Can PvE not have retal?

[ZDragon.3046]

I personally think we should see much more boon spam on pve foes than we do on pvp players to be honest and not just with retail. I gives all the boon corruption tools they keep shoving onto necro a purpose in pve content where as before its just useless weight on a skill taking up space with no purpose till you went to pvp or wvw.

I would like to see more stuff like this added in general and not just in open world but in raids, fractals, and strikes too.

 

I welcome boon spam on AI Foes in pve but not on players in pvp.

[borgs.6103]

> @"Solnos.8045" said:

> For all the people who keep saying boon strip, how about every class get access to boon strip first?

>

> Even then by that logic, every monster in the game can have 25 might, perma fury, and protection, but it's okay, cause some people can boon strip.

 

Now you're just being disingenuous. It's all about the challenge of the specific encounter.

 

Let's take some other monsters for example:

* The Chak have goop that slows you down and makes you take more damage from them the longer you stand in it. Can be nullified by a mastery which removes it the goop and makes one immune to it for a short time after dodging. They also have reflect shields that pretty much a death sentence like Retaliation to any ranged attackers.

* Smokescales are literally invulnerable in their smoke fields and when you melee them, you get blinded for days. Ranged damage deals with them easy.

* Wyverns, Rolling Devils and their big daddy Bonebreakers are such a pain to both melee and ranged, unless you break their defiance bar. Once broken though, they're as easy to kill as ambient creatures.

* Awakened Canids are so much pain to deal with on melee, and will get boons when attack from ranged. To beat them, you just have to kite them and wait out their "spring from the ground" attack, then attack in melee or if you're ranged, just deal with the protection boon's 33% damage reduction of your attacks.

* Awakened Abomination counter attacks and reflects range damage. You just wait out that attack and deal as otherwise.

* Diplomat Tarban's neverending confusion stacks. He gets harder every time Anet decides to buff confusion in PVE. Best way to deal with him is to not attack at all when he stacks those up and always have reflects and condition clears equipped when fighting him.

 

Look at these hard monsters before that champion murellow. They all pose a challenge that require at least a little bit of effort to succeed. Some classes are totally going to have a hard time with those encounters while some can breeze through them.

 

Without that retaliation, what would be that Champion Murrelow *Group Event* (mind you!)'s challenge? Might as well replace it with a static hunk of meat.

 

And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

[Ayakaru.6583]

no, in fact, we need more of this.

People have gotten too used to afk slapping with this steel sticks on bosses.

Learn to be attention, strip some boons, corrupt your enemies, dodge them.

If you can't do any of that, take a step back, heal up and recover stamina, then rush back in.

 

All i'm saying is, this post reads to me as "i don't want to have to pay attention in this game"

[Endless Soul.5178]

I fully admit that it took me a minute to realize that OP was talking about _retaliation_. :s

[ugrakarma.9416]

> @"Endless Soul.5178" said:

> I fully admit that it took me a minute to realize that OP was talking about _retaliation_. :s

 

Same lol i was misundestanding as "reta**i**l".

I really dont understand the point of game mechanics overnerfed to not annoy anyone, i do lots of pvp and even in that i ignore retaliation. The only class i see stack a relevant amount of retalation is Guard, i guess can stack 10s of it.

 

Im really alergic to any form of micromanage, i dont really relly on a 2s mechanic, when battle lasts 1 to 3 minutes.

 

 

[Ben K.6238]

Boon strip first, faceroll second.

 

Retaliation and confusion (which is even rarer on PvE mobs) are some of the last semblances of gameplay mechanics introduced in GW1 that require intelligent thought to counter. Remove them all and we may as well just have an "I Win" button.

[Westenev.5289]

Even though I want Anet to continue using mechanics they built (so bosses don't turn into androgenous breakbar health sponges), I don't think Retal should be a spamable rune. Retal is a boon that needs more animations and tells for "fair" gameplay.

[DaFishBob.6518]

Every time I see boon strip in this thread, I keep thinking about that mordrem wolf in Iron Marches.

[Dante.1508]

> @"borgs.6103" said:

> > @"Solnos.8045" said:

> > For all the people who keep saying boon strip, how about every class get access to boon strip first?

> >

> > Even then by that logic, every monster in the game can have 25 might, perma fury, and protection, but it's okay, cause some people can boon strip.

>

> Now you're just being disingenuous. It's all about the challenge of the specific encounter.

>

> Let's take some other monsters for example:

> * The Chak have goop that slows you down and makes you take more damage from them the longer you stand in it. Can be nullified by a mastery which removes it the goop and makes one immune to it for a short time after dodging. They also have reflect shields that pretty much a death sentence like Retaliation to any ranged attackers.

> * Smokescales are literally invulnerable in their smoke fields and when you melee them, you get blinded for days. Ranged damage deals with them easy.

> * Wyverns, Rolling Devils and their big daddy Bonebreakers are such a pain to both melee and ranged, unless you break their defiance bar. Once broken though, they're as easy to kill as ambient creatures.

> * Awakened Canids are so much pain to deal with on melee, and will get boons when attack from ranged. To beat them, you just have to kite them and wait out their "spring from the ground" attack, then attack in melee or if you're ranged, just deal with the protection boon's 33% damage reduction of your attacks.

> * Awakened Abomination counter attacks and reflects range damage. You just wait out that attack and deal as otherwise.

> * Diplomat Tarban's neverending confusion stacks. He gets harder every time Anet decides to buff confusion in PVE. Best way to deal with him is to not attack at all when he stacks those up and always have reflects and condition clears equipped when fighting him.

>

> Look at these hard monsters before that champion murellow. They all pose a challenge that require at least a little bit of effort to succeed. Some classes are totally going to have a hard time with those encounters while some can breeze through them.

>

> Without that retaliation, what would be that Champion Murrelow *Group Event* (mind you!)'s challenge? Might as well replace it with a static hunk of meat.

>

> And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

 

What boon strip do rangers get?

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"borgs.6103" said:

> > > @"Solnos.8045" said:

> > > For all the people who keep saying boon strip, how about every class get access to boon strip first?

> > >

> > > Even then by that logic, every monster in the game can have 25 might, perma fury, and protection, but it's okay, cause some people can boon strip.

> >

> > Now you're just being disingenuous. It's all about the challenge of the specific encounter.

> >

> > Let's take some other monsters for example:

> > * The Chak have goop that slows you down and makes you take more damage from them the longer you stand in it. Can be nullified by a mastery which removes it the goop and makes one immune to it for a short time after dodging. They also have reflect shields that pretty much a death sentence like Retaliation to any ranged attackers.

> > * Smokescales are literally invulnerable in their smoke fields and when you melee them, you get blinded for days. Ranged damage deals with them easy.

> > * Wyverns, Rolling Devils and their big daddy Bonebreakers are such a pain to both melee and ranged, unless you break their defiance bar. Once broken though, they're as easy to kill as ambient creatures.

> > * Awakened Canids are so much pain to deal with on melee, and will get boons when attack from ranged. To beat them, you just have to kite them and wait out their "spring from the ground" attack, then attack in melee or if you're ranged, just deal with the protection boon's 33% damage reduction of your attacks.

> > * Awakened Abomination counter attacks and reflects range damage. You just wait out that attack and deal as otherwise.

> > * Diplomat Tarban's neverending confusion stacks. He gets harder every time Anet decides to buff confusion in PVE. Best way to deal with him is to not attack at all when he stacks those up and always have reflects and condition clears equipped when fighting him.

> >

> > Look at these hard monsters before that champion murellow. They all pose a challenge that require at least a little bit of effort to succeed. Some classes are totally going to have a hard time with those encounters while some can breeze through them.

> >

> > Without that retaliation, what would be that Champion Murrelow *Group Event* (mind you!)'s challenge? Might as well replace it with a static hunk of meat.

> >

> > And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

>

> What boon strip do rangers get?

 

Did you read his last paragraph?

 

Here let me highlight the relevant parts:

> And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. **Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear**, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

 

Take a gander at where boon ranger falls.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"DaFishBob.6518" said:

> Every time I see boon strip in this thread, I keep thinking about that mordrem wolf in Iron Marches.

 

I remember the good old times when ALL Mordrem Wolves were like that, until Heart of Thorns nerfed them to the ground.

[Asum.4960]

> @"borgs.6103" said:

> Let's take some other monsters for example:

> * The Chak have goop that slows you down and makes you take more damage from them the longer you stand in it. Can be nullified by a mastery which removes it the goop and makes one immune to it for a short time after dodging. They also have reflect shields that pretty much a death sentence like Retaliation to any ranged attackers.

> * Smokescales are literally invulnerable in their smoke fields and when you melee them, you get blinded for days. Ranged damage deals with them easy.

> * Wyverns, Rolling Devils and their big daddy Bonebreakers are such a pain to both melee and ranged, unless you break their defiance bar. Once broken though, they're as easy to kill as ambient creatures.

> * Awakened Canids are so much pain to deal with on melee, and will get boons when attack from ranged. To beat them, you just have to kite them and wait out their "spring from the ground" attack, then attack in melee or if you're ranged, just deal with the protection boon's 33% damage reduction of your attacks.

> * Awakened Abomination counter attacks and reflects range damage. You just wait out that attack and deal as otherwise.

> * Diplomat Tarban's neverending confusion stacks. He gets harder every time Anet decides to buff confusion in PVE. Best way to deal with him is to not attack at all when he stacks those up and always have reflects and condition clears equipped when fighting him.

>

> Look at these hard monsters before that champion murellow. They all pose a challenge that require at least a little bit of effort to succeed. Some classes are totally going to have a hard time with those encounters while some can breeze through them.

>

> Without that retaliation, what would be that Champion Murrelow *Group Event* (mind you!)'s challenge? Might as well replace it with a static hunk of meat.

 

There is a notable difference between most of that and suddenly getting hit with 5k damage per second from Retal only, without a way to cancel the rolling damage skills responsible.

Reflect would be an issue too if there were numerous projectile attacks which you can put into the world to continuously shoot, just to end up killing yourself in seconds without being able to stop the attacks. But there barely are any of those to be enough of an issue. They are mostly either channels, or once and done abilities, which you can cancel at any time should you notice reflects (or retal) coming up. So as an aware player, you can avoid most of these things as they come up in the moment.

AoE Fields like Symbols, Air Overload, Lava Fonts etc., and continuously ticking attacks like Ray of Judgement you can't cancel when a mob suddenly applies Retal and all you can do is watch your character implode almost instantly if it happens at the wrong moment and enough rolling damage is stacked.

 

That's not difficulty, nor is it an awareness issue. Even if you know that special Mob has Retal, the only counter really is to just autoattack, as you never know when that retal might suddenly come up and screw you for AoE's etc. you placed just before in the past which you then can't take back or cancel. Hardly engaging gameplay.

 

If that's a Raid or Fractal boss etc., fair enough, great in fact. You know it's coming up and you got multiple people in a at least semi organised group out of which someone will most likely be able to take care of it, and if not, adjustments can be made. It provides engaging gameplay and rewards game knowledge in a reasonable manner.

Running around in open world though, it's imo silly to expect people to build around the fact that maybe one out of otherwise dreadfully easy 10000 mobs you will fight might suddenly pop up retal and almost instantly kill you unless you brought boon strip.

 

> @"borgs.6103" said:

> And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

 

Same applies here. Boons on enemies are way to rare/boon strip way too niche in PvE, especially Open world, to expect people to build around these extremely niche cases where a single boon on a single mob is suddenly more deadly than everything else in the game.

Also every profession in the game can fairly easily reach and maintain 25 Might, 100% Crit chance etc. on their own these days. Sure, some have to go through more effort to get there than others, but it's always worth it, as unlike boon strip, it's always beneficial against 100% of all enemies you are fighting.

 

That said, as I said a bunch of times before in this Thread, I'm not even completely against Retal at all. I just don't like the current implementation where for some professions/builds with innate boon strip or those that rely mostly on direct attacks and have little rolling damage, Retal is pretty much meaningless or at best easily countered, while other builds with a lot of AoE's/rolling damage instantly get killed without proper warning or **reasonable** counterplay available.

 

It's just not fun to place down a bunch of AoE's that each last 6 seconds, just for the mob to suddenly decide to pop Retal 2-3 seconds later without prior warning or indicator and to just go "well, guess I'm dead" as you watch your character implode.

 

That might work for every other boon to make mobs more challenging, like adding Might or Quickness to them etc., rewarding players for bringing boon hate, while still leaving them beatable for everybody if they play well enough.

Retal, considering how the game works and what skills players have access to, requires special care though and needs to be used smart and sparingly to provide challenge, as well as needing different counters, like breaking a breakbar interrupting the Retal application, or at least giving ample warning of what's to come to players so they can avoid placing new rolling damage if they are aware players, as otherwise it just ends up being frustrating.

 

 

I personally think Open World is magnitudes too easy, to a point where I mostly avoid that content because it's bores me that much and I would love to see it being made much more challenging. That doesn't mean I want to see some players/builds randomly get "oneshot" by silly design either though, as that just ends up being a frustration.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> Retal, considering how the game works and what skills players have access to, requires special care though and needs to be used smart and sparingly to provide challenge, as well as needing different counters, like breaking a breakbar interrupting the Retal application, or at least giving ample warning of what's to come to players so they can avoid placing new rolling damage if they are aware players, as otherwise it just ends up being frustrating.

 

To be honest the Shadow Monks providing retaliation or the old Mordrem Wolves giving themselves retaliation has plenty of counter play, it's called interrupt. Retaliation granting skills have tells and cast times and every single profession has access to crowd control, unlike boon strip. Retaliation becomes a real problem on champion mobs that apply it without any way of interrupting it, or removing it without boon strip skills/traits.

 

There are two solutions for this problem, you gave one, while a champion has retaliation, they get a breakbar and they lose the boon if the bar is broken, and the second solution is to add a breakbar to the cast of the skill that provides retaliation in the first place, so the most common counter for it (interrupts) can work on champions.

[Asum.4960]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > Retal, considering how the game works and what skills players have access to, requires special care though and needs to be used smart and sparingly to provide challenge, as well as needing different counters, like breaking a breakbar interrupting the Retal application, or at least giving ample warning of what's to come to players so they can avoid placing new rolling damage if they are aware players, as otherwise it just ends up being frustrating.

>

> To be honest the Shadow Monks providing retaliation or the old Mordrem Wolves giving themselves retaliation has plenty of counter play, it's called interrupt. Retaliation granting skills have tells and cast times and every single profession has access to crowd control, unlike boon strip. Retaliation becomes a real problem on champion mobs that apply it without any way of interrupting it, or removing it without boon strip skills/traits.

>

> There are two solutions for this problem, you gave one, while a champion has retaliation, they get a breakbar and they lose the boon if the bar is broken, and the second solution is to add a breakbar to the cast of the skill that provides retaliation in the first place, so the most common counter for it (interrupts) can work on champions.

 

I never really noticed it at normal mobs tbh, although that might be because they die almost instantly anyway before they can do anything.

Where it happened to me in the latest release was the "Champion Fallen Kodan Berserker", which, like all the other champions was a walk in the park to solo, until suddenly, 1-2 minutes into the fight he suddenly applied retal after I placed some Symbols (being on a symbol build) like I had done all the time before in the fight, and instantly blew me up.

 

It's not the biggest issue, but just feels pretty unsatisfying.

 

And yea, a breakbar before the application of Retal, with Retal basically saving as "punishment" for failing to break it is what I had in mind to make this mechanic more interesting and fair.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death.

> > > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat.

> > > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thank you...

> > > >

> > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some.

> > > >

> > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> > > > > I don't like it.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is.

> > > >

> > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE?

> > > >

> > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids.

> > > >

> > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard.

> > >

> > > > @"Strider Pj.2193" said:

> > > > > @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > > > > > @"Asum.4960" said:

> > > > > > Depending on the build you are running at the time, it's not difficulty though, it's more like a cheap instant death.

> > > > > If only there were some way to situationally adapt ones build...if there were some way to change my traits any time I wanted while I was out of combat.

> > > > > We should ask Anet to add something like that to the game.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Thank you...

> > > >

> > > > I guess it’s too hard to pay attention to your surroundings for some.

> > > >

> > > > It’s not like retal is present in all areas...> @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> > > > > I don't like it.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > On top of that it promotes 111 spam-style playing. If I only use auto-attacks, I can cancel my attacks once I take damage. No problem. If I cast spells with lingering aoe-effects, I will be dead the moment that mob pops retal. Even if I don't use a single attack after the mob has retal, I will still die. So 111 auto-attacks it is.

> > > >

> > > > Really? THIS promotes 111 play style in PvE?

> > > >

> > > > It’s all you need for any area in PvE with maybe the exception of Raids.

> > > >

> > > > It actually encourages you to pay attention instead of facerolling the keyboard.

> > >

> > > Yes, it does.

> > > As an elementalist just the possibility of a mob applying retaliation to themselves prevents me from using most of my damage skills.

> > > Meteor shower? I'd be dead.

> > > Air overload? I'd be dead.

> > > Lava font? Has the potential to trigger retal 5 times.

> > > Lightning Orb? Eats about half of my hp.

> > > Wildfire? Same.

> > > Glyph of Storms? I'd be dead.

> > >

> > > All of these attacks are multi-hit attacks that linger for a while after casting. Once they have been cast, I have no control over them. Thus I can no longer cancel them if the enemy gets retaliation. The only counter-play to retaliation is therefore not to use these skills. Which leaves me with almost no damage skills besides my auto-attack.

> >

> > Stop doing open world in zerk gear and you'll stop exploding whenever you take damage.

>

> Ironically the build I like to use in open world is almost the same build I play PvP with (Plat+), with some minor adjustments for stable solo 25 Might Generation etc., and with Symbol Brand is a support/damage hybrid, for which I'm using a Marauder/Diviner Mix for open world.

> It frankly has way more sustain, defense and boonuptimes than you would ever need for 99% of all of open world, but blowing up all mobs instantly with full damage builds gets way too boring, so I like to play something more defensive.

>

> Thing is, Retal does much more damage in PvE than PvP and WvW. Not only is there a flat 33% damage increase in PvE, it also scales with level and Power, which can be higher on Mobs than players.

> So the same build that can easily outsustain cleaving 5 people with Retal in PvP (where you also more rarely get to stack as much damaging fields due to the importance of movement and positioning) still sheer instantly blows up to a single champion with Retal.

>

> If Retal hits you for 5000 damage per second because you got a few rolling damage skills active which you can't cancel, it doesn't matter if you are full zerker, soldier, or whatever.

> Even if I stop actively attacking the second the mob suddenly puts Retal on, go into Resolve and start burst healing, I still just blow up in <5 Seconds, unable to do anything about it.

>

> So while I want to see more challenge (and boons) in PvE, sudden Retal applications are imo not the way to go, unless it's tweaked down at least to levels similar than in PvP modes when affecting players, for the very same reason of it not being fun to be passively blown up if you dare to use anything but autoattacks, or it needs proper telegraphing and more opportunity to be countered, especially for professions without innate boon strip, like I mentioned as punishment for missed breaksbars for example.

 

Then it's an issue with the Power attribute of monsters. The easy way to balance that would be to adjust the Power and damage coefficient of monsters than can use Retaliation. But that's different from removing Retaliation.

[Kulvar.1239]

> @"Dante.1763" said:

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

>

> >

> > Making monsters closer to PvP is a positive thing IMO. The more PvE feel like PvP, the more you have to be tactical/smart in the fight.

> > Not having permanent application of Retaliation/Torment/Confusion is right, but it shouldn't be excluded from PvE.

> > I would have some monsters block, dodge, have Aegis, have real cooldown on their ability so Chilled/Weakness become useful counters.

>

> Most of us who play PVE alot do so because we dont like PVP and how it works, and the toxicity of it. id rather not have it be like PVP at all. So no, IMO its a terrible idea.

 

Why would you want PvE to be just about dps on a punching bag ?

[MokahTGS.7850]

It took me a few moments to figure out the OP wasn't talking about PvE shopping...

 

On topic, I think we need more retaliation not less. Bosses should always force players to think, work as a group, and come up with a way to beat them that is more than pressing 1 to win.

[Syrus.2174]

The main problem, as can only be reiterated again and again, is the lack of counters for most classes. People say "just stop attacking" - can't disable AEs which are already on the ground.

 

A boon corrupt NPC would also be quite annoying, considering how many boons some classes generate without ways to really "not do that".

 

Overall I'd be fine with enemies being more difficult to fight - but let trash be trash and rather put singular stronger enemies (dropping better loot!) in, so that the visual clutter doesn't obstruct their abilities as much.

[BunjiKugashira.9754]

> @"mindcircus.1506" said:

> > @"BunjiKugashira.9754" said:

> > I do realize that this is possibly the worst build you can use against a mob that has retaliation.

> I agree. It's super glassy.

> So the question is: What possible advantage do these traits offer you that being dead is more efficient than changing them for a fight with retal and changing them back afterwards?

> You were highly critical of the design earlier in the thread and then admit to bringing a knife to a gunfight.

> What is the reason for not adapting to the fight?

 

You asked for one of the builds that get blown up by retaliation and I gave you one. It's a shame there's about 1/3rd of a map in the entire game (60+ maps) where I can't play that build. The build is tanky enough for the rest of the game. Sometimes when mob density is low and I feel like the mobs aren't dropping dead fast enough I switch to a sword weaver with a better spike. The fresh-air tempest is perfect for clearing up huge groups of trash mobs. Most of the time I don't even target any particular mob. I just walk through the group while the mobs are dropping around me.

 

The new map has a pretty high mob density. Especially in the camps. So staff weaver would be an interesting choice, however it suffers the same fate as my build when facing retaliation.

 

Of course I adapted... by not playing Elementalist on the new map anymore. Having Mesmer Illusions take most of the retaliation is so easy, it's the same as if the boon wasn't there in the first place. It takes 0 skill to deal with retaliation. It just takes the right profession.

 

And I stand by what I said before: Retaliation in its current implementation in PvE is a bad mechanic. It promotes auto-attacking over using a variety of skills, because it punishes players for any lingering effects. Counterplay is limited to a few select professions that can use boon-strip or cause indirect damage via minions. Skills that apply the deadliest boon a mob can have in PvE are telegraphed badly or not at all. And you can't even wait it out because it just lasts so kitten long.

[Evon Skyfyre.9673]

wrong thread mt

[Rauderi.8706]

Retaliation is also really uneven from the player side.

 

Enemies attack maybe once per 2-3 seconds, and by then the boon's about ready to fall off. And even then, we might do a few hundred damage on their 6-digit life bar.

While we take 5% of our life per tick.

The other bit why player Retal is useless? Active defenses. We're trained (at least I hope we are) to dodge, block, and evade to avoid damage, but none of those circumstances activates Retaliation.

The boon needs an update to fit how we play and the difference in values between players and AI enemies.

[Asenath.8694]

This entire thread boils down to casuals vs. wanna-be elitists. This is the sort of thing that makes WoW's community an acidic pit of piranhas, and the fact that this mechanic has this effect on how people communicate says quite enough about it in and of itself.

[Jackson.9307]

I think Retal is a good boon to have in the open world if used well. As many mentioned already if trash mobs are able to just spam retal, then it's poor design.

 

An example where imo retal is used well is with the Veteran and Champ Chak blitzers. They have a wind up animation of putting up a shield, and once they do, retal is activated. During this state they have a breakbar, which if broken knocks them down, destroys their shield and removes their retal. That is great. Even visually you can see that they have a shield which instantly tells you "dont shoot at it".

 

However there are cases where Vet inquest golems just gain retaliation for ridiculously long time periods which is just annoying for some classes whereas fatal for others such as Tempest.

 

If the devs want to introduce certain boons to the game such as retal, I think more effort and thought has to be put into designing enemies, following the Chak Blitzer as a base example. This applies to all other high impact skills or moves that are given to the PvE enemies.

[Dante.1508]

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > @"borgs.6103" said:

> > > > @"Solnos.8045" said:

> > > > For all the people who keep saying boon strip, how about every class get access to boon strip first?

> > > >

> > > > Even then by that logic, every monster in the game can have 25 might, perma fury, and protection, but it's okay, cause some people can boon strip.

> > >

> > > Now you're just being disingenuous. It's all about the challenge of the specific encounter.

> > >

> > > Let's take some other monsters for example:

> > > * The Chak have goop that slows you down and makes you take more damage from them the longer you stand in it. Can be nullified by a mastery which removes it the goop and makes one immune to it for a short time after dodging. They also have reflect shields that pretty much a death sentence like Retaliation to any ranged attackers.

> > > * Smokescales are literally invulnerable in their smoke fields and when you melee them, you get blinded for days. Ranged damage deals with them easy.

> > > * Wyverns, Rolling Devils and their big daddy Bonebreakers are such a pain to both melee and ranged, unless you break their defiance bar. Once broken though, they're as easy to kill as ambient creatures.

> > > * Awakened Canids are so much pain to deal with on melee, and will get boons when attack from ranged. To beat them, you just have to kite them and wait out their "spring from the ground" attack, then attack in melee or if you're ranged, just deal with the protection boon's 33% damage reduction of your attacks.

> > > * Awakened Abomination counter attacks and reflects range damage. You just wait out that attack and deal as otherwise.

> > > * Diplomat Tarban's neverending confusion stacks. He gets harder every time Anet decides to buff confusion in PVE. Best way to deal with him is to not attack at all when he stacks those up and always have reflects and condition clears equipped when fighting him.

> > >

> > > Look at these hard monsters before that champion murellow. They all pose a challenge that require at least a little bit of effort to succeed. Some classes are totally going to have a hard time with those encounters while some can breeze through them.

> > >

> > > Without that retaliation, what would be that Champion Murrelow *Group Event* (mind you!)'s challenge? Might as well replace it with a static hunk of meat.

> > >

> > > And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

> >

> > What boon strip do rangers get?

>

> Did you read his last paragraph?

>

> Here let me highlight the relevant parts:

> > And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. **Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear**, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

>

> Take a gander at where boon ranger falls.

 

You sound very salty over rangers.. its ok.

> @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> >

> > >

> > > Making monsters closer to PvP is a positive thing IMO. The more PvE feel like PvP, the more you have to be tactical/smart in the fight.

> > > Not having permanent application of Retaliation/Torment/Confusion is right, but it shouldn't be excluded from PvE.

> > > I would have some monsters block, dodge, have Aegis, have real cooldown on their ability so Chilled/Weakness become useful counters.

> >

> > Most of us who play PVE alot do so because we dont like PVP and how it works, and the toxicity of it. id rather not have it be like PVP at all. So no, IMO its a terrible idea.

>

> Why would you want PvE to be just about dps on a punching bag ?

 

Because it fun for some to feel strong.. But that said why do you people always make everything black or white in this forum, you know full well what people are asking but you and others continually shoebox everything said.

> @"Asenath.8694" said:

> This entire thread boils down to casuals vs. wanna-be elitists. This is the sort of thing that makes WoW's community an acidic pit of piranhas, and the fact that this mechanic has this effect on how people communicate says quite enough about it in and of itself.

 

That seems to be a running theme through this whole forums.. Its like this everywhere, its really tiresome to even type here and i believe a group here does it on purpose to attack anything they feel is outside of their little hardcore communities.. Funnily it in the long run is whats helping to end the games populations over time.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Dante.1508" said:

> > @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > > @"Dante.1508" said:

> > > > @"borgs.6103" said:

> > > > > @"Solnos.8045" said:

> > > > > For all the people who keep saying boon strip, how about every class get access to boon strip first?

> > > > >

> > > > > Even then by that logic, every monster in the game can have 25 might, perma fury, and protection, but it's okay, cause some people can boon strip.

> > > >

> > > > Now you're just being disingenuous. It's all about the challenge of the specific encounter.

> > > >

> > > > Let's take some other monsters for example:

> > > > * The Chak have goop that slows you down and makes you take more damage from them the longer you stand in it. Can be nullified by a mastery which removes it the goop and makes one immune to it for a short time after dodging. They also have reflect shields that pretty much a death sentence like Retaliation to any ranged attackers.

> > > > * Smokescales are literally invulnerable in their smoke fields and when you melee them, you get blinded for days. Ranged damage deals with them easy.

> > > > * Wyverns, Rolling Devils and their big daddy Bonebreakers are such a pain to both melee and ranged, unless you break their defiance bar. Once broken though, they're as easy to kill as ambient creatures.

> > > > * Awakened Canids are so much pain to deal with on melee, and will get boons when attack from ranged. To beat them, you just have to kite them and wait out their "spring from the ground" attack, then attack in melee or if you're ranged, just deal with the protection boon's 33% damage reduction of your attacks.

> > > > * Awakened Abomination counter attacks and reflects range damage. You just wait out that attack and deal as otherwise.

> > > > * Diplomat Tarban's neverending confusion stacks. He gets harder every time Anet decides to buff confusion in PVE. Best way to deal with him is to not attack at all when he stacks those up and always have reflects and condition clears equipped when fighting him.

> > > >

> > > > Look at these hard monsters before that champion murellow. They all pose a challenge that require at least a little bit of effort to succeed. Some classes are totally going to have a hard time with those encounters while some can breeze through them.

> > > >

> > > > Without that retaliation, what would be that Champion Murrelow *Group Event* (mind you!)'s challenge? Might as well replace it with a static hunk of meat.

> > > >

> > > > And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

> > >

> > > What boon strip do rangers get?

> >

> > Did you read his last paragraph?

> >

> > Here let me highlight the relevant parts:

> > > And FYI, everyone can boonstrip. **Use Sigils. Too much effort you say? Unfair? Well, it's also unfair that other classes can pretty much have permament 25 stacks of might, fury and swiftness, or tank a whole lot of damage while on full Berserker gear**, or block everything, or dodge everything. Got to have variety in roles and group up, people. At the end of the day, you're playing an MMORPG.

> >

> > Take a gander at where boon ranger falls.

>

> You sound very salty over rangers.. its ok.

> > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > > @"Dante.1763" said:

> > > > @"Kulvar.1239" said:

> > >

> > > >

> > > > Making monsters closer to PvP is a positive thing IMO. The more PvE feel like PvP, the more you have to be tactical/smart in the fight.

> > > > Not having permanent application of Retaliation/Torment/Confusion is right, but it shouldn't be excluded from PvE.

> > > > I would have some monsters block, dodge, have Aegis, have real cooldown on their ability so Chilled/Weakness become useful counters.

> > >

> > > Most of us who play PVE alot do so because we dont like PVP and how it works, and the toxicity of it. id rather not have it be like PVP at all. So no, IMO its a terrible idea.

> >

> > Why would you want PvE to be just about dps on a punching bag ?

>

> Because it fun for some to feel strong.. But that said why do you people always make everything black or white in this forum, you know full well what people are asking but you and others continually shoebox everything said.

> > @"Asenath.8694" said:

> > This entire thread boils down to casuals vs. wanna-be elitists. This is the sort of thing that makes WoW's community an acidic pit of piranhas, and the fact that this mechanic has this effect on how people communicate says quite enough about it in and of itself.

>

> That seems to be a running theme through this whole forums.. Its like this everywhere, its really tiresome to even type here and i believe a group here does it on purpose to attack anything they feel is outside of their little hardcore communities.. Funnily it in the long run is whats helping to end the games populations over time.

 

Plenty of white/grey named mobs you can kill if you want to feel strong mate.