Achievement Points Cap?

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > I don't think it makes any sense to remove a large motive for people doing daily content to please people who dont actually login daily and like play...

>

> What's stopping those who login daily to finish the other achievements available in the game? Why give a motive for players that login once a day for 5 minutes (all it needs to get the 10 daily AP nowadays) and demotivate the players that play for hours in a day to earn the other, much harder to acquire achievements?

> Daily content is 5 minutes a day. Collections, legendary weapons, story achievements take much more time every day.

 

That sounds backwards from how people play. Everyone who spends hours playing thinks nothing of doing dailies. I still end up doing my dailies most days in the course of playing. You seem to get defensive about people pointing out what I did, which is that as far as some competition goes the extra ap having its cap removed would just keep it competitive. IMO youre view only makes an excuse for no longer active players to continue to feel as though they are somehow better players than those who actually play, which I dont even understand the point of really.

 

IMO the point remains that the 15k ap cap just takes some fun out of playing each day. Sure its not like you dont gain any ap ever it just removes something that gives a regular progression for well, many years then just stops, apparently so people who no longer play daily can feel accomplished still.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > Along with removing daily AP, all of the AP tied to unavailable achievements should be removed as well. This way those who actually care to compete are on even ground as every AP is obtainable. It'll be an actual achievement system.

>

> Given how they never removed achievement points even when they replaced an achievement with another one (remember Drakkar?) it's quite likely that they do not want to mess with achievement point totals in any way. Probably due to the problems it would create with rewards. The better option for unavailable achievements is to provide a new way of acquiring them. An increase of the daily AP limit up to the amount of unavailable AP is one such proposal that appears often on the forums.

 

Im pretty sure I recall various things having the repeatability of AP giving activies caped from patches after release more than once. As far as I know they never rolled back the AP some people got from repeat grinding before those patches.

[Moradorin.6217]

I have never been one to buy ap with items/gold nor do I repeat grind things JUST for more AP. I have done many non-repeatable things for AP. I like doing content, Dailies give a variety of tasks people end up doing which ever mode and they get used to the reward progress from dailies then it stops at the cap all of a sudden and its noticeable and removes some of the fun for no good reason. Which is why I think its bad.

[Moradorin.6217]

> @"Cuks.8241" said:

> Dailies are not AP worthy and should never award them in the first place.

 

then everyones daily ap should be removed and the rewards from ap should be moved given based on number of days logged in or somthing that is not ap.

 

They have been part of the game since like always. We are used to looking at ap and dailies. You are basically suggesting to make a different reward system and therefore a different game.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > Along with removing daily AP, all of the AP tied to unavailable achievements should be removed as well. This way those who actually care to compete are on even ground as every AP is obtainable. It'll be an actual achievement system.

> >

> > Given how they never removed achievement points even when they replaced an achievement with another one (remember Drakkar?) it's quite likely that they do not want to mess with achievement point totals in any way. Probably due to the problems it would create with rewards. The better option for unavailable achievements is to provide a new way of acquiring them. An increase of the daily AP limit up to the amount of unavailable AP is one such proposal that appears often on the forums.

>

> Im pretty sure I recall various things having the repeatability of AP giving activies caped from patches after release more than once. As far as I know they never rolled back the AP some people got from repeat grinding before those patches.

 

That is untrue. Every achievement which got capped had the AP adjusted for all players who had more from that achievement.

 

You are mistaken.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> I have never been one to buy ap with items/gold nor do I repeat grind things JUST for more AP. I have done many non-repeatable things for AP. I like doing content, Dailies give a variety of tasks people end up doing which ever mode and they get used to the reward progress from dailies then it stops at the cap all of a sudden and its noticeable and removes some of the fun for no good reason. Which is why I think its bad.

 

Yes, and the 10 AP from dailies are among the easiest achievements possible. They devalue nearly all other AP by how insignificantly easy they are.

 

We have barely reached a point where the daily AP do not make up the vast majority of the available AP, with the 15k now being slightly above 1/3 of total AP available. There is no reason to hand out even more AP in this way and return to a time where daily AP where a majority of the possible AP, given how they signify no type of achievement what so ever.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > Along with removing daily AP, all of the AP tied to unavailable achievements should be removed as well. This way those who actually care to compete are on even ground as every AP is obtainable. It'll be an actual achievement system.

> >

> > Given how they never removed achievement points even when they replaced an achievement with another one (remember Drakkar?) it's quite likely that they do not want to mess with achievement point totals in any way. Probably due to the problems it would create with rewards. The better option for unavailable achievements is to provide a new way of acquiring them. An increase of the daily AP limit up to the amount of unavailable AP is one such proposal that appears often on the forums.

>

> Im pretty sure I recall various things having the repeatability of AP giving activies caped from patches after release more than once. As far as I know they never rolled back the AP some people got from repeat grinding before those patches.

Actually, it's the opposite. In every single case where a previously infinitely repeatable for AP achievement got AP capped, it _did_ affect the APs of people that were originally above that cap. Starting back with the first case of such an adjustment - the salvager achieve, where some people were put back by as much as 20k AP due to this change.

 

[Linken.6345]

> @"Moradorin.6217" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > Along with removing daily AP, all of the AP tied to unavailable achievements should be removed as well. This way those who actually care to compete are on even ground as every AP is obtainable. It'll be an actual achievement system.

> >

> > Given how they never removed achievement points even when they replaced an achievement with another one (remember Drakkar?) it's quite likely that they do not want to mess with achievement point totals in any way. Probably due to the problems it would create with rewards. The better option for unavailable achievements is to provide a new way of acquiring them. An increase of the daily AP limit up to the amount of unavailable AP is one such proposal that appears often on the forums.

>

> Im pretty sure I recall various things having the repeatability of AP giving activies caped from patches after release more than once. As far as I know they never rolled back the AP some people got from repeat grinding before those patches.

 

They totally did remove the ap from they people who bought and salvaged a ton of items after they put in the 250 cap on Agent of Entropy.

[Solvar.7953]

While I'm at AP cap, I think the cap is a good idea, and still often do dailies for the 2 gold (actually more if you include the rewards for the daily chests).

I'm at about 27K AP, so more than half of my AP is coming from the daily. If there was not cap, even more of my AP would be from dailies (and I suspect this is true for lots of characters_ - if 10 ap/day went back to release, there would be about 30K of AP from dailies if there is no cap.

While looking at a characters AP is meaningless, if you see they have 25K, you at least know they did something more than just log in each day. And it seems completely reasonable to me that if you want some of the higher tier AP rewards, you do actual work for them.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Randulf.7614" said:

> they redid the system to make things fairer for incoming players

 

It had nothing to do with being more fair to incoming players and is not more fair to them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> So what? It's not like doing dailies when they still gave AP prevented them from doing those other things as well.

 

Then why do they need the cap removed, if they can do the other achievements as well?

 

> Both things together make it so the old veterans can retain their advantage while at the same time putting in far less effort than those chasing them.

 

From my answer to @"Ayrilana.1396"

> The better option for unavailable achievements is to provide a new way of acquiring them. An increase of the daily AP limit up to the amount of unavailable AP is one such proposal that appears often on the forums.

 

That takes care of your issue of "injustice". But I doubt the reason many are asking for the removal of the cap is because they can't "compete" otherwise.

 

> Why would it demotivate others?

 

Because there would be a choice: play 5 minutes and earn 10 AP, or play 2 hours and earn 10 AP. Without a cap you can repeat the first as many times as you want, removing motivation from doing the second.

 

> People that would do dailies only would always remain behind those that would do the dailies and _other_ content. It's not exclusively one or the other.

 

You are still thinking of this as if it's about a competition. As for remaining behind, that's another reason why removing the cap is pointless and those asking for it maybe haven't thought about it.

 

A common reason for the removal of the cap is to earn achievement rewards without completing achievements. Let's take 2 players, Player 1 wants the cap removed so they can get the rewards they want by finishing the dailies and Player 2 that plays both dailies and finishes the permanent achievements. If the cap is removed Player 1 will get access to the current achievement rewards, at a slower pace, but they will earn them. But, when they reach the reward they want, Player 2 would already have access to a lot of NEW rewards. And given how Player 1 isn't finishing as many achievements as Player 2, the gap between them with a cap will increase as time goes on. At some point Player 1 will calculate that it would take years to earn the latest rewards available to Player 2.

 

The removal of the cap is a short term solution for those that want Hellfire/Radiant skins, but that assumes nothing they want will be added on the achievement rewards in the future. Without a cap the gap between players who finish permanent achievements, and players who don't, will widen year after year and make situation worse, not better, for those that are asking for a cap removal.

 

 

[Luthan.5236]

We don't even know what they want. There might be different groups of people that want the cap removed for a different reason. Some might just want more AP for their stats. I don't care about this. (Though there are other stats to display for long-time players. Like their /age which is higher.)

 

Achievement rewards (the skins from chests) should be hard to earn. There should be a cap on dailies so at one point you'd have to get tons of regular achievements.

 

I think in the past there were people arguing they would never reach some rewards cause they only play 1 game mode. But then you have to take into account: There are many more other rewards you only get from these game modes (skins from PvE other achievements) .... so the stuff from achievement isn't really needed. If you want it ... ArenaNet might request you to play all the game modes to get enough achievement points.

 

I think there should be different stuff besides the 2 gold maybe. But stuff you can earn other wise. That way it might get more interesting for people that complain. (Though they should be happy they can focus more on the other aspects of the game. I mean ... it has been mentioned that there also had been people that liked to do dailies who requested the cap to not feel pressure to to the dailies every day to keep up in AP leaderboards.)

 

Would have made more sense if the laurel rewards were split to the dailies. Not the login-rewards. Like: Doing 3 sets of dailies per week gives some laurel (tracked by a weekly).

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> A common reason for the removal of the cap is to earn achievement rewards without completing achievements. Let's take 2 players, Player 1 wants the cap removed so they can get the rewards they want by finishing the dailies and Player 2 that plays both dailies and finishes the permanent achievements. If the cap is removed Player 1 will get access to the current achievement rewards, at a slower pace, but they will earn them. But, when they reach the reward they want, Player 2 would already have access to a lot of NEW rewards. And given how Player 1 isn't finishing as many achievements as Player 2, the gap between them with a cap will increase as time goes on. At some point Player 1 will calculate that it would take years to earn the latest rewards available to Player 2.

>

> **The removal of the cap is a short term solution for those that want Hellfire/Radiant skins, but that assumes nothing they want will be added on the achievement rewards in the future. Without a cap the gap between players who finish permanent achievements, and players who don't, will widen year after year and make situation worse, not better, for those that are asking for a cap removal.**

 

Very good analysis. Removing the AP cap brings with it multiple problems, nicely described here.

 

The only real benefit to removing the cap is player retention and artificial binding them to the game both via requiring them to acquire the AP as well as easier access to higher AP rewards, which obviously would be beneficial IF the gained player retention is higher than the loss due to an ever widening AP gap (not in favor of new players).

 

At that point one has to ask though: if the only thing keeping players playing the game is an arbitrary number growth derived from regular 5 minute dailies and some AP skins which are often forgotten 5 minutes after attaining them (and being utterly devalued by an infinite daily AP reward)? How serious must the player retention issues be?

[Luthan.5236]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> The only real benefit to removing the cap is player retention and artificial binding them to the game both via requiring them to acquire the AP as well as easier access to higher AP rewards, which obviously would be beneficial IF the gained player retention is higher than the loss due to an ever widening AP gap (not in favor of new players).

>

> At that point one has to ask though: if the only thing keeping players playing the game is an arbitrary number growth derived from regular 5 minute dailies and some AP skins which are often forgotten 5 minutes after attaining them (and being utterly devalued by an infinite daily AP reward)? How serious must the player retention issues be?

 

Well ... that is an interesting problem. And I think we had threads about this in the past where I also posted. I think it isn't even worth / does not make sense to try to keep those players that only play for a few dailies. Players that play more than the dailies ... will stay even if they don't get anymore AP from the dailies.

 

Players that only play for the daily AP ... aren't important to the game. To do the daily AP you don't need to buy stuff from the gemstore. You don't need to visit maps for a longer timer where you might help older players. Basically not economically to cater to their special needs when it scares away new players.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > So what? It's not like doing dailies when they still gave AP prevented them from doing those other things as well.

>

> Then why do they need the cap removed, if they can do the other achievements as well?

The same question can be asked about the existence of _any_ source of APs. Well, until there's only one source left anyway.

 

>

> > Both things together make it so the old veterans can retain their advantage while at the same time putting in far less effort than those chasing them.

>

> From my answer to @"Ayrilana.1396"

> > The better option for unavailable achievements is to provide a new way of acquiring them. An increase of the daily AP limit up to the amount of unavailable AP is one such proposal that appears often on the forums.

Like @"Ayrilana.1396", i doubt they could easily introduce a "selective" cap, different for each person. So, that option is out. And sure, the reintroduction of historical achievements in some way would be good - but again, i do not believe they would ever do that for all of the missing ones. Especially considering some of those that were _not_ part of LS1

 

>

> That takes care of your issue of "injustice". But I doubt the reason many are asking for the removal of the cap is because they can't "compete" otherwise.

>

> > Why would it demotivate others?

>

> Because there would be a choice: play 5 minutes and earn 10 AP, or play 2 hours and earn 10 AP. Without a cap you can repeat the first as many times as you want, removing motivation from doing the second.

It would still be limited - not by cap, but by a timegate. You can't do the dailies more than once within a day. So, it's really not a choice between 10 AP done one way, and 10 AP done the other. I's a choice between 10 AP for less effort, and **20** AP for more effort. You still have motivation to go for other APs. You even touch on it further down in your post.

 

>

> > People that would do dailies only would always remain behind those that would do the dailies and _other_ content. It's not exclusively one or the other.

>

> You are still thinking of this as if it's about a competition.

No. The reason why this cap was introduced in the first place was due to thinking about it as if it's a competition.

 

> As for remaining behind, that's another reason why removing the cap is pointless and those asking for it maybe haven't thought about it.

Why? Removing the cap would incentivize the veteran players to log in more often than just for holidays and for a week for each story patch.

 

> A common reason for the removal of the cap is to earn achievement rewards without completing achievements. Let's take 2 players, Player 1 wants the cap removed so they can get the rewards they want by finishing the dailies and Player 2 that plays both dailies and finishes the permanent achievements. If the cap is removed Player 1 will get access to the current achievement rewards, at a slower pace, but they will earn them. But, when they reach the reward they want, Player 2 would already have access to a lot of NEW rewards. And given how Player 1 isn't finishing as many achievements as Player 2, the gap between them with a cap will increase as time goes on. At some point Player 1 will calculate that it would take years to earn the latest rewards available to Player 2.

Yes. That is completely fine. Obviously the one that works more _should_ be ahead. Notice also, how this statement of yours is in direct conflict with the one when you claim removal of cap would demotivate players from doing other achieves. What you mention here is a clear argument for why it _wouldn;t_ do that.

 

> The removal of the cap is a short term solution for those that want Hellfire/Radiant skins, but that assumes nothing they want will be added on the achievement rewards in the future. Without a cap the gap between players who finish permanent achievements, and players who don't, will widen year after year and make situation worse, not better, for those that are asking for a cap removal.

It's not really about the hellfire/radiant. I want the cap removed, and i have already obtained full hellfire set i wanted (and obtained it long ago). I just realized at some point that APs from dailies motivated me far more than just the daily 2 gold. As a result, i stopped doing dailies shortly after i've reached the AP cap, which contributed significantly to my lessened time investment in game overall. This is also true to all players that pushed for higher APs from among the circle of my personal friends. For all of them the moment they reached the daily cap market the point at which their motivation for continued play started to go down.

 

Basically, by the point you've reached the AP cap, the remaining daily rewards are not going to motivate many players anymore. By that point 2g is completely trivial. APs however always had some worth, and, in fact, the worth of every single AP point becomes _higher_ the more APs you have. And dailies are something that stimulates players' continued (and daily) interest in the game.

 

Just look again at the original reason why the cap was introduced. Basically, it was introduced, because a certain group of players wanted to be able to have a _lower_ investment into this game. They wanted to have _less motivation for playing_. And that's exactly the kind of reasoning i am strongly against.

 

 

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Why? Removing the cap would incentivize the veteran players to log in more often than just for holidays and for a week for each story patch.

 

Again, if your only motivation to log into the game is the 10 AP from dailies, this game has serious problems.

 

In essence you are trying to make the argument that offering some AP for dailies can solve fundamental problems of player retention that game would have or is having, which is as mentioned at best a band-aid fix, at worst inefficient and at a significant cost to other players enjoyment.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> As a result, i stopped doing dailies shortly after i've reached the AP cap, which contributed significantly to my lessened time investment in game overall. This is also true to all players that pushed for higher APs from among the circle of my personal friends. For all of them the moment they reached the daily cap market the point at which their motivation for continued play started to go down.

 

Nonsense and limited analysis. The reason you spent less time in the game was because there was no content which was gripping you. You are blaming this on lacking motivation to do dailies, which take near no time at all, when in reality all you were was burned out or lacking any actual content to play.

 

Keeping players or rather forcing players to do dailies BECAUSE they can't fine anything meaningful to do is NO solution for lacking motivation or content. It never will be and should not be treated as such.

 

EDIT:

This is not limited to Guild Wars between and can be seen in many other MMORPGs which burden their players with tons of dailies which players feel forced to complete. Suffice to say most of those games work off of other business models and draw a direct benefit from keeping players subscribed. This is doubtful for GW2 since a player so disinterested in this game that he only logs in for the dailies might not be a large spender and worse might not return once burnout sets in on top of no content.

 

EDIT 2:

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> Just look again at the original reason why the cap was introduced. Basically, it was introduced, because a certain group of players wanted to be able to have a _lower_ investment into this game. They wanted to have _less motivation for playing_. And that's exactly the kind of reasoning i am strongly against.

 

You are pretending as though players who have reached nearly all AP have not spent enough time in the game. I can guarantee you that the top of the leaderboards players are all 15k+ hour accounts if not more. Again, those players were essentially done with the game. If your only motivation for playing is AP, you are better off taking a break. Which also opens up the question of how much a developer can cater to players who spend so much time on the game in the first place.

 

That said, there a tons of reasons for the AP cap without even those player demands, one of them being the developers lack of desire to deal with the AP rewards to begin with. None of that matters though since there are direct benefits to keeping the cap which have already been mentioned, especially in regard to new players as well as burnout etc.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> It would still be limited - not by cap, but by a timegate.

 

The timegate is irrelevant since in order to get 10 AP without dailies you'd need way more time than earning them from the dailies.

 

> No. The reason why this cap was introduced in the first place was due to thinking about it as if it's a competition.

 

And that's why you are thinking about it as a competition? I never did and never will think AP as a competition. Also, do keep in mind that the limit was introduced before the latest daily changes that made them considerably easier/faster.

 

> Why? Removing the cap would incentivize the veteran players to log in more often than just for holidays and for a week for each story patch.

 

At the same time it would de-incentivize veteran players from staying online anymore after they get their daily fix.

 

> Yes. That is completely fine. Obviously the one that works more _should_ be ahead. Notice also, how this statement of yours is in direct conflict with the one when you claim removal of cap would demotivate players from doing other achieves. What you mention here is a clear argument for why it _wouldn;t_ do that.

 

There is no conflict in my two statements. Removal of the cap will indeed remove a good motivation for doing any achievements outside the daily, due to the higher effort required to earn them compared to the daily. That doesn't mean -everyone- will stop doing the other achievements and even if a single person continues to do both daily and permanent achievements, Arenanet would need to create more rewards for them.

 

> For all of them the moment they reached the daily cap market the point at which their motivation for continued play started to go down.

 

What you are saying here is that the removal of the cap (so extra AP for 5 minutes every day) will motivate you to play more of this game?

Plus you do understand that the moment the cap is removed the gap between those that finish permanent achievements and those that don't will start increasing and increasing? You might not want the Radiant/Hellfire sets personally but there are others (including in this thread) that do want to remove the gap so they get access to the achievement rewards. Access will become slower and slower the more time accumulates.

 

By the way, I reached the daily cap about 2 and a half years ago. Suppose that they remove this cap as you propose, how many AP will they give me if that happens? And all other players who reached the cap years ago? You are talking about the "injustice" of some veteran players having access to unavailable AP (which weren't a large amount anyway) so what about all those missing daily AP if the cap is suddenly lifted?

[Nightcore.5621]

Just No. Play the game or don't

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > It would still be limited - not by cap, but by a timegate.

>

> The timegate is irrelevant since in order to get 10 AP without dailies you'd need way more time than earning them from the dailies.

You are again ignoring the fact that people going for other APs would do the dailies as well. Those choices are not in any kind of competition with each other.

 

> > Why? Removing the cap would incentivize the veteran players to log in more often than just for holidays and for a week for each story patch.

>

> At the same time it would de-incentivize veteran players from staying online anymore after they get their daily fix.

Why? You keep claiming that but i have not seen you present any argument for that so far. IMO the people that would not be doing the other achievements if the cap was gone would be those that either have already done them, or gave upon them long ago. I don't see how (non) existence of cap would change that.

 

> > Yes. That is completely fine. Obviously the one that works more _should_ be ahead. Notice also, how this statement of yours is in direct conflict with the one when you claim removal of cap would demotivate players from doing other achieves. What you mention here is a clear argument for why it _wouldn;t_ do that.

>

> There is no conflict in my two statements. Removal of the cap will indeed remove a good motivation for doing any achievements outside the daily, due to the higher effort required to earn them compared to the daily. That doesn't mean -everyone- will stop doing the other achievements and even if a single person continues to do both daily and permanent achievements, Arenanet would need to create more rewards for them.

>

> > For all of them the moment they reached the daily cap market the point at which their motivation for continued play started to go down.

>

> What you are saying here is that the removal of the cap (so extra AP for 5 minutes every day) will motivate you to play more of this game?

By now it's probably too late for that - i'd want to see more (for example, a good expansion) than just that. It was however one of the things that did demotivate me in the first place. Once i stopped doing dailies, it was much easier to skip logging in every day. Once i stopped logging in every day, it was much easier to give up on other, subsequent things. All those other things will be easy to catch up later, after all. Except, of course, the moment i started thinking that, it started to be easier and easier for everything to be relegated to the "i can always do it later" category.

Of course, it wasn't the only reason - for example, the achieves in subsequent LS chapters becoming more and more grindy definitely didn't help there. But it _was_ one of the reasons, and definitely not the least important one.

 

Sure, perhaps it would have been different if the game was doing a better job of offering a lot of _other_ meanigful and interesting things to do daily, and a change to that would probably be a far better idea. It's just the latter would require a vastly greater effort (and resources) to implement than the former.

 

> Plus you do understand that the moment the cap is removed the gap between those that finish permanent achievements and those that don't will start increasing and increasing? You might not want the Radiant/Hellfire sets personally but there are others (including in this thread) that do want to remove the gap so they get access to the achievement rewards. Access will become slower and slower the more time accumulates.

Well, if someone wants to get to the rewards faster they can always work on their permanent achievements more, can't they. If anything, now you can work less and get the same, because the existence of the daily cap allows you to take it slower - you _will_ reach the cap at some point anyway, by which time you will catch up all those that worked harder than you did.

 

> By the way, I reached the daily cap about 2 and a half years ago. Suppose that they remove this cap as you propose, how many AP will they give me if that happens?

None i guess. From what i remember, unlike with most repeated achievements with a cap, they do _not_ track dailies, and as such they do not know how many APs have you missed. So, you would not get any APs retroactively, but would only be able to earn new ones from that point on.

 

> And all other players who reached the cap years ago? You are talking about the "injustice" of some veteran players having access to unavailable AP (which weren't a large amount anyway) so what about all those missing daily AP if the cap is suddenly lifted?

What about them? Sure, you would not regain them,but at least you would be able to earn new ones.

(and btw, we may disagree on what constitutes "a large amount", because i think that around 5k AP - 5095 according to wiki - would definitely qualify.)

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> You are again ignoring the fact that people going for other APs would do the dailies as well. Those choices are not in any kind of competition with each other.

 

I'm not really ignoring anything. The fact is 10 AP from dailies is considerably faster than 10 AP from anything else. How much this is going to motivate anyone is up to the player in question, but in my opinion it's gonna play the exact same role as for those players that stop playing the game because they can't earn daily AP anymore.

 

> Why? You keep claiming that but i have not seen you present any argument for that so far.

 

For the same reason you and your friends stopped playing when they introduced the cap. Why did you stop playing when they introduced the cap?

 

> It was however one of the things that did demotivate me in the first place.

 

Well, I don't play a game for the daily AP it provides, so I guess we are different in that regard.

 

> If anything, now you can work less and get the same, because the existence of the daily cap allows you to take it slower - you _will_ reach the cap at some point anyway, by which time you will catch up all those that worked harder than you did.

 

There is an assumption here that there is a cap in achievement rewards. Second, getting to the upper limit of that cap will take years, while the rewards will appear sooner thanks to all those actually playing the game and not being lazy.

 

> What about them? Sure, you would not regain them,but at least you would be able to earn new ones.

 

So you want Arenanet to give their most loyal, veteran players a giant middle finger just because you are lazy... amazing

 

> (and btw, we may disagree on what constitutes "a large amount", because i think that around 5k AP - 5095 according to wiki - would definitely qualify.)

 

Two and a half years of dailies is almost 10k AP that I'm going to "lose" if they remove the cap without compensation :) good suggestion indeed.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > You are again ignoring the fact that people going for other APs would do the dailies as well. Those choices are not in any kind of competition with each other.

>

> I'm not really ignoring anything. The fact is 10 AP from dailies is considerably faster than 10 AP from anything else.

10 AP, sure. It's not so clearcut if you look at more than one daily, however. It doesn't take a year of logging every single day to obtain your first non-daily 3650 APs, for example. And you don't need over 4 years to obtain 15k AP from non-daily sources either.

On top of that it's not like doing non-daily achieves stops you from doing dailies.

In the end, no, people getting AP from dailies alone are not going to obtain them faster than those that will do other things as well. They won't even come close to that. Ultimately, the truth is the exact opposite to what you say - restricting yourself to dailies alone is the _slowest_ method of obtaining APs.

 

> How much this is going to motivate anyone is up to the player in question, but in my opinion it's gonna play the exact same role as for those players that stop playing the game because they can't earn daily AP anymore.

I don't see why it would do that.

>

> > Why? You keep claiming that but i have not seen you present any argument for that so far.

>

> For the same reason you and your friends stopped playing when they introduced the cap. Why did you stop playing when they introduced the cap?

I have mentioned this in my previous post if you haven't noticed. If you go and reread it, you will see how there's no relation between what i said and your "conclusion" whatsoever.

 

> > If anything, now you can work less and get the same, because the existence of the daily cap allows you to take it slower - you _will_ reach the cap at some point anyway, by which time you will catch up all those that worked harder than you did.

>

> There is an assumption here that there is a cap in achievement rewards.

Where is that assumption? What i said holds equally true whether there's a cap on rewards or if the rewards will keep being added.

 

> Second, getting to the upper limit of that cap will take years, while the rewards will appear sooner thanks to all those actually playing the game and not being lazy.

Not sure how that relates in any way to what i said.

 

>

> > What about them? Sure, you would not regain them,but at least you would be able to earn new ones.

>

> So you want Arenanet to give their most loyal, veteran players a giant middle finger just because you are lazy... amazing

I want to do exactly the opposite. Removal of cap would benefit the veterans the most after all. And it would benefit the non-lazy ones the most. Those that only log in for holidays would not benefit all that much from it, after all.

 

> Two and a half years of dailies is almost 10k AP that I'm going to "lose" if they remove the cap without compensation :) good suggestion indeed.

Yes, but that would not be dure to removal of the cap, but _due to it being introduced in the first place_. And in the next two and a half years you will be going to "lose" not 10, but 20k if the cap is not removed now. In a way, you "lose" 10 ap every single day. So, as i see it, my suggestion is better than yours in that regard.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> And you don't need over 4 years to obtain 15k AP from non-daily sources either.

 

If that was the case people wouldn't complain they can't get achievement rewards they want and ask for the cap to be removed.

 

> In the end, no, people getting AP from dailies alone are not going to obtain them faster than those that will do other things as well.

 

Which is irrelevant anyway. The truth remains that getting 10 AP from dailies will be faster than getting 10 AP from anything else. That's a clear demotivation for doing anything other than dailies.

 

> I have mentioned this in my previous post if you haven't noticed.

 

I didn't notice no. You simply said it demotivated you from logging in. Removing the cap will do the exact same as I said:

 

> How much this is going to motivate anyone is up to the player in question, but in my opinion it's gonna play the exact same role as for those players that stop playing the game because they can't earn daily AP anymore.

 

Same principle. Just because one demotivates you to stop playing doesn't mean the other won't demotivate others.

 

> I don't see why it would do that.

 

And I don't see how the addition of the cap demotivated you and your friends from playing the game. I play the game for the content it provides, not the daily AP. See how that works.

 

> I want to do exactly the opposite. Removal of cap would benefit the veterans the most after all. And it would benefit the non-lazy ones the most.

 

No, you want exactly what I said. Removal of the cap won't benefit the veterans as they will be losing thousands of AP with that change. It will also benefit the lazy ones that don't want to do the permanent achievements and want to reach the rewards they want by playing 5 minutes every day. So no, what you want is exactly what I said.

 

> Those that only log in for holidays would not benefit all that much from it, after all.

 

You have a very weird definition of the word lazy. Someone logging only for holidays is someone that already finished most of the other permanent achievements, right? So a player that invested thousands of hours in the game, doing every single piece of content the game offers is lazy by your standards because thanks to the cap they don't have to login daily for 5 minutes to play the game again and again.

 

Meanwhile, the removal of the cap will allow players that haven't done much (if any) of the permanent achievements the game has to offer, so they haven't played the game itself as much, to reach any kind of achievement reward just by logging in every day and playing for 5 minutes every day. And that's not lazy by your standards?

 

Logging in every day for 5 minutes and then logging out is not lazy for you, but playing for thousands of hours, even if not every day, is lazy... I'm not gonna agree with your definition.

 

> Yes, but that would not be dure to removal of the cap, but _due to it being introduced in the first place_.

 

No you got it backwards. I will be losing the AP because of the removal of the cap, not it's addition. Right now I'm not losing anything because the cap exists, if it is removed at an arbitary moment in the future, that's when I will lose all those AP. I can't lose something that isn't there to begin with, only way for me to "lose" anything is if the cap is removed.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > And you don't need over 4 years to obtain 15k AP from non-daily sources either.

>

> If that was the case people wouldn't complain they can't get achievement rewards they want and ask for the cap to be removed.

You are making an assumption here that everyone that asks for the cap to be removed is doing that because they want a specific reward. This assumption is not true.

 

> > In the end, no, people getting AP from dailies alone are not going to obtain them faster than those that will do other things as well.

>

> Which is irrelevant anyway. The truth remains that getting 10 AP from dailies will be faster than getting 10 AP from anything else. That's a clear demotivation for doing anything other than dailies.

You still ignore the existence of timegate, which alone is enough to make sure people interested in specific rewards will try to go for other AP sources as well. The people that won't go for other sources would most likely not go for them either way.

 

>

> > I have mentioned this in my previous post if you haven't noticed.

>

> I didn't notice no. You simply said it demotivated you from logging in. Removing the cap will do the exact same as I said:

>

> > How much this is going to motivate anyone is up to the player in question, but in my opinion it's gonna play the exact same role as for those players that stop playing the game because they can't earn daily AP anymore.

Pray, tell me how exactly a mechanic encouraging me to log in daily is going to discourage me from logging in daily, because it seems to be completely counterintuitive to me.

 

> And I don't see how the addition of the cap demotivated you and your friends from playing the game. I play the game for the content it provides, not the daily AP. See how that works.

Removing the cap would not remove any content from the game, so i don't see why it would affect you at all.

 

> Meanwhile, the removal of the cap will allow players that haven't done much (if any) of the permanent achievements the game has to offer, so they haven't played the game itself as much, to reach any kind of achievement reward just by logging in every day and playing for 5 minutes every day. And that's not lazy by your standards?

Considering that it would require from them to log in and play daily for over 4 years just to reach the current cap, no, that's not really lazy. That's dedicated. Besides, anyone dedicated enough to keep logging in daily for many years is almost certainly invested enough to play way more than that.

 

> You have a very weird definition of the word lazy. Someone logging only for holidays is someone that already finished most of the other permanent achievements, right? So a player that invested thousands of hours in the game, doing every single piece of content the game offers is lazy by your standards because thanks to the cap they don't have to login daily for 5 minutes to play the game again and again.

 

In the end, the cap was introduced because a certain group of players _wanted to put less effort into the game_. If that's not a desire to be lazy, then i don't know what is.

 

> No you got it backwards. I will be losing the AP because of the removal of the cap, not it's addition. Right now I'm not losing anything because the cap exists, if it is removed at an arbitary moment in the future, that's when I will lose all those AP. I can't lose something that isn't there to begin with, only way for me to "lose" anything is if the cap is removed.

You are not gaining APs from dailies now. You would be gaining APs from dailies from that point on. That's not a loss. Seriously, it's like claiming that you don't want your company to offer a pay raise for everyone, because you have worked in that company for 8 years and that pay raise would make you "lose" money retroactively for all those past years. At this point even people that say that a discount for GW2/expansion (or adding HoT into PoF for free now) means they lost they money they've spent on it have a stronger argument than you do.

 

This kind of "logic" just doesn't hold water.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> You are making an assumption here that everyone that asks for the cap to be removed is doing that because they want a specific reward. This assumption is not true.

 

I never made this assumption, I simply point out reasons players ask for the removal of the cap. You can check this thread about it too. Do people ask for the removal of the cap in order to get rewards they are too lazy to acquire otherwise? Yes they do. Just because other players are asking for the removal of the cap out of grudge against other, more accomplished, players, doesn't make what I said untrue.

 

> The people that won't go for other sources would most likely not go for them either way.

 

That's an assumption that isn't really true. Yes, It's a timegate, but it's lazy/effortless AP. See it this way, when AB ML was a thing, it was run by a gigantic number of players because it was the least gold to effort ratio activity in the game. As a result other parts of the game suffered for it, which led to change. Same with all the other similar "amazing" farms for gold we've had over the years. The removal of the cap is like asking for one such effortless farm to be added to the game (for achievement points instead of gold) Not gonna work very well for sure.

 

> Pray, tell me how exactly a mechanic encouraging me to log in daily is going to discourage me from logging in daily, because it seems to be completely counterintuitive to me.

 

I never claimed anything like that. I talked about demotivating players from doing achievements, just like adding the cap demotivated you from playing the game. It's a similarity, not the same thing.

 

> Removing the cap would not remove any content from the game, so i don't see why it would affect you at all.

 

The addition of the cap didn't make any changes to the content of the game either, it's still the same and there to enjoy. If you find the game to have changed away of your desires over the past months/years whatever, then you should aim for changes in that part of the game, that really affect player retention. Instead of a cap.

 

> Considering that it would require from them to log in and play daily for over 4 years just to reach the current cap, no, that's not really lazy. That's dedicated.

 

So you are calling "dedicated" a player logging in daily for 4 years to finish the daily AP, then logging out, and NOT a player that finished every piece of content the game has to offer. I beg to differ. A player that logs in for Festivals and new Episode releases and finishes every single achievement provided by them, for 4 years shows much more dedication than a player simply logging in for the dailies for 4 years.

 

> Besides, anyone dedicated enough to keep logging in daily for many years is almost certainly invested enough to play way more than that.

 

That's just an assumtpion. But if that was the case, they wouldn't need the daily cap to be removed.

 

> In the end, the cap was introduced because a certain group of players _wanted to put less effort into the game_. If that's not a desire to be lazy, then i don't know what is.

 

Because they already put more effort than other players in finishing the rest of the permanent achievements first. Now players who are too lazy to finish the permanent achievements want the cap lifted so they can reach what those other players have, without putting any effort. If that's not a desire to be lazy then I don't know what is.

 

> You are not gaining APs from dailies now.

 

Exactly. So I don't lose anything now.

 

> You would be gaining APs from dailies from that point on. That's not a loss.

 

But I'd "lose" all the AP I would've gotten if the cap isn't removed. That's an actual loss. To stay with the game we play, when they added collection/wardrobe achievements, they retroactively awarded those points to those that had unlocked the items/skins/achievements in the past. So there is more than enough precedent for retroactively giving achievement rewards.

 

> At this point even people that say that a discount for GW2/expansion (or adding HoT into PoF for free now) means they lost they money they've spent on it have a stronger argument than you do.

 

Only a discount, or making the core game free, was a desicion based on economics, it's common for many items, including video games, for their value to drop over time.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

I'm glad it is hard capped so I can catch up. Want to progress with AP? Do every bit of content and buy every thing.