts of nerfs which are actually nothing to do with the problem. You see it so many times on so many builds, people entirely failing to understand the root problem, and calling for nerfs on x/y/z which really are unrelated. Symbols, Traps, Permeating Wrath, Sword of Justice, none of these are major issues on other builds. The root cause of any issue with Burn DH comes down to Dragon's Maw out of stealth. No Maw, No Kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). > > Some DH's prevent those plays with a Spear tether as soon as they see activation or about to see one, not everytime but keep that in mind. > > Ports and Stability are the best way out. And if they use Spear to interrupt those plays, then they lose all pressure from VoJ procs. People have no idea how this build works /facepalm And thank you, I had entirely forgotten to include stability skills as a way out of Maw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > > > > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > > > > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > > > > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). > > > > Some DH's prevent those plays with a Spear tether as soon as they see activation or about to see one, not everytime but keep that in mind. > > > > Ports and Stability are the best way out. > > And if they use Spear to interrupt those plays, then they lose all pressure from VoJ procs. People have no idea how this build works /facepalm > > And thank you, I had entirely forgotten to include stability skills as a way out of Maw. Td:lr this topic, if it's about conditions, sure. If not. I don't think they should absolutely care about the passive if they are power. I know people aren't playing it the way meditrapper is but the feats to achieve damage are relatively the same and I've seen glass damage it's high, can't always avoid what you can't see either, let's keep it real as easy as it dies, it can delete stuff pretty fast when getting good catches. That's with scepter in mind too, longbow has other means to interrupt blocks if traited ofc. Ultimately what I meant is that blocks can be countered, Spear is a very good counter to Daredevil evade spam and stealth, with how squishy they tend to be that passive isn't really wasted given they panic evade too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CutesySylveon.8290 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 I think most people are forgetting that this build relies on traps, the skill type that has a whopping 2 classes that can even use them and the runes associated, and one of them is an elite. I hate trapper runes because they're stupid powerful for what they are, but their uses are so limited that I don't really see them as an issue, even if I absolutely despise trap Ranger. Â Ragnar.4257 is right though, this build is make or break by Dragon's Maw alone and it's usually not too hard to get out of or deal with. Range builds give trap DH a lot of trouble if they can't land Spear pull and it doesn't have much in the way of defense at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virdo.1540 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 im completely happy with facing this build , any variations or having it as an ally. It is perfectly balanced, as all things should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalisto.5780 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 This build is in the "unfun to play against" category, as any other rune of the trapper build. Thing is team usa used it in a teapot championship, next day you had all the copycats playing it. Â Â Â Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crozame.4098 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragnar.4257 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. Yes, even very good players can get memed if going up against something they weren't expecting or haven't yet had time to figure out a strategy against. Did you watch today's mAT? Burn DH's having pretty minimal impacts, dying *alot*, and the winning teams on both EU and NA didn't have them. That's because now we're 6-8 weeks into this trend people are starting to figure out how to counter. Give it another 6-8 weeks and nobody will be playing them anymore at top level, all that will be left are the silver/golds who are always 3 months behind the curve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dantheman.3589 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"Crozame.4098" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > you can defend it. But you cannot deny its being popular in MATs, Teapots areana final both team has a burn DH. Yes, it is indeed that the current fashion for burn DH comes down to this very basic lakc of knowledge from R55, Lakers, and other very competence teams. > > Yes, even very good players can get memed if going up against something they weren't expecting or haven't yet had time to figure out a strategy against. > > Did you watch today's mAT? Burn DH's having pretty minimal impacts, dying *alot*, and the winning teams on both EU and NA didn't have them. That's because now we're 6-8 weeks into this trend people are starting to figure out how to counter. Burn dh is a solid build that can meme consistently in ranked on sides or in team fights, but it’s quiet literally useless against a competent heal breaker who can pump out resistance and enough sustain to shrug off full trap + sword memes, which is why I predicted that it wouldn’t appear in this mAT nearly as much as the hype led on, keep in mind many believed it would quickly make its way as a meta build Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrorhuz.4695 Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 ITT: people act like there isn't such a concept as "squad". Like, there's only the dragonhunter and nothing else. It's not like this game is riddled with jaracandas who can root for 9s every 20s :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZDragon.3046 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said: > > > > > > > @"Ragnar.4257" said: > > > > > > > In order to actually apply any meaningful damage, a DH's target has to stand still for at least 3 seconds. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore, there are only 2 circumstances under which a burn-DH can actually get a kill: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Enemy is brain-dead and stands still in middle of traps, symbols, SoJ > > > > > > > 2) Enemy is trapped in Dragon's Maw > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Assuming you aren't brain-dead, kill-condition 1) is not viable. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Therefore the ONLY kill-condition for a burn-DH is 2), i.e., Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you save a durational block, a durational evade, an invuln or a teleport for Dragon's Maw, the DH simply cannot kill you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The current "fashion" for burn-DH's comes down to this very basic lack of knowledge from those playing against it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nevermind the fact that the current build runs 0 stunbreak, 0 stability, 0 insta-cast saves, which means it can be chain-CC'd from 100 to 0 with absolutely no way of doing anything about it, and has only 1 cleanse on 25s CD which is easily interrupted. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As soon as people start learning how to counter this, it'll disappear as quickly as it appeared. > > > > > > > > > > > > I would agree but thats not really a thing anymore. > > > > > > The only way you really hard counter it is by having AI's that can tank the traps for you in many cases its less about the traps and more about the stealth/ superspeed on multiple buttons anyways. > > > > > > Those runs grant a unhealthy level of sustain to any build that can use them simply due to the fact that they can vanish better than a core thief can with a better movement bonus. Ideally you could force a reveal by stepping into the trap on purpose but when ever is that a good idea. > > > > > > Keep in mind not all classes have the tools you listed. (invulns) > > > > > > Evades do not get you out of dragon maw if you dodge into a horrible position. > > > > > > Teleports dont always promise your safety either if you get chained by spear of justice while the DH is invis which gives it no tell. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ideally the runes are unhealthy > > > > > > Reworking it to be on heal or on elite skill only (perform x action) would be much more balanced at least that would make it fair to all professions and not exclusive to DH and Ranger which is another issue i have with it currently. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, every class does have a tool to deal with Dragon's Maw. > > > > > > > > > > Warrior: Shield Stance, Full Counter, Warhorn #5 > > > > > Rev: Shield Block, Staff Block, Infuse Light, the various damage reduction stuff from Jalis > > > > > Guard: Shelter, RF, DH F3, porting out with sword or JI > > > > > Ranger: GS Block > > > > > Thief: Shadowstep, Steal, Daggerstorm > > > > > Engi: Shield Block, Hammer Block, Elixir S > > > > > Mesmer: Distort, various Blinks > > > > > Ele: Obsidian Flesh, a whole array of evades and teleports > > > > > Necro: Flesh Worm, or just face-tank it all with shroud and then transfer all of the burning right back at them. > > > > > > > > > > I haven't even mentioned cleanses here, just stuff to negate Maw. > > > > > > > > > > It simply comes down to discipline of when you know there's a burnDH about of keeping track of Maw usage and making sure you have 1 of these available when you reckon the DH has Maw ready to use. > > > > > > > > > > People will eventually build this discipline, but they haven't yet. It's like learning to pressure a Reaper when it's out of shroud and kiting during, once you've got that mentality locked in then Reaper goes from looking OMGWTFBROKENOP to being entirely manageable. > > > > Generally its unhealthy and not all of those tools are super effective at dealing with DH traps ontop of trapper rune. Some of the tools are effective during the activation and during the lasting duration some of them are not effective during the activation at all as trap activations are UNBLOCKABLE. Evasive skills will get interrupted for trying to leave dragons maw as well and it last much longer than those skills do. > > > > > > You don't need to block the trap activation. Once it has activated, stand still and block for the duration. > > > > > > You don't need to evade out of the trap. Once it has activated, stand still and evade for the duration. > > > > > > See, this is the problem I'm highlighting. People panic and start going "omg omg what do I do" and they keep face-planting into the sides of the trap. Just stay cool, stand still, block or use a non-directional evade, and if you have nothing else then just wait 2 seconds before hitting your cleanse (i.e. wait for most of the burns to be applied) rather than mashing it instantly (when you only have 2 burn on you). > > > > When you are pressed for time in a match its hard to tell people to keep a cool head > > Regardless you are correct and i agree with what you are saying here but you are still missing my point as well. > > Try to keep an open mind about the other things i pointed and why people have a bad taste about the rune. > > TBH, I don't care much if Trapper Rune gets nerfed or removed, or if Burn-DH gets nerfed out of viability. I don't play it (I dabble in unranked, but not in ranked/AT). > > But what I am concerned about is that people who don't understand how to play or play against the build will cry for all sorts of nerfs which are actually nothing to do with the problem. > > You see it so many times on so many builds, people entirely failing to understand the root problem, and calling for nerfs on x/y/z which really are unrelated. > > Symbols, Traps, Permeating Wrath, Sword of Justice, none of these are major issues on other builds. The root cause of any issue with Burn DH comes down to Dragon's Maw out of stealth. No Maw, No Kills. I dont think the traps need to be nerfed cause they are less of the problem like you said there are methods to out play the traps which most people should be fine with learning against but adding high stealth uptime to a class that was not generally designed to have it gives a edge that it really shouldnt have its less people not understanding the traps and more so the fact that the runes cover up alot of weaknesses that the DH should have. While thats my opinion im sure many others might see that from similar perspective. Tell some one to learn how to fight dragon hunter and the might say "ok" Tell them to also learn how to fight the mechanics of trapper rune and its a bit dumb. Its less about the dh builds and more about the runes strong effects going off so constantly when used and the fact that other classes dont have runes that provide such powerful effects its less about knowing how to fight base dragon hunter and more about how frustrating fighting the rune mechanics are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazsi.2734 Posted November 29, 2020 Share Posted November 29, 2020 I think it's perfectly fine. Dragonhunter is clearly a class balanced to survive through blocks, damage mitigation and cleanses. The lack of mobility is offset by giving them a ranged option. i DoN'T sEe aNy pRoBLeM gIvING a SpEC lIkE tHaT sTeAlTh aNd MoBiLItY. So stop complaining and just... stop playing like I did. Haven't logged for a week and boy the balance feels way less problematic now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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