Raid Selling and "LFG" Clutter [Merged]

[Buckeye.9846]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> > What has me raiding or not have anything to do with it.

>

> So you don't raid but are mad at the raid sellers because you were previously suspended for exploiting during Wintersday.

>

> Amazing.

>

 

That is not me in example i gave, just someone from a thread on reddit.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

There's also some confusion about what's actually going on.

> A big portion of the raid lfg and other sections of the lfg is filled with people selling clears,

That is a relatively unimportant statistic. It is inevitable that selling adverts will persist compared to pick up group listings.

* There's no reason to remove a sales advert. A selling guild can take orders 24/7, at least as long as one member is awake, to schedule a run at whatever time.

* Pick up listings disappear as soon as they are filled.

 

At any given moment, therefore, the list will be dominated by persisting adverts over transitory requests for more to start. That tells us nothing about the relative number of adverts compared to LFG.

 

> RMT is a big no no for Anet and i'm sure some of the sellers accept real money for clears aswell.

I can't be sure of that. And even if you made an actual case that this has happened, it tells us nothing about _how often_ that happens, compared to any other non-TP trade in the game.

 

People run giveaways (lotteries and trivia contests and such) and _some_ of those turned out to have been funded by RMT. Likewise, prominent members of the community are often the recipients of gifts from generous fans of theirs. On occasion, some of those gifts have turned out to be RMT (including the infamous case of Dulfy, who was swept up in the clean-up afterward). The fact that RMT customers have done these things doesn't make giveaways bad, it doesn't mean people shouldn't accept gifts from fans or friends, and it's also not an argument as to why selling raid clears is bad; these are just examples of how RMT has more far-reaching effects than we realize.

[HardRider.2980]

It's always been a grey area.. They won't support it nor ban it... Despite everyone calling for it to have at least it's own section.

It's a shame really, because I know a lot of people who want to get into it, are put off by the lfg/forced into P2W in raids

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> "You need to be active and involved when you gain benefits in the game. So "afking while meta", if it gives you a benefit, is not okay. The game was made to be played, actively, by a person directing the actions directly."

 

I want to see if they respond and take action against players "afking while in a meta". As for those using "thumbs up" on the OPs posts, because he is against the evil raid sellers, and you hate raids, his very idea will have you banned when you are in a meta and refuse to waypoint.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I don't get how you associated raid selling with RMT ...

> > Got no problem with people selling raid spots.

>

> People been selling AT tourn wins for real cash, of course some sellers accept real money for clears

Accepting real money is a bannable offense, no matter what in-game you're selling. And people caught doing it _do_ get banned. It's not getting ignored or treated leniently.

 

It's a completely unrelated case to raid selling. They can't really forbid it, because it would have a far reaching consequences.

In short, selling things directly while bypassing TP is not forbidden. Gifting people gold or items for whatever reason you can think of is not forbidden. Having less skilled friends and helping them out with the content they have problem with (or, consequently, having more skilled friends and asking them to help you out when you run into trouble) is also not forbidden. Why would a combination of all those things become forbidden then? And how they could effectively forbid the latter without having to act against at least some of the former example cases?

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> > "You need to be active and involved when you gain benefits in the game. So "afking while meta", if it gives you a benefit, is not okay. The game was made to be played, actively, by a person directing the actions directly."

>

> I want to see if they respond and take action against players "afking while in a meta". As for those using "thumbs up" on the OPs posts, because he is against the evil raid sellers, and you hate raids, his very idea will have you banned when you are in a meta and refuse to waypoint.

What's worse, it will get you banned for trying to finish the meta while someone refuses to waypoint or is slacking.

 

[zionophir.6845]

i tried to sell builds in the forums for in game gold and a mod removed it as "other real money transaction".

 

so i'll eff'in make a website with paid subscription containing my builds instead. thank you for giving me an idea.

 

knock knock, metabattle.com. please place a footnote/credit.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> > @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > > @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> > > In this forum post from 2015 Gaile Gray say that selling posts in the lfg is allowed http://prntscr.com/lscmc2

> > >

> > > "Our policy: Players may use the LFG Tool only for the formation of a group.

> > >

> > > Players may use the tool to sell a spot in a group, but they may not use it to sell or trade items or for any other unintended purposes. Doing so will result in an account infraction.

> > >

> > > You can help us reduce the spam and refocus the tool by reporting individuals who are misusing the LFG Tool. Simply click on the name of that player in your chat window, right click, choose “Report,” and then choose “LFG System Abuse.” With your help we’ll be able to keep the LFG Tool clear for your use in forming groups"

> > >

> > > However in recent responses by Anet GM's they have said this game is meant to be actively played, how is getting boosted in content u otherwise wouldnt succeed in count as actively playing. The people selling raids usually tell their customers to kill their char and they will do the raid themselves so the raid can be done smoothly. This is not active play and you are boosting your account with rewards you otherwise would not get.

> > >

> > > A big portion of the raid lfg and other sections of the lfg is filled with people selling clears, how is this allowed. RMT is a big no no for Anet and i'm sure some of the sellers accept real money for clears aswell.

> > >

> > > What do you think

> >

> > How does this affect you? Why should you care? Raids are not a competitive environment. I don't understand the point here.

>

> Beacuse i believe rules should apply to everyone not “rules are for thee, but not for me”. And i believe Anet should be strict with their tos they have in their game, or scrap parts of it to be consistent. Other players in games such as WoW have voiced their compliants with people selling clears for gold and RMT, maybe Anet who likes to do things differently should do something about it.

>

> Not everything people do affects me personally or in game but i care for the game so why souldnt i care.

 

If ANet doesn't have a problem with it, and it doesn't give any competitive advantage to any players in that arena, it really doesn't affect you. It's good that you care, but in my opinion you really don't have a point here.

[blambidy.3216]

As much as I don’t like selling raids, I think it’s truly a good thing to the community. Since this is a non sub game, it means it’s more casual then wow/ffxiv. So within that, it means more players don’t raid as much in gw2.

 

Gw2 being a different end game system did a great thing. That end game doesn’t mean you (have) to raid to get end game drops. World bosses drop legendary precursors, ascended etc. so a lot more players have a choice. With Our endgame it’s a different meaning, you don’t (have) to raid to get what you need. People can buy raids who don’t know how to complete the raid. But that’s ok, it’s their gold, it’s supporting the elite raiders.

 

And I raid almost everyday. So a person who just wants to buy a dhuum cm instance would be pretty sweet to see up front. I wouldn’t, but it won’t stop others from doing that. And I don’t think it’s hurting the community. If anything it’s giving gw2 a bigger raiding community.

 

 

[Obtena.7952]

> @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > I don't get how you associated raid selling with RMT ...

> > Got no problem with people selling raid spots.

>

> People been selling AT tourn wins for real cash, of course some sellers accept real money for clears

 

OK ... but RMT happens without raid selling so ... ?

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"Shikigami.4013" said:

> It is not a double-edged sword. It is known for years that GMs will be "overly generous" with the time given to respond, and a GM will not try to interact with you and then when you do not reply within a minute immediately ban that account. People "getting banned" for not immediately replying is just fearmongering.

>

> Theoretical scenarios about people being banned because they don't reply immediately keep being brought up over and over no matter if the topic is afk-farming, "afking a meta", raid-selling or multiboxing in an instance (or anywhere else) like in this case. It goes from "what if the phone rings", "what if the doorbell rings", "what if I have to go to the toilet", "what if there is an emergency", "what if my kid cries" and here "what if I am just in a boss fight" :)

>

> > Chris Cleary (Game security lead), May 19th 2016 on the topic on GM checks concerning _people being unresponsive to GM interaction:_

> >GMs have been trained to identify and handle these situations, it’s one of the first things they learn. **GMs are overly generous on the amount of time that players are given to respond.**

>

> [The whole very long thread (which is about afk-farming) is here in the archive](https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/Please-a-clear-statement-re-AFK-farming "The whole very long thread (which is about afk-farming) is here ")

>

 

That's nice, who said anything about immediate? The first time I saw it in this topic, you brought it up. So how about answering what I actually said, instead of what you wanted for me to have said?

[zombyturtle.5980]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> In raids, you have to do some damage to get credit. On the spectrum from 100% inactive to 100% active, that puts you across the arbitrary line that ANet has drawn.

>

> Why did they draw the line there rather than further along the spectrum? To a large extent, that's a moot question. We can reasonably presume that they have a better idea than we do about what's better for the game in the long run. If they don't see a problem, why are we trying to imagine one for them?

>

> For some it can be interesting to speculate regardless and some answers have been suggested:

> * The existing line is easier to enforce than a stricter one. (Fairly easy to explain & demonstrate.)

> * People who buy a raid run are actively involved in the game in other ways, otherwise they couldn't afford the cost and wouldn't be interested in the service. (Even easier to explain & demonstrate. I know people who chose to learn to raid, after having been carried in their first raid boss fight.)

>

>

 

Im 99% sure you dont have to do any damage to receive credit in a raid. You just have to be in the instance when the boss is killed, even if you are dead at the start.

 

Anyway on topic, I hate raid selling. But I fully admit it is very different to trading over lfg or multiboxing. The raid sellers are searching for a member to join a group and complete content, so it fits in anets definition. As long as they are sitting at the screen, they are considered 'active', even if they are lying dead for the fight.

 

I personally feel that players should earn raid rewards since they are hard content. Buying the rewards removes all the purpose of the content itself. But anet and alot of players disagree so I will suck it up and just ignore raid selling groups.

[preacher.9370]

i have bought a raid boss kill before. Why? because training runs had not provided me with a kill to max out masteries. the kill i bought was for gors, which i had done a training run on, so i knew the gist of the fight, was told up front, don't have to fight, can just stand there, but i joined in, knew the mechanics well enough from training run, survived and got the kill.

 

to be honest, it had me wanting to do more raids. but how could I join a raid, since i don't have X amount of whatever it is people demand everyone has to even be considered to be taken on a raid?

[Linken.6345]

> @"preacher.9370" said:

> i have bought a raid boss kill before. Why? because training runs had not provided me with a kill to max out masteries. the kill i bought was for gors, which i had done a training run on, so i knew the gist of the fight, was told up front, don't have to fight, can just stand there, but i joined in, knew the mechanics well enough from training run, survived and got the kill.

>

> to be honest, it had me wanting to do more raids. but how could I join a raid, since i don't have X amount of whatever it is people demand everyone has to even be considered to be taken on a raid?

 

You find a static group with similar experince as yourself and slowly build up your li + decos from each boss.

Or you continue to join training groups and abysmaly slowly build up li and dec from some bosses.

[Swagger.1459]

@"Buckeye.9846"

 

You should always check the forum first for the official rules...

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/352/policy-third-party-programs-multi-boxing-macros

 

 

“Dual- or Multi-Boxing

* You may use more than one account at the same time.

* You may use more than one computer at the same time.

* You must be actively playing on each account.

* As stated above, you may not program your keyboard to perform functions on more than one account at a time. For example, if you press W on your keyboard to move forward, a single character on a single account should move forward. The keystroke or mouse click should not perform functions on more than one account.”

 

We have been given official word on raid selling. This issue you have is with multi-boxing, and the quote should clear things up.

 

GL

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

>

> It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

>

> Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

>

> It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

 

Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

 

How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

[Ayakaru.6583]

To put it shortly:

I’m not a plumber. So i work actuvely to acquire a tradeable good i can give to a plumber in exchange for plumbing works.

I’m also not a professional raider, just okayish. I’ve done most stuff except kill Dhuum and the last raid.

So i play actively to acquire a tradeable good like mystic coins which i can trade for a Dhuum kill.

 

As for what anet says on active playing; you can sell spots and an active raiding group.

But not on a group that doesnt plan to raid once the group has amassed numbers. For example “buy a spot for monday’s clear”. That shouldn’t be allowed. Since you’re not joining an ‘active’ group

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

> >

> > It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

> >

> > Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

> >

> > It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

>

> Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

>

> How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

 

I'm sorry but no, if you had actually any real interest in raids you would have found ways to raid by now.

 

Simply putting up a Looking for Group and hoping people will flock to you and add you to their raid is about as fruitful as watching grass grow (and as productive).

 

There are proper ways which have proven successful for people to get into raiding. They include but are not limited to:

- joining a guild which raids and does training runs

- joining general training runs

- joining a discord server and finding a training raid there (there are discord servers with 1,000+ players on them running multiple training raids at a time

 

I'm not opposed to people selling raid and boss kills (though I am not thrilled by this either) but this constant nonsense about raids being hard to get into ist just that: nonsense.

 

There are elegible reasons for someone not being able to raid:

- time commitment

- age and or disabilities (and even here there is tons of players who manage)

- social anxiety

- etc.

 

Most everything else are poor excuses.

[Blocki.4931]

The answer is: It doesn't hurt anybody, that's why it's allowed to exist.

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > > By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

> > >

> > > It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

> > >

> > > Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

> > >

> > > It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

> >

> > Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

> >

> > How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

>

> I'm sorry but no, if you had actually any real interest in raids you would have found ways to raid by now.

>

> Simply putting up a Looking for Group and hoping people will flock to you and add you to their raid is about as fruitful as watching grass grow (and as productive).

>

> There are proper ways which have proven successful for people to get into raiding. They include but are not limited to:

> - joining a guild which raids and does training runs

> - joining general training runs

> - joining a discord server and finding a training raid there (there are discord servers with 1,000+ players on them running multiple training raids at a time

>

> I'm not opposed to people selling raid and boss kills (though I am not thrilled by this either) but this constant nonsense about raids being hard to get into ist just that: nonsense.

>

> There are elegible reasons for someone not being able to raid:

> - time commitment

> - age and or disabilities (and even here there is tons of players who manage)

> - social anxiety

> - etc.

>

> Most everything else are poor excuses.

 

Not all of us sit there posting every single day, some of us have families and work to attend too so when I get a spare 2 or 3 hours to game I post and I still havent managed to get in on one yet, Ive made a few threads on the forums here asking to be invited and yet Im still to raid.

 

Raiders are elitists, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way either, its about effeciency.

(I totally get it too now after playing cod 4 zombie mode, im level 52 and dont start a round with anything less than level 5 or micless because I want to go more than 10 to 15 rounds)

 

Those sellers really help players like me and if Im putting money into the game to convert to gold to buy raids then inadvertently they help Anet too, so with that said, I hope nothing drastic changes on the matter.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > @"HnRkLnXqZ.1870" said:

> > > > By offering those clears, you give the players out there an alternative to never bother with the content at all, but gaining every advantage anyway. So they forcefully reduce the player-base, prevent a good portion of people from even trying the thing for real, and transform the content into a dull repetitive routine for themselves. That is not forbidden, but imho counter-productive if you really enjoy the content and believe more people should give it a try.

> > > >

> > > > It belongs to the long list of player-created-problems. So it would be our task to find a proper solution to this. Reasoning with the sellers is pointless.

> > > >

> > > > Discussing the topic in public sooner or later leads to the ultimate argument. I have not managed a way to counter that, yet. You can justify almost everything with that line:

> > > >

> > > > It is a free world, everyone can decide for themselves whether they want to do this or not.

> > >

> > > Actually the sold spots are the only way for some of us to get into a raid...

> > >

> > > How long have raids been out? Ive been posting as a first timer since then and repeatedly kicked from groups because of it, literally no one wants a first timer in thier raids...

> >

> > I'm sorry but no, if you had actually any real interest in raids you would have found ways to raid by now.

> >

> > Simply putting up a Looking for Group and hoping people will flock to you and add you to their raid is about as fruitful as watching grass grow (and as productive).

> >

> > There are proper ways which have proven successful for people to get into raiding. They include but are not limited to:

> > - joining a guild which raids and does training runs

> > - joining general training runs

> > - joining a discord server and finding a training raid there (there are discord servers with 1,000+ players on them running multiple training raids at a time

> >

> > I'm not opposed to people selling raid and boss kills (though I am not thrilled by this either) but this constant nonsense about raids being hard to get into ist just that: nonsense.

> >

> > There are elegible reasons for someone not being able to raid:

> > - time commitment

> > - age and or disabilities (and even here there is tons of players who manage)

> > - social anxiety

> > - etc.

> >

> > Most everything else are poor excuses.

>

> Not all of us sit there posting every single day, some of us have families and work to attend too so when I get a spare 2 or 3 hours to game **I post and I still havent managed to get in on one yet**, Ive made a few threads on the forums here asking to be invited and yet Im still to raid.

>

> Raiders are elitists, its as simple as that. Not in a bad way either, its about effeciency.

> (I totally get it too now after playing cod 4 zombie mode, im level 52 and dont start a round with anything less than level 5 or micless because I want to go more than 10 to 15 rounds)

>

> Those sellers really help players like me and if Im putting money into the game to convert to gold to buy raids then inadvertently they help Anet too, so with that said, I hope nothing drastic changes on the matter.

 

I fully understand your situation. Please realize though that your approach to raid is akin to entering an empty room day in day out and then complaining that you never meet someone. The LFG is very special in what gets searched for and how it gets used.

 

Posting in the LFG is simply not the way to get into raiding. It isn't even for experienced raiders (unless they are playing a highly demanded role like chrono and even then it will take way longer than joining directly). Less so as inexperienced raider performing lesser roles. It will NEVER happen that way.

 

If you want to raid and are limited time wise (which I mentioned as a limiting criteria) then join a raid training discord server and check in there when you have time. Or join a guild which have flexible raid trainings and try to get an evening off. I'm currently helping out in 2 guilds with raid training and many people in those raids have families and full time jobs (and as such are also very precise on ending on time for example).

[Warlord.9082]

> @"Buckeye.9846" said:

> Getting killed at teq and not respawning is not good either, you are not actively participating in the meta and you get reward for others work. Not good example to bring up a raid fight, there is no way for the dead to respawn when the rest of team is fighting. If someone is not pulling their weight in raids that person gets kicked, You cant kick players from world metas, you can and should however report them for botting.

 

Not pulling your weight in the world meta equates to botting... Right... I hope they ban you for abusing the report function...

[gebrechen.5643]

These types of selling are killing games in the long run. It hurts the games economy, it hurts the player base looking for people that want to raid and work for it and it takes people out of the pool, because of the "have seen all of it" issue.

I really don't understand why developers don't care about that. Yes, it would take time and effort to prevent sell runs, but for the health of the game it's necessary.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

If item selling is not allowed in lfg, and it is thriving on the 3rd party site, then raid selling should be the same. Keep lfg clear. While we are at it, allow us to reopen bosses were previously killed for the week. Keep lfg for actual lfgs.

[Dante.1763]

> @"gebrechen.5643" said:

> These types of selling are killing games in the long run. It hurts the games economy, it hurts the player base looking for people that want to raid and work for it and it takes people out of the pool, because of the "have seen all of it" issue.

> I really don't understand why developers don't care about that. Yes, it would take time and effort to prevent sell runs, but for the health of the game it's necessary.

 

Errrr...I disagree, there is a super large portion of this games playerbase that will never attempt to touch raids due to the difficulty of them(the toxicity that happens doesnt help much either). Sellers allow some of those players who still want the loot from them to get the loot they otherwise wouldnt have. If i wasnt so much of a "I want to do it myself" kinda person i woulda bought raids to get the armor myself, raids are a painful, unfun experience, and this is coming from someones whos group gets clears consistently.

[gebrechen.5643]

How is "getting loot" by buying it a positive thing? Everyone has the option to get some friends together and start raiding. Yes, you have to invest time for that. And the toxicity doesn't change a bit without "paid raids".

If you want something, you work for it. If you want raid loot, you should improve your build, your gameplay and get a team together. That's why you play a mmorpg.