Diatribe on Joko and his purpose in the LWS4 story. Ep 3 Spoilers.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I think the OoS will use Reedemer Kossan as a figure head or a new Turai to rally the people again. If you go look at his dialogue back in the Desolation.

> They might try, but if they try to manipulate the political situation too much the Commander will likely step in and put a smack down on them.

>

> I doubt the Commander would appreciate the OoS trying to replace a tyrant with a puppet.

>

OoS, could end up being a possible enemy, later, however I imagine Kossan will help rally the people either during a Kralkatorrik campaign, which most likely start up next episode or afterwards as the new Warmarshal of Elona.

 

Edit: posting the dialogue here.

 

Redeemer Kossan: I still believe we can restore Elona to its former glory.

Keeper Pamir: Keep hold of that belief. You'll need it in the coming days.

Keeper Pamir: There's one more thing I need from you, once we get control from the aftermath of the Awakened, Forged, and Branded.

Keeper Pamir: Elona will need a hero to unite them. Elona needs you to be that hero, Kossan.

Redeemer Kossan: That is quite a weight to carry. But Elona calls, and my family has a long history of answering that call.

Keeper Pamir: The Order of Shadows and the people of Elona will be with you. Remember the motto of the Sunspears

Redeemer Kossan: You never fight alone.

 

[Randulf.7614]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> I loved that ending speech of his. But honestly? It should have ended with him going something along the lines of: "You may be able to beat me in raw strength. But you can't kill me. But I? I can kill you, Commander. And in all honesty, I probably should, with all the damage you've done. But I won't. I won't because I enjoy this. Taking your glory, watching you flounder about as you ruin the world you try oh so desperately to save." And then leave through a portal. For him to put his nation at risk for the sake of petty revenge, to watch his own commanders fall and laugh about not re-Awakening them, to fight the Commander and talk about being nemesis to each other, to prove that they really are immortal, and to have the Commander at his fingertips... and then to spare him. To leave. Consider the massive psychological blow that would have been.

>

> (Seems I did get lengthy... And yet I could have gone about four times longer).

>

> I think the most annoying thing is that all my greatest S3 and S4 disappointments come from the same LW team. S3E3, S3E6, and now S4E3. The third team.

 

Some great ideas in here. And had noticed the same about E3 and E6

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> Also that illusion ring just being left there, it could have been Joko, but he also never made any mention of leaving anything to 'help' the Commander. Maybe planted there by someone else?

If you hit a laser about 10 times, Joko gets annoyed and yells at the Commander to use the magical ring he left for him.

 

The entire illusion trap was just a game for Joko. He never intended for the Commander to be stuck or even slowed (much) by it. It was just him trolling the Commander and getting laughs before a confrontation.

 

> @"CETheLucid.3964" said:

> I don't think we've seen the last of Palawa Joko.

>

> If we had actually killed him his awakened would have dropped dead, not merely enter a state of stupor. That means the power that keeps them (Joko) remains. Lich Lords are notoriously hard to be rid of. They have what's called a phylactery.

 

Firstly, that's D&D liches. Not GW liches. GW liches do not have phylacteries. Instead, their souls are bound within their bodies, and must be forcibly torn out to be killed (we see this with Khilbron and the need to slay him atop of a Bloodstone which would rip his soul out of his body upon "death", otherwise he just comes right back; this is also akin to how we kill Fendi Nin, who has lich-like powers).

 

Secondly, the Awakened do not drop dead, but they are perfectly stunned (and would recover in time). This is the very same as when Khilbron was killed - the Orrian undead of GW1 remained after Khilbron's death, and eventually went underground to be found in the Depths of Tyria in Eye of the North, but they lost their grand organization, and were largely able to be wiped out of Kryta.

[Eekasqueak.7850]

It would make sense that a magic eating dragon is one way to end a lich. It was foreshadowed that Joko's plan never accounted for Aurene, no doubt his death will create a lot of chaos for us to clean up, which ties in with his speech about all the chaos the PC keeps making. So, really the circumstances are fitting in my opinion.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> It would make sense that a magic eating dragon is one way to end a lich. It was foreshadowed that Joko's plan never accounted for Aurene, no doubt his death will create a lot of chaos for us to clean up, which ties in with his speech about all the chaos the PC keeps making. So, really the circumstances are fitting in my opinion.

 

Well what could happen is that Aurene gets a little indigestion, which then requires us to get more background info on where Joko got his power from. Anet seems to like to give a lot of additional details to characters, postmortem. Could require us to go back into the Desolation and maybe north of Kourna to Joko’s monument. Also having to wade through Branded as well.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

>

> Thirdly, you kill him off right a one hell of a massive reveal about his character, while also heavily hinting (to the point of practically promising) out of the game to go into his background, yet never do. Now that he is dead, why would we bother plot wise? It's just like Balthazar and his apparent "[real motivations](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/494488/#Comment_494488 "real motivations")" that never got delved into. You just hinted that not only did he know from the beginning the importance of the Elder Dragons, but suggest in his dialogue that he has lived long enough to see the gods and dragons "come and go". Which just makes players **BEG** to know just _who is he?_ And then you kill him off. And we will go into his backstory...why? Who cares (in-game), he's dead now.

>

 

I suppose it’s still possible to find out his background if Aurene has some sort of magical food poisoning.

 

[Eekasqueak.7850]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > It would make sense that a magic eating dragon is one way to end a lich. It was foreshadowed that Joko's plan never accounted for Aurene, no doubt his death will create a lot of chaos for us to clean up, which ties in with his speech about all the chaos the PC keeps making. So, really the circumstances are fitting in my opinion.

>

> Well what could happen is that Aurene gets a little indigestion, which then requires us to get more background info on where Joko got his power from. Anet seems to like to give a lot of additional details to characters, postmortem. Could require us to go back into the Desolation and maybe north of Kourna to Joko’s monument. Also having to wade through Branded as well.

 

Yeah we'll probably get his backstory now that he's dead for good (probably) also I'm half expecting the order of shadows to turn out to be evil or something and take advantage of the power vacuum he leaves behind.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > It would make sense that a magic eating dragon is one way to end a lich. It was foreshadowed that Joko's plan never accounted for Aurene, no doubt his death will create a lot of chaos for us to clean up, which ties in with his speech about all the chaos the PC keeps making. So, really the circumstances are fitting in my opinion.

> >

> > Well what could happen is that Aurene gets a little indigestion, which then requires us to get more background info on where Joko got his power from. Anet seems to like to give a lot of additional details to characters, postmortem. Could require us to go back into the Desolation and maybe north of Kourna to Joko’s monument. Also having to wade through Branded as well.

>

> Yeah we'll probably get his backstory now that he's dead for good (probably) also I'm half expecting the order of shadows to turn out to be evil or something and take advantage of the power vacuum he leaves behind.

 

I kinda suspect this as well given how shady ( no pun intended) some of the large letter collections regarding the OoS.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > It would make sense that a magic eating dragon is one way to end a lich. It was foreshadowed that Joko's plan never accounted for Aurene, no doubt his death will create a lot of chaos for us to clean up, which ties in with his speech about all the chaos the PC keeps making. So, really the circumstances are fitting in my opinion.

> > >

> > > Well what could happen is that Aurene gets a little indigestion, which then requires us to get more background info on where Joko got his power from. Anet seems to like to give a lot of additional details to characters, postmortem. Could require us to go back into the Desolation and maybe north of Kourna to Joko’s monument. Also having to wade through Branded as well.

> >

> > Yeah we'll probably get his backstory now that he's dead for good (probably) also I'm half expecting the order of shadows to turn out to be evil or something and take advantage of the power vacuum he leaves behind.

>

> I kinda suspect this as well given how shady ( no pun intended) some of the large letter collections regarding the OoS.

>

Did we ever find out what happened to Joko’s Wurm general? I noticed we faught Olgi as a Legendary bounty.

 

[ugrakarma.9416]

The **complete absence** of the Order of Shadows in the episode is quite remarkable.

Remains to know if it was a writes fail or something also deliberately made for a future Plot Setup.

 

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> The **complete absence** of the Order of Shadows in the episode is quite remarkable.

> Remains to know if it was a writes fail or something also deliberately made for a future Plot Setup.

Well there is the standard OoS rep manning he bounty board in the middle of the allied camp.

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"ugrakarma.9416" said:

> The **complete absence** of the Order of Shadows in the episode is quite remarkable.

> Remains to know if it was a writes fail or something also deliberately made for a future Plot Setup.

>

>

Mind you what did OoS really do during Balthazar’s campaign? Send a few agents to guard the mouth of torment from the Forged armies.

 

They like to watch from the shadows.

[Bast.7253]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > > It would make sense that a magic eating dragon is one way to end a lich. It was foreshadowed that Joko's plan never accounted for Aurene, no doubt his death will create a lot of chaos for us to clean up, which ties in with his speech about all the chaos the PC keeps making. So, really the circumstances are fitting in my opinion.

> > > >

> > > > Well what could happen is that Aurene gets a little indigestion, which then requires us to get more background info on where Joko got his power from. Anet seems to like to give a lot of additional details to characters, postmortem. Could require us to go back into the Desolation and maybe north of Kourna to Joko’s monument. Also having to wade through Branded as well.

> > >

> > > Yeah we'll probably get his backstory now that he's dead for good (probably) also I'm half expecting the order of shadows to turn out to be evil or something and take advantage of the power vacuum he leaves behind.

> >

> > I kinda suspect this as well given how shady ( no pun intended) some of the large letter collections regarding the OoS.

> >

> Did we ever find out what happened to Joko’s Wurm general? I noticed we faught Olgi as a Legendary bounty.

>

 

Isn't the wurm general the one we fought in the instance before Joko? Or was that a different general? I can't remember them too well.

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"cptaylor.2670" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > > > @"Eekasqueak.7850" said:

> > > > > > It would make sense that a magic eating dragon is one way to end a lich. It was foreshadowed that Joko's plan never accounted for Aurene, no doubt his death will create a lot of chaos for us to clean up, which ties in with his speech about all the chaos the PC keeps making. So, really the circumstances are fitting in my opinion.

> > > > >

> > > > > Well what could happen is that Aurene gets a little indigestion, which then requires us to get more background info on where Joko got his power from. Anet seems to like to give a lot of additional details to characters, postmortem. Could require us to go back into the Desolation and maybe north of Kourna to Joko’s monument. Also having to wade through Branded as well.

> > > >

> > > > Yeah we'll probably get his backstory now that he's dead for good (probably) also I'm half expecting the order of shadows to turn out to be evil or something and take advantage of the power vacuum he leaves behind.

> > >

> > > I kinda suspect this as well given how shady ( no pun intended) some of the large letter collections regarding the OoS.

> > >

> > Did we ever find out what happened to Joko’s Wurm general? I noticed we faught Olgi as a Legendary bounty.

> >

>

> Isn't the wurm general the one we fought in the instance before Joko? Or was that a different general? I can't remember them too well.

>

>

That was the beast marshall. Troop Marshall is a legendary bounty.

 

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Nah, the one we fought in the palace was the Beastmarshal. Wurmmarshal should still be out there somewhere... not a surprise, since it'd be a massive undertaking to get the junundu to southern Kourna, and they wouldn't be able to contribute much when they arrived. (Not to mention that they were apparently the hardest hit during the war against the Forged. I don't know how long it takes for a wurm to grow large enough to be useful, but it'd make sense that they haven't been able to rebuild that force yet.)

[Ayakaru.6583]

I was able to write most of as the usual silliness of anet, but the whole "I died once, so I'm immune to the plague" stuff?

Quaggan man .. resurrection doesn't make you immortal.. otherwise GW1 would be chokfull of immortals

[ThatOddOne.4387]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> > @"ThatOddOne.4387" said:

> > Also that illusion ring just being left there, it could have been Joko, but he also never made any mention of leaving anything to 'help' the Commander. Maybe planted there by someone else?

> If you hit a laser about 10 times, Joko gets annoyed and yells at the Commander to use the magical ring he left for him.

>

> The entire illusion trap was just a game for Joko. He never intended for the Commander to be stuck or even slowed (much) by it. It was just him trolling the Commander and getting laughs before a confrontation.

 

Thought so. Just thought it could have been a possibility. I didn't see it because I didn't fail that many times. :P

 

> I was able to write most of as the usual silliness of anet, but the whole "I died once, so I'm immune to the plague" stuff?

 

Now THIS I'm still chalking up to a bit of a God-meddling for human characters. As I said, it's oddly specific.

[castlemanic.3198]

So a couple of things.

 

First, I did enjoy this episode overall, I think it worked pretty well as a semi isolated release. It pulled off of the inquest experiments from episode 2 pretty well, showing that only humans were viable hosts etc. So in essence humans being the only target kind of ish works in that sense. Joko's death, the build up to it, and even Joko's personality for someone who hasn't experienced his persona in the original Guild Wars worked (I've started that game though, so I'll eventually get to see all the main story points and Joko in his prime).

 

Second, the draconis ex machina, as Konig put it, felt appropriate to me with the way that Joko's humorous personality exuded. As a whole, Joko became _so_ much more sinister with his humour alongside all his threats. It really worked great in my opinion and I know some won't share that opinion.

 

Third, this episode happened too soon. I agree with everyone that we absolutely needed more time with Joko. The final confrontation needed to happen later, after we'd established and found some things about his past, explored other parts of the desert and discovered something crucial to his defeat or that he was indeed immortal by all standards. After establishing that, then this episode could have been released almost unaltered.

 

Fourth, Konig mentioned the Vabbian Sunspears and the griffons, and I think the only reason they weren't included was because the griffons are gated behind a huge gold sink and some collections, one of which was a specific bounty in Crystal Oasis. I do agree that their omission is a mistake, specifically because they had time to rally the Olmakhan charr, which would have given them plenty of time for the Vabbian sunspears to ride on Griffon-back to Kourna if we're looking at it from a logistical viewpoint. But ultimately, some players are unlikely to have gotten the griffon and for them, the Vabbian sunspears would have made no sense if they appeared as a default, they could have technically appeared as a last minute ally in the final instance, but again any living humans were relegated to the main camp, so it wouldn't have made sense for the griffons to make this massive entrance and then be told "thanks but please stand back cause plague". As the story was told, there isn't really much that the griffon riding sunspears could have done, but I wish _some_ sort of mention was put into the story for the players that completed the collection.

 

Fifth, I agree with everyone saying where are marjory and kasmeer. After making their grand entrance at the end of the PoF story, them not appearing at _all_ during this segment of the story, the final confrontation, is a mistake. I do agree that we needed an impactful death too, which should have happened after the potential reveal of Joko's true immortality or something like that (assuming this episode was released even one episode later).

 

Sixth, Konig also mentioned that Joko said he "saw dragons and gods come and go". I think this was purely based on what we've experienced in Guild Wars 2. Joko learned of the arrival of all these dragons, and that two of them have gone, Balthazar came and was slain. Plus, Joko had also awakened many inquest and could have learned about the world's magical destablization from that or from his interaction with Balthazar (and thus why Balthazar had imprisoned him in the Domain of the Lost when Joko found the destruction of Tyria most disagreeable). But the way that the dialogue is presented DOES make it seem like Joko is truly some immortal lich that can possibly be older than the previous rise of dragons, and while it would make sense if Joko was human to have learned all these things from recent endeavours, it's FAR more interesting if Joko had literally witnessed the coming and going of Elder Dragons, especially from previous dragon rises, and also the coming and going of Gods too (Dhuum's replacement, The replacement of whoever Abaddon usurped, Kormir's ascension, possibly others we don't know about, maybe even the first of the human gods stepping onto Tyria from the mists).

[eduardo.1436]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> I think the most annoying thing is that all my greatest S3 and S4 disappointments come from the same LW team. S3E3, S3E6, and now S4E3. The third team.

 

I'm really wondering if Team 3 needs help from the other teams?

 

LW 3 ep 3 "Crack in the Ice" there's berry farm, the map is cool.....but the main story in the bigger plot (Caudecus being white mantle confessor, Lazarus coming back, and 2 dragons being active) is laughable! Get a sample from a jormag dragon minion that also has plantdeath magic. that story part is invalidated in episode 5 when its revealed Taimi and her krewe captured 1 of each dragon minion.......why not sent that krewe in the 1st place? Instead of us wandering around looking for a minion let's go look for Braham. And we all know the backlash Braham STILL HAS because the writers decided to have blame us for his personal-mommy issues despite him having get it over with at the end of HoT.

 

LW 3 ep 6 the map is fine the story is a clusterpudding, bad bad bad

 

LW 4 ep 3 the map is fine, beetle is worth it. The META, however, is lackluster, really hope they tweak it. The story was fine imo loved Faren's arc and make the olmahkan matter instead of being a single race episode.....but it kinda shows the disconnect between the teams. Where is Logan and the Pact? as others have said why does the plague affect only humans when charr, moas, chiya, and karka were dead being experimented on? The cinematic was incredible and dont mind the way Joko was killed....but I wish he would've lasted at least 1 more episode. On the other hand I am excited for the future on faithful elonians, what will the awakened do now? Kralkatorrik? Is Joko story really over or will he get the Vlast treatment?

 

 

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"eduardo.1436" said:

> I'm really wondering if Team 3 needs help from the other teams?

>

> LW 3 ep 3 "Crack in the Ice" there's berry farm, the map is cool.....but the main story in the bigger plot (Caudecus being white mantle confessor, Lazarus coming back, and 2 dragons being active) is laughable! Get a sample from a jormag dragon minion that also has plantdeath magic. that story part is invalidated in episode 5 when its revealed Taimi and her krewe captured 1 of each dragon minion.......why not sent that krewe in the 1st place? Instead of us wandering around looking for a minion let's go look for Braham. And we all know the backlash Braham STILL HAS because the writers decided to have blame us for his personal-mommy issues despite him having get it over with at the end of HoT.

>

> LW 3 ep 6 the map is fine the story is a clusterpudding, bad bad bad

>

> LW 4 ep 3 the map is fine, beetle is worth it. The META, however, is lackluster, really hope they tweak it. The story was fine imo loved Faren's arc and make the olmahkan matter instead of being a single race episode.....but it kinda shows the disconnect between the teams. Where is Logan and the Pact? as others have said why does the plague affect only humans when charr, moas, chiya, and karka were dead being experimented on? The cinematic was incredible and dont mind the way Joko was killed....but I wish he would've lasted at least 1 more episode. On the other hand I am excited for the future on faithful elonians, what will the awakened do now? Kralkatorrik? Is Joko story really over or will he get the Vlast treatment?

I have never understood the dislike of Episodes 3 and 6.

 

As for LWS4EP3, Rytlock mentions back in episode 1 that hes going to tell Logan and the Pact to mobilize against Joko's forces that are invading Tyria, so we can focus dealing with stuff down here in Elona. Logan is taking care of business up north. Not to mention, the Pact's forces are still in shambles after Mordremoth's destruction of the fleet, even if he wanted to ,he can't just send a huge army to Elona.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> I have never understood the dislike of Episodes 3 and 6.

 

From a mechanical viewpoint, the story instances of Episode 3 were literally "AoE Circle Clusterfuck combined with invincible boss after invincible boss after invincible boss". Which is boring as fuck gameplay.

 

From a lore viewpoint, not only do the maps make no sense (Bitterfrost literally landlocked the four Sanctuaries so how the hell did they get there?!? Siren's Landing, as I mentioned, turned the Arah Armada seen in the dungeon Mursaat path landlocked by waterfall and an area the size of a sixth of the continent that was apparently never known to exist until after the Cataclysm wrecked some magic, so how did cartographers ever map that portion of Orr, how did the navy get into/out of Arah, and how could humans avoid an entire sixth of their country for over a thousand years?!?), but the storytelling themselves is annoying. Firstly, with the Unstable Abomination in E3, which has plant magic and death magic as volatile opposites, despite the fact that Mordremoth apparently ate Zhaitan's magic willy nilly with no harm; secondly, with the whole Shining Blade initiation that needlessly bound our character to the secrets of the SB, and Lazarus' poor treatment for GW1 fans (I know you think any villain that isn't a god or dragon is so subpar they're only worth a singular episode to culminate their plot, but next to no one else thinks such Sajuuk, especially GW1 fans).

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

> @"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

> From a mechanical viewpoint, the story instances of Episode 3 were literally "AoE Circle kitten combined with invincible boss after invincible boss after invincible boss". Which is boring as kitten gameplay.

Welcome to every post release boss fight, all of which have been god-awful except the Balthazar and Herald fights.

 

>From a lore viewpoint, not only do the maps make no sense (Bitterfrost literally landlocked the four Sanctuaries so how the hell did they get there?!?

Same way they got there previous despite the area being landlocked with no entrance or exit to any body of water except Frostgorge. They came from the northern Oceans! Which should mean they would be parked in the river delta north of Divinity's Reach, not in the Shiverpeaks.

 

>Siren's Landing, as I mentioned, turned the Arah Armada seen in the dungeon Mursaat path landlocked by waterfall and an area the size of a sixth of the continent that was apparently never known to exist until after the Cataclysm wrecked some magic, so how did cartographers ever map that portion of Orr, how did the navy get into/out of Arah, and how could humans avoid an entire sixth of their country for over a thousand years?!?)

Again, the location of the Arah armada never made sense, and there was never any sort of logical water route out of where it was, as the whole area was just land even before Siren's landing.

 

>Firstly, with the Unstable Abomination in E3, which has plant magic and death magic as volatile opposites, despite the fact that Mordremoth apparently ate Zhaitan's magic willy nilly with no harm;

We never really saw Mordremoth use death magic though. Having the power, and making a creature that uses both, and thus, has instabilities because of it, are different things entirely.

 

>secondly, with the whole Shining Blade initiation that needlessly bound our character to the secrets of the SB, and Lazarus' poor treatment for GW1 fans

Being a long time G1 player myself, I found Lazarus got treated well, far better then he should have honestly. Back in Gw1 the Mursaat were reduced to generic, run of the mill, mooks late game in Proph, Lazarus himself got treated especially like a wimp, literally pulling "I'll get you next time Gadget!" line after we messed up his aspects.

 

The fact that the boss fight even lasted as long as it did is a testimate to how much they buffed up Lazarus for seemingly no reason beyond to cater to GW1 fans expectations that Mursaat are powerful, when even back in gW1 they weren't tat much once you got past their tricks.

 

>(I know you think any villain that isn't a god or dragon is so subpar they're only worth a singular episode to culminate their plot, but next to no one else thinks such Sajuuk, especially GW1 fans).

Wow Koing, I knew you were prone to massive strawmaning, but this is ridiculous. I never once made such a claim. I only ever said they weren't the main villains of this plot line, and thus, wouldn't get the same development as the dragons did. If you recall, in my previous speculation, I expected Joko to escape Gandra, and retreat to Jahai, and us defeat him there, brining his lasting presence to four episodes. I also had no problem with the time spent on Scarlett and Caudicus.

 

Why you feel the need to constantly lie to a blatant level is beyond me, but it speaks poorly of your intent.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Welcome to every post release boss fight, all of which have been god-awful except the Balthazar and Herald fights.

Quality of the fight, something very objective, aside, there have been very few "completely invulnerable except for a very specific mechanic" bosses, and **none** of them were one right after the other.

 

> @"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:

> Oceans! Which should mean they would be parked in the river delta north of Divinity's Reach, not in the Shiverpeaks.

The original lore was that they arrived via the inland sea made by Jormag in the Far Shiverpeaks. But that is now landlocked from both Bitterfrost's lake and Frostgorge's sound.

 

> Again, the location of the Arah armada never made sense, and there was never any sort of logical water route out of where it was, as the whole area was just land even before Siren's landing.

 

There was a river on the world map, disconnected by your mechanical borders of zones (which held no sway on lore). Now it's a series of pipes and a waterfall that gets water from... nowhere.

 

> We never really saw Mordremoth use death magic though. Having the power, and making a creature that uses both, and thus, has instabilities because of it, are different things entirely.

It's more the fact that when plant larvae were exposed to death magic, they exploded; and vice versa. By this logic, mordrem and sylvari exposed to Zhaitan's magic should have exploded, and risen exposed to Mordremoth magic should have exploded.

 

> Wow Koing, I knew you were prone to massive strawmaning, but this is ridiculous. I never once made such a claim. I only ever said they weren't the main villains of this plot line, and thus, wouldn't get the same development as the dragons did. If you recall, in my previous speculation, I expected Joko to escape Gandra, and retreat to Jahai, and us defeat him there, brining his lasting presence to four episodes. I also had no problem with the time spent on Scarlett and Caudicus.

>

> Why you feel the need to constantly lie to a blatant level is beyond me, but it speaks poorly of your intent.

 

I may have exaggerated, but exageration is not strawmaning, not even close. You've stated time and time again that neither Lazarus nor Joko were main plot adversaries, because they were not gods or dragons.

 

Yes, you expected Joko to last one more episode, but that doesn't change the fact that you've stated a multitude of times that if they weren't god or dragon, they're not a primary plot villain. Even went so far as to claim Scarlet wasn't a primary villain (even though she very much was).

[Zenith.7301]

Anet writing is obsessed with the gags and jokes. Constantly using idioms in dialogue that sound as if the characters from Tyria were from some MTV show.

 

The death of Joko was the biggest joke of all.

 

So you mean to tell me that he can paralyze the commander and Braham almost dead and somehow Aurene gets in magically and eats him?

 

He has seen dragons and gods come and go, but a juvenile dragon eats him up?

 

How did Aurene even get into the fortress to begin with, and if it were that trivial why didn't we just come in flying with Aurene into the window? It's so utterly ridiculous.

 

And then the aftermath is one whole overlong gag about how disgusting Aurene eating Joko is.

 

Come on, this isn't freaking M*A*S*H

 

This is supposed to be high fantasy. I don't want some Friends style dynamic. I'm honestly quite sick of it.

 

This was not the tone of GW1 and it shouldn't be the tone for GW2.

[Ephemiel.5694]

I think it should be extremely obvious that: 1. The writers really don't seem to know what they're doing. 2. They added Joko just to say "HEY LOOK, JOKO FROM GW1 IS HERE!!!" and then do absolutely nothing with him.

 

This game's story used to be one of its strong points, now it's one of its weakest by far.