Trinity

[maddoctor.2738]

If you click on the OP's name you will notice that they won't be able to answer your questions for a while. Can let this thread die

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> People saying there's "no trinity", yet ignore Chronomancer and Druid who were designed to be Tanks and Healers respectively.

>

> The whole "there's no trinity in GW2" ended in HoT.

 

Chrono wasn't designed to be a tank; we turned it into one. If you take a look at the early comps for raids, they used other profs to tank. Chrono became the go-to option because it's too good not to tank: it has the evades to stand in the fray, it spits out boons like no other support class, and (at the time) it did weaksauce DPS, so it was better to let the classes with superior DPS options take care of the DPS.

 

Similarly Druids aren't chosen entirely for the heals, as other classes do comparable jobs with that. Druids also provide support that the other classes can't always manage.

 

And more importantly, the traditional "trinity" in other games is mechanical. In GW2, at worst, these comps are strong community preferences, but there are always alternatives (some even legit and not just gimmicky). Imagine trying to run an "only dual-pistol rogue" raid in traditional trinity games, as Snow Crows did with the "[20 Quip Challenge](

)"

 

Re-using comps/builds is a choice we make as players; it's not required by the game.

[wickedkae.4980]

> @"Keira Wildflower.7304" said:

> Can we bring back the trinity? It is the most balanced system to date and it promotes teamwork and hinders trolls.

 

lol no. I came to this game because the Holy Trinity is garbage and exclusionary. I want to play how I want to play, not how some group thinks I should play.

[Dante.1763]

Big no, its a terrible system.

[Linken.6345]

Dident know we could see if people was banned on the forum.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> If you click on the OP's name you will notice that they won't be able to answer your questions for a while. Can let this thread die

 

> @"Linken.6345" said:

> Dident know we could see if people was banned on the forum.

 

judging by this is the only thing he posted to forum since Dec 2017 and dont see anything wrong with it, I guess he got banned in-game for naughty stuffs

[RoseofGilead.8907]

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > If you click on the OP's name you will notice that they won't be able to answer your questions for a while. Can let this thread die

>

> > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > Dident know we could see if people was banned on the forum.

>

> judging by this is the only thing he posted to forum since Dec 2017 and dont see anything wrong with it, I guess he got banned in-game for naughty stuffs

 

OP made another thread earlier today about forum moderation that has since been closed.

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> No because it's a terrible "system".

 

Why is it a terrible system?

[Dante.1763]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > No because it's a terrible "system".

>

> Why is it a terrible system?

 

IMO having to wait for a certain class//role to show up is annoying as hell and something i dont want. I got fed up in GW1 of waiting for a tank or a monk. DPS's are easy to obtain, less so are monks and tanks in my experience. Id rather see each class in this game be able to have a DPS(either condi or power), a support, and a tanky(either through CC or straight up defense) elite spec so they can do all of them.

 

On top of that, its one the core selling points of this game that the trinity doesnt really exist...so..it wont happen.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"RoseofGilead.8907" said:

> > @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > If you click on the OP's name you will notice that they won't be able to answer your questions for a while. Can let this thread die

> >

> > > @"Linken.6345" said:

> > > Dident know we could see if people was banned on the forum.

> >

> > judging by this is the only thing he posted to forum since Dec 2017 and dont see anything wrong with it, I guess he got banned in-game for naughty stuffs

>

> OP made another thread earlier today about forum moderation that has since been closed.

 

guess repeated offences within 24 hours then

[Swagg.9236]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> No because it's a terrible "system".

 

Everyone doing nothing but DPS is a worse system evidenced by how launch GW2 meta was comprised entirely out of 3/8 of the original classes. Real top tier "system" you've got there when 5/8 of your "unique classes" are nothing but bloat.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > No because it's a terrible "system".

>

> Why is it a terrible system?

 

Ultimately it is frustrating. The trinity system isn't a system of strengths, it is a system of weaknesses. Every role is purposefully designed to be inept in order to force cooperation. The system was designed as an easy method of aggro management, but it is inherently easy to abuse. That's why enrage timers were invented. Since everyone wants to play DPS and move the fight forward, it is hard to get players to fill other roles. Everyone just gets mad at the healer anyway. It also removes all of the other specialized roles in favor of having an extremely simplified system. Also it is a bit unrealistic to have the bad guy always go for the unarmed punching bag over everything else attacking them.

 

It was a decent system for the time, but the only reason why it became so popular is because WoW ruined MMOs for a generation.

[VanWilder.6923]

> @"Keira Wildflower.7304" said:

> Can we bring back the trinity? It is the most balanced system to date and it promotes teamwork and hinders trolls.

I don’t know what the “Trinity” is because Gw2 is my 1st MMO. Don’t know if “Trinity” was used for Gw2 in the past but it was stopped or not going to use “Trinity” for the reasons.

 

I read many threads where the posters experiment something they like in other MMOs and then suggest Gw2 should have the same. Some are applicable, QoL and some of them, I must say, if they like some specific features in other MMO games, then keep playing that games. If every MMO is the same concept, feature, plateform, etc... Playing game is Suck!

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > No because it's a terrible "system".

>

> Why is it a terrible system?

 

The trinity was created to "artificially" force players to join in groups to play content by making certain roles essential. It's nothing more than lazy design choice by developers that don't know how to design encounters and/or classes, that was unfortunately forced on players in MMORPGs. Roles always existed in RPGs, however, it was MMORPGs that brought us strict roles like the trinity. If you check any pen and paper RPG (where MMORPGs spawned from) you won't find any kind of trinity, unless you take some more recent games that were created -after- MMORPGs got famous (usually failures btw). Also a lot (most?) CRPGs do not have this trinity either, unless again they were released -after- MMORPGs became famous and tried to capitalize on the trinity effect to make "roles" essential in their gameplay because their developers were lazy. And even in that case, this trinity is never "forced", nor essential to succeed.

 

Waiting for the proper "role" to join your group in order to do content is what makes the system terrible. Lazy design (it's called aggro) that forces players to take on artificial roles, "hey I'm the tank, focus on me boss while my pet healer is keeping me alive!", making the mobs/bosses look incompetent and stupid. Which is why I prefer the fixation mechanic over the dumb "who has the most toughness" mechanic or the "Look I taunt you so I get aggro" mechanic of other MMORPGs.

[sigur.9453]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > No because it's a terrible "system".

> >

> > Why is it a terrible system?

>

> The trinity was created to "artificially" force players to join in groups to play content by making certain roles essential. It's nothing more than lazy design choice by developers that don't know how to design encounters and/or classes, that was unfortunately forced on players in MMORPGs. Roles always existed in RPGs, however, it was MMORPGs that brought us strict roles like the trinity. If you check any pen and paper RPG (where MMORPGs spawned from) you won't find any kind of trinity, unless you take some more recent games that were created -after- MMORPGs got famous (usually failures btw). Also a lot (most?) CRPGs do not have this trinity either, unless again they were released -after- MMORPGs became famous and tried to capitalize on the trinity effect to make "roles" essential in their gameplay because their developers were lazy. And even in that case, this trinity is never "forced", nor essential to succeed.

>

> Waiting for the proper "role" to join your group in order to do content is what makes the system terrible. Lazy design (it's called aggro) that forces players to take on artificial roles, "hey I'm the tank, focus on me boss while my pet healer is keeping me alive!", making the mobs/bosses look incompetent and stupid. Which is why I prefer the fixation mechanic over the dumb "who has the most toughness" mechanic or the "Look I taunt you so I get aggro" mechanic of other MMORPGs.

 

i recently have an disscussion with a guildmate of mine about that topic.

we came to the conclusion that trinity isn´t bad at all since its already the last straw of "real teamplay". Its already to much of playing IN a group than playing WITH a group in the endgame content. So you are at least forced in roles which again at least force you to do SOME kind of communication. take that away and the only interaction with each other would be the ready check,

 

 

other then that i rather prefer to wait for a specific role than for some BS event to spawn i need for an achievment.

i would also not call it a lazy design joice, on the contrary. without roles everything would feel like open world events. not my style of gameplay i would enjoy in group content.

Gw2 aggro system i have to agree is a joke. compared to other games its just to easy to maintain aggro when you need to (= have toughness)

[Angelweave.1856]

It already exists it's called BUFF/HEAL/DPS... when was the last time you saw T4 CM or a Raid without a mesmer or heal???

 

Check LFG under fract T4 or raid and you will see groups waiting for these specific roles to be filled all the time.

[Naresie.6134]

Argh no I went away from other MMO's and not having it here unlike them is such a nice thing. Besides, to take as a recent example, WoW had to hardcore NERF the entire tank archetype in that game because oh look, tanks being too strong and removing a lot of the challenge in PvE content for the ENTIRE group, and don't get me started on PVP lol. I know that there's very tough classes and proffessions in this game too, but fighting immortal tanks and healers in that game was completely disgusting.

 

Basically, I think the trinity creates more problems than it solves, but that is just my own opinion of course.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> we came to the conclusion that trinity isn´t bad at all since its already the last straw of "real teamplay". Its already to much of playing IN a group than playing WITH a group in the endgame content. So you are at least forced in roles which again at least force you to do SOME kind of communication. take that away and the only interaction with each other would be the ready check,

 

The trinity doesn't force you to communicate at all. You have automated systems in other games, getting 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 DPS and nobody ever talks. It's not the role split between healer, tank and dps that allows communication between players, in fact it's the opposite, you keep aggro as tank by following a simple rotation, keep said tank alive using your healing rotation as healer and the DPS roles simply roll their heads on their keyboards to provide DPS without any kind of thought. After all, the actual mechanics are being taken care off by the other players, someone else will keep the aggro and someone else will heal. It's not the trinity that allows communication, it's the boss mechanics that do. You don't need the trinity to make players talk to each other and communicate, unless by communicate you mean "LF Healer, team ready to go!" kind of nonsense. That's not communication.

[Algreg.3629]

> @"zealex.9410" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > No because it's a terrible "system".

>

> Why is it a terrible system?

 

I don't know about you, but I certainly had my share of stabbing some giant toe for ages while keeping my yo-mama-jokes off cooldown, while looking at a few guys stabbing at the heel, while a few guys going all pew-pew and zrrrp-zrrrp from a distant corner of the room, with another guy going all whooooosh-whooosh from a different corner.

[sigur.9453]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > we came to the conclusion that trinity isn´t bad at all since its already the last straw of "real teamplay". Its already to much of playing IN a group than playing WITH a group in the endgame content. So you are at least forced in roles which again at least force you to do SOME kind of communication. take that away and the only interaction with each other would be the ready check,

>

> The trinity doesn't force you to communicate at all. You have automated systems in other games, getting 1 healer, 1 tank and 3 DPS and nobody ever talks. It's not the role split between healer, tank and dps that allows communication between players, in fact it's the opposite, you keep aggro as tank by following a simple rotation, keep said tank alive using your healing rotation as healer and the DPS roles simply roll their heads on their keyboards to provide DPS without any kind of thought. After all, the actual mechanics are being taken care off by the other players, someone else will keep the aggro and someone else will heal. It's not the trinity that allows communication, it's the boss mechanics that do. You don't need the trinity to make players talk to each other and communicate, unless by communicate you mean "LF Healer, team ready to go!" kind of nonsense. That's not communication.

 

To be clear, im only speaking about raids here, haven´t touched any other group content for about a year now.

 

as i said, it is the last reason to communicate, even if its as little as "u tank or i?"

the other things you listed is because encounters are to easy, we need more group pressure,or more mechanics the whole group has to deal with (i love dhuum shackles in that regard)

i like fixation mechanic as well, but it limits the boss in that way that his "normal attacks" are no danger at all. otherwise everyone would need to play tankier gear or add a healer (which would be a trinity role)

good groups already don´t need a dedicated healer on every encounter. (which again underlines the fact that raids are to easy)

in your own words, everyone would just role their head on the keyboard and provide dps, since nothing else matters (if encounters would stay as they are now), and it would even more feel like everyone for her/him self.

i like beeing a tank.

i like beeing a healer

i like beeing a support

i like beeing a dps.

i like specializing.

 

i don´t like to be 1/10 to do a bit of everything

 

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> as i said, it is the last reason to communicate, even if its as little as "u tank or i?"

 

Only you don't really communicate that either in trinity games. You press a button, queue as the role you choose and you are done. And besides, that's bad communication, it means waiting for someone to come and fill that role. I've already tasted that waiting game and it's not fun (and nothing about communication)

The communication you get from mechanics is more important, like shouting "green" when a green circle spawn at Vale Guardian.

 

> in your own words, everyone would just role their head on the keyboard and provide dps, since nothing else matters (if encounters would stay as they are now), and it would even more feel like everyone for her/him self.

 

Only you need to take care of mechanics and can't only stand still and dps, that's what happens when you get a strict trinity. Fixation is one such mechanic that requires every player to do something at random times and stay focused, dropping high damaging area of effects at the appropriate place is another one, providing crowd control to break bars, move specific adds to specific places, stand in green circles, they are all mechanics that far better emphasize "roles" in a game rather than having a tank, a healer and a dps that each take a specific role and do a specific thing before the fight even begins.

 

> i don´t like to be 1/10 to do a bit of everything

 

When fighting Slothasor, some players will need to decide the pattern they will follow when eating their mushrooms, sometimes players use reflections, others use pulls skills to deal with the adds, you also need a good amount of crowd control. Slothasor doesn't need a tank and in a sense nor a healer. Yet it has important role splits and communication is very important. You are not 1/10 that does a bit of everything when fighting Slothasor because you have a role in that fight. A different role than someone else. Yet there is no trinity involved there.

 

Other bosses are more complex than that, like Dhuum or Matthias, while some are simpler, like Gorseval. You don't NEED to have tank/healer/dps roles (the trinity) to have exciting mechanics and role splits. In fact, the trinity prevents creative usage of mechanics and is the lazy way out.

[sigur.9453]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > as i said, it is the last reason to communicate, even if its as little as "u tank or i?"

>

> Only you don't really communicate that either in trinity games. You press a button, queue as the role you choose and you are done. And besides, that's bad communication, it means waiting for someone to come and fill that role. I've already tasted that waiting game and it's not fun (and nothing about communication)

> The communication you get from mechanics is more important, like shouting "green" when a green circle spawn at Vale Guardian.

>

You will ALWAYS need someone to fill a specific role or task, like your sloth example below. if you need someone who pulls and a class without pull joins what do you do?

But since we are playing gw and there is no autogroup function, it does not matter.

in my experience groups fill really fast, especially if you are in a raid active guild.

i get what you mean, but mechanics are to easy currently, and cleave of EVERY class is way to high.

Other then that is saldy very pug unfriendly, or at least the huge "i don´t want to talk to others on voice"- crowd would be very unhappy.

 

> > in your own words, everyone would just role their head on the keyboard and provide dps, since nothing else matters (if encounters would stay as they are now), and it would even more feel like everyone for her/him self.

>

> Only you need to take care of mechanics and can't only stand still and dps, that's what happens when you get a strict trinity. Fixation is one such mechanic that requires every player to do something at random times and stay focused, dropping high damaging area of effects at the appropriate place is another one, providing crowd control to break bars, move specific adds to specific places, stand in green circles, they are all mechanics that far better emphasize "roles" in a game rather than having a tank, a healer and a dps that each take a specific role and do a specific thing before the fight even begins.

>

You already need to take care of mechanics, which sadly boils down to (not) stand in a glowy field. and providing CC is aswell dps´s job. (where a lot still fail). This is also a huge factor why dps of some people is so wide apart (even on simple roation classes) they can´t handle it already. So simple saying dps = rota is bs, sry.

Moving adds to specific places -> KC? i would love a hp buff on adds at other bosses in that regard, that someone is actually "in charge" off add controll, again, cleave is to strong.

Or you have "friends" on samarog, which is at best annoying.

i would love some more mechanics to deal with while "interacting with one another". But no reason to get rid of the trinity because of that.

 

> > i don´t like to be 1/10 to do a bit of everything

>

> When fighting Slothasor, some players will need to decide the pattern they will follow when eating their mushrooms, sometimes players use reflections, others use pulls skills to deal with the adds, you also need a good amount of crowd control. Slothasor doesn't need a tank and in a sense nor a healer. Yet it has important role splits and communication is very important. You are not 1/10 that does a bit of everything when fighting Slothasor because you have a role in that fight. A different role than someone else. Yet there is no trinity involved there.

>

So? i still see the same classes at sloth like on any other boss.(with trinity) and like samarog, beeing tank is an annoyance at best. the fight would be the same with a dedicated tank imo.

 

> Other bosses are more complex than that, like Dhuum or Matthias, while some are simpler, like Gorseval. You don't NEED to have tank/healer/dps roles (the trinity) to have exciting mechanics and role splits. In fact, the trinity prevents creative usage of mechanics and is the lazy way out.

 

how is it preventing in that regard? what mechanics exist that are NOT possible when you have dedicated roles? How would it change the fight exept dancing around to stay behind the boss which is rotating all the time (=annoying)

 

 

[zealex.9410]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > No because it's a terrible "system".

> >

> > Why is it a terrible system?

>

> The trinity was created to "artificially" force players to join in groups to play content by making certain roles essential. It's nothing more than lazy design choice by developers that don't know how to design encounters and/or classes, that was unfortunately forced on players in MMORPGs. Roles always existed in RPGs, however, it was MMORPGs that brought us strict roles like the trinity. If you check any pen and paper RPG (where MMORPGs spawned from) you won't find any kind of trinity, unless you take some more recent games that were created -after- MMORPGs got famous (usually failures btw). Also a lot (most?) CRPGs do not have this trinity either, unless again they were released -after- MMORPGs became famous and tried to capitalize on the trinity effect to make "roles" essential in their gameplay because their developers were lazy. And even in that case, this trinity is never "forced", nor essential to succeed.

>

> Waiting for the proper "role" to join your group in order to do content is what makes the system terrible. Lazy design (it's called aggro) that forces players to take on artificial roles, "hey I'm the tank, focus on me boss while my pet healer is keeping me alive!", making the mobs/bosses look incompetent and stupid. Which is why I prefer the fixation mechanic over the dumb "who has the most toughness" mechanic or the "Look I taunt you so I get aggro" mechanic of other MMORPGs.

 

Idk in the gw2 where each class can tank heal etc i dont see problem with such a system.

[GenghisKhan.7842]

Lol not another topic on this

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

No it's horrible and has no place in GW2!