Bring Back GW1 Heroes Feature?

[Carighan.6758]

> @"Airdive.2613" said:

> In my opinion, it *shouldn't* work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.

> Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

 

Fully agreed. If anything, I feel many modern MMORPGs, and GW2 very much so, make it *too easy* to play solo.

 

Now, I know I know, options are always good. But we're also all lazy, if we have the option to spend 1 minute socializing to group up vs not doing it and just mashing autoattack to win anyhow, we won't invest the effort. And I don't play my **MM**ORPGs for the solo-mob-grinding part, the important part is bolded. I want that game to constantly push me towards relying on other players.

 

Of course, GW2 also does something really clever here in open-world PvE, because I totally don't mind running around other players and doing things together. I rarely *group* with them though, and, worse, I don't *need* them there, either.

 

What I would do, if I had free hand for a GW3, is work this on a class-design levels. Give each class 1-2 significant weaknesses. You **can** overcome it, but it's moderately annoying to do so, and it's much easier to group with others and have their class setups cover up your weaknesses (and vice versa).

[lokh.2695]

I wouldn't mind the feature but I doubt GW2 needs it. I'd grab my homies Warmaster Grast and Honor's Claw and I'd rock some dungeons :)

[Julischka Bean.7491]

All you people who sneer with scorn about being solo in an MMO, and are against giving solo players Heroes for help....do something to help the timid players, the shy players, the clutzy players, the players who have to leave at a minutes notice, even those who solo because they hate people...help us find teams that will not kick us, or jeer at our poor skills. Among those that solo, I bet there are those who would gladly team up if they could feel comfortable doing so.

 

Be part of the solution.

 

People advertise Hero Point runs. Maybe a Guild could have a "run a clutz through the stories" day.

 

Advertise it on the forums and in map chat. Word it such that....people like me would ...I am crying over here...people like me, would feel wanted and included...I have to log out, I truly am crying. I would love to do the stories, get the Griffon and rollerbeetle...but I am a lousy player ...and shy...

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

GW1's AI didn't have to account for the third dimension (which helped make them a lot better!).

 

I'm afraid it's just beyond the scope for GW2. If anything they'd let content scale to the amount of players before considering adding heroes.

[sorudo.9054]

i like it for dungeons at least but....well.....they don't care about dungeons so.....

[Tails.9372]

> @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> GW1's AI didn't have to account for the third dimension (which helped make them a lot better!).

>

> I'm afraid it's just beyond the scope for GW2. If anything they'd let content scale to the amount of players before considering adding heroes.

I don't think "what's possible for an AI to do" is much of a problem here. They could use machine learning to train an AI to perform on the same level or even better as you would expect from a human player (I kinda want them to do that anyways because training an AI play mesmer like (or even better than) a top level PvP player whould make for an interesting PvE bossfight).

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > GW1's AI didn't have to account for the third dimension (which helped make them a lot better!).

> >

> > I'm afraid it's just beyond the scope for GW2. If anything they'd let content scale to the amount of players before considering adding heroes.

> I don't think "what's possible for an AI to do" is much of a problem here. They could use machine learning to train an AI to perform on the same level or even better as you would expect from a human player (I kinda want them to do that anyways because training an AI play mesmer like (or even better than) a top level PvP player whould make for an interesting PvE bossfight).

 

Can I ask if you have experience with machine learning AI? With three dimensions? In addition to syncing to latency? I don't.

 

Regardless of expertise, I think you're forgetting about feasibility. A complicated AI requires more power, and space for very little benefit to the Game Play (consider where the OP wants to use them too). Scaling down the difficulty is far more in scope. ANET would only have to select the specific instances to make the change. An AI system is another story entirely.

[Zet.9130]

 

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

 

> The reason all those do not exist in the AI of Guild Wars 1 is because they are also really hard to implement. Guild Wars 1 AI was doing things mostly at random, without any actual thought, it appeared to be intelligent because the combat system was so simplistic that it made it seem like it had intelligence.

>

I suspect you never ran a W/Me interrupt Hero, with Koss and Jora set up as such most caster foes were severely limited. Also the AI of minions in GW2 works well for condition removal.

 

I have mixed feelings about having Heroes in GW2. One of the enjoyable features that Heroes brought to GW1 was the developing builds that worked on them. With GW2's simplified and limited skills there will be fewer builds available. The other issue is acquisition; not sure I want to spend 8,000 Gems or do another "Bring me 10,000 dead rats" collection. I did enjoy Heroes in GW1 and also understand that others didn't. Perhaps Heroes for instances, Fractals and Story? just thinking out loud.

 

 

[Dami.5046]

Group play? Wish I could use hero's to kill a raid boss without judgement, that's for sure.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Julischka Bean.7491" said:

> All you people who sneer with scorn about being solo in an MMO, and are against giving solo players Heroes for help....do something to help the timid players, the shy players, the clutzy players, the players who have to leave at a minutes notice, even those who solo because they hate people...help us find teams that will not kick us, or jeer at our poor skills. Among those that solo, I bet there are those who would gladly team up if they could feel comfortable doing so.

>

> Be part of the solution.

>

> People advertise Hero Point runs. Maybe a Guild could have a "run a clutz through the stories" day.

>

> Advertise it on the forums and in map chat. Word it such that....people like me would ...I am crying over here...people like me, would feel wanted and included...I have to log out, I truly am crying. I would love to do the stories, get the Griffon and rollerbeetle...but I am a lousy player ...and shy...

 

A solid point IMO.

 

If a game is going to have non solo intended content in order to help foster a sense of community, then the community should probably be as inclusive as possible.

 

But that doesnt absolve the shy player of putting in some basic effort in this regard. Looking for a guild either via map chat, forum thread, or outside site is a good start. A good guild should want to help its members to grow and engage with the game, content, and community.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Zet.9130" said:

> I suspect you never ran a W/Me interrupt Hero, with Koss and Jora set up as such most caster foes were severely limited. Also the AI of minions in GW2 works well for condition removal.

 

I used Mesmer interrupters, it didn't make them intelligent, they were interrupting skills completely at random. It's also on the wiki that they did in fact chose the skills randomly. All the other limitations that made the AI of GW1 dumb and not the least bit "intelligent" are also on the wiki so I don't know how intelligent your heroes looked to you, but your perception of their intelligence is irrelevant because in reality they weren't intelligent.

 

> I have mixed feelings about having Heroes in GW2. One of the enjoyable features that Heroes brought to GW1 was the developing builds that worked on them. With GW2's simplified and limited skills there will be fewer builds available. The other issue is acquisition; not sure I want to spend 8,000 Gems or do another "Bring me 10,000 dead rats" collection. I did enjoy Heroes in GW1 and also understand that others didn't. Perhaps Heroes for instances, Fractals and Story? just thinking out loud.

 

GW2 now has more skills than GW1 ever had with all expansions combined, and the actual combat complexity of GW2 is way higher than anything seen in GW1. Just looking at the amount of actions required is enough, GW1 has exactly 8 while GW2 has at the very least 15 plus dodging, and all the movement that an AI can't handle well.

 

[Tails.9372]

> @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> > > GW1's AI didn't have to account for the third dimension (which helped make them a lot better!).

> > >

> > > I'm afraid it's just beyond the scope for GW2. If anything they'd let content scale to the amount of players before considering adding heroes.

> > I don't think "what's possible for an AI to do" is much of a problem here. They could use machine learning to train an AI to perform on the same level or even better as you would expect from a human player (I kinda want them to do that anyways because training an AI play mesmer like (or even better than) a top level PvP player whould make for an interesting PvE bossfight).

>

> Can I ask if you have experience with machine learning AI? With three dimensions? In addition to syncing to latency? I don't.

>

> Regardless of expertise, I think you're forgetting about feasibility. A complicated AI requires more power, and space for very little benefit to the Game Play (consider where the OP wants to use them too). Scaling down the difficulty is far more in scope. ANET would only have to select the specific instances to make the change. An AI system is another story entirely.

I know the basic principle behind it, you don't really have to "teach" the AI anything since it pretty much learns through excessive trial and error towarts certain "goals" although with more recent approaches there's more to it. You're right that it's at least questionable whether or not implementing such an AI is worth the effort but I'm just saing that it's possible to implement a working AI which doesn't get floored by the first game mechanic it encounters when you take it to places like the fractals of the mist (aside from just making it immortal).

[derd.6413]

no, in gw1 you required a party to explore maps (because ppl aren't self-suficient and nobody outside your party was in your instance) and as such the hero feature was extremely useful for solo players (arguably a requirement) in gw2 it'd just be a novelty at best(and an absolute nightmare to implement since there's no groundwork for it in gw2)

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

As many have noted above, Heroes aren't realistic for open world content. For all sorts of reasons.

 

And it's almost certain never to happen for instanced content either. First, it goes against the current philosophy that the player should be self-sufficient. It's also clear that lots of players can already solo a lot of the content (including some who can manage much of fractal challenge modes). And, as noted, if the story content is difficult with one, it's almost always quite manageable with two, even a stranger.

 

Finally, even if ANet agreed that some instances need to be more accessible to more solo players, there are lots of other solutions other than creating a brand new, expensive mechanic. They could make the NPCs within the instance more helpful (notably adding heals or buffs), either automatically or by invoking "single player mode" via a mote. They could tweak the difficulty. They could arrange for various optional buffs. While that would involve per instance tweaks (also not cheap), it's a lot easier than trying to rebalance _everything_ to account for heroes.

[Julischka Bean.7491]

Hi everybody.

So sorry I had a meltdown. I am ashamed of myself. Yes, I have troubles with some of the story, but without doing much of the PoF story I was able to get my Jackal. I was also able to get a lot of the HoT masteries solo. Matter of fact, I just got the last of the gliding mastery yesterday! Not sure what I am going to do with it, but I have it :)

 

So, hopefully, I am not too much of a kitten :)

 

Hugs everyone.

 

Lisa-who loves Illconceived Was Na's idea.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Julischka Bean.7491" said:

> Hi everybody.

> So sorry I had a meltdown. I am ashamed of myself. Yes, I have troubles with some of the story, but without doing much of the PoF story I was able to get my Jackal. I was also able to get a lot of the HoT masteries solo. Matter of fact, I just got the last of the gliding mastery yesterday! Not sure what I am going to do with it, but I have it :)

>

> So, hopefully, I am not too much of a kitten :)

>

> Hugs everyone.

>

> Lisa-who loves Illconceived Was Na's idea.

 

You've nothing to be ashamed of. You made some solid points.

[Ashantara.8731]

> @"Justine.6351" said:

> > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > In my opinion, it *shouldn't* work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.

> > Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

> Gw1 didn't die because of heros...in fact it's alive today because of them.

 

You are comparing apples with pears. GW1 is _not_ an MMO, thus heroes were super useful there. GW2, however, _is_ an MMO, and to have NPCs that replace players is not a healthy component for an MMO (as much as I would love to see the hero system return).

[Justine.6351]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Justine.6351" said:

> > > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > In my opinion, it *shouldn't* work in GW 2 if it is to maintain healthy population. It would both mark the game's decline and actually lead to it.

> > > Right now there are enough players in the game to team up with, so let's enjoy real buddies while we can.

> > Gw1 didn't die because of heros...in fact it's alive today because of them.

>

> You are comparing apples with pears. GW1 is _not_ an MMO, thus heroes were super useful there. GW2, however, _is_ an MMO, and to have NPCs that replace players is not a healthy component for an MMO (as much as I would love to see the hero system return).

 

Actually I was correcting his statement that heros were the direct cause of gw1 decline in population.

[Julischka Bean.7491]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Julischka Bean.7491" said:

> > Hi everybody.

> > So sorry I had a meltdown. I am ashamed of myself. Yes, I have troubles with some of the story, but without doing much of the PoF story I was able to get my Jackal. I was also able to get a lot of the HoT masteries solo. Matter of fact, I just got the last of the gliding mastery yesterday! Not sure what I am going to do with it, but I have it :)

> >

> > So, hopefully, I am not too much of a kitten :)

> >

> > Hugs everyone.

> >

> > Lisa-who loves Illconceived Was Na's idea.

>

> You've nothing to be ashamed of. You made some solid points.

 

Thank you Ashen. I appreciate that so much....

 

Now...it is 6:08 in the morning...let the day begin :)

 

Lisa.

[aspirine.6852]

I would settle for an never ending paragon support potion. ?

[Tekoneiric.6817]

I've wanted this feature brought back for instanced content such as stories, dungeons, fractals and raids. What I'd like to see is the ability to fill out the heroes our own characters as we equip them ourselves. They don't make any sense with open world PvE. For instanced content there are a lot of players that either don't have the time to party with others, lack social skills to be able to cope with partying with other players or have other reasons why they don't want to. They are cut out of dungeons, fractals and raids due to the lack of heroes in the game. AIs can be programmed to fill specific roles; healer, aggressors, tank, taunters, distract secondary targets, etc. The limited amount of AI in the game so far tend to be aggressive to the point where they die quickly. They don't fall back to heal while using ranged weapons then move in with melee weapons.

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

> @"Helix.5274" said:

> If you played the original Guild Wars, you may remember you could fill your party with variously classed NPCs. In Eye of the North though, a new mechanic was brought in where you could add your other playable characters to your party.

 

History lesson: Heroes were added in *Nightfall*, not EotN. The "Seven Heroes" feature was added much later.

[Justine.6351]

> @"Steve The Cynic.3217" said:

> > @"Helix.5274" said:

> > If you played the original Guild Wars, you may remember you could fill your party with variously classed NPCs. In Eye of the North though, a new mechanic was brought in where you could add your other playable characters to your party.

>

> History lesson: Heroes were added in *Nightfall*, not EotN. The "Seven Heroes" feature was added much later.

 

Reading lesson: He is referring to Mercenaries not Heroes.

[Tolmos.8395]

IMO, I would think they should begin working on the feature so that they can eventually release it when the population of the game warrants doing so.

 

Mercenaries in GW1 were dumb as posts, but they got you were you needed to go because soloing was close to impossible otherwise. For most stuff they were sufficient, but there were also a lot of things they really sucked at. As the game aged, however, heroes eventually got introduced to help keep the game playable for folks hanging around. I honestly love the feature, and it's why I return to GW1 now and then, but it would have been pretty detrimental to group play if it had released any earlier.

 

One day GW2 may need heroes to be able to allow players to complete some content, but that ain't today. Still, it would be nice to know that when the time comes, they will be ready for it.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Agreed with the OP, would like this for Fractals and Dungeons.

Dungeons because no one does them anymore and Fractals because I never cared about it so I'm like level 11 or something, can't be bothered to try to find a group.