RedShark.9548 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > Retaliation is dumb because it punishes something you have to do to win a fight, attacking. > > It feels dumb seeing 20-30% of the dmg you take in like a 3v10 to be just retaliation. > > It does very little except punishing hitting multiple enemies at the same time, which should be rewarded. > thats very subjective, i think focusing ppl should be rewarded (since that takes more coordination), not mindlessly spewing your aoes into the enemy group. because the exact same goes for the bigger group, they can just spew all their aoes into your 3 man and you die even faster. removing retal just encourages MORE AOE spamfests. such fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > Retaliation is dumb because it punishes something you have to do to win a fight, attacking. > > > > It feels dumb seeing 20-30% of the dmg you take in like a 3v10 to be just retaliation. > > > > It does very little except punishing hitting multiple enemies at the same time, which should be rewarded. > > > > thats very subjective, i think focusing ppl should be rewarded (since that takes more coordination), not mindlessly spewing your aoes into the enemy group. AoE is meant to be the counter to stacking. Hitting AoEs correctly is harder than hitting "take target" and just spamming single target stuff. > because the exact same goes for the bigger group, they can just spew all their aoes into your 3 man and you die even faster. AoEs benefit smaller more skilled groups more. If my AoE hits 5 targets that's essentially me doing 400% more dmg, if those 10 can only hit 2 of us at a time they're only doing 100% more. They already can. Also you can counter that by spreading. > removing retal just encourages MORE AOE spamfests. such fun. Nah it just removes a weird arbitrary bonus for big groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 It realty should be removed or at least made borderline pointless. When it can out dmg the burning from fire aura there a real problem in balancing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Jski.6180" said: > It realty should be removed or at least made borderline pointless. When it can out dmg the burning from fire aura there a real problem in balancing. Retaliation should be tweaked changed to something else imo. Some stuff needs to be removed from boon into something else, retaliation is one of those boons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KryTiKaL.3125 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > @"KryTiKaL.3125" said: > > > > > @"Lan Deathrider.5910" said: > > > > > Make retaliation only damage once, but raise the coefficient on it to compensate. > > > > > > > > If they made Retaliation only damage once that would only make multi hit skills that much stronger, and likely ideal to use, in situations where Retaliation is active on their target. For Retaliation to still be a deterrent for multi hit skills like Rapid Fire, Hundred Blades, Unload, etc then the amount that they would need to raise the coefficient for damage on it would need to be significant and that would only create another problem rather than fix the current "problem". > > > > > > > > I can see the problem it raises in regards to large scale or dropping a lot of AoE onto a group of players but you'd be attempting to balance how an entire boon works based on *zerg* play, regardless of its importance in WvW, when zerg play within itself is just a flat out mess when it comes to this game and doing anything to Retaliation isn't going to change that. > > > > > > Well, if that retaliation did 500 + 0.15*Power as damage it would still be a deterrent. > > > > I mean for those calculations lets assume 2700 power is being used. > > > > **Current**: > > (0.050 * 2700) + 133 = 268 (per hit) > > > > **Proposed**: > > (0.15 * 2700) + 500 = 905 (single hit) > > > > So it is a significant increase in damage but it only procs once which means any Rapid Fire, Hundred Blades, Unload, etc would continue on with no repercussions so long as they know they can survive 900 or so damage. Thats really not much of a deterrent. I'd eat 900~ damage if it meant the rest of my multi hit skill wasn't going to continuously proc Retaliation damage, or just continue attacking with other skills. > > > > Like I said, I'm aware that in a zerg it can be viewed as problematic because if multiple people have Retaliation then it means it is going to proc multiple times off of any AoE hit. While Retaliation might last too long right now, especially with any boon duration, you still can't balance an entire boon around the fact that its potentially problematic in a scenario (zerg fights) that is, again, a flat out mess to begin with. > > > > Also even in the case of increasing the coefficient as you say there is still a problem, if Retaliation procs multiple times due to multiple players under its effects that get hit with an AoE. Lets say 5 players have Retaliation, all 5 players get hit by the AoE and it procs once per player...with that proposed change that would be near 5000~ damage off a single tick of AoE with the potential for much more should targets within the radius of said AoE change (i.e new players enter its radius and some of the others leave). So the problem still persists...in fact that idea just kind of makes it worse. > > Retaliation even in its current form won't deter someone from using Rapid Fire, Hundred Blades, or Unload. Its always been an issue within the Zerg with the carpet AoE there. In small scale no one is standing in a red circle to get a Retaliation proc. Sure, but thats not the point. I'm saying your suggestion to, I assume, resolve it as an issue in large scale wouldn't actually fix anything. It would, if anything, make things worse in large scale and it would just stay the same in small scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pulsefire Jayce.4753 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 Retal used to be 100% damage in WvW and PvP. Now it's 66% damage. Imagine how fucked you would be if Anet raised it back to 100% damage :Kappa: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > Retaliation is dumb because it punishes something you have to do to win a fight, attacking. > > > > > > It feels dumb seeing 20-30% of the dmg you take in like a 3v10 to be just retaliation. > > > > > > It does very little except punishing hitting multiple enemies at the same time, which should be rewarded. > > > > > > > thats very subjective, i think focusing ppl should be rewarded (since that takes more coordination), not mindlessly spewing your aoes into the enemy group. > > AoE is meant to be the counter to stacking. Hitting AoEs correctly is harder than hitting "take target" and just spamming single target stuff. > > > because the exact same goes for the bigger group, they can just spew all their aoes into your 3 man and you die even faster. > > AoEs benefit smaller more skilled groups more. > > If my AoE hits 5 targets that's essentially me doing 400% more dmg, if those 10 can only hit 2 of us at a time they're only doing 100% more. > > They already can. Also you can counter that by spreading. > > > removing retal just encourages MORE AOE spamfests. such fun. > > Nah it just removes a weird arbitrary bonus for big groups. guess we have very different opinions on this matter, coordinating your single target skills is not as easy as you say, paired with support, choosing the right target etc. anyways, if you honestly fight 3v10 and those 10 lose against your 3ppl they kitten balls and it doesnt matter if they have retal or not. it just doesnt. you are just slaughtering noobs at this point, good job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > Retaliation is dumb because it punishes something you have to do to win a fight, attacking. > > > > > > > > It feels dumb seeing 20-30% of the dmg you take in like a 3v10 to be just retaliation. > > > > > > > > It does very little except punishing hitting multiple enemies at the same time, which should be rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > thats very subjective, i think focusing ppl should be rewarded (since that takes more coordination), not mindlessly spewing your aoes into the enemy group. > > > > AoE is meant to be the counter to stacking. Hitting AoEs correctly is harder than hitting "take target" and just spamming single target stuff. > > > > > because the exact same goes for the bigger group, they can just spew all their aoes into your 3 man and you die even faster. > > > > AoEs benefit smaller more skilled groups more. > > > > If my AoE hits 5 targets that's essentially me doing 400% more dmg, if those 10 can only hit 2 of us at a time they're only doing 100% more. > > > > They already can. Also you can counter that by spreading. > > > > > removing retal just encourages MORE AOE spamfests. such fun. > > > > Nah it just removes a weird arbitrary bonus for big groups. > > guess we have very different opinions on this matter, coordinating your single target skills is not as easy as you say, paired with support, choosing the right target etc. It's pretty easy Be on ts Mark target Say "nuke target" If you're feeling really excited you can do a countdown I guess > anyways, if you honestly fight 3v10 and those 10 lose against your 3ppl they kitten balls and it doesnt matter if they have retal or not. it just doesnt. you are just slaughtering noobs at this point, good job. Well sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, either retal way is 20%+ of dmg taken. Fighting outnumbered is really the only exciting thing to do anyway. Obviously they're worse, that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Babytater.6803 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 This is such a silly discussion. Retaliation will never kill you if you have proper support. Sounds like people are just salty for losing HP because they hit a thousand targets. It's an interesting boon for sure though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedShark.9548 Posted February 20, 2020 Share Posted February 20, 2020 > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > Retaliation is dumb because it punishes something you have to do to win a fight, attacking. > > > > > > > > > > It feels dumb seeing 20-30% of the dmg you take in like a 3v10 to be just retaliation. > > > > > > > > > > It does very little except punishing hitting multiple enemies at the same time, which should be rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > thats very subjective, i think focusing ppl should be rewarded (since that takes more coordination), not mindlessly spewing your aoes into the enemy group. > > > > > > AoE is meant to be the counter to stacking. Hitting AoEs correctly is harder than hitting "take target" and just spamming single target stuff. > > > > > > > because the exact same goes for the bigger group, they can just spew all their aoes into your 3 man and you die even faster. > > > > > > AoEs benefit smaller more skilled groups more. > > > > > > If my AoE hits 5 targets that's essentially me doing 400% more dmg, if those 10 can only hit 2 of us at a time they're only doing 100% more. > > > > > > They already can. Also you can counter that by spreading. > > > > > > > removing retal just encourages MORE AOE spamfests. such fun. > > > > > > Nah it just removes a weird arbitrary bonus for big groups. > > > > guess we have very different opinions on this matter, coordinating your single target skills is not as easy as you say, paired with support, choosing the right target etc. > > It's pretty easy > Be on ts > Mark target > Say "nuke target" > If you're feeling really excited you can do a countdown I guess > > > anyways, if you honestly fight 3v10 and those 10 lose against your 3ppl they kitten balls and it doesnt matter if they have retal or not. it just doesnt. you are just slaughtering noobs at this point, good job. > > Well sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, either retal way is 20%+ of dmg taken. > > Fighting outnumbered is really the only exciting thing to do anyway. Obviously they're worse, that's the point. ahh yes. its that easy while fighting noobs... maybe look for players that are on your level and not new to the game, or on their way to the zerg without intention of giving you a real fight. balance should be happening around equally skilled groups, not for you to farm noobs more easily, because thats essentially what you want. if you were to fight 10 ppl that were equally skilled as you, they would wipe the floor with your 3 ppl. so in a battle of 3v3 equally skilled ppl, you wont have any issues with reta, and if you had 10 ppl to fight 10 equally skilled ppl, they would have the same problems with reta as you had. and then you and your enemies would need to consider that aswell, instead of just bombing the kitten out of each other with big aoes. i see no reason to change reta. its not a big offender, its not nuking you unexpectedly down, like some skills out there. its something you have to play around, and you can play around it. but dont remove it, just to help you farm some kittens. and btw, if target focus isnt skilled at all, i dont know what spewing around aoes is. thats even easier to do. you are having fun doing that ? yikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted February 20, 2020 Author Share Posted February 20, 2020 When putting down a "perfect AE bomb", I go downed without getting hit a single time, no matter if I dodge or hide, no matter if I'm near or far from the enemy. My assumption was, that to fight, you need to act, both to defend yourself, as well as to kill an enemy. Slapping on a boon which just causes the enemy to suicide themselves without any way of countering that is nothing but bad game design, in my opinion. I cannot stop the AE once it is down, an attack can be halted if the enemy throws up a reflect, I can go out of line of sight to not get hit back or switch the way I attack to ground based skills. Retaliation, on the other hand, can only be avoided by removing the boon from the enemy (or hoping it drops off), which is not something most builds can (reliably) do. Not to mention, there is absolutely no way to make sure that there aren't enemies with the boon in an enemy zerg. There is no significant visual effect (especially when you have to play with lowered graphics/player count) that alarms you of it, unlike with most reflects and other things that punish for attacking. By the time you notice, it may just be too late, espeically when you get 200+ dmg per tick - that can mean 1k health lost with every meteor coming down in a Meteor Shower, no matter what damage you actually do to the enemy, and not to mention Lava Font or other AEs ticking at the same time. Trust me, with the limited health pool of an Ele, even with full Marauder, this will melt you faster than you can heal back up. You talk about having support around ... personally I enjoy sneaky bombs, and usually that means little support around. Why should the enemy zerg not be punished for not paying attention, why punish someone for using tactics to attack someone from outside a zerg? Is there not enough punishment already, once the enemy zerg does pay attention? But I'm probably repeating myself. > @"Kovu.7560" said: > Put a 2k range limit on the effects of retaliation, change retaliation so that it can be blocked or evaded, allow failure to line of sight to block retaliation damage and work diminishing returns onto it so the professions that deliver the same amount of damage in _more_ hits aren't as screwed over by it. That would nerf it in larger fights but (theoretically) maintain its contribution to smaller fights. > > I can't say I'm too fond of effects that don't actually require you to interact with the target to hurt them in some way, but most of them are fairly weak. > > ~ Kovu > > edit- Oh wow, ancient thread is ancient. A change to it would be nice, any change that nerfs it. If it was a boon that only stuck to the caster it'd be a bit better. Overall though, I just don't see how it improves gameplay in any way, considering pretty much allows counter-attacking without doing anything - theoretically you could kill people by just popping retal, standing in their AE and healing yourself (unless you just go super tanky). That's just horrible game mechanics, in my opinion. The thread is not "ancient", old, maybe, but the issue persists unchanged and I saw little reason to make a new thread for it. I wanted to post a compilation of a few more arcdps reports some time ago, but I must have deleted them at some point before I got around to it. Luckily I haven't met many of these extremely retaliation focussed zergs in the mean time, or often didn't bother documenting it, not to mention usually just avoiding fighting them. Or I'd just stop playing instead of getting frustrated by this again and again. It's one thing to die because you played badly, or because the enemy just played better, but unavoidably dying to merely just attacking an enemy without them having to react... let's just say there are better ways to spend time than trying to force your head through a wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celsith.2753 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Luranni.9470" said: > Translation: My ranged aoe spam isn't quite as mindless as I need it to be. Pls fix. :D :D Except, if his ranged aoe spam was mindless, it wouldn't be bothering him nearly as much. Retal punishes players who are thinking about where to attack to maximize their effectiveness. An ele spamming mindless wherever isn't constantly hitting large clumps, or down clumps, or a good choke. The more you try to be effective, the more retal punishes you. And this is without the enemy doing anything at all because retal is handed out like candy. And are you supposed to tab target everyone you MIGHT hit, just to check if they have retal before you attack? If that was even possible before that clump disperses. Aoe classes would end up like rangers, spending 3/4 of the fight twiddlng their thumbs until their unblockable comes up ;) I'm actually surprised I haven't seen more complaints about retal. I regard it as one of the most stupidest ideas for a boon I've ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lodjur.1284 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > @"RedShark.9548" said: > > > > > > @"lodjur.1284" said: > > > > > > Retaliation is dumb because it punishes something you have to do to win a fight, attacking. > > > > > > > > > > > > It feels dumb seeing 20-30% of the dmg you take in like a 3v10 to be just retaliation. > > > > > > > > > > > > It does very little except punishing hitting multiple enemies at the same time, which should be rewarded. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > thats very subjective, i think focusing ppl should be rewarded (since that takes more coordination), not mindlessly spewing your aoes into the enemy group. > > > > > > > > AoE is meant to be the counter to stacking. Hitting AoEs correctly is harder than hitting "take target" and just spamming single target stuff. > > > > > > > > > because the exact same goes for the bigger group, they can just spew all their aoes into your 3 man and you die even faster. > > > > > > > > AoEs benefit smaller more skilled groups more. > > > > > > > > If my AoE hits 5 targets that's essentially me doing 400% more dmg, if those 10 can only hit 2 of us at a time they're only doing 100% more. > > > > > > > > They already can. Also you can counter that by spreading. > > > > > > > > > removing retal just encourages MORE AOE spamfests. such fun. > > > > > > > > Nah it just removes a weird arbitrary bonus for big groups. > > > > > > guess we have very different opinions on this matter, coordinating your single target skills is not as easy as you say, paired with support, choosing the right target etc. > > > > It's pretty easy > > Be on ts > > Mark target > > Say "nuke target" > > If you're feeling really excited you can do a countdown I guess > > > > > anyways, if you honestly fight 3v10 and those 10 lose against your 3ppl they kitten balls and it doesnt matter if they have retal or not. it just doesnt. you are just slaughtering noobs at this point, good job. > > > > Well sometimes we win, sometimes we lose, either retal way is 20%+ of dmg taken. > > > > Fighting outnumbered is really the only exciting thing to do anyway. Obviously they're worse, that's the point. > > ahh yes. its that easy while fighting noobs... > maybe look for players that are on your level and not new to the game, or on their way to the zerg without intention of giving you a real fight. > > balance should be happening around equally skilled groups, not for you to farm noobs more easily, because thats essentially what you want. if you were to fight 10 ppl that were equally skilled as you, they would wipe the floor with your 3 ppl. A sign of good balance is when outnumbered fights are frequent. It shows that skill matters. Retal adds nothing to the game except punish you for hitting your skills well. Things like AoE caps, retal, downstate all are random arbitrary benefits for a larger groups that rewards absolutely terrible gameplay (stacking in AoEs, free dmg for being hit and going down respectively) > so in a battle of 3v3 equally skilled ppl, you wont have any issues with reta, and if you had 10 ppl to fight 10 equally skilled ppl, they would have the same problems with reta as you had. and then you and your enemies would need to consider that aswell, instead of just bombing the kitten out of each other with big aoes. In 10v10 retal isn't a consideration. It actually never is a consideration, all you can really do about it is outheal it, but it adds free passive pressure to the worst players, the ones that can even move out of AoEs. > i see no reason to change reta. its not a big offender, its not nuking you unexpectedly down, like some skills out there. its something you have to play around, and you can play around it. but dont remove it, just to help you farm some kittens. You can't "play around it". To win fights you need to do dmg, retal punishes you for hitting your attacks and for a variety of reasons has an uptime near 100%. > and btw, if target focus isnt skilled at all, i dont know what spewing around aoes is. thats even easier to do. you are having fun doing that ? yikes. > You need to think of where you put your AoEs to maximize effectiveness and how to herd your enemies there, much more difficult than hitting take target. Retal essentially only makes it so that you take 20-30% more dmg when outnumbered and I guess instantly downs people in zergs who got AoE multihits. Hardly things that improve the game, it doesn't do anything in any other scenario. Removing it would definitively not hurt the lag problem either as retal is probably at least 30-40% of the damage packets in zergs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenHowl.2419 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Syrus.2174" said: > When putting down a "perfect AE bomb", I go downed without getting hit a single time, no matter if I dodge or hide, no matter if I'm near or far from the enemy. My assumption was, that to fight, you need to act, both to defend yourself, as well as to kill an enemy. Slapping on a boon which just causes the enemy to suicide themselves without any way of countering that is nothing but bad game design, in my opinion. I cannot stop the AE once it is down, an attack can be halted if the enemy throws up a reflect, I can go out of line of sight to not get hit back or switch the way I attack to ground based skills. Retaliation, on the other hand, can only be avoided by removing the boon from the enemy (or hoping it drops off), which is not something most builds can (reliably) do. > > Not to mention, there is absolutely no way to make sure that there aren't enemies with the boon in an enemy zerg. There is no significant visual effect (especially when you have to play with lowered graphics/player count) that alarms you of it, unlike with most reflects and other things that punish for attacking. By the time you notice, it may just be too late, espeically when you get 200+ dmg per tick - that can mean 1k health lost with every meteor coming down in a Meteor Shower, no matter what damage you actually do to the enemy, and not to mention Lava Font or other AEs ticking at the same time. Trust me, with the limited health pool of an Ele, even with full Marauder, this will melt you faster than you can heal back up. > > You talk about having support around ... personally I enjoy sneaky bombs, and usually that means little support around. Why should the enemy zerg not be punished for not paying attention, why punish someone for using tactics to attack someone from outside a zerg? Is there not enough punishment already, once the enemy zerg does pay attention? > > But I'm probably repeating myself. > > > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > Put a 2k range limit on the effects of retaliation, change retaliation so that it can be blocked or evaded, allow failure to line of sight to block retaliation damage and work diminishing returns onto it so the professions that deliver the same amount of damage in _more_ hits aren't as screwed over by it. That would nerf it in larger fights but (theoretically) maintain its contribution to smaller fights. > > > > I can't say I'm too fond of effects that don't actually require you to interact with the target to hurt them in some way, but most of them are fairly weak. > > > > ~ Kovu > > > > edit- Oh wow, ancient thread is ancient. > > A change to it would be nice, any change that nerfs it. If it was a boon that only stuck to the caster it'd be a bit better. Overall though, I just don't see how it improves gameplay in any way, considering pretty much allows counter-attacking without doing anything - theoretically you could kill people by just popping retal, standing in their AE and healing yourself (unless you just go super tanky). That's just horrible game mechanics, in my opinion. > > The thread is not "ancient", old, maybe, but the issue persists unchanged and I saw little reason to make a new thread for it. > I wanted to post a compilation of a few more arcdps reports some time ago, but I must have deleted them at some point before I got around to it. Luckily I haven't met many of these extremely retaliation focussed zergs in the mean time, or often didn't bother documenting it, not to mention usually just avoiding fighting them. Or I'd just stop playing instead of getting frustrated by this again and again. > > It's one thing to die because you played badly, or because the enemy just played better, but unavoidably dying to merely just attacking an enemy without them having to react... let's just say there are better ways to spend time than trying to force your head through a wall. retaliation has an easy counter: run more vitality or heal. removing it would be a shame, everyone would just start running full glass backline classes. the only thing stopping people now is the skill required to balance your damage output with the incoming retal damage while positioning yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 There are alot of joke threads in this Forum lately but this one takes the cake. The only class that has even a chance to die from reta is weaver. But what AoEs on it even hits enough to make reta dangerous? Staff Fire 2? If the enemy moves like he supposed to , he wont stand in it long enough for it to matter. Yes even against 50+. Meteorshowers hits are slow enough to outheal the reta dmg. If your Firebrand/scrapper, you should have in your group, is pressing a button or two per minute. Ohh and if you play longbow ranger and you die because of longbow 5... Get the kitten out of WvW and come back with a propper class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > @"Syrus.2174" said: > > When putting down a "perfect AE bomb", I go downed without getting hit a single time, no matter if I dodge or hide, no matter if I'm near or far from the enemy. My assumption was, that to fight, you need to act, both to defend yourself, as well as to kill an enemy. Slapping on a boon which just causes the enemy to suicide themselves without any way of countering that is nothing but bad game design, in my opinion. I cannot stop the AE once it is down, an attack can be halted if the enemy throws up a reflect, I can go out of line of sight to not get hit back or switch the way I attack to ground based skills. Retaliation, on the other hand, can only be avoided by removing the boon from the enemy (or hoping it drops off), which is not something most builds can (reliably) do. > > > > Not to mention, there is absolutely no way to make sure that there aren't enemies with the boon in an enemy zerg. There is no significant visual effect (especially when you have to play with lowered graphics/player count) that alarms you of it, unlike with most reflects and other things that punish for attacking. By the time you notice, it may just be too late, espeically when you get 200+ dmg per tick - that can mean 1k health lost with every meteor coming down in a Meteor Shower, no matter what damage you actually do to the enemy, and not to mention Lava Font or other AEs ticking at the same time. Trust me, with the limited health pool of an Ele, even with full Marauder, this will melt you faster than you can heal back up. > > > > You talk about having support around ... personally I enjoy sneaky bombs, and usually that means little support around. Why should the enemy zerg not be punished for not paying attention, why punish someone for using tactics to attack someone from outside a zerg? Is there not enough punishment already, once the enemy zerg does pay attention? > > > > But I'm probably repeating myself. > > > > > > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > > Put a 2k range limit on the effects of retaliation, change retaliation so that it can be blocked or evaded, allow failure to line of sight to block retaliation damage and work diminishing returns onto it so the professions that deliver the same amount of damage in _more_ hits aren't as screwed over by it. That would nerf it in larger fights but (theoretically) maintain its contribution to smaller fights. > > > > > > I can't say I'm too fond of effects that don't actually require you to interact with the target to hurt them in some way, but most of them are fairly weak. > > > > > > ~ Kovu > > > > > > edit- Oh wow, ancient thread is ancient. > > > > A change to it would be nice, any change that nerfs it. If it was a boon that only stuck to the caster it'd be a bit better. Overall though, I just don't see how it improves gameplay in any way, considering pretty much allows counter-attacking without doing anything - theoretically you could kill people by just popping retal, standing in their AE and healing yourself (unless you just go super tanky). That's just horrible game mechanics, in my opinion. > > > > The thread is not "ancient", old, maybe, but the issue persists unchanged and I saw little reason to make a new thread for it. > > I wanted to post a compilation of a few more arcdps reports some time ago, but I must have deleted them at some point before I got around to it. Luckily I haven't met many of these extremely retaliation focussed zergs in the mean time, or often didn't bother documenting it, not to mention usually just avoiding fighting them. Or I'd just stop playing instead of getting frustrated by this again and again. > > > > It's one thing to die because you played badly, or because the enemy just played better, but unavoidably dying to merely just attacking an enemy without them having to react... let's just say there are better ways to spend time than trying to force your head through a wall. > > retaliation has an easy counter: run more vitality or heal. > > removing it would be a shame, everyone would just start running full glass backline classes. the only thing stopping people now is the skill required to balance your damage output with the incoming retal damage while positioning yourself. There are enough reason not to run glass builds besides retaliation. A boon that punishes classes so unequally - as for example, a rev will dish out large single hits with their attacks, while taking less damage due to higher base defense thanks to wearing heavy armor and having higher base health, will not experience anywhere close the punishment an Ele would with all the many AEs they have to put down to actually bomb to the fullest extend. Heavy hitters with few attacks don't need to worry about it at all, while any build based on "death by a thousand cuts" is at a severe disadvantage. I don't feel like the devs ever kept retaliation in mind when designing attacks, nor do I think they thought about this imbalance when implementing retaliation as it is. As it stands, the boon is a badly designed and unnecessary game mechanic, a lazy way of defending yourself without having to actually do anything. Not something you would expect to see in any kind of skill based player vs player orientated game or game mode. > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > There are alot of joke threads in this Forum lately but this one takes the cake. > > The only class that has even a chance to die from reta is weaver. > > But what AoEs on it even hits enough to make reta dangerous? > > Staff Fire 2? If the enemy moves like he supposed to , he wont stand in it long enough for it to matter. > Yes even against 50+. > > Meteorshowers hits are slow enough to outheal the reta dmg. > If your Firebrand/scrapper, you should have in your group, is pressing a button or two per minute. > > > Ohh and if you play longbow ranger and you die because of longbow 5... > > Get the kitten out of WvW and come back with a propper class. > But the movement is exactly my point. Why should the enemy be rewarded for playing badly and staying in the AE, for eating the damage? The problem is, that bad play is actually rewarded by retaliation. Often enough enemies would stay in the fields and with retaliation on them, even if you run full marauder, even if you try to outheal, you will go down or at the very least disengage from the fight to wait for your health to regenerate. And all that without the enemy having to even target you. All that no matter what you do or where you go after dropping the bomb. If you think a meteor is not fast enough to do that, you have never placed a good bomb on a choke, which makes me wonder if you have any idea about the class and how it plays in WvW. And I think if a single boon is enough to ruin the gameplay for one class, while it "doesn't harm others much", that boon needs to be reworked, because it is broken. Sure, killing people without having to move a finger sounds fun, but it requires no skill and therefore gets dull very quickly... --- I can only argue this point from the view of an Ele or a Rev, as I haven't played other classes enough in WvW to judge how much it affects them. The little time I spend testing how well a burn-DH does in WvW did show something similar, but I prefer to stick to the classes I know about. So please excuse my focus on the elementalist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 Retal is fine, games doesn't need further dumbing down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > Retal is fine, games doesn't need further dumbing down. Retaliation should work like thorns in Diablo :p and should only exist in one spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > Retal is fine, games doesn't need further dumbing down. > > > Retaliation should work like thorns in Diablo :p and should only exist in one spec. > Lol players would just spam that soec especially in wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > Retal is fine, games doesn't need further dumbing down. > > > > > > Retaliation should work like thorns in Diablo :p and should only exist in one spec. > > > > Lol players would just spam that soec especially in wvw. Good point ;p but rules would balance out whom would take retal damage, or maybe imagine it like the thorns explosion from guardian onshield activation, mace shield shout guards could loose mobility while building retaliation that would stack on shield damage, shield 4 for cone effect and shield 5 for dome plus thorn damage but smaller damage than shield 4. My ideia is making retal a self mechanic than maintain keep it like a spam boon gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > @"Aeolus.3615" said: > > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said: > > > > Retal is fine, games doesn't need further dumbing down. > > > > > > > > > Retaliation should work like thorns in Diablo :p and should only exist in one spec. > > > > > > > Lol players would just spam that soec especially in wvw. > > Good point ;p but rules would balance out whom would take retal damage, or maybe imagine it like the thorns explosion from guardian onshield activation, mace shield shout guards could loose mobility while building retaliation that would stack on shield damage, shield 4 for cone effect and shield 5 for dome plus thorn damage but smaller damage than shield 4. > > My ideia is making retal a self mechanic than maintain keep it like a spam boon gameplay. Honestly from a theme standpoint guards,warriors and necro's would be the classes that feel like retaliation fits, maybe core engi as well. Rest really dont fit the effect nor need it but it shouldn't be completely removed lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwaihir.1745 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Syrus.2174" said: > > @"Ashen.2907" said: > > Hmm, I expect that attacking a zerg *should* get you killed. > > Of course it should be dangerous. But not just by attacking, if the defender doesn't even have to do anything actively for the attacker to go down, there is something wrong in my opinion. And that is exactly the case with retaliation for some classes. Lets be clear. No one is going down just for attacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RisenHowl.2419 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 > @"Syrus.2174" said: > > @"RisenHowl.2419" said: > > > @"Syrus.2174" said: > > > When putting down a "perfect AE bomb", I go downed without getting hit a single time, no matter if I dodge or hide, no matter if I'm near or far from the enemy. My assumption was, that to fight, you need to act, both to defend yourself, as well as to kill an enemy. Slapping on a boon which just causes the enemy to suicide themselves without any way of countering that is nothing but bad game design, in my opinion. I cannot stop the AE once it is down, an attack can be halted if the enemy throws up a reflect, I can go out of line of sight to not get hit back or switch the way I attack to ground based skills. Retaliation, on the other hand, can only be avoided by removing the boon from the enemy (or hoping it drops off), which is not something most builds can (reliably) do. > > > > > > Not to mention, there is absolutely no way to make sure that there aren't enemies with the boon in an enemy zerg. There is no significant visual effect (especially when you have to play with lowered graphics/player count) that alarms you of it, unlike with most reflects and other things that punish for attacking. By the time you notice, it may just be too late, espeically when you get 200+ dmg per tick - that can mean 1k health lost with every meteor coming down in a Meteor Shower, no matter what damage you actually do to the enemy, and not to mention Lava Font or other AEs ticking at the same time. Trust me, with the limited health pool of an Ele, even with full Marauder, this will melt you faster than you can heal back up. > > > > > > You talk about having support around ... personally I enjoy sneaky bombs, and usually that means little support around. Why should the enemy zerg not be punished for not paying attention, why punish someone for using tactics to attack someone from outside a zerg? Is there not enough punishment already, once the enemy zerg does pay attention? > > > > > > But I'm probably repeating myself. > > > > > > > > > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > > > Put a 2k range limit on the effects of retaliation, change retaliation so that it can be blocked or evaded, allow failure to line of sight to block retaliation damage and work diminishing returns onto it so the professions that deliver the same amount of damage in _more_ hits aren't as screwed over by it. That would nerf it in larger fights but (theoretically) maintain its contribution to smaller fights. > > > > > > > > I can't say I'm too fond of effects that don't actually require you to interact with the target to hurt them in some way, but most of them are fairly weak. > > > > > > > > ~ Kovu > > > > > > > > edit- Oh wow, ancient thread is ancient. > > > > > > A change to it would be nice, any change that nerfs it. If it was a boon that only stuck to the caster it'd be a bit better. Overall though, I just don't see how it improves gameplay in any way, considering pretty much allows counter-attacking without doing anything - theoretically you could kill people by just popping retal, standing in their AE and healing yourself (unless you just go super tanky). That's just horrible game mechanics, in my opinion. > > > > > > The thread is not "ancient", old, maybe, but the issue persists unchanged and I saw little reason to make a new thread for it. > > > I wanted to post a compilation of a few more arcdps reports some time ago, but I must have deleted them at some point before I got around to it. Luckily I haven't met many of these extremely retaliation focussed zergs in the mean time, or often didn't bother documenting it, not to mention usually just avoiding fighting them. Or I'd just stop playing instead of getting frustrated by this again and again. > > > > > > It's one thing to die because you played badly, or because the enemy just played better, but unavoidably dying to merely just attacking an enemy without them having to react... let's just say there are better ways to spend time than trying to force your head through a wall. > > > > retaliation has an easy counter: run more vitality or heal. > > > > removing it would be a shame, everyone would just start running full glass backline classes. the only thing stopping people now is the skill required to balance your damage output with the incoming retal damage while positioning yourself. > > There are enough reason not to run glass builds besides retaliation. A boon that punishes classes so unequally - as for example, a rev will dish out large single hits with their attacks, while taking less damage due to higher base defense thanks to wearing heavy armor and having higher base health, will not experience anywhere close the punishment an Ele would with all the many AEs they have to put down to actually bomb to the fullest extend. Heavy hitters with few attacks don't need to worry about it at all, while any build based on "death by a thousand cuts" is at a severe disadvantage. I don't feel like the devs ever kept retaliation in mind when designing attacks, nor do I think they thought about this imbalance when implementing retaliation as it is. > > As it stands, the boon is a badly designed and unnecessary game mechanic, a lazy way of defending yourself without having to actually do anything. Not something you would expect to see in any kind of skill based player vs player orientated game or game mode. > > > @"DanAlcedo.3281" said: > > There are alot of joke threads in this Forum lately but this one takes the cake. > > > > The only class that has even a chance to die from reta is weaver. > > > > But what AoEs on it even hits enough to make reta dangerous? > > > > Staff Fire 2? If the enemy moves like he supposed to , he wont stand in it long enough for it to matter. > > Yes even against 50+. > > > > Meteorshowers hits are slow enough to outheal the reta dmg. > > If your Firebrand/scrapper, you should have in your group, is pressing a button or two per minute. > > > > > > Ohh and if you play longbow ranger and you die because of longbow 5... > > > > Get the kitten out of WvW and come back with a propper class. > > > > But the movement is exactly my point. Why should the enemy be rewarded for playing badly and staying in the AE, for eating the damage? The problem is, that bad play is actually rewarded by retaliation. Often enough enemies would stay in the fields and with retaliation on them, even if you run full marauder, even if you try to outheal, you will go down or at the very least disengage from the fight to wait for your health to regenerate. And all that without the enemy having to even target you. All that no matter what you do or where you go after dropping the bomb. > > If you think a meteor is not fast enough to do that, you have never placed a good bomb on a choke, which makes me wonder if you have any idea about the class and how it plays in WvW. And I think if a single boon is enough to ruin the gameplay for one class, while it "doesn't harm others much", that boon needs to be reworked, because it is broken. > > Sure, killing people without having to move a finger sounds fun, but it requires no skill and therefore gets dull very quickly... > > --- > > I can only argue this point from the view of an Ele or a Rev, as I haven't played other classes enough in WvW to judge how much it affects them. > The little time I spend testing how well a burn-DH does in WvW did show something similar, but I prefer to stick to the classes I know about. > > So please excuse my focus on the elementalist. I get it just fine, seems like you're having a hard time man. What's the counter to spamming aegis and blind against slow hitting classes? Why do some classes deal more damage/proc more effects with faster attacks, what's the counter to that? Why do guardians have the lowest hp? Could it be that they also possess active defenses that work against different offensive strategies? You know, as counters that can be used skillfully? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobbah.3102 Posted February 21, 2020 Share Posted February 21, 2020 I love my retal , leave it be so much fun to be had , I do not have a problem at all with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mokk.2397 Posted February 22, 2020 Share Posted February 22, 2020 I've said this before .Retaliation must be removed completely. Retaliation is a seriously broken mechanic and completely unnecessary.There are plenty of penalties for attacking already .Blocks , evades , interrupts , absorption , stealth ,invulnerability and obstructions are enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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