FOX.3582 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"Hannelore.8153" said: > This is what we've come to, where the slightest bit of difficulty that is fully counterable is met with critisism every time. This thread should instead be named "I can't go into combat on my seven-year-old Berserker full glass MAX DPS build and survive everything". > > Boon strip, boon corrupt, condition damage, slower attacking weapons, passive healing, even just Vitality, ... The worst thing is that Arenanet actually listens to these kind of people and have ruined many parts of this game because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunjiKugashira.9754 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > Thank you... > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > I don't like it. > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > Thank you... > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > I don't like it. > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. Yes, it does. As an elementalist just the possibility of a mob applying retaliation to themselves prevents me from using most of my damage skills. Meteor shower? I'd be dead. Air overload? I'd be dead. Lava font? Has the potential to trigger retal 5 times. Lightning Orb? Eats about half of my hp. Wildfire? Same. Glyph of Storms? I'd be dead. All of these attacks are multi-hit attacks that linger for a while after casting. Once they have been cast, I have no control over them. Thus I can no longer cancel them if the enemy gets retaliation. The only counter-play to retaliation is therefore not to use these skills. Which leaves me with almost no damage skills besides my auto-attack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > Well, as a guard for example you are probably always going to end up using symbols, one way or another. Sure, some builds more or less than others, but it can really screw you if it's not properly telegraphed and happens at the wrong time (just Focus 4 + a Symbol is probably enough to just nuke you when Retal randomly comes up **after** you placed those AoE's/rolling damage ticks). The main issue is just the stark difference though. Open world is so easy you can solo group event champions in your sleep, beating 99.9% of the content barely looking at the screen, but then one random mob applies this one boon and you instantly blow yourself up. All I'm saying is, that's not a particularly fun or well designed experience, and not what I would consider a well paced "difficulty". I'd rather have the content be elevated in difficulty in general, than extremely situational cheap oneshot spikes in a sea of boredom, and don't find that worth defending or even applauding as good design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. It does actually. My damaging skills are multi shot skills, if i was playing on my Ele any AOE is instant death when enemies have Retal. Ele has little to no Boon Strip whatsoever, so i just dont use them if i know an enemy has retal, Dragonstand for instance on the final part is brutal, due to the AOE on staff fire i spend half the fight standing there until the menders are dead, SO FUN. /s Same thing on my DE, i spend alot of the time just spamming one now because using my multishot skills or the final shot would kill me. Again, not fun. Theres not enough boonstrip in the game, and theres not enough players running boonstrip builds IN PVE, to warrant putting Retal on enemies, en mass. > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > Making monsters closer to PvP is a positive thing IMO. The more PvE feel like PvP, the more you have to be tactical/smart in the fight. > Not having permanent application of Retaliation/Torment/Confusion is right, but it shouldn't be excluded from PvE. > I would have some monsters block, dodge, have Aegis, have real cooldown on their ability so Chilled/Weakness become useful counters. Most of us who play PVE alot do so because we dont like PVP and how it works, and the toxicity of it. id rather not have it be like PVP at all. So no, IMO its a terrible idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > Yes, it does. > As an elementalist just the possibility of a mob applying retaliation to themselves prevents me from using most of my damage skills. > Meteor shower? I'd be dead. > Air overload? I'd be dead. > Lava font? Has the potential to trigger retal 5 times. > Lightning Orb? Eats about half of my hp. > Wildfire? Same. > Glyph of Storms? I'd be dead. > > All of these attacks are multi-hit attacks that linger for a while after casting. Once they have been cast, I have no control over them. Thus I can no longer cancel them if the enemy gets retaliation. The only counter-play to retaliation is therefore not to use these skills. Which leaves me with almost no damage skills besides my auto-attack. Quite aware of how Ele skills work... There are other ele weapons, and other builds... Its too bad we dont have templates for that... > @"Dante.1763" said: > > It does actually. My damaging skills are multi shot skills, if i was playing on my Ele any AOE is instant death when enemies have Retal. Ele has little to no Boon Strip whatsoever, so i just dont use them if i know an enemy has retal, Dragonstand for instance on the final part is brutal, due to the AOE on staff fire i spend half the fight standing there until the menders are dead, SO FUN. /s I forgot, the only ele skills that actually damage opponents are multi hit........ > > Same thing on my DE, i spend alot of the time just spamming one now because using my multishot skills or the final shot would kill me. Again, not fun. Theres not enough boonstrip in the game, and theres not enough players running boonstrip builds IN PVE, to warrant putting Retal on enemies, en mass. > > Most of us who play PVE alot do so because we dont like PVP and how it works, and the toxicity of it. id rather not have it be like PVP at all. So no, IMO its a terrible idea. So joining another player in a MMO is out of the question? Teamwork?? Maybe? They should also get rid of Breakbars too because I don't want to have to change my skill bar before engaging a champ to CC them.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Strider Pj.2193 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"Noodle Ant.1605" said: > I meant PvE enemies btw :lol:. > > In Bjora Marches, there are certain champions who periodically gain some boons, including a lengthy retal which can hit as stupidly high as 800 per tick. > > This isn’t the first time this has happened; in Dragonfall, Shadow Monks can grant retal to a whole group, and then grant a ton of barrier on top of that, making you hurt yourself for literally no gain (~400 per tick). > So.. is it One class that has this ability? One? > I’ve been mostly noticing this when I play tempest, when I shoot out a lighting orb or leave an overload air, these enemies can promptly pop retal and then I end up ripping myself to shreds and there is no way to stop it. > > If it’s unstrippable and purposely a mechanic (e.g. gorse) then fine, leave it as is but PvE mobs, especially the ones in open world, should either have no or *extremely limited* access to this boon (1-2s with obvious tell, because fyi the visual fx doesn’t appear on them). > > Atm, it’s passive play from the ai, it punishes you for simply existing because the only counter play (unless playing very specific classes) is waiting out 10s, while you already get pinged for 3k by other things. So, you would be willing to give up all of your passives as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1763 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > It does actually. My damaging skills are multi shot skills, if i was playing on my Ele any AOE is instant death when enemies have Retal. Ele has little to no Boon Strip whatsoever, so i just dont use them if i know an enemy has retal, Dragonstand for instance on the final part is brutal, due to the AOE on staff fire i spend half the fight standing there until the menders are dead, SO FUN. /s > > I forgot, the only ele skills that actually damage opponents are multi hit........ > > > > > Same thing on my DE, i spend alot of the time just spamming one now because using my multishot skills or the final shot would kill me. Again, not fun. Theres not enough boonstrip in the game, and theres not enough players running boonstrip builds IN PVE, to warrant putting Retal on enemies, en mass. > > > > > Most of us who play PVE alot do so because we dont like PVP and how it works, and the toxicity of it. id rather not have it be like PVP at all. So no, IMO its a terrible idea. > > So joining another player in a MMO is out of the question? > > Teamwork?? > > Maybe? > > They should also get rid of Breakbars too because I don't want to have to change my skill bar before engaging a champ to CC them.. > > The Ele skills that cause damage that arent multi hit, are 111111111(On staff, very few other skills on staff that cause decent damage. Earth only works well if running Condi, and even then it still hits multiple enemies. Air is almost all support, Water is all healing.) and other weapons they have suffer from the same problem. Dagger hits multiple enemies too, Sword cleaves. Scepter is boring as hell and i dont even own one because its terrible. I wouldnt have any argument if Ele could swap weapons in combat it would get rid of the entire problem(At least on ELE) enemy pops retal? Switch to sword, but they cant. So if one enters combat with staff against an enemy that can pop retal whenever they want, prepare to sit there and hit 1111111111 so you dont kill yourself. But hey, you keep thinking its fun to play this way. Opinions are great, ours is different, Enemies with Retal should stay in instanced content. 90 % of the players dont play support builds in PVE, so theres nobody stripping boons. You should know this community OVERALL, is terrible at CC that was just a terrible example to use. The amount of times ive watched Boneskinner fail over the last two days due to CC is laughable. Shatterer while not failing has been months since ive seen a successful CC phase. This game has promoted play how you want, and being super casual for to long, they need to stick with it as thats the majority of players left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulvar.1239 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you... > > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > I don't like it. > > > > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you... > > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > I don't like it. > > > > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. > > Yes, it does. > As an elementalist just the possibility of a mob applying retaliation to themselves prevents me from using most of my damage skills. > Meteor shower? I'd be dead. > Air overload? I'd be dead. > Lava font? Has the potential to trigger retal 5 times. > Lightning Orb? Eats about half of my hp. > Wildfire? Same. > Glyph of Storms? I'd be dead. > > All of these attacks are multi-hit attacks that linger for a while after casting. Once they have been cast, I have no control over them. Thus I can no longer cancel them if the enemy gets retaliation. The only counter-play to retaliation is therefore not to use these skills. Which leaves me with almost no damage skills besides my auto-attack. Stop doing open world in zerk gear and you'll stop exploding whenever you take damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asum.4960 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"Kulvar.1239" said: > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you... > > > > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > > > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > I don't like it. > > > > > > > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > > > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > > > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > > > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. > > > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you... > > > > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > > > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > I don't like it. > > > > > > > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > > > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > > > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > > > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. > > > > Yes, it does. > > As an elementalist just the possibility of a mob applying retaliation to themselves prevents me from using most of my damage skills. > > Meteor shower? I'd be dead. > > Air overload? I'd be dead. > > Lava font? Has the potential to trigger retal 5 times. > > Lightning Orb? Eats about half of my hp. > > Wildfire? Same. > > Glyph of Storms? I'd be dead. > > > > All of these attacks are multi-hit attacks that linger for a while after casting. Once they have been cast, I have no control over them. Thus I can no longer cancel them if the enemy gets retaliation. The only counter-play to retaliation is therefore not to use these skills. Which leaves me with almost no damage skills besides my auto-attack. > > Stop doing open world in zerk gear and you'll stop exploding whenever you take damage. Ironically the build I like to use in open world is almost the same build I play PvP with (Plat+), with some minor adjustments for stable solo 25 Might Generation etc., and with Symbol Brand is a support/damage hybrid, for which I'm using a Marauder/Diviner Mix for open world. It frankly has way more sustain, defense and boonuptimes than you would ever need for 99% of all of open world, but blowing up all mobs instantly with full damage builds gets way too boring, so I like to play something more defensive. Thing is, Retal does much more damage in PvE than PvP and WvW. Not only is there a flat 33% damage increase in PvE, it also scales with level and Power, which can be higher on Mobs than players. So the same build that can easily outsustain cleaving 5 people with Retal in PvP (where you also more rarely get to stack as much damaging fields due to the importance of movement and positioning) still sheer instantly blows up to a single champion with Retal. If Retal hits you for 5000 damage per second because you got a few rolling damage skills active which you can't cancel, it doesn't matter if you are full zerker, soldier, or whatever. Even if I stop actively attacking the second the mob suddenly puts Retal on, go into Resolve and start burst healing, I still just blow up in <5 Seconds, unable to do anything about it. So while I want to see more challenge (and boons) in PvE, sudden Retal applications are imo not the way to go, unless it's tweaked down at least to levels similar than in PvP modes when affecting players, for the very same reason of it not being fun to be passively blown up if you dare to use anything but autoattacks, or it needs proper telegraphing and more opportunity to be countered, especially for professions without innate boon strip, like I mentioned as punishment for missed breaksbars for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunjiKugashira.9754 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > > Yes, it does. > > As an elementalist just the possibility of a mob applying retaliation to themselves prevents me from using most of my damage skills. > > Meteor shower? I'd be dead. > > Air overload? I'd be dead. > > Lava font? Has the potential to trigger retal 5 times. > > Lightning Orb? Eats about half of my hp. > > Wildfire? Same. > > Glyph of Storms? I'd be dead. > > > > All of these attacks are multi-hit attacks that linger for a while after casting. Once they have been cast, I have no control over them. Thus I can no longer cancel them if the enemy gets retaliation. The only counter-play to retaliation is therefore not to use these skills. Which leaves me with almost no damage skills besides my auto-attack. > > > Quite aware of how Ele skills work... There are other ele weapons, and other builds... Its too bad we dont have templates for that... Oh, I'm sorry, It seems I've forgot how to store additional weapon sets in my build templates. Can you please remind me how that works? My second gear slot is occupied by my healer-gear, so you'll have to do it with only one gear slot. /S > > > > @"Dante.1763" said: > > > > It does actually. My damaging skills are multi shot skills, if i was playing on my Ele any AOE is instant death when enemies have Retal. Ele has little to no Boon Strip whatsoever, so i just dont use them if i know an enemy has retal, Dragonstand for instance on the final part is brutal, due to the AOE on staff fire i spend half the fight standing there until the menders are dead, SO FUN. /s > > I forgot, the only ele skills that actually damage opponents are multi hit........ Please show me an elementalist rotation that has NO lingering effects and does more damage per second than staff-fire-autospam. > > > > > Same thing on my DE, i spend alot of the time just spamming one now because using my multishot skills or the final shot would kill me. Again, not fun. Theres not enough boonstrip in the game, and theres not enough players running boonstrip builds IN PVE, to warrant putting Retal on enemies, en mass. > > > > > Most of us who play PVE alot do so because we dont like PVP and how it works, and the toxicity of it. id rather not have it be like PVP at all. So no, IMO its a terrible idea. > > So joining another player in a MMO is out of the question? > > Teamwork?? > > Maybe? > > They should also get rid of Breakbars too because I don't want to have to change my skill bar before engaging a champ to CC them.. You're comparing apples to pears. First of all all professions have plenty of cc skills. Most builds don't even need to be adjusted to have enough CC for champ fights. Most of the time you can just use a CC elite skill since those would be wasted on trashmobs anyway. Second, breakbars are prevalent enough to actually warrant building around them. Something I can't say about retaliation. Edit: Third, you have plenty of time to react to a breakbar as opposed to retaliation, which kills you for something you did in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Can someone post the build code to one of these builds that is getting wrecked? I would like to try it myself and see if it's as bad as people say it is and if I can't find some counterplay. No judgement or "git gud" here. I would genuinely like to see one of these builds that is getting shreded by retal on the new map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BunjiKugashira.9754 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > Can someone post the build code to one of these builds that is getting wrecked? > I would like to try it myself and see if it's as bad as people say it is and if I can't find some counterplay. > > No judgement or "git gud" here. I would genuinely like to see one of these builds that is getting shreded by retal on the new map. [&DQYfHSkrMBknDycPywDLAL4BcwBCAU4BmRKWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA=] Equipment is full Zerker with Scholar runes. Dagger + Warhorn with Sigills of Force and Cruelty. You overcharge air, switch to fire or earth to cast skill 5, immediately switch back to air and cast air 5 or glyph of storms or LH 4 until you can overcharge air again. For healing water 5 + arcane brilliance should fill you up completely. CC is on water 4 + air 4. I do realize that this is possibly the worst build you can use against a mob that has retaliation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funky.4861 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Can i suggest to anyone struggling with retal to play with the veteran karka in southsun cove? The tells for their skills are easy enough to read and give you time to react, but i can confidently say that i can't tackle them on my guard, really struggle with my thief, but have little to no problems with my mes and necro. The issue i have is that their evade frame lasts longer than the animation suggests, so on thief i need to wait until it starts taking damage again before i can strip the retal, so it's a L2P issue on my part; that and having access to boonstips/converts :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"Tyncale.1629" said: > The mechanic is cool, however reading the signs that retal is about to happen is again the big problem in GW2. Too much visual clutter, mediocre signaling. Enable me to completely get rid of Fx and a new world of Mob-behaviour will be revealed. > > There is this Giant in Elon Riverlands, a hero point, that really makes a show of his big knock back attack. This guy is big, there are usually no other players around and the lead-up animation is in your face and lengthy: you can actually anticipate on his attack. I am not saying they all should be so easy to read and anticipate but at least give us a chance to read the signs. It is fun to dodge each of his knock backs, makes you feel good. Oh, I don't know, maybe look at the icons underneath the enemy name and learn what they different ones mean, that's a simple of way of telling what the mob has up against you without trying to see it through the visual clutter. There's other ways of finding out if retal has been used by a mob, they get the same icons we get as players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Some people saying retaliation is more suited for PvP content ... How is a boon that punishes someone for attacking a good thing? Not every class can boon rip/corrupt or such. It seems to me like a very cheap tactic to for example go extremely tanky and then let the enemy kill themselves on retaliation. I made a thread about this issue some months ago - it was moved in the WvW section, as with all things in such regards, nothing ever came of it. It is really a lot of fun when you can't do anything against an enemy zerg in WvW just because you got no way to remove retaliation and attacking the zerg kills you no matter how much you "dodge" or avoid actually getting attacked by them. I don't think a boon that forces you to idly sit there and wait until it drops off, if you don't have a way to remove it, is a good mechanic. Especially not on trash mobs, and even less so in WvW. (Someone posted a short clip of retaliation on zergs in WvW in that thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1037026/#Comment_1037026 ) Now, while I haven't played on the new map, the same problem exists when groups of enemies get retaliation. You can't just turn off your AE, all you can do is not attack - but that's not possible if the AE is already on the ground. At best you can pull the mobs out of it. Not to mention, some classes just weren't designed to be sturdy, they were designed to push out massive damage to kill enemies quickly before the enemy fights back. With the amount of visual clutter and the fast paced combat in GW2, retaliation just seems like a very poor mechanic. And I'm still of the opinion that it should be removed completly. EDIT: I forgot to mention the very unequal treatment for some classes due to having "many small hits" vs having "few big hits" scaling retaliation extremly biased towards causing significantly more damage for the many hits than for the few. A great disadvantage for some. (One might think of Ele as being a "heavy hitter", but changes like Lava Font getting reduced damage and reduced cooldown really push the class more towards causing the damage through many hits instead of fewer big ones. Not to mention, a meteor shower is just pure suicide when you got a group of enemies with retaliation around. But that's just one example...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Retaliation is extremely bad design. It is not a mechanic that requires you to think react or anything. If it is removable (not always) one player can strip it, so it does not exist. If you do not have anyone to remove it, well.. just do not attack the enemy... It should not exist, not even the in PvP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borgs.6103 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Here are some ideas on how to deal with Retaliation in general: * Boon Strip * Boon Corrupt * Tank-Up * Condition Damage * Stop Attacking * Ask for help because you're playing an MMORPG Visual Clutter has nothing to do with it. Retaliation has an icon - a fist on a target's boon bar. PvE mobs rarely have 2340329 icons on their bar, except for those champion bounties. Fast-paced combat has nothing to do with it. There is a stow weapon hotkey that instantly stops your character from doing whatever it is they're doing. Also, dodge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Megametzler.5729 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Typical problem of overload air. :trollface: Sometimes I killed myself in a literal second. Another second for the downstate. Some builds are severly punished by this indeed. Maybe a small iCD could help? "Get hit by retaliation only once per second" or so? Overload air used to hit 3 targets 4 times a second: 3 x 4 x 800 = 9600 damage per second... I think now it is two times per second? Still big numbers. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindcircus.1506 Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > I do realize that this is possibly the worst build you can use against a mob that has retaliation. I agree. It's super glassy. So the question is: What possible advantage do these traits offer you that being dead is more efficient than changing them for a fight with retal and changing them back afterwards? You were highly critical of the design earlier in the thread and then admit to bringing a knife to a gunfight. What is the reason for not adapting to the fight? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syrus.2174 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 > @"borgs.6103" said: > Here are some ideas on how to deal with Retaliation in general: > * Boon Strip > * Boon Corrupt > * Tank-Up > * Condition Damage > * Stop Attacking > * Ask for help because you're playing an MMORPG > > Visual Clutter has nothing to do with it. Retaliation has an icon - a fist on a target's boon bar. PvE mobs rarely have 2340329 icons on their bar, except for those champion bounties. > Fast-paced combat has nothing to do with it. There is a stow weapon hotkey that instantly stops your character from doing whatever it is they're doing. **Also, dodge.** > > Of course, "tanking up" is probably a good suggestion with nowadays open world PvE content. At least to some degree. Boon strip and corrupt just isn't available for everyone, we can't all run around as scourges all day. It'd be boring. Besides that, once again I'd like to refer to this poster's video: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1037026/#Comment_1037026 The amount of "not attacking" going on there is quite telling, I think. They fired one skill into the mass and died to it. And I sincerely hope I'm missing sarcasm when it comes to the "dodge" suggestion. They wasted both dodges and a heal with futile results, without the enemy actually having to fight back at all. Now one may say that attacking an enemy zerg "alone" is a futile thing to do either way, but in my opinion, the enemy should at least be required to actively figght back to defend itself instead of having the attacker kill themselves on nothing but retaliation. Concerning PvE, yes, mindlessly spamming attacks does not sound like a good thing, but let's be honest. We are talking about trash mobs here, they usually run around in groups and you don't check if they run retaliation or not, you just want to deal with them as fast as possible. If it were a more "significant" enemy, you'd expect more finess and a harder time fighting them. Often, by the time you realize an enemy got retaliation, you've already taken a significant portion of damage - especially if you play a squishier class or setup that "kills with a thousand cuts" you'll kill yourself the moment retaliation pops up. Stopping damage is not always immediatly possible as AEs linger for example. Not every class got a good or fun condition build either, and even with condition damage you can have similar trouble due to the way you apply those conditions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teratus.2859 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 The main problem I have with retaliation is that it is punishingly effective against players and almost total crap against most enemies.. Much like confusion in a lot of ways which can suck against many PvE enemies due to how slow they attack. Imo retaliation needs to get some kind of modifier from a player stat.. perhaps toughness or concentration to boost how much damage is directed back at enemies rather than rely entirely on the enemies power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante.1508 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you... > > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > I don't like it. > > > > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said: > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said: > > > > @"Asum.4960" said: > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death. > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat. > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game. > > > > > > > > > > Thank you... > > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some. > > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said: > > > I don't like it. > > > > > > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is. > > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE? > > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids. > > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard. > > Yes, it does. > As an elementalist just the possibility of a mob applying retaliation to themselves prevents me from using most of my damage skills. > Meteor shower? I'd be dead. > Air overload? I'd be dead. > Lava font? Has the potential to trigger retal 5 times. > Lightning Orb? Eats about half of my hp. > Wildfire? Same. > Glyph of Storms? I'd be dead. > > All of these attacks are multi-hit attacks that linger for a while after casting. Once they have been cast, I have no control over them. Thus I can no longer cancel them if the enemy gets retaliation. The only counter-play to retaliation is therefore not to use these skills. Which leaves me with almost no damage skills besides my auto-attack. Kills me in seconds with a ranger.. before i even have chance to stop attacking im downed. Conditions in this game just lost the plot and as i said up above its just made the game unfun to play these days, i barely play new content outside of old tyria core because the mechanics are just painful and tedious to deal with.. Kinda wish i'd never bought Season 2 onwards. Why can't player characters get 2min long retal skills... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyncale.1629 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > @"Tyncale.1629" said: > > The mechanic is cool, however reading the signs that retal is about to happen is again the big problem in GW2. Too much visual clutter, mediocre signaling. Enable me to completely get rid of Fx and a new world of Mob-behaviour will be revealed. > > > > There is this Giant in Elon Riverlands, a hero point, that really makes a show of his big knock back attack. This guy is big, there are usually no other players around and the lead-up animation is in your face and lengthy: you can actually anticipate on his attack. I am not saying they all should be so easy to read and anticipate but at least give us a chance to read the signs. It is fun to dodge each of his knock backs, makes you feel good. > > Oh, I don't know, maybe look at the icons underneath the enemy name and learn what they different ones mean, that's a simple of way of telling what the mob has up against you without trying to see it through the visual clutter. There's other ways of finding out if retal has been used by a mob, they get the same icons we get as players. You mean those tiny icons, sometimes over 15 in a row, that constantly change places so that it is impossible to mouse over them and see the popup description? You are joking. Do you think the average player has all those icons and their meaning memorized? maybe if we could adjust the UI in GW2 in a meaningful way, like being able to adjust the size of icons we choose. That way people could pick the effects they want to be signaled about and make them stand out 5 times larger or something. Then those icons could start to mean something. GW2 has the most rigid UI I have ever seen in a MMO. It is NOT well done. Everquest (20 years old) has way more options for alerts then GW2. For instance you can add sound alerts to certain events, or certain text appearing in your chat. Like the Combat chat reads: "An Ogre Veteran is preparing his retaliation attack" and you can assign a big DING!! to the word retaliation for instance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solnos.8045 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 For all the people who keep saying boon strip, how about every class get access to boon strip first? Even then by that logic, every monster in the game can have 25 might, perma fury, and protection, but it's okay, cause some people can boon strip. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaklex.6308 Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 > @"Tyncale.1629" said: > > @"Zaklex.6308" said: > > > @"Tyncale.1629" said: > > > The mechanic is cool, however reading the signs that retal is about to happen is again the big problem in GW2. Too much visual clutter, mediocre signaling. Enable me to completely get rid of Fx and a new world of Mob-behaviour will be revealed. > > > > > > There is this Giant in Elon Riverlands, a hero point, that really makes a show of his big knock back attack. This guy is big, there are usually no other players around and the lead-up animation is in your face and lengthy: you can actually anticipate on his attack. I am not saying they all should be so easy to read and anticipate but at least give us a chance to read the signs. It is fun to dodge each of his knock backs, makes you feel good. > > > > Oh, I don't know, maybe look at the icons underneath the enemy name and learn what they different ones mean, that's a simple of way of telling what the mob has up against you without trying to see it through the visual clutter. There's other ways of finding out if retal has been used by a mob, they get the same icons we get as players. > > You mean those tiny icons, sometimes over 15 in a row, that constantly change places so that it is impossible to mouse over them and see the popup description? You are joking. Do you think the average player has all those icons and their meaning memorized? maybe if we could adjust the UI in GW2 in a meaningful way, like being able to adjust the size of icons we choose. That way people could pick the effects they want to be signaled about and make them stand out 5 times larger or something. Then those icons could start to mean something. GW2 has the most rigid UI I have ever seen in a MMO. It is NOT well done. > > Everquest (20 years old) has way more options for alerts then GW2. For instance you can add sound alerts to certain events, or certain text appearing in your chat. Like the Combat chat reads: "An Ogre Veteran is preparing his retaliation attack" and you can assign a big DING!! to the word retaliation for instance. Not the tiny ones, the slightly larger ones to the left side of the row...that's where it will show, the same place as it shows the different bounty mechanics...and we're talking about one mechanic here, retal, you don't need to memorize all of the icons, only the important ones that affect the player, not all of the things affecting the mob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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