More “paths” to legendary gear...

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > I'm in the industry since 2004. Never worked anything else, and never changed workplace.

> And you didn't know what SWO NGE was and never heard about the debacle it caused. Which obviously means we should trust you when you claim that you know well about your industry problems.

> ...right.

>

>

 

Forgive me for not knowing every single 3-letter abbreviation in the game industry. I'm sure it will be the dealbreaker in my CV if I ever decide to switch studios. :lol:

[Voltekka.2375]

Maybe this thread should be closed. It offers nothing new after 1k+ replies, , except personal attacks, ad hominems and whatnot.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Since ANet's nerfed their position from "legendary armor is the reward for the most challenging PvE mode" to "envoy armor is the reward," why not allow people to make stat-swappable armor without visiting PvP or WvW or raids?

 

It would most definitely please those who want to see ecto, fine mats, silk, & mithril rise in price.

 

Therefore, I'd also suggest to the OP: be careful what you wish ANet for. It currently takes _a minimum_ of 22 weeks to obtain the WvW version

→ at 1450 pips/week, a silver-ranked WvWarrior earning "average" pips will need to play 15-17 hours per week (and if you spend less time, it will take much longer, because you get the most pips/tick from the last three tiers of rewards each week).

It's hard to imagine ANet releasing an open-world, PvE option for legendary armor that is going to be less of a time commitment.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > I'm in the industry since 2004. Never worked anything else, and never changed workplace.

> And you didn't know what SWO NGE was and never heard about the debacle it caused. Which obviously means we should trust you when you claim that you know well about your industry problems.

> ...right.

>

>

 

More like.. _Do I believe that a Devs would go forum-warrior-ing on their off time on a game they didn't build_ ... nope.

 

Do I believe that someone has been in the Biz since 2004, and pretty much been wrong about everything they have said about the industry to date.. Again.. Nope. I mean they said all games go into decline after launch.. yet.. WoW, which launched in 2006, shot that myth straight to hell.. and they stood by their feels that all games into decline after launch. Truth be told.. if a perspective employer read their posts riddled with that level of miss information.. I would not hire them.

 

But.. then again they might be a programmer, who does the code, but does not design the game itself, as such they would not need to follow the trends and know what is going on to do their job well, but.. do I think after putting in marathon hours during crunch time building games they would then go troll around on some other games forums, again.. _Nahh_.

 

Been a good troll so far and something fun to poke at.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > I'm in the industry since 2004. Never worked anything else, and never changed workplace.

> > And you didn't know what SWO NGE was and never heard about the debacle it caused. Which obviously means we should trust you when you claim that you know well about your industry problems.

> > ...right.

> >

> >

>

> Forgive me for not knowing every single 3-letter abbreviation in the game industry. I'm sure it will be the dealbreaker in my CV if I ever decide to switch studios. :lol:

 

It's called being a professional, if you have been in this biz for the last 14 years, you should know this stuff better then anyone.. and yet.. here we are schooling you.

[katz.8376]

> @"flog.3485" said:

> Your ideas are terrible for the game as far as I am concerned. You don't get people attached to the game with everything being accessible. You get them to play more with a little bit of frustration at some point. The truth is this game has always wanted to have some difficult content to achieve and even then, it is so much optional.

 

something can be accessible and frustrating at the same time. no one's asking things on a silver platter. it still should be a task to complete... an accomplishment to be proud of... accessible =/= easy. if something is INaccessible... no chance of ever attaining it... people tend to leave as they feel they have nothing to play toward.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> What difference would it make if I told you? You have no ways of checking my claims, so you'll refuse to believe anything that would give me any credibility in your eyes. There simply is no advantage whatsoever to doing so.

 

ya know... i knew a game dev who was cocky and made a bunch of incorrect assumptions about what people liked just like you... he screwed up loot in the game he was working on, then transferred to another studio and screwed up their loot too... you don't, by chance, favor a sun/solar/flaming theme, do you? i mean... since you won't tell us what game(s) you work(ed) on, i have to either assume you're full of it, or guess who you might be

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> Since ANet's nerfed their position from "legendary armor is the reward for the most challenging PvE mode" to "envoy armor is the reward," why not allow people to make stat-swappable armor without visiting PvP or WvW or raids?

>

> It would most definitely please those who want to see ecto, fine mats, silk, & mithril rise in price.

>

> Therefore, I'd also suggest to the OP: be careful what you wish ANet for. It currently takes _a minimum_ of 22 weeks to obtain the WvW version

> → at 1450 pips/week, a silver-ranked WvWarrior earning "average" pips will need to play 15-17 hours per week (and if you spend less, it will take much longer, because you get the most pips/tick from the last three tiers of rewards each week).

> It's hard to imagine ANet releasing an open-world, PvE option for legendary armor that is going to be less of a time commitment.

 

I've said this before, so I'll say it again. I don't really care about the skin. Personally I think "Evony" is ugly. I kinda like the look of the WvW armor better anyway, wish they upped that to make it look more aligned with Warbringer... now that would be a skin worth going after.

 

But anyway, I was working on the WvW Legendary Armor version because that is the most casual accessible armor path there is.. and you know.. I just need that 10th gift of battle.. for.. reasons.. and then.. well, as best I can explain it, it really started to piss me off that I was the one being sent away to WvW to farm armor for my PvE character.

 

I mean, in reality that is pretty damn rude when you think about it.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> A QoL item only for the best players.

> That escalated quickly.

 

At least it's not a QoL item for people that think it's OK justify anything they want ingame because of cheating. Frankly, I don't actually see anything wrong with a QoL item for the best players ... and neither has any other MMO I've ever played either. I mean, this isn't some foreign concept here. best loot from the most end game content is pretty much a staple ... and you guys are pretending like you've never seen such a thing before.

[Shirlias.8104]

It wasn't for you.

Check a few posts before mine.

 

And don't confuse Qol with skins.

[flog.3485]

> @"katz.8376" said:

> > @"flog.3485" said:

> > Your ideas are terrible for the game as far as I am concerned. You don't get people attached to the game with everything being accessible. You get them to play more with a little bit of frustration at some point. The truth is this game has always wanted to have some difficult content to achieve and even then, it is so much optional.

>

> something can be accessible and frustrating at the same time. no one's asking things on a silver platter. it still should be a task to complete... an accomplishment to be proud of... accessible =/= easy. if something is INaccessible... no chance of ever attaining it... people tend to leave as they feel they have nothing to play toward.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > What difference would it make if I told you? You have no ways of checking my claims, so you'll refuse to believe anything that would give me any credibility in your eyes. There simply is no advantage whatsoever to doing so.

>

> ya know... i knew a game dev who was cocky and made a bunch of incorrect assumptions about what people liked just like you... he screwed up loot in the game he was working on, then transferred to another studio and screwed up their loot too... you don't, by chance, favor a sun/solar/flaming theme, do you? i mean... since you won't tell us what game(s) you work(ed) on, i have to either assume you're full of it, or guess who you might be

 

@"katz.8376" True....But here is some issue I personally have with your claim. At some point, I just think that the game should offer content that you can not solo complete (like you could solo craft yourself a legendary weapon without even interacting with anyone else). Here is where the little bit of frustration comes in, because in this game, most of the rewards that the game has to offer can be completed solo and trust me on that, I very much fall into this category.

 

You talk about things to look forward but that is what the game has to look forward imo. Talking about HoT and the focus on the newly developed guild halls, obviously the goal was to incentivize to gather the players, have them involved in their guild and later on give them the opportunity to take down the raid bosses as a guild, without relying on other random people that you never met (this strategy kinda failed sadly).

 

However on a personal note, I was able to do that. Did I get keep playing raids to get a legendary armor ? Not really because I wasn't interested in the content (even though I couls see the value in it) and I certainly did not want to hold down other of my guildies who wanted to kill the raid bosses. I might get my hand on legendary armor however, but for that I will just go play PvP. It really isn't a dealbreaker since the the armor is not gated behind getting to legendary tier of PvP (that is already quite a task to achieve because you need to get your tickets and then get the mats necessary to turn the PvP armor pieces into legendary tier).

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> It wasn't for you.

> Check a few posts before mine.

>

> And don't confuse Qol with skins.

 

I'm not confusing anything, regardless if it's a QoL or a skin 'upgrade', I see nothing wrong with end game content having exclusive rewards for either class of item.

[Linken.6345]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see a problem with that at all. That's a limitation imposed by the player ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes ... if a casual player wants armor, they can choose the BEST path for them to get it of the three available. I mean, this is a nonsensical discussion ... you are saying people don't have choice for a path to get gear they want because they restrict themselves to doing content where they could never get that gear ... NO WAY!!!!. Read that a few times and let it sink in.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not imposed by the player, but by the system ( I am sorry, i shouldn't dare to play the game mode i like! )

> > > > > > > > > > > > > If the player like to play WvW and another like to play PvE, 1h per day, why should one be allowed to get his armor by playing the game mode he wants?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I encourage you to go do math and then tell me how long it would take from a casual WvW newbie to obtain his legendary armor through WvW by plaing 1h a week... or even 1h a day. Go on. Having that little playtime wont get you anywhere close to maximum skirmish ticket cap per week, which is extremely slow and grindy route to a legendary armor, even more so than raiding.

> > > > > > > > > > > > Lets say Anet would make legendary armor to be obtainable through open world. How are these 1h/day people or 1h/week people even going to make it to the required meta events and such to complete their gear? Hmm?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This here is a great point and question.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > But see, your question stems from the view of a meta junkie that is only thinking of time and efficiency to the end goal.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > See, a Casual player just needs a plausible path that they can do, the time is not as important as it being within reach. In this venture WvW Legendary Armor is totally doable to the Casual WvW player and while it will take them many times longer then a seriously invested WvW player, but it is still well within their reach to get it simply by playing WvW at their casual pace in a manner they enjoy.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The same is not to be said for the PvE Legendary Armor.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > The Irony that the PvP Legendary Armor is more casual friendly then the PvE version is not lost on me.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Well the pve player can just do the wvw one then capturing camps, monuments, killing dollyaks or sentries is totaly doable for a pve player.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Oh sure they can.. and no doubt a fair number do.. but you know.. the Hard core players could have just done sPvP and WvW for challenge as well, didn't stop them incessantly crying about needing more PvE challenge now did it?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > It's not the same. Asking for raids is asking for different _gameplay_, which didn't exist in the game. Asking for the envoy is asking for a _reward_. Furthermore, you'll find an exclusive reward in every piece of supported content, including LS and expansion maps. Face it, regardless what the exact nature of the raid rewards is, they *WILL* be exclusive. Because that's how games work. And at this point, it's just a set of armor skins of questionable aesthetic. Which makes the request even more petty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Says the people that could not find their challenge in PvP, and needed scripted encounters.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > We are also still wondering what game(s) you developed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I tried pvp and didn't like it. I tried raiding and I liked it. See the difference? PvP is a fundamentally different challenge and not one you can expect everyone to enjoy. Same goes for challenging PvE content actually. This is why the game needed, and got, both.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yah, the difference is you feel the game needs to cater to your flavor while decrying anyone that asks for the same. But hey.. raid boss sell for 80 gold a pop.. That's some good money your fighting for.

> > > >

> > > > If you haven't seen the difference, as explained in my previous post, you won't ever see it. For the simple reason you *choose* not to. Can't help ya.

> > >

> > > Oh look the one thing we might have in common, a dislike for dealing with people who are willfully oblivious.

> > >

> > > So what game(s) have you worked on again?

> > >

> >

> > What difference would it make if I told you? You have no ways of checking my claims, so you'll refuse to believe anything that would give me any credibility in your eyes. There simply is no advantage whatsoever to doing so.

>

> The fact that you have been wrong about everything you have said about games and development, as well as not even knowing what the SW NGE was, it's painfully clear you don't work in the industry, I am just asking that to poke fun at your claims, as well know they were just some trolling on your part.

 

You know the games industry is quite wast you cant expect a person who do for instance mobile games or single player rpgs to follow what happens in the mmo part of the industry.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> You know the games industry is quite wast you cant expect a person who do for instance mobile games or single player rpgs to follow what happens in the mmo part of the industry.

True. Or that person might be a programist and know nothing about the marketing, design or business side. Now, if i see a person that brings up being a dev as an argument, claiming to know those sides of the business, and then starts showing significant lack of knowledge aboutit, then it's hard to treat that person seriously.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Shirlias.8104" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I don't see a problem with that at all. That's a limitation imposed by the player ...

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and yes ... if a casual player wants armor, they can choose the BEST path for them to get it of the three available. I mean, this is a nonsensical discussion ... you are saying people don't have choice for a path to get gear they want because they restrict themselves to doing content where they could never get that gear ... NO WAY!!!!. Read that a few times and let it sink in.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's not imposed by the player, but by the system ( I am sorry, i shouldn't dare to play the game mode i like! )

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > If the player like to play WvW and another like to play PvE, 1h per day, why should one be allowed to get his armor by playing the game mode he wants?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I encourage you to go do math and then tell me how long it would take from a casual WvW newbie to obtain his legendary armor through WvW by plaing 1h a week... or even 1h a day. Go on. Having that little playtime wont get you anywhere close to maximum skirmish ticket cap per week, which is extremely slow and grindy route to a legendary armor, even more so than raiding.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets say Anet would make legendary armor to be obtainable through open world. How are these 1h/day people or 1h/week people even going to make it to the required meta events and such to complete their gear? Hmm?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This here is a great point and question.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > But see, your question stems from the view of a meta junkie that is only thinking of time and efficiency to the end goal.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > See, a Casual player just needs a plausible path that they can do, the time is not as important as it being within reach. In this venture WvW Legendary Armor is totally doable to the Casual WvW player and while it will take them many times longer then a seriously invested WvW player, but it is still well within their reach to get it simply by playing WvW at their casual pace in a manner they enjoy.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The same is not to be said for the PvE Legendary Armor.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > The Irony that the PvP Legendary Armor is more casual friendly then the PvE version is not lost on me.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Well the pve player can just do the wvw one then capturing camps, monuments, killing dollyaks or sentries is totaly doable for a pve player.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Oh sure they can.. and no doubt a fair number do.. but you know.. the Hard core players could have just done sPvP and WvW for challenge as well, didn't stop them incessantly crying about needing more PvE challenge now did it?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > It's not the same. Asking for raids is asking for different _gameplay_, which didn't exist in the game. Asking for the envoy is asking for a _reward_. Furthermore, you'll find an exclusive reward in every piece of supported content, including LS and expansion maps. Face it, regardless what the exact nature of the raid rewards is, they *WILL* be exclusive. Because that's how games work. And at this point, it's just a set of armor skins of questionable aesthetic. Which makes the request even more petty.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Says the people that could not find their challenge in PvP, and needed scripted encounters.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > We are also still wondering what game(s) you developed.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I tried pvp and didn't like it. I tried raiding and I liked it. See the difference? PvP is a fundamentally different challenge and not one you can expect everyone to enjoy. Same goes for challenging PvE content actually. This is why the game needed, and got, both.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yah, the difference is you feel the game needs to cater to your flavor while decrying anyone that asks for the same. But hey.. raid boss sell for 80 gold a pop.. That's some good money your fighting for.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you haven't seen the difference, as explained in my previous post, you won't ever see it. For the simple reason you *choose* not to. Can't help ya.

> > > >

> > > > Oh look the one thing we might have in common, a dislike for dealing with people who are willfully oblivious.

> > > >

> > > > So what game(s) have you worked on again?

> > > >

> > >

> > > What difference would it make if I told you? You have no ways of checking my claims, so you'll refuse to believe anything that would give me any credibility in your eyes. There simply is no advantage whatsoever to doing so.

> >

> > The fact that you have been wrong about everything you have said about games and development, as well as not even knowing what the SW NGE was, it's painfully clear you don't work in the industry, I am just asking that to poke fun at your claims, as well know they were just some trolling on your part.

>

> You know the games industry is quite wast you cant expect a person who do for instance mobile games or single player rpgs to follow what happens in the mmo part of the industry.

 

This is a fair point, In my business, I work with a lot of specialty professionals, and the tag line we use around the office is "Know when to shut up" and we say this because parading your ignorance to people that know their shit is never a flattering show.

 

Which bring s us back to games.. yes Devs make mistakes, case in point, HoT underwent several revisions to tone the difficulty back a bit. The smart moves are when the mistake is first acknowledged, then addressed, and then some kind of fix or revision is worked on.

 

Too often a company will try to remain silent about things, and just try to sweep them under the rug, and, if things are going poorly, that the worst thing you can do. Look at the mount issue, first they responded to the Mount issue, they explained why they did it, and then, they worked on a way to address it and fix it so that things would be better.

 

That is the way to deal with all problems as it builds transparency and good will among the population. IMHO.

 

Now how that works with raids.. well.. we shall see what happens. Right now, focusing on making "Challenging Elite PvE end game content" and then following that up with a half-baked PoF expansion, has set them back around 25 million annually, As Irony would have it, PoF has done around the same in pre-sales as HoT did.. so there is that. Maybe next quarter will be a pull ahead, we shall see.

[Cryformercy.3056]

> @"Umut.5471" said:

> WvW and sPvP legendary armor should have their unique legendary skins imo. Legendary weapons on the other hand, require all kind of gameplay unlike raid-locked legendary armor skins and the new ring.

 

I am wishing to have unique look for leggy armour, however I don't like the PvP set which is like same as leggy. But another thing would be cool to have new backpack. Ascension is so old. We now could have something elona inspired. With same way of obtaining it as ascension. No changes just different design. Or maybe not backpack but some PvP legendary trinkets as aurora with some cool aura. Just for PvP people.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Now how that works with raids.. well.. we shall see what happens. Right now, focusing on making "Challenging Elite PvE end game content" and then following that up with a half-baked PoF expansion, has set them back around 25 million annually, As Irony would have it, PoF has done around the same in pre-sales as HoT did.. so there is that. Maybe next quarter will be a pull ahead, we shall see.

 

Well if you want to call 5 ish people out of 300 employees focussing on. I suppose youre right. But then they also focussed on rebalancing HoT fractals, making new living world maps, pvp, wvw and the gemstore... which is kinda weird of a definition of "focussing on".

 

Nice scapegoating, I say.

[Zushada.6108]

I have been thinking about this thread a fair bit. To be honest, I was really surprised to learn that PVP and WvW have a Legendary gear set, Raids have a Legendary gear set but Fractals and/or Open world does not -- particularly Fractals given the AR/ascended requirement. Yes, a backpack in fractals but I have to agree with the OP that it would be nice to have an alternative to raids. Why? Because I don't see Raids as connected to PVE in this game. There is a reason why sites like Snowcrows and Metabattle have specific Raid builds and specific Fractal builds. Raids are an entirely separate game-mode requiring specific builds and gear-sets so to me, the Envoy is the Raid legendary not the PVE legendary gear.

 

I think, with so many legendary weapons collections available in Central Tyria/HoT and the existing gear sets, it would be relatively easy for Anet develop a gear set that (meaning the legendary framework already exists). They seem to like to make us endure pain and suffering to acquire legendaries so I can see how they could develop a set that makes you run HoT meta events; run WBs in Central Tyria, farming Cursed Shore/SW/DT and running Dungeons/Fractals etc.

 

The one aspect I love the most about this game is the Open World content and meta events and I think, many of the questions/requests related to difficulty levels for raids would be resolved if players had an open world alternative. Just my two cents but I think, it would be a good call on Anets part to have this as an option.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > Now how that works with raids.. well.. we shall see what happens. Right now, focusing on making "Challenging Elite PvE end game content" and then following that up with a half-baked PoF expansion, has set them back around 25 million annually, As Irony would have it, PoF has done around the same in pre-sales as HoT did.. so there is that. Maybe next quarter will be a pull ahead, we shall see.

>

> Well if you want to call 5 ish people out of 300 employees focussing on. I suppose youre right. But then they also focussed on rebalancing HoT fractals, making new living world maps, pvp, wvw and the gemstore... which is kinda weird of a definition of "focussing on".

>

> Nice scapegoating, I say.

 

HA HA I see you missed that HoT was an _entire expansion directed at providing "Challenging End Game Content"_, the fact that it went over so poorly they needed to tone it back several times over should have been a warning they were making a mistake here. But here they are with Raids being the only content with a dedicated team and they have made Fractals harder.

 

Yah.. PoF.. is a mixed bag, but also feels half done, and that is going to hurt them as well.

 

WvW is today what its has always been.. a vastly neglected game mode, their supposed sudden attention to dealing with years old problems if most likely brought upon the rise of games like CU and CF, and a move to stopgap what will most likely be a massive exodus those hold outs. Not that returning WvW to the greatness of being the PvD playpen that EotM once was, would be a bad thing, in fact that might help retain the casual gear farmers.

 

Gemstore.. yes.. well they need to make money and Raids, HoT, WvW, sPvP, LW, Fractals, are all just overhead at this point.

 

It's not a scapegoat

[Feanor.2358]

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before.

>

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here.

>

> Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong).

 

No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever.

[Sarrs.4831]

A minor aside;

 

I am curious why there is little fuss made over Aurora, the new legendary ring and the first four Gen 2 legendaries, while there is so much fuss made about the legendary armor. All three of these ask you to complete specific forms of content, some of which can be extremely frustrating - arguably more frustrating than raids (looking at you Ember Bay Mastery).

[MarshallLaw.9260]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before.

> >

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here.

> >

> > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong).

>

> No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever.

 

Not entirely true.

GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink.

 

I recognize that this is not an ideal comparison, but look at mount licence situation. The first time round, there were many who disliked the acquisition method (personally I wasn't bothered). Adjustments were made in line with requests and now there are several threads commending the new system and none against it.

As a for-profit company ANet cannot ignore its clientele. We shouldn't try to be so black and white by saying one is always right and one is always wrong.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before.

> > >

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here.

> > >

> > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong).

> >

> > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever.

>

> Not entirely true.

> GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink.

 

You didn't understand me. I didn't say it's art (it is a form of art, but that's not relevant in the moment). I said players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun. The vast majority of their design ideas would lead to boring and bland games. Games are about restrictions, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before.

> > > >

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here.

> > > >

> > > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong).

> > >

> > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever.

> >

> > Not entirely true.

> > GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink.

>

> You didn't understand me. I didn't say it's art (it is a form of art, but that's not relevant in the moment). I said players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun. The vast majority of their design ideas would lead to boring and bland games. Games are about restrictions, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive.

 

Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun.

 

GW2 strives to be different than your typical mmo, and attempts to remove a lot of the typical “restrictions” in many areas and with many design decisions.

[FrizzFreston.5290]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Now how that works with raids.. well.. we shall see what happens. Right now, focusing on making "Challenging Elite PvE end game content" and then following that up with a half-baked PoF expansion, has set them back around 25 million annually, As Irony would have it, PoF has done around the same in pre-sales as HoT did.. so there is that. Maybe next quarter will be a pull ahead, we shall see.

> >

> > Well if you want to call 5 ish people out of 300 employees focussing on. I suppose youre right. But then they also focussed on rebalancing HoT fractals, making new living world maps, pvp, wvw and the gemstore... which is kinda weird of a definition of "focussing on".

> >

> > Nice scapegoating, I say.

>

> HA HA I see you missed that HoT was an _entire expansion directed at providing "Challenging End Game Content"_, the fact that it went over so poorly they needed to tone it back several times over should have been a warning they were making a mistake here. But here they are with Raids being the only content with a dedicated team and they have made Fractals harder.

 

Yeah, I guess its indeed hilarious using unclear subjective language to confuse people instead of making a valid point... Especially as HoT isnt considered elite content by many. Its not even logical to me to not use.. well "HoT" for all of HoT. Even then, GW2 has many aspects. Naming a few you yourself don't agree with is not sufficient as proof or an actual reason. Or even just naming the expansions alone, doesnt really say anything about what the reason actually is.

 

I think it might just be the change from free updates to expansions that dropped revenue. That has a much bigger impact on how players spend money in the game.

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > Yes. "Think" being the important word here. They _have_ changed their minds about different things before. They have also been wrong about many things before.

> > > > >

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > Sure, everyone makes mistakes. But they aren't wrong here.

> > > > >

> > > > > Right and wrong are social constructs which are constantly shifting and dependent on the position from which somebody views the situation. The game devs are responsible for creating the game, so they can be seen as right, however players populate the game and make up a majority - so are their opinions more valid? Perhaps. (or maybe I'm wrong).

> > > >

> > > > No. Players rarely understand game design, so in this case the popular opinion carries no weight whatsoever.

> > >

> > > Not entirely true.

> > > GW2 is a game created not solely for the artistic purposes, but to also be sold to consumers. Although I strongly believe developers should design a game they would want it to be played, there is always some compromise which needs to be made for economic reasons. If devs were to completely shut off communication with the playerbase, perhaps they would see their returns shrink.

> >

> > You didn't understand me. I didn't say it's art (it is a form of art, but that's not relevant in the moment). I said players rarely understand what makes them actually play a game and have fun. The vast majority of their design ideas would lead to boring and bland games. Games are about restrictions, and that's somewhat counter-intuitive.

>

> Each player knows exactly what they like and dislike about a game, and what they personally find fun.

 

Usually, yes. But mostly post factum. Players tend to make poor assessment of what *would* be fun.

 

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> GW2 strives to be different than your typical mmo, and attempts to remove a lot of the typical “restrictions” in many areas and with many design decisions.

 

You can remove some restrictions, but you introduce other ones. The game won't work otherwise. In the end, what the game gives you aren't rewards. It's the gameplay experience. Rewards are an incentive, and a conclusion. But giving them right away won't feel the same way, would it? These are basics you can't, and shouldn't remove.