Danikat.8537 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 > @"Astral Projections.7320" said: > That’s an interesting question OP. I tried googling horned predators and came up with very little. > > This is my take on horns. Horns appear when the animal doesn’t have fangs to threaten/intimidate others or to defend itself with. Since Charr have fangs it’s unusual that they would also have horns. However it’s biting teeth/meat eating that make a predator so Charr are predators and the horns are an anomaly. It's also possible it's one of those things that simply happens. That's the thing about evolution - it's not planned, it doesn't follow a set pattern or carefully work through every possible combination and select the best (certainly not the most logical). It's driven by random mutation, which means the results can be pretty erratic. It might seem like everything has a logical explanation, but that's because it's what we're used to and because species influence each others evolution so they all end up (mostly) fitting together. Real life horned animals are all relatively closely related. So it's possible that horns just didn't evolve until after that group of herbivores had split off from other species. Otherwise why don't all herbivorous mammals who don't have fangs and need to defend themselves or intimidate other animals have horns? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 > @"Danikat.8537" said: > > @"Astral Projections.7320" said: > > That’s an interesting question OP. I tried googling horned predators and came up with very little. > > > > This is my take on horns. Horns appear when the animal doesn’t have fangs to threaten/intimidate others or to defend itself with. Since Charr have fangs it’s unusual that they would also have horns. However it’s biting teeth/meat eating that make a predator so Charr are predators and the horns are an anomaly. > > It's also possible it's one of those things that simply happens. That's the thing about evolution - it's not planned, it doesn't follow a set pattern or carefully work through every possible combination and select the best (certainly not the most logical). It's driven by random mutation, which means the results can be pretty erratic. It might seem like everything has a logical explanation, but that's because it's what we're used to and because species influence each others evolution so they all end up (mostly) fitting together. > > Real life horned animals are all relatively closely related. So it's possible that horns just didn't evolve until after that group of herbivores had split off from other species. Otherwise why don't all herbivorous mammals who don't have fangs and need to defend themselves or intimidate other animals have horns? While it’s true that horns in mammals are all (mostly) in the two toed ruminate group not all horned animals are of the same genetic grouping. Triceratops is a horned herbivore (in a large group of horned dinosaurs) unrelated to the horned mammals. It also doesn’t invalidate the reason given, that horns appeared in these groups because of lack of fangs to intimidate others. Other, non horned species, might not have the available pathway or the costs might be high, which might explain why horns don’t appear more often outside these groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 expect new title,, after kill several charr and colect their tooth/horns 250 of each, player will be aquired with "Xenophobic" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 It is simple really. As previously mentioned, horns/antlers are a social adaptation. Herd animals (who are the ones to sport them most of the time) are social animals by definition. Predators on the other hand are usually solitary animals (with a few notable exceptions such as lions - which have manes for the same purpose). As such, things like horns were not selected for in survival of the fittest in them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witcher.3197 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Years ago I've read somewhere that charr were supposed to be orcs first, to give humanity an evil they can fight. But that was too generic so they replaced them with "demon cats" (hence the horns) that we now know as charr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danikat.8537 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 > @"witcher.3197" said: > Years ago I've read somewhere that charr were supposed to be orcs first, to give humanity an evil they can fight. But that was too generic so they replaced them with "demon cats" (hence the horns) that we now know as charr. If that's true then it worked out well for me. The charr are one of the things that got me interested in GW1 and it was precisely because they weren't orcs or another standard fantasy race - they were something new and unfamiliar to me and that implied that a degree of thought and creativity had gone into the game. Which was especially important because I was introduced to it as a new MMO around the time WoW was getting really popular and it seemed like every publisher and games studio wanted their own fantasy MMO so there were already at least a few half-hearted copies appearing. Not that I object to orcs or other standard fantasy races, but it's nice to see a change sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liewec.2896 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 dragons have horns, just look at Zhaitan! https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/6d/Zhaitan_render.png is an elder dragon pray? XD what about Wyverns? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/76/Wyvern_spitting_fire.jpg Stoneheads? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/51/Veteran_Stonehead.jpg Vinetooths? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/3/37/Veteran_Mordrem_Vinetooth.jpg XD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi A Spender.5172 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 Someone shown Charr-skinned weapon armour from GW1 once so... I would say they're prey. Might be why the advancement in a lot of weaponry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 > @"Liewec.2896" said: > dragons have horns, > just look at Zhaitan! > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/6d/Zhaitan_render.png > > is an elder dragon pray? XD > > what about Wyverns? > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/76/Wyvern_spitting_fire.jpg > Stoneheads? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/51/Veteran_Stonehead.jpg > Vinetooths? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/3/37/Veteran_Mordrem_Vinetooth.jpg > > XD It's the rule of cool...or in this context, rule of intimidating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayumi A Spender.5172 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 > @"Liewec.2896" said: > dragons have horns, > just look at Zhaitan! > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/6d/Zhaitan_render.png > > is an elder dragon pray? XD > > what about Wyverns? > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/76/Wyvern_spitting_fire.jpg > Stoneheads? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/51/Veteran_Stonehead.jpg > Vinetooths? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/3/37/Veteran_Mordrem_Vinetooth.jpg > > XD Well seeing how we go after them specifically... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubberduckgillespie.9854 Posted January 21, 2018 Share Posted January 21, 2018 > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > @"Blur.3465" said: > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > they do have tails :| i heard the priory or whatever their called, liked to collect dargon tails. > > > > > > > > > > True, they do. > > > > > Charr have horns and tails, I better watch out with my Charr. All these trophy hunters, mhm. xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > And furr.... Charr Coat : Reduces damage by 20% from Charr's. > > > > > > Wasn't there a thing about humans making armour/clothing out of Charr in GW1? > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > is also has it prestige version: > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > and: > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Hide > > That's so friggin' messed up in retrospect, LOL. Well considering Charr used to eat some of their captured humans in GW1, I'd say turnabout is fair play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo G.4501 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Rubberduckgillespie.9854" said: > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > @"Blur.3465" said: > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > they do have tails :| i heard the priory or whatever their called, liked to collect dargon tails. > > > > > > > > > > > > True, they do. > > > > > > Charr have horns and tails, I better watch out with my Charr. All these trophy hunters, mhm. xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And furr.... Charr Coat : Reduces damage by 20% from Charr's. > > > > > > > > Wasn't there a thing about humans making armour/clothing out of Charr in GW1? > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > is also has it prestige version: > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > and: > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Hide > > > > That's so friggin' messed up in retrospect, LOL. > > Well considering Charr used to eat some of their captured humans in GW1, I'd say turnabout is fair play. Why did they capture humans at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alga.6498 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > @"Rubberduckgillespie.9854" said: > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > @"Blur.3465" said: > > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > they do have tails :| i heard the priory or whatever their called, liked to collect dargon tails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, they do. > > > > > > > Charr have horns and tails, I better watch out with my Charr. All these trophy hunters, mhm. xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And furr.... Charr Coat : Reduces damage by 20% from Charr's. > > > > > > > > > > Wasn't there a thing about humans making armour/clothing out of Charr in GW1? > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > is also has it prestige version: > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > and: > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Hide > > > > > > That's so friggin' messed up in retrospect, LOL. > > > > Well considering Charr used to eat some of their captured humans in GW1, I'd say turnabout is fair play. > > Why did they capture humans at all? Using them as baits to lure more humans into their traps, using them as slaves, probably. I never recall any Charrs back in GW1 actually ate any humans more than just killed them, vice versa with humans. Now I do enjoy equipped the Charr Hide Armor as a trophy for these foul creatures. Nevertheless, I say we kill these so called _''predators''_ or _''prey''_ and be done with it! For Ascalon! For Kryta! Let's make Ascalon great again! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rubberduckgillespie.9854 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Alga.6498" said: > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > @"Rubberduckgillespie.9854" said: > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > @"Blur.3465" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > > they do have tails :| i heard the priory or whatever their called, liked to collect dargon tails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, they do. > > > > > > > > Charr have horns and tails, I better watch out with my Charr. All these trophy hunters, mhm. xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And furr.... Charr Coat : Reduces damage by 20% from Charr's. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wasn't there a thing about humans making armour/clothing out of Charr in GW1? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > > > is also has it prestige version: > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > > > and: > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Hide > > > > > > > > That's so friggin' messed up in retrospect, LOL. > > > > > > Well considering Charr used to eat some of their captured humans in GW1, I'd say turnabout is fair play. > > > > Why did they capture humans at all? > > Using them as baits to lure more humans into their traps, using them as slaves, probably. I never recall any Charrs back in GW1 actually ate any humans more than just killed them, vice versa with humans. Now I do enjoy equipped the Charr Hide Armor as a trophy for these foul creatures. > Nevertheless, I say we kill these so called _''predators''_ or _''prey''_ and be done with it! For Ascalon! For Kryta! Let's make Ascalon great again! I like the way you think! Lol! In eye of the North one of the Charr in pyre fierceshot's war band complains about a "no humans diet" after they become your allies, that's pretty much what I base my belief that Charr at least occasionally ate their human captives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alga.6498 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Rubberduckgillespie.9854" said: > > @"Alga.6498" said: > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > @"Rubberduckgillespie.9854" said: > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Blur.3465" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > > > they do have tails :| i heard the priory or whatever their called, liked to collect dargon tails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, they do. > > > > > > > > > Charr have horns and tails, I better watch out with my Charr. All these trophy hunters, mhm. xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And furr.... Charr Coat : Reduces damage by 20% from Charr's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wasn't there a thing about humans making armour/clothing out of Charr in GW1? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > > > > > is also has it prestige version: > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > > > > > and: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Hide > > > > > > > > > > That's so friggin' messed up in retrospect, LOL. > > > > > > > > Well considering Charr used to eat some of their captured humans in GW1, I'd say turnabout is fair play. > > > > > > Why did they capture humans at all? > > > > Using them as baits to lure more humans into their traps, using them as slaves, probably. I never recall any Charrs back in GW1 actually ate any humans more than just killed them, vice versa with humans. Now I do enjoy equipped the Charr Hide Armor as a trophy for these foul creatures. > > Nevertheless, I say we kill these so called _''predators''_ or _''prey''_ and be done with it! For Ascalon! For Kryta! Let's make Ascalon great again! > > I like the way you think! Lol! > In eye of the North one of the Charr in pyre fierceshot's war band complains about a "no humans diet" after they become your allies, that's pretty much what I base my belief that Charr at least occasionally ate their human captives. Yeah that too, aswell they kept calling humans ''_mouses_''. I guess that was the only thing I was referring them eating humans as the Charrs were big cats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noa.7490 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"witcher.3197" said: > Years ago I've read somewhere that charr were supposed to be orcs first, to give humanity an evil they can fight. But that was too generic so they replaced them with "demon cats" (hence the horns) that we now know as charr. Exactly that. But not only "Orc" was too generic but also widely used in a variety of other games. In Guild Wars they were shown to be quite barbaric, using humans as food but also as a source of cruel amusement (you witness this in Eye of the North in the segment when you play as Gwen escaping the Charr). So in essence, the Charr are carnivorous but the horns was only added in the blender of attributes to make them look evil and demonic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westenev.5289 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 I like how the OP forgets that while herbivores don't eat meat, they do fight viciously to protect their territory when push comes to shove. Herbivores are in no way passive creatures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embered.5089 Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Liewec.2896" said: > dragons have horns, > just look at Zhaitan! > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/6d/Zhaitan_render.png > what about Wyverns? > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/76/Wyvern_spitting_fire.jpg > Stoneheads? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/51/Veteran_Stonehead.jpg > Vinetooths? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/3/37/Veteran_Mordrem_Vinetooth.jpg Dragons and wyverns (which I think of as mini-dragons) are weird things that in other stories have died out long ago (and are currently dying in Tyria... as we kill them :D). Obviously, their horns are doing little to protect them and evolutionary become moot. (And dragons live a long time and rarely breed, so their evolution is particularly slow). Stoneheads, I think, are actually "prey". They're just very stoney prey, like other animals are leathery prey. It protects them =P Vinetooths... I have no idea. I have no idea what they are. > @"Westenev.5289" said: > I like how the OP forgets that while herbivores don't eat meat, they do fight viciously to protect their territory when push comes to shove. Herbivores are in no way passive creatures. That wasn't the point :/ The horns are used for territory, yes--but the Charrs don't use them that way. They don't use them at all. (And the prey don't use their horns to fight off their predators, only to fight other males of their own.) Edit: So far, the best answer that I like is that Charrs are currently predators. That they might’ve used their horns once before when they were more prey-like, and still keep their horns due to social/mating selection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndigoSundown.5419 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Charr eat meat, and so are predators. As to the horns, I suspect were we able to ask, they've quote Worf: "We do not discuss it with outsiders." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frostfang.5109 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Elephants have tusks- not horns. And tusks are actually giant teeth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Alga.6498" said: > > @"Rubberduckgillespie.9854" said: > > > @"Alga.6498" said: > > > > @"Leo G.4501" said: > > > > > @"Rubberduckgillespie.9854" said: > > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > @"Oglaf.1074" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Blur.3465" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > > > > > > > > they do have tails :| i heard the priory or whatever their called, liked to collect dargon tails. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > True, they do. > > > > > > > > > > Charr have horns and tails, I better watch out with my Charr. All these trophy hunters, mhm. xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And furr.... Charr Coat : Reduces damage by 20% from Charr's. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wasn't there a thing about humans making armour/clothing out of Charr in GW1? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > is also has it prestige version: > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Warrior_Elite_Charr_Hide_armor > > > > > > > > > > > > > > and: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Charr_Hide > > > > > > > > > > > > That's so friggin' messed up in retrospect, LOL. > > > > > > > > > > Well considering Charr used to eat some of their captured humans in GW1, I'd say turnabout is fair play. > > > > > > > > Why did they capture humans at all? > > > > > > Using them as baits to lure more humans into their traps, using them as slaves, probably. I never recall any Charrs back in GW1 actually ate any humans more than just killed them, vice versa with humans. Now I do enjoy equipped the Charr Hide Armor as a trophy for these foul creatures. > > > Nevertheless, I say we kill these so called _''predators''_ or _''prey''_ and be done with it! For Ascalon! For Kryta! Let's make Ascalon great again! > > > > I like the way you think! Lol! > > In eye of the North one of the Charr in pyre fierceshot's war band complains about a "no humans diet" after they become your allies, that's pretty much what I base my belief that Charr at least occasionally ate their human captives. > > Yeah that too, aswell they kept calling humans ''_mouses_''. I guess that was the only thing I was referring them eating humans as the Charrs were big cats. OMG, Pyre Fieceshot quotes... "What do u want meat????" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just a flesh wound.3589 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Embered.5089" said: > > @"Liewec.2896" said: > > dragons have horns, > > just look at Zhaitan! > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/6/6d/Zhaitan_render.png > > what about Wyverns? > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/7/76/Wyvern_spitting_fire.jpg > > Stoneheads? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/5/51/Veteran_Stonehead.jpg > > Vinetooths? https://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/3/37/Veteran_Mordrem_Vinetooth.jpg > > Dragons and wyverns (which I think of as mini-dragons) are weird things that in other stories have died out long ago (and are currently dying in Tyria... as we kill them :D). Obviously, their horns are doing little to protect them and evolutionary become moot. (And dragons live a long time and rarely breed, so their evolution is particularly slow). > Stoneheads, I think, are actually "prey". They're just very stoney prey, like other animals are leathery prey. It protects them =P > Vinetooths... I have no idea. I have no idea what they are. > > > @"Westenev.5289" said: > > I like how the OP forgets that while herbivores don't eat meat, they do fight viciously to protect their territory when push comes to shove. Herbivores are in no way passive creatures. > That wasn't the point :/ The horns are used for territory, yes--but the Charrs don't use them that way. They don't use them at all. (And the prey don't use their horns to fight off their predators, only to fight other males of their own.) > > Edit: So far, the best answer that I like is that Charrs are currently predators. That they might’ve used their horns once before when they were more prey-like, and still keep their horns due to social/mating selection. _And the prey don't use their horns to fight off their predators, only to fight other males of their own.)_ Water buffalo will use their horns on lions, so whether they do or don’t use horns as defense probably depends more on their size and aggressiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westenev.5289 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Well, Charr do eat meat (and presumably strawberries) based on the events of Diessa Platau - so I assume they're omnivores, like every major race of Tyria. That being said, their feline teeth and lack of molars do lean towards a carniverous diet. So… that would make them hunters and gatherers, right? If you want to be technical, Dragons, Devourers and who knows what else prey on all of the "major races" of Tyria - so they are also prey. I think the horns are wholey irrelivant in this regard, since you don't use horns to eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Embered.5089 Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 > @"Westenev.5289" said: > So… that would make them hunters and gatherers, right? Bears and wolves will also eat nuts and berries when they need to, but I don’t think that they’re considered hunter-gatherers. > If you want to be technical, Dragons, Devourers and who knows what else prey on all of the "major races" of Tyria - so they are also prey. A point that I’ve seen many people make >.> my question in itself was funny, so I can’t really make a logical argument. But if I wanted to argue, I’d say that my usage of “prey” and “predator” in this thread is a lot more general. They correspond more to how high up in the food chain the animals are, rather than solely if they’re eaten by anything. > I think the horns are wholey irrelivant in this regard, since you don't use horns to eat. Nothing uses horns to eat. However in irl, horns are associated with prey animals while predator animals noticeably lack them—and will instead have fangs and claws, which prey lack. Edit: see two comments below Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oglaf.1074 Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 As we’ve been saying that is not really a prey v. predator thing but more of a social herd animal v. lone predator animal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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