Revert Lead Attacks Changes

[Crab Fear.1624]

lol lead attacks nerf.

 

oh my anet, what on earth.

 

you have purposely designed thief to not stay in combat for long periods of time with the lack of health and sustain, and you nerf lead attacks

 

do you know how the traits work? how the skill work?

 

lmao hahahahahahahaha

[apharma.3741]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > > lol. this change was good. stacking dmg modifiers outside of combat is dumb, it encourages one shot builds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Did they make the same change to Maul?

> > > > >

> > > > > do ranger one shots have anything to do with teef one shots?

> > > >

> > > > can you tell me when was the last time a thief one shot you?

> > > > We are talking about PvP not WvW and we're talking about THIEF no Deadeye.

> > >

> > > Two days ago. 19k vault.

> > >

> >

> > 19k Vault in PvP? Were you below 50% hp? Because otherwise, thats just not even possible (the multiplier on vault isnt nearly high enough to get to 19k without a lot of <50% damage boosts). And if you were, thats not a oneshot.

>

> I find it funny that he was even hit by a Vault since it’s a very obvious animation, slow moving and all.(inb4 it game from Shadowstep (since that got nerfed as well)or other excuse).

 

It was probably WvW, you often saw 2-3 staff thieves stealthing up before a fight to do a 19k vault (vault into steal) on eles and necros to instantly down them. If you have 3 of them doing it they can literally have you dead before you go downstate.

 

Not a lot you could do about it either coming from stealth and when used with steal as there's no tell.

[BlaqueFyre.5678]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > > > lol. this change was good. stacking dmg modifiers outside of combat is dumb, it encourages one shot builds.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Did they make the same change to Maul?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > do ranger one shots have anything to do with teef one shots?

> > > > >

> > > > > can you tell me when was the last time a thief one shot you?

> > > > > We are talking about PvP not WvW and we're talking about THIEF no Deadeye.

> > > >

> > > > Two days ago. 19k vault.

> > > >

> > >

> > > 19k Vault in PvP? Were you below 50% hp? Because otherwise, thats just not even possible (the multiplier on vault isnt nearly high enough to get to 19k without a lot of <50% damage boosts). And if you were, thats not a oneshot.

> >

> > I find it funny that he was even hit by a Vault since it’s a very obvious animation, slow moving and all.(inb4 it game from Shadowstep (since that got nerfed as well)or other excuse).

>

> It was probably WvW, you often saw 2-3 staff thieves stealthing up before a fight to do a 19k vault (vault into steal) on eles and necros to instantly down them. If you have 3 of them doing it they can literally have you dead before you go downstate.

>

> Not a lot you could do about it either coming from stealth and when used with steal as there's no tell.

 

Yeah just Stealth gank gimmick squads which now no more steal Vaults so that’s a thing, now Vault will only kill baddies, which whatever the games in a joke of a state overall anyways.

[apharma.3741]

> @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said:

> > > > @"UNOwen.7132" said:

> > > > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > > > > lol. this change was good. stacking dmg modifiers outside of combat is dumb, it encourages one shot builds.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Did they make the same change to Maul?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > do ranger one shots have anything to do with teef one shots?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > can you tell me when was the last time a thief one shot you?

> > > > > > We are talking about PvP not WvW and we're talking about THIEF no Deadeye.

> > > > >

> > > > > Two days ago. 19k vault.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > 19k Vault in PvP? Were you below 50% hp? Because otherwise, thats just not even possible (the multiplier on vault isnt nearly high enough to get to 19k without a lot of <50% damage boosts). And if you were, thats not a oneshot.

> > >

> > > I find it funny that he was even hit by a Vault since it’s a very obvious animation, slow moving and all.(inb4 it game from Shadowstep (since that got nerfed as well)or other excuse).

> >

> > It was probably WvW, you often saw 2-3 staff thieves stealthing up before a fight to do a 19k vault (vault into steal) on eles and necros to instantly down them. If you have 3 of them doing it they can literally have you dead before you go downstate.

> >

> > Not a lot you could do about it either coming from stealth and when used with steal as there's no tell.

>

> Yeah just Stealth gank gimmick squads which now no more steal Vaults so that’s a thing, now Vault will only kill baddies, which whatever the games in a joke of a state overall anyways.

 

It wasn't a gimmick, it's probably the most useful they can be tangling up the more squishy players that aren't at 3.5k toughness and 20-30k health. It's worth remembering we used to have these focus parties a lot 3-4 years ago except they generally did maybe a third of that damage each. They went when we got the infinite sustain meleeball and pirate ships with minstrels/TB stats as everyone was too booned up and tanky.

 

If your eles and zerk necros die you lose the fight and generally most fights are carried by about 20-30% of the squad playing well you can pretty easily swing a fight taking out the more competent squishies first.

[Swagg.9236]

* Does spamming 5 while pressing W between points validate giving a class a passive +10-15% damage bonus before a fight even starts? Especially considering that such an effect is due to a **minor** trait in a line that everyone takes anyway because it gives them more chances to teleport or evade while attacking?

* Are you trying to imply that thief was not always just a one-dimensional, aggro teleport bot with a tremendous fear of commitment? Although, I do understand that thief is basically worthless if it can't instantly deal thousands of damage. Guess that's what you get when you make a class in an MMO which was more of a showcase for "Look guys, we made invisibility work in our engine!" than something with a real role within the context of other classes.

* I use static field, eruption, arcane wave and windborne speed before a match even starts; then I end up throwing down a frozen ground, unsteady earth and probably another arcane wave before a midfight is entirely underway. And those are respectively to give my team swiftness and to strike and directly influence the speed and direction of my opponents. Why aren't I dealing 10% bonus damage at midfights? I took the arcane trait line just like everybody else.

 

And honestly, if I can climb out of low gold into top 250 on core staff elementalist just by changing up some ways I approach certain maps and match-ups, why would you be whining about the one class which has arguably been within pvp meta territory for the game's entire existence? Just find something that works despite whatever drawbacks you might find with it. After all, working around drawbacks is what creates a playstyle. Without drawbacks, you just end up with everything being the same.

[reikken.4961]

Lead attacks was a dumb trait thematically. It was just a permanent 15% damage buffs. This change is both good and bad. Cutting thief initial burst is bad because that's thief's job but good because bursting people from stealth is bad gameplay. Anyway, the trait as a whole should be changed entirely. It doesn't make any sense for thief to have ramping damage, and the mechanic certainly doesn't fit the trait's name.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"Vallun.2071" said:

> Changes read:

>

> Additionally, we've toned down the initial burst of damage that the thief can apply by removing the ability to stack Lead Attacks when outside of combat. Lead Attacks: The duration of this trait's Lead Attacks stacking effect has been reduced from 15 seconds to 10 seconds. It now requires the player to be in combat in order to generate the stacking damage effect. Initiative skills that cause the player to enter combat will generate stacks of this trait.

> ______________

>

> Why would we want to reduce the initial burst of damage thieves do when that is their job? They already have low enough sustained damage and survivability. This change is actually so bad not only because its a pointless nerf, but it also promotes terrible gameplay. If I'm a thief in PvP (where I assume these changes are intended) I'm rotating between nodes using my initiative to close the gap. If I'm gaining no lead attacks during that time it diminishes the advantage of having speed. It is basically almost saying that I shouldn't use initiative until I get in combat.

>

> So basically if I want to play rotationally I'll want to either steal instantly or be very predictable. Get in combat to stack my buff or begin fights very disadvantageously just to start gathering a buff. Either that or I play intelligently and suffer getting a huge damage nerf. This promotes Sword Dagger gameplay even more which is already the best thief build in the meta, and absolutely dumpsters dagger pistol gameplay which is more front loaded and required much more skill. Not only that but the reduced duration also makes it ramp down faster so you have to stay IN COMBAT longer, which thieves simply cant do because they lack survivability and sustain. So instead of the skillful in and out combat they are forced to stay in fights longer, but there have been no changes to help their ability to do that. ?????????

>

> My suggestion is revert this change, or even reduce the duration of the buff but allow it to be stacked out of combat. I'd rather not be stuck on an even more braindead version of the sd build for another several months.

 

As apparently it is not fun to play against **broken** fresh air ele( as you said in your "balance" video ), which you suggested to leave in the dumbster....It's also not fun to play against stacked dmg modifiers like the vault out of nowhere hitting for god knows how much..people have been expecting these changes for the last 6 years

[Vallun.2071]

> @"reikken.4961" said:

> Lead attacks was a dumb trait thematically. It was just a permanent 15% damage buffs. This change is both good and bad. Cutting thief initial burst is bad because that's thief's job but good because bursting people from stealth is bad gameplay. Anyway, the trait as a whole should be changed entirely. It doesn't make any sense for thief to have ramping damage, and the mechanic certainly doesn't fit the trait's name.

 

I agree completely, it ends up being a 15% dmg boost permanently before, but after it ends up making 0 sense, but the stealth burst nerf can come from nerfing the things that are found in stealth one shot builds, not the trait that is found IN EVERY THIEF BUILD

[Lexani.6152]

Players want more deadeyes...lets give them deadeyes.

[Horan.7013]

Patch like this only pushes thief into playing more cheese/cancerous/gimmick builds.

I want my main to be strong but not because other classes are broken bad.

Thief needs rework. Not some random nerf.

[Exitus.3297]

I agree with Vallun on this. This change doesn't make sense, mainly because it isn't clear why ANet made the change. The only thing I can think of is that they want to punish Thieves for using their Initiative out of combat, which Vallun pointed out. This hurts every Thief build when it was Deadeye that people are pointing out was overbearing. The whole point of Lead Attacks is "You don't have Initiative for skills, but you have more damage for attacks."

 

This was a up to a 15% damage nerf to any Thief that used Initiative to approach a gank, particularly D/P Thieves. Looks like I will be seeing more S/D Thieves when it was already the Meta pick.

[Isle of Stars.3049]

> @"Thundabolt.8541" said:

> Sorry, but after being on the receiving end of the absurd damage Deadeyes could do, I think they had this coming.

>

> There's no fun in being downed fast with little time to react. Firebrands know that feeling when they get 1v4'd, which is understandable.

>

> You guys had far too much advantage over your opponents. Now it's time to think like a team and less like a one man army.

 

I'm in the advocacy of nerfing DE and its absurd damage output, but the thing is, DEs do not use the Trickery traitline. In short, no matter how many nerfs the Devs will do to LA, trash players who run cheese one-shot DE will not be affected as their build mostly revolves around SA-CS-DE.

[Delweyn.1309]

> @"Urejt.5648" said:

> rifle deadeye is complete garbage now. Deaths Judgment being blockable is huge nerf.

 

Not only blockable, but reflected too. So DE can't deal anymore against those bunk warriors and guards.

 

I think they regret to have created DE. They don't know how to manage it and can't just remove it.

 

So they will continue to destroy it at the point that this spe will be simply unplayable.

[Exitus.3297]

I would have been happier with this change if they at least made it easier to stack in return. Something like limiting the number of stacks to 10 down from 15, but making each stack increase damage by 1.5%. Something like that.

 

They basically just pushed Thieves more toward Sword than they already had. Swindler's Equilibrium used to only increase damage coming from Sword attacks specifically. Now it's a 240 power boost across the board for wielding a Sword. Not only is that more than a 10% damage boost to Thieves in PvP, it now affects everything they do. Between and that change to Lead Attacks favoring builds that stick to targets, I'm confident I'm going to see a lot more S/D Thieves than I already did.

[Airdive.2613]

> @"Impact.2780" said:

> > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > @"Impact.2780" said:

> > > > @"Airdive.2613" said:

> > > > > @"Impact.2780" said:

> > > > > Additionally reducing the duration of the buffs from 15s to 10s , however, makes no sense, when the cap is at 15. 10 seconds makes 10 initiative, and you'll be starting with less than full having just used it to get from A to B. You'll arrive with little initiative, no buffs, and never fully utilise the trait. It is essentially a 5% damage nerf on top.

> > > >

> > > > I mean, I understand the nerf is harsh, but you can still stack up to 15 at the beginning of a fight: spend your starting 5+ initiative (it's silly to engage with less anyway), regenerate then spend some more within 10 seconds. It is now certainly harder to stay at 15 stacks in prolonged fights.

> > >

> > > Spend 5. Get 5 stacks for 10 seconds.

> > >

> > > Gain 10 initiative over 10 seconds. By which time, original 5 gone, new 10 gained. 5-5+10=10.

> >

> > More like this:

> > 5+10 = 15 / for a couple seconds

> > 15-5 = 10 / a few seconds later

>

> You clearly don't understand the concept of initiative regeneration. It's one per second. By the time you have an additional 10 to spend, that's 10 seconds gone. Any stacks you accumulated prior, are gone. If you use them continuously, i.e. no disengage, no waiting out a skill etc. you can reach a maximum of 14. On the 10th second, you will simultaneously lose 5 stacks and gain 1 initiative. In practice, you won't reach 14. You must always have some in the bank for your escape. The fact that you are arguing this detracts all the weight any of your comments here might otherwise have. It's ridiculous. What is wrong with you? Why did I come back to the forums? Please, please think before you post. Just try it. I'm not going to reply any more this point. I have no desire to see this derailed.

 

Easy there.

Here, an easy correction: don't engage before you have 10 initiative. This way you can spend all 10 in a quick succession, spend 5 more after 5 seconds and enjoy the full 15 stacks for another 5 seconds. Point is, it is possible to stack lead attacks to 15, but it's only easy to do so at the beginning of a fight.

[foste.3098]

From testing a bunch more builds around to me it seams that the best build for daredevil is s/p acro, trickery and traiting for bound. The set has utility and damage albeit you are much more static because of pistol whip. Using bound dodge you have access to stealth and the change to swindler's equilibrium balances out the terrible change to lead attacks.

But then again why would you bother when you can just role a deadeye and instagib ppl with malicious backstab all the while not traiting for trickery, that's some good balancing right

[Miles Smiles.8951]

when all they needed to do is to remove stealth on dodge.

[Spartacus.3192]

ahhhh i fondly remember the days when warriors could carry FULL adrenaline between fights. People were complaining that Warriors were using Kill shot or other burst skills at start of combat with full adrenaline bar. Sound familiar?

 

Then anet made adrenaline decay almost instantly when OOC.

 

Warriors learned to adapt. I am sure thieves will too.

[UNOwen.7132]

> @"Spartacus.3192" said:

> ahhhh i fondly remember the days when warriors could carry FULL adrenaline between fights. People were complaining that Warriors were using Kill shot or other burst skills at start of combat with full adrenaline bar. Sound familiar?

>

> Then anet made adrenaline decay almost instantly when OOC.

>

> Warriors learned to adapt. I am sure thieves will too.

 

Difference is, a Warrior can stay in a fight for a long, long time, and repeatedly build up Adrenaline. Yknow, highest health pool, highest base armour, lots of blocks, projectile deflection, innate healing, pseudo-invulnerability, condi cleanse, resistance, etc. etc. A warrior can still use Adrenaline very well. A thief however ... cant. Thieves cant build up the lead attack stacks, because they cant stay that long in fights. They are far too terrible at sustained fights to utilize this. Really, this change just begs the question of what exactly Anet wants thieves to be doing. Because so far it was understood that thief was supposed to exclusively decap and +1, and do nothing else at all, being 100% locked into a shortbow 5 centric build. Now theyre not supposed to +1 either? What, are we soon just going to be standing on points and occasionally throwing out choking gas and cluster bombs to annoy people in teamfights?

[Xcution.4768]

With the unblockable feature of DE rifle gone i wonder how Fbs will die now.

[Terawr.1983]

Anet's logic to nerfing specs is to nerf the entire base class as a whole.

[TorQ.7041]

> @"Xcution.4768" said:

> With the unblockable feature of DE rifle gone i wonder how Fbs will die now.

 

U gotta some how wait for all their blocks to be used. Get him below half health while not being focused on your tiny health pool then go in and pistol whip. Lol.

 

Unfortunately anet listen to people cry about a skill with a delayed bullet, noise, laser beam etc etc cos they can't learn to line of sight, dodge or anything else.

[santso.9201]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > lol. this change was good. stacking dmg modifiers outside of combat is dumb, it encourages one shot builds.

> > > > >

> > > > > Did they make the same change to Maul?

> > > >

> > > > do ranger one shots have anything to do with teef one shots?

> > >

> > > can you tell me when was the last time a thief one shot you?

> > > We are talking about PvP not WvW and we're talking about THIEF no Deadeye.

> >

> > Two days ago. 19k vault.

> >

>

> we are close to 2019 and people still getting one shot by the most telegraphed skill in the game?

> anyways 19k is not possible unless the thief is running critical strikes deadly arts daredevil with zerk amulet AND you have to be below 50%, it is still hard to achieve that damage in a normal ranked game.

>

> There's no reason to approve this change unless you hate thief which seems to be the perfect excuse to say " yeah mang it's a good nerf cuz thief can one shot from stealth duuuhh"

 

All you need to do is activate assassins signet. Like in wvw you see 25k vaults against ppl with 2,5k armor

[Mathias.9657]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> While a true 1-shot is rare, thieves have been alpha'ing people for 60%+ of their total health pretty much since the game launched. I think shifting thief away from gank gimmicks is healthy for the game.

 

So you rather the perma evade gimmicks? I much prefer the assassination style tactics and being squishy. Evade is the only viable way to make thief survivable in a fight since ANet refuse to give them any defense other than LOLDODGE. Thief should do big damage.. period. Its their archetype, or at least is supposed to be. Too bad is now exclusive DE and even that was nerfed.

 

The other specs already did no damage. What is a thief good for anymore?

[Elxdark.9702]

> @"santso.9201" said:

> > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > > > @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > > > > > lol. this change was good. stacking dmg modifiers outside of combat is dumb, it encourages one shot builds.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Did they make the same change to Maul?

> > > > >

> > > > > do ranger one shots have anything to do with teef one shots?

> > > >

> > > > can you tell me when was the last time a thief one shot you?

> > > > We are talking about PvP not WvW and we're talking about THIEF no Deadeye.

> > >

> > > Two days ago. 19k vault.

> > >

> >

> > we are close to 2019 and people still getting one shot by the most telegraphed skill in the game?

> > anyways 19k is not possible unless the thief is running critical strikes deadly arts daredevil with zerk amulet AND you have to be below 50%, it is still hard to achieve that damage in a normal ranked game.

> >

> > There's no reason to approve this change unless you hate thief which seems to be the perfect excuse to say " yeah mang it's a good nerf cuz thief can one shot from stealth duuuhh"

>

> All you need to do is activate assassins signet. Like in wvw you see 25k vaults against ppl with 2,5k armor

 

Again I'm not talking about WvW, in PVP (ranked and ATs) I haven't seen any thief one shotting someone from full hp, we can talk all day of how broken WvW is but PvP is not even close to that and shouldn't be affected by changes needed for WvW.