I prefer PoF to HoT

[Patchwreck.2357]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> > > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > > > @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> > > > > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > > > > Heart of Thorns was a fiasco? Huh, you learn something new every day...

> > > > >

> > > > > I prefer the Heart of Thorns metas over Path of Fire's, yet I prefer the open maps of PoF more. I find the mobs in both maps to be of equal difficulty. Personally, they should continue to release content inspired by both.

> > > > >

> > > > > As always, your opinions may vary.

> > > > >

> > > > > _Edit for spellcheck._ :#

> > > >

> > > > A lot of ppl quit because of HoT and have started coming back because of PoF. Casuals make up the majority of the income for almost all mmos and there for its a fiasco to loose a lot of the ppl who keep the lights on.

> > >

> > > What is a casual player? It doesn't sound descriptive of someone who spends a lot of time or money on a game.

> > >

> > > Does casual player mean "unskilled" and "mainly pve"?

> > >

> > >

> > > Edit: I think HoT is great. Easy, and breezy and beat in a week PoF doesn't seem like it's gonna make the same long term memory storage as all the fall deaths I had in HoT lol

> >

> > Doesn't spend a lot of hours a day playing or have a lot of time to play. Because they don't do raids and t4's that much they buy gold instead of farming it to get skins bag expansions toy etc. pugs a lot or does a lot of open world, the game is for fun and not a second job.

>

> I think its a bit of a stretch then to say a "majority" of their income comes from those types of players.

>

> I would bet most of their money comes from players who say "this is my main game" regardless of the hours they play.

>

> Money comes from loyal player, not casual players. Nintendo had to learn that lesson, and sadly many of the FTP mmo's have not.

>

> Loyalty saved ESO, not casuals. Loyalty has kept WoW going for 14-15 years, casuals have not.

>

> It's not the hours you play, it's the conviction you have to the game. Even a person who plays only a few hours a week can still get into raids.

>

> This "flimsy" casual we speak of will get bored and flake, and then no more money (if any ever did) will come from their wallet and into Anet's profit.

 

This is what games constantly say about themselves and why more and more of them are calling themselves fun as opposed to intense and solo friendly as opposed to full of multiplayer content.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

> @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > > @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> > > > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > > > Heart of Thorns was a fiasco? Huh, you learn something new every day...

> > > >

> > > > I prefer the Heart of Thorns metas over Path of Fire's, yet I prefer the open maps of PoF more. I find the mobs in both maps to be of equal difficulty. Personally, they should continue to release content inspired by both.

> > > >

> > > > As always, your opinions may vary.

> > > >

> > > > _Edit for spellcheck._ :#

> > >

> > > A lot of ppl quit because of HoT and have started coming back because of PoF. Casuals make up the majority of the income for almost all mmos and there for its a fiasco to loose a lot of the ppl who keep the lights on.

> >

> > As I said, opinions may vary. I consider myself a casual player, yet I loved HoT. As for the 'a lot of people quit because of HoT,' I can say nothing except I've seen no evidence of it.

> Not an opinion, the game had a larger pop before HoT than after.

> [https://inanage.com/2018/02/05/estimating-gw2s-population/](https://inanage.com/2018/02/05/estimating-gw2s-population/ "https://inanage.com/2018/02/05/estimating-gw2s-population/")

 

Except that is one blogger's opinion.

[Westenev.5289]

I hope Anet finds a new way to subvert our expectations. I make no secret that I prefered HoT in terms of map design, but in truth I enjoyed HoT and PoF for all their differences. Perhaps it's a bit presumptuous, but I hope the next expansion provides something the other two don't.

[Scar.1793]

Must really love pain and mindless grind if you ever enjoyed HoT. The maps were annoying. Bonus points to Tangled Depth. Making the Shinning Blade and getting the Maguuma Mastery was a real nightmare tbh.

 

Korean MMOs would suit some of you better I think. I was at the release of HoT and while there had been some issues at launch one cannot deny the fact that it made some people, myself included, leave. For those who didn’t know they reduced the amount of xp needed for the masteries as there were a lot of complains about it, keeping people locked out of content right at the beginning. Even with the reduction it’s still quite long to unlock things when you DO need them. Very bad design overall despite decent metas in maps.

 

PoF isn’t perfect especially with the cheesy new elite specs it has, but not only the masteries don’t feel like a chore or an annoyance, the maps are actually interesting to explore. All I can remember from HoT was the endless and mindless grind for masteries. So boring and unoriginal.

[Arioch.4810]

Both expansions are wonderful. Only thing i wish they added was a minimap/hud that better supports 3D navigation for HoT - think something like Elite ship HUD.

Other than that, i would not change a thing! Both expansion brought new flavors and new "feel" to the exploration of the maps, five out of five stars for design imo.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

> @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > Considering the claims that PoF maps are dead and that HoT maps are thriving...

> > >

> > > PoF maps may have appealed to some players, HoT maps are healthier for the game.

> >

> > You're welcome to the opinion that HoT maps are healthier for the game. However, I would suggest that HoT maps are conducive to a particular play-style, that of congregating in large groups. PoF maps are more conducive to exploration, and going it alone. It would seem to me that what is healthy for the game as a whole is a mix of large group and solo/small group content, not all of one or all of the other. Maybe what ANet can do going forward is to present an expansion that includes both, rather than one that is mostly A or mostly B.

> >

> > As to the thread topic... No, PoF was not an apology. It was, instead, a reaction to many players complaints about HoT. In the same way, the Istan meta is a reaction to complaints about lack of/unrewarding meta events on PoF maps.

> >

>

> The HoT maps are healthy in a sense that they keep players playing the game compared to PoF maps which can quickly be completed with no reason to go back. Pretty much the same as the other LS maps with exception to Istan. The way that the OP presents PoF is an exaggeration.

 

And yet, I play in the PoF maps a lot, and see a lot of other players there. In fact, I see more there than I do in HoT maps when I go there, unless I taxi to the active map. The truth as I see it is that map metas keep _some_ of the players playing the game. Likewise, exploration maps keep different players occupied. You are making the mistake of assuming that everyone who plays is playing for the best return in rewards. It's a natural assumption, because those people tend to be vocal about rewards. It's still an assumption, though.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

there was a hot fiasco? cant believe I missed it. just my luck...

*looks down, puts hands in pockets, and kicks dirt *

[AliamRationem.5172]

Don't count on it. HoT made some mistakes that PoF improved upon, but I think they've definitely over-corrected in some areas and it's obvious where it hasn't been well-received. I'd go as far as to say that if mounts had not been such a huge success, PoF would have been a failure. Lots of players enjoy PoF...for about 10 minutes. Once the novelty wears off, however, it's hard to look at PoF and avoid the conclusion that there just isn't much to do there. Meanwhile, the HoT maps are as packed with players as ever, driven largely by the meta events PoF lacks (and the ones it does have are absolutely awful to the point where virtually nobody does them!).

 

This is not to say that HoT is perfect. You are absolutely right about arbitrary mastery gating. Seriously, what is the purpose of Itzel Poison Lore? Just too many masteries that don't add much (or anything!) to gameplay. PoF was a big improvement in this area. Mounts are probably better than anyone expected them to be and there's not much (if any!) filler there. It's almost certainly true that mounts were a big hit in terms of cash shop sales as well, which is why I say that without them PoF would have been a failure.

 

You're also correct in that PoF improved upon the largely unpopular champion Hero Challenges from HoT. Better yet, they did it in a way that improved things both for casual and hardcore players. I happen to really enjoy those champion hero challenges, but since they gave me even more of what I love with the PoF bounty system, there's nothing for me to miss. Meanwhile, players who hated those champ challenges now only have to deal with veterans. Another big win for PoF!

 

The events I will have to disagree on, however. HoT was masterful in the way the events chained together to not only tell the story of the locality you happen to be playing in, but also tying into the bigger story of what is going on across the map. And HoT still has those pointless one-off events running concurrently, so if you prefer to just kill rando veteran unit, etc. you can do that.

 

I also think you greatly exaggerate how difficult it is to explore these maps due to masteries. In reality, you can reach most areas in HoT just unlocking bounce mushrooms and updrafts. Filler masteries aside, earning nice perks that are only strictly necessary in a few places gives a sense of progression without forcing it.

 

Finally, I have no idea what you're on about with mob difficulty. PoF enemies seem on par with HoT enemies, in my estimation. There are also a lot more of them and their aggro range is absolutely obnoxious. Are you sure you aren't just projecting your hatred of HoT here?

[Fenella.2634]

> @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> A lot of ppl quit because of HoT and have started coming back because of PoF. Casuals make up the majority of the income for almost all mmos and there for its a fiasco to loose a lot of the ppl who keep the lights on.

Yup. I had several reasons for quitting the game three years ago, but the announcement of HoT was a major one. I main necro and seriously don't like Reaper. PoF's Scourge is a playstyle that I like far more.

 

However. After returning this year and playing both expansions, I came to love HoT quite a lot, ironically. :lol: The PoF story was better told and the maps are pretty, too, but I prefer the jungle maps and the meta events. I also don't see the issue of having to wait for groups in HoT? You can always look up the times for meta events and plan accordingly. Also, HP trains are still a regular thing, if that's an issue... On the other hand I've had the problem with waiting in PoF a lot, be it for bounties, or for specific events for achievements.

[derd.6413]

The HOT "fiasco" had more to do with the content draughts before and after hot and its rushed development rather then the type of content

[maddoctor.2738]

Path of Fire had many improvements over Heart of Thorns but it also went backwards a lot. There is much less content in Path of Fire, despite the maps being bigger than Heart of Thorns maps. The addition of meta events that have no timers, and lack any meaningful rewards was another part that Path of Fire got wrong. Bounties failed as a concept, and as proof of that, the Long Live the Lich bounties no longer have achievements tied to them like all previous maps. The events in Path of Fire have very few chains to lead players to the "good stuff" and the limited event range indicators mean you have to roam aimlessly a lot in order to find the event you need for a collection. Junundu Rising is a prime example of an event done horribly in Path of Fire, there is absolutely nothing to do around it while waiting for it to begin. Same with the Forged event in Vabbi.

 

Basically the big change between the two expansions is that they removed schedules and timers and added lots of waiting to compensate, I'd rather have organized events and timers rather than wait. Waiting is boring, with a timer I can arrange my play time any way I want.

[Patchwreck.2357]

> @"Inculpatus cedo.9234" said:

> > @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> > > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > > > @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> > > > > @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> > > > > Heart of Thorns was a fiasco? Huh, you learn something new every day...

> > > > >

> > > > > I prefer the Heart of Thorns metas over Path of Fire's, yet I prefer the open maps of PoF more. I find the mobs in both maps to be of equal difficulty. Personally, they should continue to release content inspired by both.

> > > > >

> > > > > As always, your opinions may vary.

> > > > >

> > > > > _Edit for spellcheck._ :#

> > > >

> > > > A lot of ppl quit because of HoT and have started coming back because of PoF. Casuals make up the majority of the income for almost all mmos and there for its a fiasco to loose a lot of the ppl who keep the lights on.

> > >

> > > As I said, opinions may vary. I consider myself a casual player, yet I loved HoT. As for the 'a lot of people quit because of HoT,' I can say nothing except I've seen no evidence of it.

> > Not an opinion, the game had a larger pop before HoT than after.

> > [https://inanage.com/2018/02/05/estimating-gw2s-population/](https://inanage.com/2018/02/05/estimating-gw2s-population/ "https://inanage.com/2018/02/05/estimating-gw2s-population/")

>

> Except that is one blogger's opinion.

 

That and when I check the pulse of the people who played since launch and recently started coming back they've said they quit because HoT gave them almost nothing in the long run, gliding was kind of cool but only kind of and only usable in HoT. From what they have said they had the core zones which they had played to death and then got a 2 tiny new zones only one of which was very much fun then the long awaited new areas were raid zones that were annoying to navigate pre-mount outside of the blob. If you had young kids/wife you were better off playing another game entirely which is what they did. People who didn't quit when reminiscing have said they lost a lot of guildies and or entire guilds shortly after HoT. It seems to work out better now because there are a lot of alternatives for when you want to just relax and mess around in someplace newer.

[Ephie.1275]

PoF improved story and mounts bring more to the table than HoT's masteries..

 

with mounts , Core Tyria and HoT become whole another new ball game of fun..

 

HoT's gliding is overrated and no one speak frog language outside HoT zones

[Ephie.1275]

> @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

>

> That and when I check the pulse of the people who played since launch and recently started coming back they've said they quit because HoT gave them almost nothing in the long run, gliding was kind of cool but only kind of and only usable in HoT. From what they have said they had the core zones which they had played to death and then got a 2 tiny new zones only one of which was very much fun then the long awaited new areas were raid zones that were annoying to navigate pre-mount outside of the blob. If you had young kids/wife you were better off playing another game entirely which is what they did. People who didn't quit when reminiscing have said they lost a lot of guildies and or entire guilds shortly after HoT. It seems to work out better now because there are a lot of alternatives for when you want to just relax and mess around in someplace newer.

 

@"Patchwreck.2357"

 

you nailed it hard , especially the declining Guild members during HoT time where suddenly people you know never log anymore ..

 

HoT is killing GW2 and the dev knew it .. thus PoF is born as it is

 

Not everyone go gaga repeating meta events all day long

 

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

I'd say improving your product over time is not an apology for how it was before the improvement, but rather, it's a natural state of progression for anyone who cares about the quality of the product they are producing, which in turn benefits the producer from a business standpoint. In any case, HoT wasn't a bad expansion, but I do feel PoF is a lot better, and added more quality content (mounts in particular was a game changer). The fact that it was also priced better was the cherry on top.

[Catchyfx.5768]

I like both of them, I like HoT is dangerous its a jungle not Central Park

[Westenev.5289]

> @"Scar.1793" said:

> Must really love pain and mindless grind if you ever enjoyed HoT. The maps were annoying. Bonus points to Tangled Depth. Making the Shinning Blade and getting the Maguuma Mastery was a real nightmare tbh.

>

> Korean MMOs would suit some of you better I think. I was at the release of HoT and while there had been some issues at launch one cannot deny the fact that it made some people, myself included, leave. For those who didn’t know they reduced the amount of xp needed for the masteries as there were a lot of complains about it, keeping people locked out of content right at the beginning. Even with the reduction it’s still quite long to unlock things when you DO need them. Very bad design overall despite decent metas in maps.

>

> PoF isn’t perfect especially with the cheesy new elite specs it has, but not only the masteries don’t feel like a chore or an annoyance, the maps are actually interesting to explore. All I can remember from HoT was the endless and mindless grind for masteries. So boring and unoriginal.

 

All I can remember of PoF was running around on my raptor and something something sunspears *mumble mumble* balthazar. Outside of the Dwarven temple or the story, I simply facerolled over everything. I didn't really need to stop to help anyone (unless I did), and nobody stopped to help me when I was up shits creak getting pwned by a hydra and a hero point. Speaking of hero points, I don't remember a single interesting fight - for most of them, I didn't even have to move, dodge or use skills.

 

Of the jungle, I can still remember my first night in verdant brink - my many encounters with pocket raptors, my first time jumping off a cliff only to realise you needed a mastery point to unlock gliding. That moment when I completely messed up a jump, only to find some sort of secret totem thing. That moment when I jumped down a canyon into a sort of building thing, humming the "mission impossible" theme in my head. That moment when you're trying to help the sylvari sniper squad to the end of the sniping event, only to be ganked in a room by a dozen mordrem snipers. That moment when I climbed a tree to see if I could, but found a mastery point at the top. The moment when I finally managed to beat the Coztec Itzel hero point (seriously - that guy was a pain in the ass).

 

Hell, I even took a level 2 necromancer to HoT to see if I could get map completion. If you're looking for a real challenge, I suggest trying it.

 

I had a whole lot of fun in HoT, because I gave it a chance. It rewards playing off the beaten track, though I can see how it could be difficult for players who only want to accomplish one goal at a time. Sure, the mastery system was a pain in the ass, but I could do so much stuff I didn't really care.

[Algreg.3629]

HoT was not a disaster. Also, I find it somewhat offensive for casual players to more or less paint them as morons who are generally unable to cope with anything but a flat, 2 dimensional map.

[Blocki.4931]

> @"Ephie.1275" said:

> PoF improved story and mounts bring more to the table than HoT's masteries..

>

> with mounts , Core Tyria and HoT become whole another new ball game of fun..

>

> HoT's gliding is overrated and no one speak frog language outside HoT zones

 

Did you even play before gliding was a thing? Because the ability to negate fall damage is a pretty massive thing. It doesn't matter that there are no more updrafts to use etc. it was still an incredible addition.

 

> @"Ephie.1275" said:

> > @"Patchwreck.2357" said:

> >

> > That and when I check the pulse of the people who played since launch and recently started coming back they've said they quit because HoT gave them almost nothing in the long run, gliding was kind of cool but only kind of and only usable in HoT. From what they have said they had the core zones which they had played to death and then got a 2 tiny new zones only one of which was very much fun then the long awaited new areas were raid zones that were annoying to navigate pre-mount outside of the blob. If you had young kids/wife you were better off playing another game entirely which is what they did. People who didn't quit when reminiscing have said they lost a lot of guildies and or entire guilds shortly after HoT. It seems to work out better now because there are a lot of alternatives for when you want to just relax and mess around in someplace newer.

>

> @"Patchwreck.2357"

>

> you nailed it hard , especially the declining Guild members during HoT time where suddenly people you know never log anymore ..

>

> HoT is killing GW2 and the dev knew it .. thus PoF is born as it is

>

> Not everyone go gaga repeating meta events all day long

>

 

Can't blame all of that on HoT though. While it certainly made a few people stop play, who is to say that their priorities simply haven't changed? I stopped playing 1 year before HoT released and came back 2 years later. I still followed the game, I knew what the expac was about but I didn't have the time nor nerve to come back. The content droughts inbetween are what was/is killing the game, not the first expansion itself. It's funny to say that PoF was trying to redeem the game because in terms of repeatable content PoF is perhaps the worst addition to the game, hands down. You call repeatable meta events boring, but don't refuse to see them for what they are: Content to keep you busy & to bring you back to the map(s). In that regard HoT is a 10/10, with every map meta still actively run every single day.

 

PoF offers none of that and since mounts aren't restricted to the PoF and LS maps outside of a few beautiful sights to see there is really nothing drawing you there anymore either, no unique aspects.

[Pifil.5193]

The "fiasco" around HoT wasn't so much the expansion content itself as it was the long content droughts before and after the expansion launched, the terrible awards balancing at launch, and how the map meta blocked off content like the adventures when the expansion launched.

 

I'd say PoF is a good example of them learning some lessons from all that but they also forgot to add in decent long term goals and also forgot to add decent rewards for the content they did add (like how they added recipes for Ascended weapons as rewards for collection achievements, rather than the weapons themselves).

[Scar.1793]

> @"Westenev.5289" said:

> > @"Scar.1793" said:

> > Must really love pain and mindless grind if you ever enjoyed HoT. The maps were annoying. Bonus points to Tangled Depth. Making the Shinning Blade and getting the Maguuma Mastery was a real nightmare tbh.

> >

> > Korean MMOs would suit some of you better I think. I was at the release of HoT and while there had been some issues at launch one cannot deny the fact that it made some people, myself included, leave. For those who didn’t know they reduced the amount of xp needed for the masteries as there were a lot of complains about it, keeping people locked out of content right at the beginning. Even with the reduction it’s still quite long to unlock things when you DO need them. Very bad design overall despite decent metas in maps.

> >

> > PoF isn’t perfect especially with the cheesy new elite specs it has, but not only the masteries don’t feel like a chore or an annoyance, the maps are actually interesting to explore. All I can remember from HoT was the endless and mindless grind for masteries. So boring and unoriginal.

>

> All I can remember of PoF was running around on my raptor and something something sunspears *mumble mumble* balthazar. Outside of the Dwarven temple or the story, I simply facerolled over everything. I didn't really need to stop to help anyone (unless I did), and nobody stopped to help me when I was up kitten creak getting pwned by a hydra and a hero point. Speaking of hero points, I don't remember a single interesting fight - for most of them, I didn't even have to move, dodge or use skills.

>

> Of the jungle, I can still remember my first night in verdant brink - my many encounters with pocket raptors, my first time jumping off a cliff only to realise you needed a mastery point to unlock gliding. That moment when I completely messed up a jump, only to find some sort of secret totem thing. That moment when I jumped down a canyon into a sort of building thing, humming the "mission impossible" theme in my head. That moment when you're trying to help the sylvari sniper squad to the end of the sniping event, only to be ganked in a room by a dozen mordrem snipers. That moment when I climbed a tree to see if I could, but found a mastery point at the top. The moment when I finally managed to beat the Coztec Itzel hero point (seriously - that guy was a pain in the kitten).

>

> Hell, I even took a level 2 necromancer to HoT to see if I could get map completion. If you're looking for a real challenge, I suggest trying it.

>

> I had a whole lot of fun in HoT, because I gave it a chance. It rewards playing off the beaten track, though I can see how it could be difficult for players who only want to accomplish one goal at a time. Sure, the mastery system was a pain in the kitten, but I could do so much stuff I didn't really care.

 

You don’t need to move or dodge ? What class do you play ?

[Goettel.4389]

Let's see: HoT maps are usually pretty full, PoF is a desert (punt intended).

Do the math OP :-)

[misterman.1530]

> @"Diak Atoli.2085" said:

> Heart of Thorns was a fiasco? Huh, you learn something new every day...

>

> I prefer the Heart of Thorns metas over Path of Fire's, yet I prefer the open maps of PoF more. I find the mobs in both maps to be of equal difficulty. Personally, they should continue to release content inspired by both.

>

> As always, your opinions may vary.

>

> _Edit for spellcheck._ :#

 

The strange thing is, the vet hydras in PoF maps are more difficult than the champs you fight. It's crazy. Especially when they get involved in a bounty.

[battledrone.8315]

> @"Goettel.4389" said:

> Let's see: HoT maps are usually pretty full, PoF is a desert (punt intended).

> Do the math OP :-)

 

if it was that good, it would be stupid to change it...but they did..do the math

furthermore, if it was so successful, as you claim, you can bet that they would already had made more like it

money talks, bull... walks

[Ayrilana.1396]

> @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > @"IndigoSundown.5419" said:

> > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said:

> > > > Considering the claims that PoF maps are dead and that HoT maps are thriving...

> > > >

> > > > PoF maps may have appealed to some players, HoT maps are healthier for the game.

> > >

> > > You're welcome to the opinion that HoT maps are healthier for the game. However, I would suggest that HoT maps are conducive to a particular play-style, that of congregating in large groups. PoF maps are more conducive to exploration, and going it alone. It would seem to me that what is healthy for the game as a whole is a mix of large group and solo/small group content, not all of one or all of the other. Maybe what ANet can do going forward is to present an expansion that includes both, rather than one that is mostly A or mostly B.

> > >

> > > As to the thread topic... No, PoF was not an apology. It was, instead, a reaction to many players complaints about HoT. In the same way, the Istan meta is a reaction to complaints about lack of/unrewarding meta events on PoF maps.

> > >

> >

> > The HoT maps are healthy in a sense that they keep players playing the game compared to PoF maps which can quickly be completed with no reason to go back. Pretty much the same as the other LS maps with exception to Istan. The way that the OP presents PoF is an exaggeration.

>

> And yet, I play in the PoF maps a lot, and see a lot of other players there. In fact, I see more there than I do in HoT maps when I go there, unless I taxi to the active map. The truth as I see it is that map metas keep _some_ of the players playing the game. Likewise, exploration maps keep different players occupied. You are making the mistake of assuming that everyone who plays is playing for the best return in rewards. It's a natural assumption, because those people tend to be vocal about rewards. It's still an assumption, though.

 

I made no mention of rewards.