Potential Future Balance Changes - WvW

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"miguelsil.6324" said:

> > @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> > Hi again,

> >

> > First off, really enjoying reading through all the feedback. While we don’t have time to respond to each individual post, we wanted to respond to a few of the points that have been brought up multiple times.

> >

> > * Nerfing only Scourge will result in boons and cleanses being too strong

> >

> > This is a real concern and definitely something we thought about when deciding on which changes to make for this update. What it really comes down to is the question of how long we want to chase our own tails right now. If we nerf Scourge, then maybe we need to nerf boons and cleanses, then maybe we need to nerf conditions and corrupts, and on and on we go. Now this is one of the goals of the future patch, but that is going to take longer than the time we have for this balance cycle.

> >

> > The alternative here is to just make no changes until the future update is ready, but we don’t think this is the right thing to do. We know Scourge is a problem, so we’re going to make an adjustment in the short-term. If it does end up that Scourge was keeping things in check and those things start to overperform, we do have opportunity to make slight adjustments out of the normal balance cadence, but ideally we want to spend as much time as possible working on the patch where we are trying to address everything at once.

> >

> > * Why not do the proposed PvP splits in WvW as well, for the sake of roamers?

> >

> > The PvP changes are targeted specifically at builds that are overperforming in PvP. Looking specifically at roaming, we don’t see anything as too egregious. Certainly everything is extremely powerful, but that is the longer-term thing we’re trying to address. For now we’re trying to balance things around the existing power level while we look ahead to addressing the issue that is the existing power level. If we brought the PvP changes to WvW right now, we would probably need to do additional changes to a bunch of roaming builds. Similar to the Scourge changes this is something that we thought about, but we want to put more time into the future update instead. These changes make sense for both competitive modes in the long-term, but now may not be the right time to make them in WvW. We’ll talk about this a bit more internally, but the main concern right now would be pushing these things out of viability instead of bringing them back in line.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Dear Cal, regarding roaming you need to have a look at the classes / builds that can safely one shot and then run away successfully with stealth / teleports /constant evades due to class mechanic / invulns while dealling damage (sounds like 2 specific classses i know) that being said a full zerker warrior having more survival than a full bunker class need to be addressed also, either make it so that the healling escalates from stats ( healling power ) or nerf the stances ( TWO invuln stances... ) to be like 50% damaged reduction instead, warrior should be able to do that much damage in full zerk but never have that crazy survival tools at all.

>

> thief/mesmer/boonsbeast/warrior and holo are better at one shots and dealling with outnumbered fights to run away and these builds need to be addressed.

>

> Even core guardian can one shot people but not have the survival or GTFO tools if it fails its a free bag.

>

> before someone says im defending my main class check the video below.

>

>

 

To be honest i consider core guardian one of the best if not the best balanced class in the entire game. Depending on how you build it is usually pretty weighted on one side and light on the side you dont opt into. Its also got a very effective kit.

 

Only when something like firebrand lands on it does it become something that over performs.

If all core classes were this strong and balanced then elites wouldn't need to be so power creeped and they could do what anet originally said they were going to do which is just provide a different way to play.

[God.2708]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > @"God.2708" said:

> > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > > > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > > > > It is saddening to see people being so ignorant about wvw blobscourge. That only shows that they dont play that class, they play it horrible wrong, or they dont know how to counter it. I mean, there is a comment here about people switching to gm trait "demonic lore" after the incoming nerfs. A trait that gives burn on torment every 3s on a single target. Amazing trait with powerstats. Synergizes well. Yeah.

> > > > >

> > > > > People cry about scourge condi dmg, which is pretty much nonexistent cause blobscourges run powerstats. Cleanses are out of this world, mass cleanses. Boonconversion is where most condies come from, but people choose to ignore this, as well. There is a reason the meta has shifted from full trailblazer to power. If you still run full trailblazer in blobs, well...

> > > > >

> > > > > Scourge needs support to survive. Otherwise, it is pure trash. Dies to a single rapidfire, a CoR plus 2 auto attacks. Barrier? It is used to sustain firebrands on pushes, so they can outsustain the enemy for scourges to be able to corrupt en masse, and for dps classes to deliver their spike. "but powerscourge has huge dmg!". No, it doesnt. A shroudspike is what, 1-2 times hit for 1.5-2.5k? (if you stay in that big Red pulsing AoE for more, farming flax may be ideal for you instead of wvw). "but so many scourges do much more dmg!" Welcome to the game, where stacking classes - any classes--with glass cannon stats can do mass damage. Support Firebrand can sustain a family of 8 alone. Spellbreaker is stronger than a german panzer and can solo push into enemy blobs. Scrapper has decent solo sustain. Revs as well. No other class needs support as much as scourge does, to be able to do what it is supposed to do. People call scourge a sitting duck for a reason.

> > > > >

> > > > > And this comes down to the actual role of the scourge. Boonrips and booncorrupts. The more targets the merrier, the more boons removed the better. The number of targets nerf was justified, 10 targets is a tad too much. But nerfing the boonremoval even more, that shows (in my opinion, anyway) that people are ignorant. Stand your ground was buffed and affects 10 targets. Boon output is absurd. Firebrands, scrappers, healeles, revs dish out more boons than ever. Scourge has seen nerfs with unending corruption being changed to harbringer shroud (that noone uses, ever), devouring darkness was already nerfed (will get nerfed harder), a whole trait line (curses) that goes well with condi builds was taken only cause of corrupts. Maybe builds will change to spite soulreap again, who knows. Condi isnt coming back anyway, hasnt been even remotely reliable for a long time.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyway, in conclusion, in my opinion they should just have nerfed big shade target number. Boon spam should be looked into first. The elephant (it is more like a prehistoric mammoth, actually) in the room is firebrand. Thanks for your time, reading my rant.

> > > >

> > > > I disagree. Anyone who thinks support is the issue in WvW doesn't understand how large scale fights work.

> > > > Edit: Or what the community wants from large scale fights.

> > >

> > > I am well aware that dps classes dictate the meta to a large degree. That doesnt mean that some aspects of the support classes arent broken, however.

> >

> > Support, as a whole, is in a much healthier state than DPS. If we talk about sustain without bringing up stability it is in the best condition its been in since the advent of HoT and the 'triad' (Tank, DPS, Healer) attempted to get introduced to the game. Firebrand Tempest Scrapper, and to a lesser extent Spellbreaker all have unique additions in the role. Druid and Revenant are remarkably close to seeing use, really just needing small mechanical adjustments.

> >

> > As a whole, I would disagree with anything about supports being 'broken' at the current juncture beyond stability being very mandatory and still very one class locked. Anti-toxin locked conditions out of the meta but that has been removed (and then bug fixed) and wasn't necessarily a single class issue (though scrapper obviously utilized better than most other classes).

> >

> > Scourges aren't enabled by supports. Supports are enabled by scourges. A common theme in PvE raids is that melee builds deal much more damage than ranged builds. If you wanted to overcome the enemies boons and supports the obvious go to then, would be maximum damage and pressure. AKA Melee. Why does no one do this? Because scourges make it impossible by being very strong at range and absolutely devastating at melee. A shade spike isn't 1-2 hits for 1.5k-2.5k. A proper power scourge lands f1 with f2-f5 and hits for close to 10k instantly on 10 targets (soon to be 5). Its clear why this would be a problem for melee classes when combined with their ability to boon strip when the most important thing that allows melee to work at all is stability.

> >

> > Now I see it echoed frequently that if supports were way weaker then scourges wouldn't work. This is technically true but it disregards the end point. We want a WvW where people benefit from grouping up and working together. The end state of supports getting nerfed is lots of solo roamers (typically soulbeasts or dead eyes) endlessly picking apart a zerg, till commanders get sick of it and cease to tag up, and WvW dies.

> >

> > Boons self balance. I don't mind if everyone runs around with 12 boons up all the time. You will still kill people by dropping 10 players worth of damage in the same spot. The game mode will not survive corruptions and damage increasing (or support decreasing). Commanders will get sick of single players having a drastic and devastating effect on their unit and they'll just pack up and quit.

>

> Nah. This is half true. If boons were a non issue, chrono wouldnt have been nerfed to oblivion. It would still be played. It isnt, not anymore.

> Scourge and spellbreaker were created with this exact role, to... Remove boons. Was it Anet's intention to counter permaprot+stab+regen+might+fury+every boon by increasing damage across the board along with boonremoval? Maybe. Did scourge overperform in boonremoval? Probably yes, thats why unending corruption isnt a thing anymore, thats why shroud skills had their cds doubled, thats why devouring darkness is getting nerfed more (i wouldnt be suprised if they nerf "path to corruption", as well). Rev and weaver still do absurd amounts of damage when compared to scourges from a distance. If a shade spike is (like you claim) 10k/target from a single scourge , weaver and rev is much, much more. "But this is what i am saying! Too much damage makes boons mandatory!" Well, then, remove boonremoval altogether.

>

 

Chrono, perhaps ironically, got nerfed because of PvE and it doing to much there. Yes it was bad for WvW, but that was not the source of its nerfs. And again, it is not the sheer damage of scourge. It is the fact it deals that damage on top of being able to spam corruption, which handicaps stability and RNGs protection making melee an impossibility. Revenant and Elementalist damage drops off a cliff once melee happens unless the player is of exceptional skill level. Their absurd damage is also limited to 5/3 targets or locked behind channels/terrain being flat.

 

Getting rid of boon removal all together is an interesting thought exercise, but does lean a bit to hard the other direction if only because warclaw exists and it would prevent large scale fights from properly coming to a completion.

[SoV.5139]

Scourges are the pain point?

 

Nerfing boon corrupt only, means zergs/blobs will now have MORE scourges to compensate for the nerf.

 

 

[Kundalini.5170]

* Devouring Darkness (from Lingering Curse): Reduced the number of boons corrupted from 2 to 1 in WvW only

If you want to shift the zerging meta to where there is more variety you need to also tone down the amount of aoe boon application and aoe healing.

I get the impression that they only look at mass fights and not at 1vs or 1vs5

* Return the F1 so that the damage is again in the shadow as in the player.

Torch 5 if there is no field of vision is fine but check other characters and their abilities to be the same since there are many who can do damage without field of vision. Therefore come back as this skill was until it is even for everyone.

[miguelsil.6324]

 

>

> To be honest i consider core guardian one of the best if not the best balanced class in the entire game. Depending on how you build it is usually pretty weighted on one side and light on the side you dont opt into. Its also got a very effective kit.

>

> Only when something like firebrand lands on it does it become something that over performs.

> If all core classes were this strong and balanced then elites wouldn't need to be so power creeped and they could do what anet originally said they were going to do which is just provide a different way to play.

 

I agree but someone looking at this build might say its overtuned even tho when it fails its easy to handle and kill it without the element of surprise.

 

All core classes are ok for most of it with the exception of warrior invuln stances that i do not agree one bit such OP thing should exist

[Clownmug.8357]

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> ...

> The PvP changes are targeted specifically at builds that are overperforming in PvP. Looking specifically at roaming, we don’t see anything as too egregious. Certainly everything is extremely powerful, but that is the longer-term thing we’re trying to address. For now we’re trying to balance things around the existing power level while we look ahead to addressing the issue that is the existing power level. If we brought the PvP changes to WvW right now, we would probably need to do additional changes to a bunch of roaming builds. Similar to the Scourge changes this is something that we thought about, but we want to put more time into the future update instead. These changes make sense for both competitive modes in the long-term, but now may not be the right time to make them in WvW. We’ll talk about this a bit more internally, but the main concern right now would be pushing these things out of viability instead of bringing them back in line.

>

 

Is the notion that "everything is extremely powerful" possibly based on a few gimmicky one shot builds? In any case, the proven low risk + high reward builds in PvP are still better than most others when transferred to WvW, plus more choices for gear makes them even more effective. Imagine if in PvP you had to deal with Condi Mirage that has access to a Trailblazer amulet, Runes of Tormenting, and a +40% endurance regen buff...

[DKRathalos.9625]

@"Cal Cohen.2358"

Is this Balance Change only include class or we will talk about Population balance change too?

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Clownmug.8357" said:

> Imagine if in PvP you had to deal with Condi Mirage that has access to a Trailblazer amulet, Runes of Tormenting, and a +40% endurance regen buff...

Imagine if in PvP you had to deal with **any other burst class on WvW gear**.

 

Among them all the condi mirage in particular would be the lamest, because it cant really use it's mobility when being forced on a tiny capping circle in order to win.

 

[Harrada.8041]

Heres to hoping you guys end up removing Lesser Endure Pain. Passive elixer s was removed from engi's, passive immortality for warriors is just as bad, if not worse, on top of all their other invulns. Its such an effortless get-out-of-jail free card, that you can neither bait from the player, nor avoid. You have to fight them down to 50% hp only for them to have 4 whole seconds to either retreat, kill you, or reset. You are forced to have to outplay a warrior not once, but twice because of this one passive.

[Jski.6180]

Any though on pulling back on what boons you get from conversion and what condis you get from corruptions. The ideal is to make this boon/condi counter play only use basic condis/boons for there out come effect leaving strong boons / condis for skills made with the boons/condis as the main out come of there effect. Striping the boon or cleaing the condi should be the main effect of corruption / conversion but they have the added effect of giving a boon/condi but it should be just that not that these corruption / conversion are giving out the only boons / condis you need.

[Rasp Sabreblade.5421]

1. passive proc'ing traits need to be removed and need to be changed to - you make this type of action and this type of result happens. example - you hit someone with boons, you remove 1 boons or covert 1 boon or steal 1 boon

2. any skill that has a passive, needs to be made into an ammo type skill. This included the F1-F3 of guardian.

3. Invulnerability needs to have a break bar

4. Warrior - Bulls Charge needs to have a target to work. Same should be added to the the greatsword; Whirlwind attack and Rush.

5. Ranger - Rapid Fire needs to be tuned down to 5-7 shots from 10.

6. Make ALL mobile aoe damage skills static. Where you place/active it is where is stays.

7. Herald utility skills need to use the ammo system, but use energy.

8. Renegade utility skills need to all have energy upkeep with a flip over skill so the avatars are maintained like an AoE instead of instantly being deleted in WvW. Then if they just run out of energy nothing happens, but with the flip over skill you can explode them to cause some AoE effect. ie...Ice Razor Ire can explode to freeze, or have a trait that changes the explosion from a damage/condi to a heal/boon.

9. remove all traits giving a passive speed boost. ie... warriors sprint tratit

10. remove the adept trait as a free trait and make 4 trait lines to choose from. A. damage, B. Condi/boon block-remove, C. heal/boons, D. Trait line specific

11. make grand master traits modify game play - NO, OH KITTEN SAVE MY REAR PASSIVE PROC STUFF!!!

12. traits should only do 1 thing. currently traits do this and that, plus something else. ie... warrioris sprint does to many things. It should either break immob or increased dmg when you have swiftness, but NOT give you swiftness. Swiftness should have to come from somewhere else.

13. remove some stealth from skills and/or traits. Or adjust the chaining ability and/or modify the in-out of combat activation.

 

 

_Extra suggestion not related to skills:_

Use some LWS maps as base maps for new WvW maps and release these 1-2 a year 2 weeks before the next LWS/Epilogue. You have the assets, why not use these for other game modes. example. Bitterfrost, Istan, Kourna, Droconis Mons (triple helix)could be some very interesting WvW maps, with some modifications. The Astralarium from the Damain of Istan could be a very interesting pvp map with a few modifications.

 

[hipnofagus.5619]

nerf is not a punishment, dont kill the warrior.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Rasp Sabreblade.5421" said:

> 1. passive proc'ing traits need to be removed and need to be changed to - you make this type of action and this type of result happens. example - you hit someone with boons, you remove 1 boons or covert 1 boon or steal 1 boon

> 2. any skill that has a passive, needs to be made into an ammo type skill. This included the F1-F3 of guardian.

> 3. Invulnerability needs to have a break bar

> 4. Warrior - Bulls Charge needs to have a target to work. Same should be added to the the greatsword; Whirlwind attack and Rush.

> 5. Ranger - Rapid Fire needs to be tuned down to 5-7 shots from 10.

> 6. Make ALL mobile aoe damage skills static. Where you place/active it is where is stays.

> 7. Herald utility skills need to use the ammo system, but use energy.

> 8. Renegade utility skills need to all have energy upkeep with a flip over skill so the avatars are maintained like an AoE instead of instantly being deleted in WvW. Then if they just run out of energy nothing happens, but with the flip over skill you can explode them to cause some AoE effect. ie...Ice Razor Ire can explode to freeze, or have a trait that changes the explosion from a damage/condi to a heal/boon.

> 9. remove all traits giving a passive speed boost. ie... warriors sprint tratit

> 10. remove the adept trait as a free trait and make 4 trait lines to choose from. A. damage, B. Condi/boon block-remove, C. heal/boons, D. Trait line specific

> 11. make grand master traits modify game play - NO, OH KITTEN SAVE MY REAR PASSIVE PROC STUFF!!!

> 12. traits should only do 1 thing. currently traits do this and that, plus something else. ie... warrioris sprint does to many things. It should either break immob or increased dmg when you have swiftness, but NOT give you swiftness. Swiftness should have to come from somewhere else.

> 13. remove some stealth from skills and/or traits. Or adjust the chaining ability and/or modify the in-out of combat activation.

>

>

> _Extra suggestion not related to skills:_

> Use some LWS maps as base maps for new WvW maps and release these 1-2 a year 2 weeks before the next LWS/Epilogue. You have the assets, why not use these for other game modes. example. Bitterfrost, Istan, Kourna, Droconis Mons (triple helix)could be some very interesting WvW maps, with some modifications. The Astralarium from the Damain of Istan could be a very interesting pvp map with a few modifications.

>

 

Someone has a bias against warrior lmao.

[Straegen.2938]

Small scale:

* Boon Beast and Condi Mirage need some nerfs.

* Holosmith invis duration is far too long.

* Deadeye stealth uptime is too much particularly with so little stealth counter play.

* Shiro, Surge of the Mists and Unrelenting Assault is too much damage and evasion with virtually no cast time so interrupts are pointless.

* A slight nerf to Deadly Ambition.

* Removal of Evasion food.

 

Large scale needs more class/build variation.

* Scourge. Class is too meta defining.

* Firebrand. Class is too meta defining.

 

[ThomasC.1056]

> @"Cal Cohen.2358" said:

> Hi again,

 

Hello.

 

Thanks for giving your insight.

 

> First off, really enjoying reading through all the feedback. While we don’t have time to respond to each individual post, we wanted to respond to a few of the points that have been brought up multiple times.

>

> * Nerfing only Scourge will result in boons and cleanses being too strong

>

> This is a real concern and definitely something we thought about when deciding on which changes to make for this update. What it really comes down to is the question of how long we want to chase our own tails right now. If we nerf Scourge, then maybe we need to nerf boons and cleanses, then maybe we need to nerf conditions and corrupts, and on and on we go. Now this is one of the goals of the future patch, but that is going to take longer than the time we have for this balance cycle.

> The alternative here is to just make no changes until the future update is ready, but we don’t think this is the right thing to do.

 

How long you want to chase your own tail is indeed a big issue, but allow me to consider you're not making the right decision. The thing is you're currently facing some kind of flood. You're positive you need to build a dam, but your solution is to dig a hole in the ground to raise the dam. It won't prevent the flood. Water will just flow in the hole, so you'll have to dig another hole to raise another dam, and the water will still flow in its own stream. Another way to put it is you're trying to shape a flabby blob into a specific shape by pushing it with one finger on one specific point. The odds it'll take the shape you're intending are extremely low.

 

This is the reason why I humbly think it'd be wiser to raise the dam all at once, or use all your fingers with both hands to shape your item. Which indeed means working on boons, strips, steals, corrupts, conditions and cleanses _all at once_ to bring _everything_ in line.

 

> We know Scourge is a problem, so we’re going to make an adjustment in the short-term.

 

I'm a bit dubious about it, because other _problems_ have been raised (boons, firebrands...) which you acknowledge, but still aren't adressed. So why scourge first and foremost, and only it, eventhough you're indeed afraid that it could have severe side-effects in the balance ? Once again, it'd be wiser to delay, and deal with all the issues you've identified.

 

>If it does end up that Scourge was keeping things in check and those things start to overperform, we do have opportunity to make slight adjustments out of the normal balance cadence, but ideally we want to spend as much time as possible working on the patch where we are trying to address everything at once.

 

My fear with it (I'm a bit of the pessimistic one) is that the incoming scourge "fix" will only be a bandaid, that'll raise other issues that you'll _slightly adjust_ with a stay that'll make another thing cluncky, so it'll need a _slight adjustement_ again, with a strand of twine and two knots and the main effect will be a big waste of time while you're working on the patch which will address everything at once.

 

Now, I've got no idea how advanced the decisions are concerning the Big Bang Patch or the _slight adjustement_ patchs, how much time it'd take, how much work it is, how deep you want to tweak or revamp professions and specializations, so maybe it'd _look_ better to do something now, and have a bigger thing come later. So I'll just say I'm very mixed feelings about this.

 

> * Why not do the proposed PvP splits in WvW as well, for the sake of roamers?

>

> (...) Certainly everything is extremely powerful, but that is the longer-term thing we’re trying to address. (...)

 

I'm glad you're stating that, wish you good luck to address this, and I'm really looking forward to what'll come out of this.

 

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Straegen.2938" said:

> Small scale:

> * Boon Beast and Condi Mirage need some nerfs.

> * Holosmith invis duration is far too long.

> * Deadeye stealth uptime is too much particularly with so little stealth counter play.

> * Shiro, Surge of the Mists and Unrelenting Assault is too much damage and evasion with virtually no cast time so interrupts are pointless.

> * A slight nerf to Deadly Ambition.

> * Removal of Evasion food.

>

> Large scale needs more class/build variation.

> * Scourge. Class is too meta defining.

> * Firebrand. Class is too meta defining.

>

 

I actually like where warrior is at, along with a few others, but you conveniently missed warrior for your small scale list. I mean, if you feel some should get nerfs, then you should expect all to get nerfs too.

[Voltekka.2375]

Warriors shouldnt be able to use more than one stance simoultanously.

[Straegen.2938]

> I actually like where warrior is at, along with a few others, but you conveniently missed warrior for your small scale list. I mean, if you feel some should get nerfs, then you should expect all to get nerfs too.

 

Warriors in small scale are mostly fine. Rampage is a minor issue but in WvW I don't find it terribly problematic.

 

Why would they nerf classes/builds that are under performing just because some builds are over performing and need some nerfs? No reason to start nerfing elementalists, necros, etc in small scale just because Boon Beast has far too much sustain for a DPS build or Condi Mirage is able to drop a ridiculous amount of varied condi while chaining invulns, stealth, teleports, evasion.

 

[SloRules.3560]

Man, i just hope cmc doesn't take this thread too seriously. Some people really don't have any idea about this game, at all.

 

If anything has to be removed first to tone down the whole thing, it has to be the gameplay deniers (corrupts, rips, cc), why? Because if you can't move, everyone is just going to leave the game... (or you know pirateship, that everyone claims to hate, but are somehow sticking up for)

 

Overload of boons (HoT) was much better than overload of corrupts/rips (PoF, early PoF tbh).

 

Also taking more necros to resolve this is going to make you vulnerable in sustain and that is not going to happen.

If anything, if sustain becomes obscenely too powerful, which it really won't (you still have spellbreaker that counters itself kinda) it can only develop into single target meta on the high end and for average EBG pugs, it will not make a difference, why? Because they take a year to change gameplay.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Straegen.2938" said:

> > I actually like where warrior is at, along with a few others, but you conveniently missed warrior for your small scale list. I mean, if you feel some should get nerfs, then you should expect all to get nerfs too.

>

> Warriors in small scale are mostly fine. Rampage is a minor issue but in WvW I don't find it terribly problematic.

>

> Why would they nerf classes/builds that are under performing just because some builds are over performing and need some nerfs? No reason to start nerfing elementalists, necros, etc in small scale just because Boon Beast has far too much sustain for a DPS build or Condi Mirage is able to drop a ridiculous amount of varied condi while chaining invulns, stealth, teleports, evasion.

>

 

The problem is that you’re not really being objective here. And warriors can’t be built to have a lot of sustain and damage? They can’t be built to be monsters in melee? Warriors aren’t lacking much except needing more access to better mid to long range weapons.

[Dawdler.8521]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> > @"Straegen.2938" said:

> > > I actually like where warrior is at, along with a few others, but you conveniently missed warrior for your small scale list. I mean, if you feel some should get nerfs, then you should expect all to get nerfs too.

> >

> > Warriors in small scale are mostly fine. Rampage is a minor issue but in WvW I don't find it terribly problematic.

> >

> > Why would they nerf classes/builds that are under performing just because some builds are over performing and need some nerfs? No reason to start nerfing elementalists, necros, etc in small scale just because Boon Beast has far too much sustain for a DPS build or Condi Mirage is able to drop a ridiculous amount of varied condi while chaining invulns, stealth, teleports, evasion.

> >

>

> The problem is that you’re not really being objective here. And warriors can’t be built to have a lot of sustain and damage? They can’t be built to be monsters in melee? Warriors aren’t lacking much except needing more access to better mid to long range weapons.

Everyone is objective. Of course its absolutely ridiculous to say things like *"Unrelenting Assault is too much damage and evasion with virtually no cast time so interrupts are pointless."* and in the same breath say *"WaRRiOr iS MosTly FiNe"* when they have far more damage, with far better sustain and are incredibly hard to cc due to passives. They can chainstun you for ~10s and kill you 3 times over in that time.

 

The only thing I agree with on that little list really is that there is too little counterplay to stealth - which I consider to be a mechanics issue and not a balance issue. Stealth in itself should reveal you for an extended period if you attack from it and it should not stack period.

[Mikali.9651]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Warriors shouldnt be able to use more than one stance simoultanously.

 

Back like in good old Guild Wars days? As the main warrior player, I agree! That was the best part of playing a warrior.

It would be so interesting to see stances on much lower cooldown and shorter duration:

- Frenzy, 5-sec duration, 10-sec cooldown, not giving might anymore, your attacks are unblockable for the first 3 seconds and you can't be blinded, take 33% more damage (instead of 50% or double like it was, just because I like this part of a risk Frenzy had)

- give us a new Sprint-like skill - 8-sec duration, 15-sec cooldown - remove impairing conditions and gain swiftness for the duration. Gain immunity against impairing conditions for 4 seconds. Similar to Featherfoot Grace but still a lot different and could be used as a vanilla warrior. You could even make it Elite stance skill - I would gladly use it instead of the Signet of Rage.

 

I mean, not needed to change skills in such a way, but I would actually like to see stances nerfed in duration and even power, but gaining much shorter cooldown so a warrior can again become the profession which needs to carefully stance dance.

 

Oh yeah, and remove Endure Pain - even I as the main warrior do not enjoy having it, I would rather gain something similar to Garen's Courage skill (LoL) - for X duration you receive 33% less damage (it could be a protection boon so it can be stripped), and on initial cast you gain X amount of barrier for X seconds. And if not going that way and still want to keep Endure Pain - just remove lesser Endure Pain - I do not like lazy passive effects.

[miguelsil.6324]

WARRIOR is not ok, 2 invuln stances on a class that on full zerker has insane survival and hard to burst or land hit due to low abilities that provide stability evades (gs3 cd is too low) and can perma stun a person ( bull charge, shield 4 and elite ) also having a heall tick that does not need healling power to do those ticks...

 

For warrior to have that survival they should be on different armour stats and hard CC needs an ICD of at least 1s after at the end of the said hard CC, ether by being stunbreak or by simply waiting for the effect to end .

 

Then it would be on pair with other classes when using zerk gear.

[Mikali.9651]

> @"miguelsil.6324" said:

> WARRIOR is not ok, 2 invuln stances on a class that on full zerker has insane survival and hard to burst or land hit due to low abilities that provide stability evades (gs3 cd is too low) and can perma stun a person ( bull charge, shield 4 and elite ) also having a heall tick that does not need healling power to do those ticks...

>

> For warrior to have that survival they should be on different armour stats and hard CC needs an ICD of at least 1s after at the end of the said hard CC, ether by being stunbreak or by simply waiting for the effect to end .

>

> Then it would be on pair with other classes when using zerk gear.

 

Wait, a Warrior actually managed to stun you with Shield Bash and Bull's Charge? What? In a chain? And does it regularly? I find that hard to believe.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Mikali.9651" said:

> > @"miguelsil.6324" said:

> > WARRIOR is not ok, 2 invuln stances on a class that on full zerker has insane survival and hard to burst or land hit due to low abilities that provide stability evades (gs3 cd is too low) and can perma stun a person ( bull charge, shield 4 and elite ) also having a heall tick that does not need healling power to do those ticks...

> >

> > For warrior to have that survival they should be on different armour stats and hard CC needs an ICD of at least 1s after at the end of the said hard CC, ether by being stunbreak or by simply waiting for the effect to end .

> >

> > Then it would be on pair with other classes when using zerk gear.

>

> Wait, a Warrior actually managed to stun you with Shield Bash and Bull's Charge? What? In a chain? And does it regularly? I find that hard to believe.

 

Yeah these are the players screaming about warriors sustain and dps lol poster above says warrior out dps herald or rev.. ok sure it does and when played well a rev/harold can stay in a fight very long. They complain about 2 invulnerability stances but guards/fb are ok? Mirages with invulnerability, blocks, teleports etc etc are fine. I could go on but the majority of the community these days seem like new players calling any class they have trouble with OP, its obvious in their posts. That be my guess how he's getting continually stunned by shield bash and rampage, gotta be new lol

On top the gw2 forum community are sheep no one was talking about warrior except the tactics trait line changes cuz it was all thief and holo but a post or two from a couple clueless players stating warriors OP than anytime some one dies to one oh oh get on the forums to join the warrior OP band waggon and now its gonna be every third post u see.

I don't mean to offend anyone but that seems like the pretty obvious trend these days.

Welcome to gw2 forums :)