Can PvE not have retal?

[Noodle Ant.1605]

I meant PvE enemies btw :lol:.

 

In Bjora Marches, there are certain champions who periodically gain some boons, including a lengthy retal which can hit as stupidly high as 800 per tick.

 

This isn’t the first time this has happened; in Dragonfall, Shadow Monks can grant retal to a whole group, and then grant a ton of barrier on top of that, making you hurt yourself for literally no gain (~400 per tick).

 

I’ve been mostly noticing this when I play tempest, when I shoot out a lighting orb or leave an overload air, these enemies can promptly pop retal and then I end up ripping myself to shreds and there is no way to stop it.

 

If it’s unstrippable and purposely a mechanic (e.g. gorse) then fine, leave it as is but PvE mobs, especially the ones in open world, should either have no or *extremely limited* access to this boon (1-2s with obvious tell, because fyi the visual fx doesn’t appear on them).

 

Atm, it’s passive play from the ai, it punishes you for simply existing because the only counter play (unless playing very specific classes) is waiting out 10s, while you already get pinged for 3k by other things.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I applaud a-net for this design choice. That's the way it should be. Enemies should be punishing to brain dead dps rotation tactics. Retal makes you actually observe what's up and react. Asides from "specific classes" (you can find a necro under every rock in PvE, myself included), you can just buy a Superior Sigil of Nullification, slab it on your weapon and do some retal removing yourself , as long as you land a hit from a flank or behind.

 

The enemies are there to make you think and strategize, it would be a bloody shame if they failed to do at least this much (regarding bosses).

[lokh.2695]

Retaliation is one of the few things that actually kill players in PvE if they don't pay attention. I think it's good the way it is.

[Tyncale.1629]

The mechanic is cool, however reading the signs that retal is about to happen is again the big problem in GW2. Too much visual clutter, mediocre signaling. Enable me to completely get rid of Fx and a new world of Mob-behaviour will be revealed.

 

There is this Giant in Elon Riverlands, a heropoint, that really makes a show of his big Knockback attack. This guy is big, there are usually no other players around and the lead-up animation is in your face and lengthy: you can actually anticipate on his attack. I am not saying they all should be so easy to read and anticipate but at least give us a chance to read the signs. It is fun to dodge each of his Knockbacks, makes you feel good.

[Voltekka.2375]

Finally SOME semblance of challenge where you actually need to either use boonrips or stop attacking until retal ends, a welcome change to the endless 1-1-1-1-1 spamming. Could we have more of this please

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> I applaud a-net for this design choice. That's the way it should be. Enemies should be punishing to brain dead dps rotation tactics. Retal makes you actually observe what's up and react. Asides from "specific classes" (you can find a necro under every rock in PvE, myself included), you can just buy a Superior Sigil of Nullification, slab it on your weapon and do some retal removing yourself , as long as you land a hit from a flank or behind.

>

> The enemies are there to make you think and strategize, it would be a bloody shame if they failed to do at least this much (regarding bosses).

 

I don't think the OP is unaware of boon stripping effects. He's simply pointing out (and rightly so!) that retaliation is a boon that is much better suited to PvP, where it does exactly as you say, punishing braindead DPS rotations and rewarding people for paying attention and using a well-rounded build. The problem with applying this same logic to PvE trash mobs is that...it's annoying! There is relatively less payoff for killing your one-millionth trash mob than there is for turning the tide in a PvP match by defeating an opponent and capturing a point.

 

Mechanics that make you pay for hitting mobs that are literally swarming you every step you take is a bad idea, imo. It does not promote "smart" gameplay. It's simply annoying. Retaliation should be kept to a minimum in PvE.

[Asum.4960]

Retal is indeed a bit problematic in PvE just because of how rare it is, as well as many PvE builds containing a lot of rolling damage/damaging fields that are being stacked and can persist for quite some time, which basically mean if any mob suddenly pops up Retal out of nowhere, you as player are just dead within seconds, no matter if you stop attacking instantly, or how many heals you spam out (unless maybe you got x% of damage heals).

 

So while I desperately would like to see anything challenging at all in open world, I don't want it to be cheap either, and depending on the profession and build, Retal can be extremely cheap with next to no, or at least no reasonable counterplay (like running boon stripping Sigils for the one out of 1000 mobs that suddenly puts on Retal).

So imo Retaliation should be used very sparingly in non organised PvE, ideally as punishment for non broken breakbars, which would both serve as telegraph as well as counter mechanic should boon strip not be available.

 

To lay down a bunch of AoE fields to then instantly blow up out of nowhere because suddenly there is Retal feels just cheap.

[FrigginPaco.4178]

On the other hand... ;)

 

I fought that Murelo boss, but I was running a warrior set of full harriers trying that new support build using mace or horn, and then hammer. My idea is to make a cc build for enemies but also to support by healing and buffing any allies present.

 

Let me tell you I was able to do a lot by pumping out barrier and healing people for 3K a shout, especially with Shake It Off and For Great Justice being on such low recharge cooldowns. It may have been punishing for people who attack very quickly, but mace and hammer are designed for debilitating and cc'ing an opponent. They attack slowly compared to some things that fire off at rapid intervals. Even if I run a Berserker set with the same weapons I would do much better than, say, warhorn 4 on Tempest. Or is it 5? Either way I know the skill you're talking about xD

 

I'm glad that I could use my kind of silly build to heal people in that particular encounter. Same thing with one of the other bosses that frequently AoEs people. Good on them from making retaliation hurt and for people to be aware that it's even a boon that enemies can use.

[ATMAvatar.5749]

The retaliation on Murello champ is awful. If the group of people fighting it does not include someone with boon stripping, then you're in for a lot of downed people and likely not completing the fight in time. I would have much preferred the champs include mechanics that require the use of the essence manipulation masteries as a check on mindless DPS than retaliation.

[Eloc Freidon.5692]

Even worse that this retaliation doesn't even show in most cases and therefor can't be boon stripped.

[Dante.1508]

> @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> I applaud a-net for this design choice. That's the way it should be. Enemies should be punishing to brain dead dps rotation tactics. Retal makes you actually observe what's up and react. Asides from "specific classes" (you can find a necro under every rock in PvE, myself included), you can just buy a Superior Sigil of Nullification, slab it on your weapon and do some retal removing yourself , as long as you land a hit from a flank or behind.

>

> The enemies are there to make you think and strategize, it would be a bloody shame if they failed to do at least this much (regarding bosses).

 

Why that completely voids the whole point of gaming fun? Punishing customers just makes customers uninstall imo.

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Finally SOME semblance of challenge where you actually need to either use boonrips or stop attacking until retal ends, a welcome change to the endless 1-1-1-1-1 spamming. Could we have more of this please

 

Sounds like really tedious gameplay.. So apparently we can no longer have different levels of gameplay anymore.. And some of us enjoy 1-1-1-1 gameplay.

[Knighthonor.4061]

Boon steal and corrupt.

[Hannelore.8153]

This is what we've come to, where the slightest bit of difficulty that is fully counterable is met with critisism every time. This thread should instead be named "I can't go into combat on my seven-year-old Berserker full glass MAX DPS build and survive everything".

 

Boon strip, boon corrupt, condition damage, slower attacking weapons, passive healing, even just Vitality, ...

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Noodle Ant.1605" said:

> Atm, it’s passive play from the ai, it punishes you for simply existing because the only counter play (unless playing very specific classes) is waiting out 10s,

If this were true the rest of your post might have some value.

But it isn't.

The problem with open world is that there isn't enough boon play. It relegates a great deal of class mechanics to competitive-only niche roles and has created a samey-feeling combat flow across all content.

Games need to get harder as you progress.

[lokh.2695]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> Sounds like really tedious gameplay.. So apparently we can no longer have different levels of gameplay anymore.. And some of us enjoy 1-1-1-1 gameplay.

 

To each their own. And whoever enjoys this gameplay can freely chose from any other boss on the map w/o retal. There are still plenty. I'd rather not remove something that adds to diversity.

 

Edit: Random Retal, as some Bounty mechanics do for example, are a bit different maybe, but generally having to care about retaliation every now and then keeps ppl sharp.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > I applaud a-net for this design choice. That's the way it should be. Enemies should be punishing to brain dead dps rotation tactics. Retal makes you actually observe what's up and react. Asides from "specific classes" (you can find a necro under every rock in PvE, myself included), you can just buy a Superior Sigil of Nullification, slab it on your weapon and do some retal removing yourself , as long as you land a hit from a flank or behind.

> >

> > The enemies are there to make you think and strategize, it would be a bloody shame if they failed to do at least this much (regarding bosses).

>

> I don't think the OP is unaware of boon stripping effects. He's simply pointing out (and rightly so!) that retaliation is a boon that is much better suited to PvP, where it does exactly as you say, punishing braindead DPS rotations and rewarding people for paying attention and using a well-rounded build. The problem with applying this same logic to PvE trash mobs is that...it's annoying! There is relatively less payoff for killing your one-millionth trash mob than there is for turning the tide in a PvP match by defeating an opponent and capturing a point.

>

> Mechanics that make you pay for hitting mobs that are literally swarming you every step you take is a bad idea, imo. It does not promote "smart" gameplay. It's simply annoying. Retaliation should be kept to a minimum in PvE.

 

Making monsters closer to PvP is a positive thing IMO. The more PvE feel like PvP, the more you have to be tactical/smart in the fight.

Not having permanent application of Retaliation/Torment/Confusion is right, but it shouldn't be excluded from PvE.

I would have some monsters block, dodge, have Aegis, have real cooldown on their ability so Chilled/Weakness become useful counters.

[Asum.4960]

> @"Hannelore.8153" said:

> This is what we've come to, where the slightest bit of difficulty that is fully counterable is met with critisism every time. This thread should instead be named "I can't go into combat on my seven-year-old Berserker full glass MAX DPS build and survive everything".

>

> Boon strip, boon corrupt, condition damage, slower attacking weapons, passive healing, even just Vitality, ...

 

Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death.

As a mainly Raids and Fractal (CM) and PvP player who just rarely ventures out into Open World, simply because it's so boringly easy, I would usually be with you when it comes to challenge in open world, believe me.

 

As a full glass power Berseker, you probably wouldn't even mind Retal that much, as you don't really have much rolling damage and can just stop attacking, or maybe even back off to reevaluate you build, considering the options you listed, if available.

 

Other builds mainly lay down ticking damaging fields though, and can easily stack sometimes up to 5 different rolling damage sources on mobs (including Symbols on Guardian, Fields on Elementalist, etc.), which if suddenly Retal pops up will still persist for quite some time out of your control and essentially nuke you from full health within 3-5 seconds as you are suddenly taking up to thousands of damage per second, no matter if you stop attacking instantly or spam every available heal or what have you, which can be a pretty frustrating experience.

 

That's the thing with Retal, it behaves drastically different depending on the build you are playing, and while it's barely noticeable for some, easily counterable for others, for some builds it's essentially instant death without room for counterplay at that moment.

 

So while it's not the end of the world if some mob just randomly nukes you out of orbit by suddenly applying a single boon, it does feel cheap and imo should be properly telegraphed and offer other counters, such as a breakbar to interrupt the Retal application, which is a mechanic that clearly needs more incentive for open world players to learn anyway.

 

It's not a boon you can just randomly sprinkle onto mobs though, imo that's not every good design, considering the nature and complexity of the combat system.

Reminds me a lot of some mobs with a Reflect affix in certain ARPG's, which would just randomly "oneshot" you out of nowhere on some builds, to be then usually turned down eventually.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

Retal is fine on some champs and maybe vets, but having a bunch of trash mobs randomly pop Retal is just cheap BS that ruins cleave.

[Infusion.7149]

800 retaliation per tick while overload air is used is rather brutal but I think it's more to do with the power scaling on retaliation.

Ironically the classes most susceptible to it don't have boonrip and I've seen rangers , eles, and non spellbreaker warriors die to it in the new zone.

In WvW/PvP retaliation only does a few hundred damage at best per hit in comparison.

[Cyninja.2954]

The only issue with retaliation in PvE is that not all classes can counter it (aka not all have boon strips, steals or corrupts) via skills and it's to rare to use specific sigils against it.

 

That said, it's one of the few mechanics which reward players for paying attention. If you are so stupid as to not notice your life going down while you are attacking an enemy and trying to figure out why that might be the case, you deserve to run back from the waypoint.

[Reverielle.3972]

I actually really like. It gives you a bit of 'fear' on these encounters; meaning you just can't (as some others have said) mindlessly go full damage-dealing and pay no heed to what the enemy is doing. Taking a step back, there was a discussion the other day in Bjora Marches during the Fraenir assault, just how easy the game's content has gotten of late. And ease by and large leads to boredom, especially with combat; which is fundamentally supposed to have some unknown element with regards to its outcome (i.e. you or your enemy is defeated).

 

Boons to enemies really became a feature with Path of Fire, and I hope they keep extending and implementing the option. Though if it becomes widespread, I do hope some classes - that are currently lacking - receive more boon-removal options.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

I don't like it.

We don't have enough boons (including retal) on PvE mobs to make sacrificing a utility slot or weapon sigill worthwhile. On top of that not every profession has reasonable access to boonstrip. We don't even have enough retal in the game to make looking at the enemy's buffs an obvious reaction when you're taking tons of damage. The first thing you check is red circles on the ground and if there aren't any you check your ping next. If that wasn't the case, you check the area for invisible mobs, mobs that didn't get rendered or far-away snipers.

 

On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is.

[mindcircus.1506]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death.

If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat.

We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game.

 

 

[Strider Pj.2193]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death.

> If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat.

> We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game.

>

>

 

Thank you...

 

I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some.

 

It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> I don't like it.

>

>

> On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is.

 

Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE?

 

It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids.

 

It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard.

[FOX.3582]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"ZeftheWicked.3076" said:

> > I applaud a-net for this design choice. That's the way it should be. Enemies should be punishing to brain dead dps rotation tactics. Retal makes you actually observe what's up and react. Asides from "specific classes" (you can find a necro under every rock in PvE, myself included), you can just buy a Superior Sigil of Nullification, slab it on your weapon and do some retal removing yourself , as long as you land a hit from a flank or behind.

> >

> > The enemies are there to make you think and strategize, it would be a bloody shame if they failed to do at least this much (regarding bosses).

>

> Why that completely voids the whole point of gaming fun? Punishing customers just makes customers uninstall imo.

> > @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> > Finally SOME semblance of challenge where you actually need to either use boonrips or stop attacking until retal ends, a welcome change to the endless 1-1-1-1-1 spamming. Could we have more of this please

>

> Sounds like really tedious gameplay.. So apparently we can no longer have different levels of gameplay anymore.. And some of us enjoy 1-1-1-1 gameplay.

 

Those people should stay away from multiplayer games, or ever better, find some other skill less hobby (count how many times you can blink your eyes in one minute, or something like that).