What do you guys think of the recent updates on Guardians in WVW

[PrinceValentine.9320]

Guardian

 

Holy Strike: Reduced power coefficient from 1.25 to 0.91 in WvW only.

Symbol of Swiftness: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.4 to 0.3 in WvW only.

Symbol of Punishment: Reduced symbol power coefficient per strike from 0.45 to 0.33 in WvW only.

Sword of Justice: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.72 to 0.54 in WvW only.

Zealous Scepter: Reduced might duration from 6 seconds to 4 seconds in WvW only.

Test of Faith: Reduced passthrough strike power coefficient from 2.8 to 2.52 in WvW only.

 

I do not think that this affects me that much. I am playing a support minstrel firebrand in WvW and I don't see a lot of people complaining about the changes. What are your thoughts?

[Ubi.4136]

No reduction to the burns, which is most of the damage.

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"Ubi.4136" said:

> No reduction to the burns, which is most of the damage.

 

Uh wait, isn't the mantra "Condi is useless in wvw zergs"? You cant have your cake and eat it too.

[Jura.2170]

Anet wants to nerf guardians to only give stab

 

Condi is already terrible in zerg fights, now power is too, so we cant hit things hard and tag them

[Jura.2170]

> @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> Uh wait, isn't the mantra "Condi is useless in wvw zergs"?

 

Burning is

 

No one uses burn in zerg fights, it gets cleansed right away

[subversiontwo.7501]

Um, I think alot of it has been said already.

 

The changes to core power Guard can be seen as both good and bad. It is a good change in theory because it possibly gave Guardians too many roles overall that could obscure classes with less overall roles. It may be a bad change in practise because most people have problems understanding the differences theory takes in practise and how norms come out of how players adapt. The core Guardian served a purpose of allowing Commanders a reserve of stab-bots (ie., a margin against losing Firebrands in situations when maps are full etc., so falling below critical mass could risk the entire group). I would say that the core power Guardian was perhaps more a sore spot for players on classes with low representation than it was a problem for gameplay. Either way, it is what it is, I don't feel like the change was unfair. Perhaps just unfortunate. If it pans out to still be regarded as viable even if it isn't ideal and would allow Elementalists to climb to the top and challenge the Rev for that status we may have a better balance on our hands than before. I'm just not sure if that will happen with these changes alone.

 

Like others have said, I don't find the damage hybrid builds to be issues for larger scale gameplay. Burning converts into Aegis which is a very double-edged sword and is primarily why hybrids remained controversial (so it is much less that "condi will just be cleansed at large scale" and more that burning converts to power blocks, taking power damage from your allies). Burning may also be looked at on the smaller scale and as a pub-stomper / gate keeper. I realize that we see some profileration of it at lower end roaming and clouding, but it is even more of a delicate matter there. Burning still has to be allowed to be burning and Guards have to be allowed to be Guards. So they can definately do something against one-trick ponies that just rely on burn bursting but they also need to do that without completely hamstringing the core mechanics of the class and ruining much of the hybrid play the class may need there to stay somewhat appealing. If they go at those core mechanics they may not just need to rebalance but actually redesign the core mechanics of the class into something different. Guards are not full blown condi classes and even though that can be said to point out that they shouldn't be able to burst like they do, it also goes to show that what they do is rather counterable. It is actually a very good example of where the best change to deal with the burn Guardian builds is simply to look at damage/stack caps condi-wide so no idividual tick of anything transcends a certain damage figure or stack amount, essentially forcing the bursters to play a longer game to not overstack without completely neutering every approach at playing anything but full burst dedication.

 

TLDR:

 

Core power: Potentially good for balance, unsure if reached, possibly bad for Commanders (and a risk that Commanders will use larger FB margins instead).

 

Burning: Like many other condi-burst ponies could use a look at. However, it needs to be careful not to step too much onto builds using things like Carrion, Celestial and the like because the core class mechanics, like the F1 and the stat-holes, are very much created with that in mind. A too hamfisted nerf of burn on Guardians could require a later core-mechanic redesign. A too hamfisted nerf on burning could cause interbalance issues among condi. The best solution is probably caps to make it less appealing to just burst-stack conditions in the PvP modes. If any condition could never tick above, let's say 2k just to throw a figure out, it would leave it up to condi builds to navigate that space themselves and it would allow Anet to simply balance classes between their access to condi again (more types = more damage, more amount = easier management).

[Shroud.2307]



 

They'll be okay.

[Loffels.5934]

> @"Jura.2170" said:

> > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > Uh wait, isn't the mantra "Condi is useless in wvw zergs"?

>

> Burning is

>

> No one uses burn in zerg fights, it gets cleansed right away

 

This is correct.

 

I used to play burnguardian and it absolutely gets cleansed almost immediately in a zerg fight, usually, it's converted into Aegis which is HUGE.

 

There's no denying that it does massive amounts of damage, but it's very rare to see that play in full effect when fighting other zergs.

 

I just run full power now, it's still really strong.

[Ubi.4136]

> @"Jura.2170" said:

> > @"Gwaihir.1745" said:

> > Uh wait, isn't the mantra "Condi is useless in wvw zergs"?

>

> Burning is

>

> No one uses burn in zerg fights, it gets cleansed right away

 

And yet, every zerg has quite a few burn guards in it (sinister and viper), melting siege because it's literally the most effective class at killing fixed wall siege and wall defenders, with a pull first. And while using burn guards against the blob is less effective, it kills so quick that it can pick off the slow to respond folks or anyone with no dodge left/tail. The zergs aren't worried about the outnumbered server they are fighting cleansing the burns off, because sword is on a 4 ammo charge and it only takes one to kill anyone who lags, or doesn't see the guard before it's cast. Scepter 2 is a pretty low cooldown.

[Nimon.7840]

Power hasn't been nerfed enough and no nerf to condi.

 

That's really bad.

 

Yeah Blabla, condi gets cleansed, Blabla. Except, it doesn't. Most of the times they tick at least once and in public zergs even more.

It's just far too easy to stack burning as a guard, for the damage it does.

Condis are supposed to ramp up, but burn is the highest damaging (non conditional) condi. And therefore guard has no ramp up. It's just burst damage.

[Junkpile.7439]

Sword of justice nerf hurt. I don't play dragon hunter, use staff or care about boons anyways.

[Malavian.4695]

My issue with the change is they did it because too many people were using one build and so they wanted to force people to shift tactics. That's not why you should be nerfing a build. I think that's pretty apparent because of the specific areas they chose to nerf and no introduction as to what their actual purpose was otherwise.

[Malavian.4695]

> @"Nimon.7840" said:

> Power hasn't been nerfed enough and no nerf to condi.

>

> That's really bad.

>

> Yeah Blabla, condi gets cleansed, Blabla. Except, it doesn't. Most of the times they tick at least once and in public zergs even more.

> It's just far too easy to stack burning as a guard, for the damage it does.

> Condis are supposed to ramp up, but burn is the highest damaging (non conditional) condi. And therefore guard has no ramp up. It's just burst damage.

 

Also in a zerg fight the limit of condi stacking is what 1500 conditions? yeah good luck with cleansing...

[funghetto.1584]

 

power damage of some of those skill staff etc needed a tuned down really. as spellofiniquity says, 12k? pls really no....

 

about condis, i think the issue isn't the conditions in itself, but the game mechanics in the all.

the reality is there are some classes and builds and weapons skill that applies heavy conditions damage as torment and burning. (scepter mesmer- scepter eles - mace/axe revs etc etc).

 

in those case auto attacks applies torment or burning with low low cds.

combined it with the game mechanics of condi removal that cleanses the first in the list so we will have:

organized groups etc will have less of an issue;

but in smaller fights, drop burning-torment that ticks heavily, covered by other conditions as weakness-imob-chill-cripple-bleeding, auto attack torment-burning (stack in intensity so 2-3-4-5-10 stacks), condi removal will remove the first in the list, still having burning and torment bringing you to death.

 

even in a 0 condition damage build, burning still ticks a lot.

[lare.5129]

good and some boost to choose prop direction - what we have on guard is ok. It make more clear for guards: don't worry about "Reduced power coefficient", take condi spam. This is I think more fun, that some power biuld, so help make properly direction who not already condy it good way.

For guard I accept that balance change.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

> @"funghetto.1584" said:

>

> power damage of some of those skill staff etc needed a tuned down really. as spellofiniquity says, 12k? pls really no....

>

> about condis, i think the issue isn't the conditions in itself, but the game mechanics in the all.

> the reality is there are some classes and builds and weapons skill that applies heavy conditions damage as torment and burning. (scepter mesmer- scepter eles - mace/axe revs etc etc).

>

> in those case auto attacks applies torment or burning with low low cds.

> combined it with the game mechanics of condi removal that cleanses the first in the list so we will have:

> organized groups etc will have less of an issue;

> but in smaller fights, drop burning-torment that ticks heavily, covered by other conditions as weakness-imob-chill-cripple-bleeding, auto attack torment-burning (stack in intensity so 2-3-4-5-10 stacks), condi removal will remove the first in the list, still having burning and torment bringing you to death.

>

> even in a 0 condition damage build, burning still ticks a lot.

 

Scepter ele is good condi?

[Justine.6351]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> 

> 

>

> They'll be okay.

 

Looks like they need to nerf rending claws too while they are at it.

[KarlKael.1786]

> @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" said:

> 

> 

>

> They'll be okay.

 

ok, I have to ask, what's on your "Antisocial" chat channel? XD

[Shroud.2307]

> @"KarlKael.1786" said:

> ok, I have to ask, what's on your "Antisocial" chat channel? XD

 

All channels turned off. Only thing I can see is Contacts signing in or out.

[Yasai.3549]

> @"Jura.2170" said:

> Anet wants to nerf guardians to only give stab

 

*points at Guardian*

 

Ever since we started WvW, all I could see in yu was yur Stab.

_Yu are Stab._

**_Stab._**

 

Sorry.

 

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"Jura.2170" said:

> Anet wants to nerf guardians to only give stab

>

> Condi is already terrible in zerg fights, now power is too, so we cant hit things hard and tag them

 

So.... would you trade their changes for the complete removal of Stab from the whole class?

[KrHome.1920]

The damage is far from being bad after the nerf. It's a good example for what "more in line with others" stands for. The build is still a viable "dps with a bit of utility" pick.

[lovemghool.7613]

even after nerfs is still more popular than the generic staff weaver

[kamikharzeeh.8016]

i don't care too much about those nerfs, but anet should rather leave their hands off guardian, much to break here. last time they brought their nerfing witchhunters, quite some stability got removed - and the ping-pong cancer intensified, as expected.

[Gwaihir.1745]

> @"Shroud.2307" said:

> 

> 

>

> They'll be okay.

 

I'm alot more interested in how you're getting hit for those numbers. Are you letting yourself get vuln stacked? Out of context old ss is old.

Really I run zerker in wvw and I rarely see numbers over 4-5k from tof (maybe because its easy to dodge) and never over 5k fro holy strike.