The problem I have with the Living Story content is our character is a Mary Sue

[Vayne.8563]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >That would be realistic, just as having to eat and use the restroom would be realistic, i.e. boring. In the third case, the allied NPCs would either perform great feats "off stage" (boring and unmemorable) or if they did them on screen, they'd be OP'd (memorable for the wrong reasons).

>

> Was "Band of brothers" or "Pacific", or "Saving Private Ryan" boring? No, they weren't. Yet, they were pretty realistic. What exactly does back up this your statement, then? Badly written story is boring (as most of the current GW2 story is), good story isn't boring - that's as simple as this.

 

The story isn't badly written, you just don't like it. There is a vast difference. I find lots of well-written stuff boring because it's written for an audience and I'm not part of that audience. That seems to be the problem here.

 

I didn't like the way Skyrim was presented because one character could do everything. He was the chosen one, the dragon born, etc.

 

Anet started this game more that way where you didn't do everything and players complained, in some cases quite loudly. This story is written with the lowest common denominator in mind. To appeal to the broadest swathe of players, ie people who don't pay attention to story that much and want to be THE hero. Writing to your audience isn't bad writing.

 

Assuming that it's bad writing is bad critiquing.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >That would be realistic, just as having to eat and use the restroom would be realistic, i.e. boring. In the third case, the allied NPCs would either perform great feats "off stage" (boring and unmemorable) or if they did them on screen, they'd be OP'd (memorable for the wrong reasons).

>

> Was "Band of brothers" or "Pacific", or "Saving Private Ryan" boring? No, they weren't. Yet, they were pretty realistic. What exactly does back up this your statement, then?

You seemed to have bypassed the point to pick a nit (which turns out to be inaccurate at that: not everyone liked those movies; many thought they were boring, in part because they spent too much time on being realistic, rather than telling the story).

 

Realism is ... just a device. By itself, it does not make the story at all, let alone an interesting one.

 

> Badly written story is boring (as most of the current GW2 story is), good story isn't boring - that's as simple as this.

If you want to oversimplify story telling to "it's either well written or poorly written," sure, then there's nothing to discuss.

 

The topic of conversation is whether the Commander is too powerful. And I asked, what is the alternative? If the commander is one of many, fans aren't invested. If the NPCs are comparably powerful, people complain that they steal the PC's thunder. That leaves the commander to do all the important work, which definitely makes them feel too powerful. As I said above: that's just less bad than the alternatives.

 

****

More importantly: the writing isn't going to change because some player insists that "most of current GW2 story is [boring]." If you want ANet to do differently, try explaining what is you don't like or would like to see. Don't just throw out words and hope that something sticks.

 

 

[Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497]

You're never going to have a story where the character isn't some sort of Mary/Gary sue. This is because the story -HAS- to bend over backwards for you in some way or form for there to even be a story. Otherwise, you basically got the story of some average joe in an office. And that's the rest of the book.

 

Mary sue's aren't something that should be avoided. As it is a tool. The main reason why it is a trope with such a bad name, is the origionator of the trope's story was so horrid that the entire fanfic broke all forms of logic, physics, and character personality to revolve around that character.

[Palador.2170]

> @"Knighthonor.4061" said:

> Its hard to get attached to the story in this game since its mostly in these living Story instances that make our character the one and sole hero in the game that does everything from soloing armies to soloing gods. I mean come on now. The rest of the cast is no longer epic at all. There are no real epic legendary NPC figures in this game. Nobody stands out. Even the evil Lore NPCs dont seem as tough when they can be soloed by a player character. My character is some kind of Mary Sue.

>

 

Hold on now... compared to who?

 

Compared to Destiny's Edge, the group that nearly killed an Elder Dragon with just a handfull of people, where we've never done it without an army beating on them to give us our shot?

 

Or maybe compared to just Rytlock Brimstone, the charr that wields an ACTUAL legendary sword? One of the highest ranking people of his entire race, who jumped into the mists to get his sword back, encountered the fallen god of war, gained spirit powers from Glint (the legendary crystal dragon of prophecy) herself, and then showed back up just in time to help us in an area he'd never even been to before?

 

Or maybe you're comparing us to Almorra Soulkeeper, the charr that not only founded one of the three Orders of Tyria, but actually took a direct branding hit from Kralk and shrugged it off (something even Aurene couldn't do), then proceeded to kill off her entire branded warband, single-handedly?

 

Are you comparing the Commander to Lord Farren? The guy that survived in the Maguuma jungle with nothing but a sword and a loincloth? The guy that made a suicide run through scarab plague and awakened-infested areas to make sure that the attack against Joko's forces could continue, and actually managed to survive?

 

Or maybe Riot Alice, the person that actually saw though one of Countess Anise's illusions without even trying?

 

You get the point, right? The Commander isn't the only outstanding character, they're just the one the main story focuses on. And as for the bad guys, most of the non-dragon villains are just as much a single person as we are in the end. They might have a lot of people backing them up, but so do we. And they might have a lot of magical power, but the Commander also builds that up over time.

 

And while we might have been doing the heavy lifting/combat to move things along, it was Kasmeer that decided she was fed up with being in the dark, and it was time to kick open Kormir's door and demand some answers.

[Randulf.7614]

There’s a thread in the lore forum which basically shows on our own we basically fail. Our successes are always hand in hand with other characters

[Rattengeist.8165]

> @"CJH.2879" said:

> I'm still hoping for a major plot twist in the protagonists story, that it turns out your actually a half god. This would help explain not just how but why your main hero has always (with a little help along the way), triumphed in the end while others have fallen.

>

But so far, if we look at the main, big villains, none of them got taken down by the Pact Commander alone:

Modremoth - you had to take 2 allies with you and absolutely needed their help. Balthazar - only possible with Aurene's help/magic. Without Aurene's help, the PC died painfully. Joko - even with the help of one ally, impossible to kill, only died because of Aurene. Zaithan - well.. I mean we got airship canoons for help, so no pure raw damage from the PC alone

 

I mean, I wouldn't really call this "little help", especially since PoF because Aurene is the reason why we suceed over and over again. As for other Bossfights, I feel like there was always Rox, Brahm or whatever closeby to help (even though they barely do real damage to the HP bar, but that's just a gameplay-mechanic. The PC does not do 100% more damage then the other allies lore-wise)

 

And I love your theory about being a half-god! But how would that work for Sylvari?

[Aeon.4583]

In my view, after certain events of Departing story chapter, our characters are new Kings Jokos.

 

Let's see. Character kill Zhaitan and Mordremoth, not without help btw. But then fails in fight with Balthazar in 1 on 1 combat. Returns back to life from unnatural means and becomes this unstoppable force, that even Joko admires. Simple.

[Westenev.5289]

Remember the time we died, or all of the times "Lazarus" escaped?

 

That sure felt like a win.

[CJH.2879]

> @"Rattengeist.8165" said:

>

> And I love your theory about being a half-god! But how would that work for Sylvari?

 

Well use your imagination, perhaps one of the gods helped create one of the pale tree's newborn sylvari (aren't they directly influenced/created by magic itself?, something that both dragons and gods have in common), this could of been done because the gods themselves knew of the impending battles with the dragons & what was at stake). The pale tree could have had this knowledge all along but neglected to tell you to protect you. A half god would be a primary target for any powerful being that wanted to thwart any kind of resistance or opposition to them >> (dragons/liche's ect).

 

This to me would make perfect sense, each of the races protagonists could have been born from an actual god. The gods themselves could have had several reasons for doing so such as it was the only way to directly influence the world of tyria without them being physically there themselves & without the mortals having knowledge that they were never abadoned all along but were being watched through there offspring & influenced along the way through there childs actions. Its both a direct & in-direct way to influence the world of tyria without the gods themselves putting there lifes at stake or upsetting the balance of magic that exists within tyria.

 

The protagonist always triumphed in the end, but yes I do agree with you, others always supported/helped them along the way, even a half-god would need help to change the final outcome of any battle. The protagonist themselves does often blurr the line between hero & what I would call half-god from doing things such as directly vs a god 1 on 1 (Balthazar) to coming back from the dead itself. Sooo I honestly wouldn't be overly shocked if eventually that story arc is revealed. It would be quite interesting to see how everyone reacted if they suddenly found out your true lineage.

 

[AlexxxDelta.1806]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >That would be realistic, just as having to eat and use the restroom would be realistic, i.e. boring. In the third case, the allied NPCs would either perform great feats "off stage" (boring and unmemorable) or if they did them on screen, they'd be OP'd (memorable for the wrong reasons).

>

> Was "Band of brothers" or "Pacific", or "Saving Private Ryan" boring? No, they weren't. Yet, they were pretty realistic. What exactly does back up this your statement, then? Badly written story is boring (as most of the current GW2 story is), good story isn't boring - that's as simple as this.

 

None of those was a video game, you are comparing apples to oranges. Video games are a different beast when it comes to writing, since the plot needs to revolve around the PC in some way. It comes with interactivity.

 

That's not to say there are not levels to this, there's good and bad writing in games too.

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

well i'm playing the game, so i want to be the special one and not the normal one.

[Maikimaik.1974]

> @"MoriMoriMori.5349" said:

> > @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> >That would be realistic, just as having to eat and use the restroom would be realistic, i.e. boring. In the third case, the allied NPCs would either perform great feats "off stage" (boring and unmemorable) or if they did them on screen, they'd be OP'd (memorable for the wrong reasons).

>

> Was "Band of brothers" or "Pacific", or "Saving Private Ryan" boring? No, they weren't. Yet, they were pretty realistic. What exactly does back up this your statement, then? Badly written story is boring (as most of the current GW2 story is), good story isn't boring - that's as simple as this.

 

So apparently Guild Wars 2 is a movie now.

[Ultramex.1506]

How about in the next episode, we go on a journey alone, we make our own decisions that can result in either failure and live with it or success but with high cost. I have alway wanted Anet to make us fight threats, meeting new people without Dragon's Watch, like The Departing but expand on it.

[coso.9173]

it also is very difficut to do because everyone wants different things from their own characters. not counting all the different roleplaying differences, some people want to be "them" in this world and mostly just mostly react to outside events. others want a more fleshed out character with actual personality, and other even prefer the "silent protagonist". it's vastly different options, and the more you define the character the most some people won't enjoy it. (I personally prefer a fleshed out character, like playing geralt in the witcher series.)

[Dami.5046]

Who's Mary sue? Do they play Mesmer? Questions!!!!!

[Tarlonniel.6534]

> @"Dami.5046" said:

> Who's Mary sue? Do they play Mesmer? Questions!!!!!

 

Everyone knows that Mary Sue is the only multiclass character in the game - a mesmer 40/necromancer 40. She's also a half-sylvari, half-human hybrid, the secret love child of Countess Anise and Trahearne, and is destined to unite the two races under her rule when Jennah and the Pale Tree conveniently die after naming her their successor.

[sorudo.9054]

first we had to just defend a skyship and the rest was done by others, then we had a dragon we could never physically hurt so we had to do some stupid mind battle, last we had to fight a god with the help of no less then two dragons.

and now we have ppl being horrified that we finally kill a dragon kinda on our own, seriously?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"sorudo.9054" said:

> first we had to just defend a skyship and the rest was done by others, then we had a dragon we could never physically hurt so we had to do some stupid mind battle, last we had to fight a god with the help of no less then two dragons.

> and now we have ppl being horrified that we finally kill a dragon kinda on our own, seriously?

And did we even kill it on our own, or were we just a glorified helper to a real (NPC) champion, the Draco Ex Machina?

 

[Justine.6351]

Could just role a male character. Problem solved.

[TwiceDead.1963]

> @"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

> First, try not to use the term "Mary Sue." That ends up turning the discussion into "what is a Mary Sue," for which there is no **agreed-upon definition.**

 

Not true.

 

There is an agreed upon definition, because the term in it's conception had a clear goal, and has a traceable point of origin as far back as the 1970's and has remained more or less consistent up till today.

 

People can try to argue otherwise, but they'd be wrong.

 

Anyways here I go turning the discussion into "Whatevs", so I'm just gonna retire to not hijack the thread further. Muh'bad.

 

[Leo G.4501]

Haven't read the whole thread yet, but in my opinion, I think the problem is the world of Tyria and the world threatening plot.

 

That is, the main character seems to be the only one making headway into changing such a catastrophic world changing event. In a world of magic and realms and spirits and other crazy stuff, where are the people building arcs to escape? Where are the ones worshiping these elder dragons as gods and pushing to surrender civilization to them? The splinter groups with their own methods of fighting this menace or the spiritualists using their knowledge to heal the world?

 

Now I'm sure you could point to some examples of those in GW2 but it's less than supplemental. Those dragon corrupted factions never do anything or make any moves. The threat is absolute and nothing can escape. There is no alternatives thus no depth and no adventure. Everything is a straight road and your player character has the keys and in the driver's seat.

 

So I could see why people think the PC is a Mary Sue. I'm of the opinion that every main character ends up being some form or fashion of a Mary Sue, for some fraction of their story at least. It just so happens that the fraction might be a bit thicker for the LW story and it's the only story really elaborated on.

[Zuldari.3940]

Reminds me of EQ in its heyday, oh you lost...you lost big.

[Trise.2865]

First wave: "How come I'm not the Chosen One? This sucks!"

Today: "How come I'm the Chosen One? This sucks!"

 

No pleasing people...

[Turkeyspit.3965]

At least in this game you are "the commander". In WoW you were just one of 40/25/10 people who killed a boss. I vividly remember when the 3rd xpac launched, Wrath of the Lich King, after defeating all the bosses of Outland, you then have to get in line with other recruits to get onto a boat for Northland. I remember at the time thinking "lol, don't you know who I am??".

 

I appreciate all the comments you hear from various NPCs about the Commander, even those not story related. What's wrong with being made to feel the hero?

 

 

[sorudo.9054]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"sorudo.9054" said:

> > first we had to just defend a skyship and the rest was done by others, then we had a dragon we could never physically hurt so we had to do some stupid mind battle, last we had to fight a god with the help of no less then two dragons.

> > and now we have ppl being horrified that we finally kill a dragon kinda on our own, seriously?

> And did we even kill it on our own, or were we just a glorified helper to a real (NPC) champion, the Draco Ex Machina?

>

 

that's the point, calling the PC a mary sue while it never really killed anything on it's own is really a whine in my book.