Adding the target based gameplay and holy trinity as new game mode

[Urud.4925]

This is probably going to be a wall of text, so I'll put a keyword for each paragraph, so you can skip it in case. The TL;DR is in the title.

 

_What I like in GW2_

I like to try different MMOs, just to see what ideas/solutions they found for the most common problems. Recently I started Final Fantasy XIV, and although it's a very good game, I appreciated even more some features we have in GW2 that I always took for granted.

- For example the map/travel system: in FFXIV (and in almost all the other MMOs that I tried) there are different layers (worlds/continents/major cities/local waypoints). If you want to go to a specific location, you might be forced to go to some NPC/main Aetheryte (Asura gate), then from there travel to the next region. Once arrived, talk to some NPC/interact with some device to use the local Aetherytes (waypoints). That's time consuming and confusing for new players, because you don't know yet where are you in the world/how far you have to travel and how the several regions are linked together/which statue (Aion) or flying horse (TERA) you must use. While in GW2 you can see everything on the same map (M) and simply teleport anywhere in Tyria.

- Changing class: in FFXIV you can learn and play all the classes, simply changing your weapon. This is cool. But we have something similar in GW2 (that I actually like even more). Changing weapon in GW2 may significantly change your gameplay, sometimes like a completely different class. If we were able to go further and change also the profession, we could for example go all thieves to pass through a very long path in a dungeon and then all change to warrior for example, or to ranger, depending on the fight. We can still change our utility skills here, and weapon, but keeping our profession is good to avoid exploits and silly gameplay. In FFXIV even mining tools are weapons, meaning that you must equip them if you want to gather and even spot gathering nodes (and if you are attacked while mining or looking for nodes, you can't change weapon in combat, so you must simply run).

 

_What I miss from other MMOS_

- Just one thing (well, actually 2): the target based system + holy trinity. But only sometimes. I mean, in general I definitely prefer the action combat we have in GW2, and I wouldn't change it. It's cool, you must be reactive, you can use the ground to your favour. The game seems more alive. For people who always prefer DPS classes, GW2 should be definitely better, 'cause you're not a simple damage dealer machine. I almost always played as healer though (sometimes as tank too) and I miss a bit that healing you cast to a random player in trouble (just happened yesterday, with a newbie like me, that aggroed a mob too strong for him: "ty! That was nice". And it was nice also for me.

 

_The suggestion_

First of all I'm not asking to change any mechanic we have. But to introduce a separate game mode where we play with this old target based system and a holy trinity.

For example, a new hub, like fractal of the mists, where people can enter, separated from the open world. Here, there could be few vendor NPCs and 1 NPC in particular that let you transform into an "avatar": a tank, a healer, a ranged DPS and a melee DPS. All of the 4 classes can only use 5 skills, no utility/elite skills. They would deal damage/heal for flat values, regardless of the gear. From the hub, players could choose the 7-8 dungeons that we already have, so no need to create too many content. But if they enter from this hub, the gameplay would be target-based, while from the current open PvE, they will remain exactly like they are now.

There won't be any particular loot, basically the same dungeon tokens we already have. Maybe a reward track, but not necessary. And some new achievement, like "play 10 times as tank", just to know all the classes, in order to understand every class' need and to improve the whole group. Nothing too farming though (like the hobby dungeon explorer). The big work would be to create 5x4 new themed skills and test them on the existing dungeons, with the target based mechanic. Every class will have different and unique skills, so no CC for all, to say.

 

Again, I don't want to change the current gameplay, 'cause I like it. But I'd like to bring in GW2 the only thing that sometimes I miss. Playing in group feels a bit too generic here. Though it's perfect for casuals like me, for the after work.

[phs.6089]

Isn't there a tab-target system in gw2?

Not sure they will bring trinity, they keep pushing that idea with hands and feet away.

We have surrogates of trinity, well we had till latest changes hit.

In a way I as person that mained tanking classes in most MMOs , I would love to see heavy armor lancer or medium armor 'agility tank'

[kharmin.7683]

Wasn't one of the core foundation principles supposed to be a lack of trinity? Wasn't GW2 supposed to be different than other MMOs in this regard? Isn't it so, now?

 

I would abhor the change to a core, trinity system. I play GW2 as a casual player and would not welcome such a system -- it is one reason why I don't play the many other MMOs that have trinity built in to them. I really can't see why ANet would spend resources in developing a new game mode which would appear to go against their ideas.

[Urud.4925]

> @"phs.6089" said:

> Isn't there a tab-target system in gw2?

> Not sure they will bring trinity, they keep pushing that idea with hands and feet away.

> We have surrogates of trinity, well we had till latest changes hit.

> In a way I as person that mained tanking classes in most MMOs , I would love to see heavy armor lancer or medium armor 'agility tank'

 

Right, we already have a target based system somehow. But I had in mind the "select party member 2 and heal him". We have general AoE regeneration usually. Same for tanking: we just have the enimity based on our toughness, not single skills to taunt for example (or at least, we have them, but not spammable as a tank would do).

 

And they have all my support in rejecting the holy trinity in GW2, as whole. My suggestion was an additional mode, not to replace the current one. If I had to choose, I would also pick up the current system, but it would be cool to have them both, separated.

[Biff.5312]

I kind of miss healing as well, but I much prefer the GW2 system for a number of reasons, chief among which is that you aren't at the mercy of a tank/healer to make the session playable. Too often in other games I've done a raid or something that was a waste of time because either the tank or the healer had a bad attitude.

[phs.6089]

> @"Urud.4925" said:

> > @"phs.6089" said:

> > Isn't there a tab-target system in gw2?

> > Not sure they will bring trinity, they keep pushing that idea with hands and feet away.

> > We have surrogates of trinity, well we had till latest changes hit.

> > In a way I as person that mained tanking classes in most MMOs , I would love to see heavy armor lancer or medium armor 'agility tank'

>

> Right, we already have a target based system somehow. But I had in mind the "select party member 2 and heal him". We have general AoE regeneration usually. Same for tanking: we just have the enimity based on our toughness, not single skills to taunt for example (or at least, we have them, but not spammable as a tank would do).

>

> And they have all my support in rejecting the holy trinity in GW2, as whole. My suggestion was an additional mode,.

 

I see, trough in 'crit heal' for the mod from me :)

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

I don't get it. We already have healer builds in the game. (Renegade, Druid, Firebrand, Tempest, Med kit scrapper) and support (Chrono, Scourge). There's even entire stat sets (diviners, harriers, minstrel) to that sort of thing. And they're rather relevant in Fractals, Raids, and WvW. Why are people saying they don't exist?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"Urud.4925" said:

> > @"phs.6089" said:

> > Isn't there a tab-target system in gw2?

> > Not sure they will bring trinity, they keep pushing that idea with hands and feet away.

> > We have surrogates of trinity, well we had till latest changes hit.

> > In a way I as person that mained tanking classes in most MMOs , I would love to see heavy armor lancer or medium armor 'agility tank'

>

> Right, we already have a target based system somehow. But I had in mind the "select party member 2 and heal him". We have general AoE regeneration usually. Same for tanking: we just have the enimity based on our toughness, not single skills to taunt for example (or at least, we have them, but not spammable as a tank would do).

>

> And they have all my support in rejecting the holy trinity in GW2, as whole. My suggestion was an additional mode, not to replace the current one. If I had to choose, I would also pick up the current system, but it would be cool to have them both, separated.

 

He is describing the ability to target your party members (often by clicking on their portrait) vs how we apply boons now which is to just activate the skill while in range of a friendly.

 

I suppose a mini-game of sorts could create a trinity system; the various mini-games we have in Wintersday for example allowed you to pick a 'role' depending on which weapon you selected at the entrance.

 

But you can't really do too much with this because it will cause confusion with the core game.

 

These are elements of an MMO you like, and miss, and that's fine. But GW2 is GW2, and trying to make it more like other MMOs is an unwise strategy, since the strength of GW2 is the different elements it has vs. other games.

 

If I had an itch to play a healer and heal a party whack-a-mole style , I can easily re-install WoW for that.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

 

> These are elements of an MMO you like, and miss, and that's fine. But GW2 is GW2, and trying to make it more like other MMOs is an unwise strategy, since the strength of GW2 is the different elements it has vs. other games.

Well said!

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

Even if this were a popular idea (and it doesn't seem to be), it would be a poor use of ANet's resources. They have a hard enough time balancing the core game and professions. Now, they'd have to rebalance for core and for this new hub. They'd have to test that the existing content (which the OP thinks requires no changes) doesn't actually require changes, especially since there are now only 5 skills to use, rather than 10.

 

[Leo G.4501]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> These are elements of an MMO you like, and miss, and that's fine. But GW2 is GW2, and trying to make it more like other MMOs is an unwise strategy, since the strength of GW2 is the different elements it has vs. other games.

>

> If I had an itch to play a healer and heal a party whack-a-mole style , I can easily re-install WoW for that.

 

Agreed with this.

 

I think, in this age of MMORPG, a lot of the studios in charge succeeded in making great improvements on the genre that engage their audience and while it would be the holy Grail if one game on the market could do all the good things better than all others, it's not feasible or practical.

 

For instance, I think blade and soul have a fantastic tanking system that requires adaptability and skill to do well and it tends to reward the tank that does their job (keep the attention of the mob while not getting destroyed) better than any other game out there. But it'd be unrealistic to expect a game like gw2 to copy that system.

 

It's simpler to just play multiple MMOs.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Urud.4925" said:

> > @"phs.6089" said:

> > Isn't there a tab-target system in gw2?

> > Not sure they will bring trinity, they keep pushing that idea with hands and feet away.

> > We have surrogates of trinity, well we had till latest changes hit.

> > In a way I as person that mained tanking classes in most MMOs , I would love to see heavy armor lancer or medium armor 'agility tank'

>

> Right, we already have a target based system somehow. But I had in mind the "select party member 2 and heal him". We have general AoE regeneration usually. Same for tanking: we just have the enimity based on our toughness, not single skills to taunt for example (or at least, we have them, but not spammable as a tank would do).

>

> And they have all my support in rejecting the holy trinity in GW2, as whole. My suggestion was an additional mode, not to replace the current one. If I had to choose, I would also pick up the current system, but it would be cool to have them both, separated.

 

Adding such a separate mode would mean reducing development of the game in other ways. What you are suggesting would be damaging to the existing game.

[MokahTGS.7850]

GW2 core gameplay is about non-trinity, action oriented playing. Not sure how you think completely changing out the gameplay mechanics would fix anything.

[Vlad Morbius.1759]

I play GW2 so i don't have to suffer through the trinity system. Nothing worse than standing around waiting for just the right piece to come online so you can get to actually play the content. I don't miss, healers or tanks asking for gold just to jump into your party like they're the be all end all. Just no that horrid system in GW2 there are countless MMO's out there using it so go for it but stop bellyaching about bringing that garbage into GW2 please.

[Blude.6812]

No trinity! It been discussed many many many many times and rejected. May I suggest the search function instead of revisiting an old topic.

[Trise.2865]

The idea of moving it off into side content is a good take. But remember, this deviates heavily from the game's core gameplay. This would have to be significantly different, which takes a lot of development time and resources. Are you prepared to put some of that work in? maybe draw up some concepts and crunch some numbers on how exactly this will work, what the players will be doing, what types of encounters, etc., etc.?

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

I don't like this "everyone is dps with a bit of flavor" mentality either but it's the way GW2 has been handling its combat from the start. It's what distinguishes its combat mechanics from other mmos and one of the selling points of the game. And like others said changing would require restructuring of core mechanics, which is time and resources better spent elsewhere.

[beeftotem.4137]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

I play GW2 as a casual player and would not welcome such a system

 

What does being a casual have to do with the topic?

 

 

To the op. I think the biggest issue to trying to do this is it would add one more level of balancing issues. Every class spell and trait would need a rework (buffs, nerfs). It would be a ton of work to maintain the balance across all the different systems. I have never raided in gw2 so if that is balanced around a sort of trinity system than just ignore me.

 

[Westenev.5289]

I have to admit, targeted heals do sound nice. As it stands, most heals and some buffs (ie. Mesmer wells) have flashy effects or leave behind white circles that people mistake for enemy attacks... so they dodge out of them!

[Urud.4925]

Despite I tried to repeat several times that I meant to talk about a new game mode (or mini-game, as Turkeyspit said) where players would play using some transformation (so no utility skills, traits etc. A kind of fake characters that have nothing to do with our real profession, with standard gear, without stats) and that I don't want to replace our current mechanic (that I like) at all, I see many comments saying "I'm casual, I don't like the system you describe, I don't want to change the core game". I never said that I want to change anything. But it's probably my fault, for the long post.

 

There are good comments too, from people who understood what I mean.

@"Biff.5312" That also can happen, true. I played mostly with friends, so I didn't really had bad times, but I remember some horrible run with pugs that ran left and right, far from each other, while I had to choose which player "to save", since they were all out of range. However, using the very same 8 dungeons that we currently have, and rewarding exactly the same dungeon tokens, it shouldn't cause any fuss. It would be just an alternative. But with new maps/dungeons, yes, you're right: in that case some player would feel forced to play something that they don't like. Probably me too.

 

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" That's the main point indeed: how many resources something similar would cost. I don't work for ANet (fortunately for all of us), so I can't tell. And how many people would play it (the post was basically to have an idea of this last question). If we had to use the same dungeons for example, with the same rewards (that nowadays everyone interested already got), probably it would be played for few weeks, just for curiosity, then abandoned, like the current dungeons.

[kharmin.7683]

> @"beeftotem.4137" said:

 

> What does being a casual have to do with the topic?

The casuals that I know don't care for holy trinity.

 

 

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"Urud.4925" said:

> That's the main point indeed: how many resources something similar would cost. I don't work for ANet (fortunately for all of us), so I can't tell.

My point is: it doesn't matter how many; it's going to be too many. It's a distraction (from ANet's point of view) of the core game and would need attention. It's vaguely equivalent to adding a new elite spec for each prof (i.e. your "transformation" is similar to what happens when choosing elite: the prof has new abilities). And yet these new abilities aren't usable anywhere except under these special conditions.

 

So regardless of the amount of effort, it's work that isn't being spent on an actual gamewide elite or a new story etc.

 

> If we had to use the same dungeons for example, with the same rewards (that nowadays everyone interested already got), probably it would be played for few weeks, just for curiosity, then abandoned, like the current dungeons.

Yes, that's a big issue, although... there's an argument to be made that this would allow (in theory) ANet to reuse assets. In practice, though, the "assets" are dependent on reusing mechanics.

Remember: our foes also use the existing skill system; they'd have to be modified, too (whether by mapping their skills to the new ones or what, hard to say).

 

Or here's another way to look at: what you want is SAB, only with Trinity Games as the "Nostalgia" mechanic rather than 8-bit platforming.

 

[beeftotem.4137]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> > @"beeftotem.4137" said:

>

> > What does being a casual have to do with the topic?

> The casuals that I know don't care for holy trinity.

>

>

 

What does being a casual have to do with the holy trinity is what I'm asking.

 

Not liking the Trinity and being a casual have nothing to do with each other. I am a casual and I enjoy the Trinity, but I also enjoy the way gw2 is as well.

 

If you don't like the responsibility that comes with tanking or healing then that is what your tastes are, but they still also don't have anything to do with being a casual.

 

Being a casual should mean either lack of available time to play or lack of static time to play. Nothing more. Being a "casual" has got a bad name in mmos because "casuals" use it as an excuse for EVERYTHING.

 

Give reasons why YOU don't like the system, leave being a casual out of it.

[zityz.6089]

GW1 has Holy Trinity- GW2 does not

GW1 has Tab Targeting- Gw2 does as well

GW1 allows you to play as all professions as your secondary as long as you had unlocked them for that character. GW2 has Elite specializations.

 

What your asking for, they already did in their first game.

[mauried.5608]

Would help somewhat if the OP explained what trinity means to them , because it has differant meanings in differant games.

eg the healer class in WOW is the only class that can heal and the only class that can res dead players, so if you want that type of gameplay in this game you wont get much support for it.

GW2 is fine as it is and doesnt need special snowflake type classes.