Pistol whip spam thieves

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"Asuran.5469" said:

 

> > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

> >

>

> No they don't. Bull's Charge has evade frame before the stun lands, not at the same time. BC also doesn't allow the Warrior to teleport at you instantly with a JI like effect while it's happening.

>

> Mirage Cloak is an effect that combos with any effect it wants, which highly regarded as the most broken class effect in the game for many reasons. There are scores of full forum pages & threads discussing why this mechanic should be removed from the game completely.

>

> Arcane Shield? What? No. It's just a precast shield. This is hardly a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spammable every 2s to 3s.

>

> Signet of Stone what? It's a 40s CD 3s invuln. This is not a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spamable every 2s to 3s.

 

I'm not invested in this argument anymore, but read my premise again.

 

> > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

 

My opinion on that hasn't changed. **Many classes can press buttons to negate damage while they're still attacking**, and thief seems to be the only one punished for it, even when that damage negation results in an animation lock for the thief that can be exploited by cc at the end of the move or before it comes out.

 

Push to nerf what you want. Just be careful that your rationale doesn't fail to make sense if it is applied to any other mechanic that leads to the same situation in a skirmish.

 

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Asuran.5469" said:

>

> > > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

> > >

> >

> > No they don't. Bull's Charge has evade frame before the stun lands, not at the same time. BC also doesn't allow the Warrior to teleport at you instantly with a JI like effect while it's happening.

> >

> > Mirage Cloak is an effect that combos with any effect it wants, which highly regarded as the most broken class effect in the game for many reasons. There are scores of full forum pages & threads discussing why this mechanic should be removed from the game completely.

> >

> > Arcane Shield? What? No. It's just a precast shield. This is hardly a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spammable every 2s to 3s.

> >

> > Signet of Stone what? It's a 40s CD 3s invuln. This is not a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spamable every 2s to 3s.

>

> I'm not invested in this argument anymore, but read my premise again.

>

> > > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

>

> My opinion on that hasn't changed. **Many classes can press buttons to negate damage while they're still attacking**, and thief seems to be the only one punished for it, even when that damage negation results in an animation lock for the thief that can be exploited by cc at the end of the move or before it comes out.

>

> Push to nerf what you want. Just be careful that your rationale doesn't fail to make sense if it is applied to any other mechanic that leads to the same situation in a skirmish.

>

 

**Mumbling** "ejwir gjjgrhhph psiimrmm zemoph...I need to find my pistolwhip..... JUSTICE!

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> **Mumbling** "ejwir gjjgrhhph psiimrmm zemoph...I need to find my pistolwhip..... JUSTICE!

 

lmfao

I can't believe you've done this.

 

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"Dantheman.3589" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > Anet should make a true OP thief build.

> >

> > Steal oneshots you and takes 10 copper from your wallet.

> >

> > Cleansing conditions applied by the thief apply additional condi instead.

> >

> > Striking a thief has a base 25% chance for evade because we are just that agile.

> >

> > PW thief OP? Erhm...can I suggest not standing in one spot with only one hand on your controls?

>

> I actually like this idea. Gw2 has pve and pvp but are totally separated maybe we can implement this somehow or at least in wvw

 

A Zerg if thieves... would work like irl banks then.

 

 

[Leonidrex.5649]

At the end of the day it boils down to the fact that thief can dodge propably around 40 times during 2minute fight.

so TECHNICALLY thief can dodge everything, its frustrating to fight a guy that you have to somehow find an opening into, and when you do its propably not going to do anything.

From power mirage perspective, i can land maybe 4-6 bursts during 1-2min duel. in that time thief has a passive that will auto save them once, daggerstorm. and 30+ evades.

I have 2 Hard CC, thief can remove stuns 3 times, so those are useless unless they are on CD from previous fights or he wastes them.

You have to put yourself in danger to land a lucky burst, that gets negated by passive, then you have to find another opening in the 10% window you have, while also having theif missplay massively.

realistically you wont dodge everything, and everyone makes mistakes. its hard to balance a class around them HAVING to make mistakes.

If you could make 100% perfect bot with 0ms reaction time, the bot would never die too many evades and too much things going their way.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> At the end of the day it boils down to the fact that thief can dodge propably around 40 times during 2minute fight.

> so TECHNICALLY thief can dodge everything, its frustrating to fight a guy that you have to somehow find an opening into, and when you do its propably not going to do anything.

> From power mirage perspective, i can land maybe 4-6 bursts during 1-2min duel. in that time thief has a passive that will auto save them once, daggerstorm. and 30+ evades.

> I have 2 Hard CC, thief can remove stuns 3 times, so those are useless unless they are on CD from previous fights or he wastes them.

> You have to put yourself in danger to land a lucky burst, that gets negated by passive, then you have to find another opening in the 10% window you have, while also having theif missplay massively.

> realistically you wont dodge everything, and everyone makes mistakes. its hard to balance a class around them HAVING to make mistakes.

> If you could make 100% perfect bot with 0ms reaction time, the bot would never die too many evades and too much things going their way.

 

Thief can dodge everything lmao yeah cuz thieves dont run out of dodges? 40 times in 2 mins? Nice! C'mon these are getting silly. Theif has one more dodge than everyone else with DD and the same dodges on core and de as everyone else and other classes have evade frames to,let's not over exaggerate here.

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> At the end of the day it boils down to the fact that thief can dodge propably around 40 times during 2minute fight.

> so TECHNICALLY thief can dodge everything, its frustrating to fight a guy that you have to somehow find an opening into, and when you do its propably not going to do anything.

> From power mirage perspective, i can land maybe 4-6 bursts during 1-2min duel. in that time thief has a passive that will auto save them once, daggerstorm. and 30+ evades.

> I have 2 Hard CC, thief can remove stuns 3 times, so those are useless unless they are on CD from previous fights or he wastes them.

> You have to put yourself in danger to land a lucky burst, that gets negated by passive, then you have to find another opening in the 10% window you have, while also having theif missplay massively.

> realistically you wont dodge everything, and everyone makes mistakes. its hard to balance a class around them HAVING to make mistakes.

> If you could make 100% perfect bot with 0ms reaction time, the bot would never die too many evades and too much things going their way.

 

I don't think anyone disagrees that Anet missed that stupid passive stunbreak proc and it should definitely be removed/changed somehow.

 

Edit: Although it does compete with Swindler's Equilibrium...

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > At the end of the day it boils down to the fact that thief can dodge propably around 40 times during 2minute fight.

> > so TECHNICALLY thief can dodge everything, its frustrating to fight a guy that you have to somehow find an opening into, and when you do its propably not going to do anything.

> > From power mirage perspective, i can land maybe 4-6 bursts during 1-2min duel. in that time thief has a passive that will auto save them once, daggerstorm. and 30+ evades.

> > I have 2 Hard CC, thief can remove stuns 3 times, so those are useless unless they are on CD from previous fights or he wastes them.

> > You have to put yourself in danger to land a lucky burst, that gets negated by passive, then you have to find another opening in the 10% window you have, while also having theif missplay massively.

> > realistically you wont dodge everything, and everyone makes mistakes. its hard to balance a class around them HAVING to make mistakes.

> > If you could make 100% perfect bot with 0ms reaction time, the bot would never die too many evades and too much things going their way.

>

> Thief can dodge everything lmao yeah cuz thieves dont run out of dodges? 40 times in 2 mins? Nice! C'mon these are getting silly. Theif has one more dodge than everyone else with DD and the same dodges on core and de as everyone else and other classes have evade frames to,let's not over exaggerate here.

 

you missed the point completely im afraid.

example

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Disabling_Shot_(thief_short_bow_skill) 4 ini. evade.

in 2min fight thief regains 120 ini, thus can dodge 30 times. that does even count withdraw, daggerstorms, shadowstep, roll for ini and many others.

hell thief can dodge more then 15 times back to back

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Most thief builds cant dodge 15 times back to back so...

Dd has more evades than other builds with staff but has downsides and that isnt every thief build.

Not all thieves use roll for ini.

Other classes have evade frames in skills, they have CD's and thief global resource and both have positives and negatives.

My core do build definitely cant evade 15 times back to back especially while doing anything of significance.

[Curennos.9307]

If thief has so many evades, I can't help but wondering why aren't they the top side noders? Sure, lots of stuff look ridiculously strong when you math out x times in some amount of minutes, but it does little to explain the current state of the game.

 

if thieves have so many evades, why are they still relegated to roaming/+1/decap? Sword still hasn't morphed into a side noding build like staff did. The build floating around seems to take Acro, too, but still is still counted as a roamer.

 

Also super interested in hearing how people think initiative works. Everyone **is** aware that ini is a once-resource-consumed-by-all-skills, right? Why aren't there immortal PW thieves perma-evading on nodes?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

Oh also.

 

If Pistol Whip is going to be nerfed because you think it's cheese, **revealed across the board needs to be nerfed as well.**

 

You cannot punish thief stealth damage mitigation and evade damage mitigation at the same time. **Pick one, or the other.** Either they get to stealth more freely, or you wait 1 second to interrupt. If evading for 1.25 seconds per cast is cheese, then so is being able to disable a class's defense with a button, or by touching them while they're attempting to use it, especially when they have traits that rely on stealth being unbroken to benefit them. If PW spam is brainless, then so is gaze of darkness, sic'em, magebane tether, Justice Spear, and lock on.

[XECOR.2814]

> @"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

> > @"Asuran.5469" said:

>

> > > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

> > >

> >

> > No they don't. Bull's Charge has evade frame before the stun lands, not at the same time. BC also doesn't allow the Warrior to teleport at you instantly with a JI like effect while it's happening.

> >

> > Mirage Cloak is an effect that combos with any effect it wants, which highly regarded as the most broken class effect in the game for many reasons. There are scores of full forum pages & threads discussing why this mechanic should be removed from the game completely.

> >

> > Arcane Shield? What? No. It's just a precast shield. This is hardly a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spammable every 2s to 3s.

> >

> > Signet of Stone what? It's a 40s CD 3s invuln. This is not a single attack skill that deals damage, evasion, and CC, and is spamable every 2s to 3s.

>

> I'm not invested in this argument anymore, but read my premise again.

>

> > > The game is chock-full of skill combinations that lets classes deal hard CC while not taking damage, and most of them can move large distances on top of that. Be careful when you're arguing that a skill that allows both shouldn't exist. Bulls Charge, Mirage cloak, and combinations made with Arcane Shield and Signet of stone all fit that bill.

>

> My opinion on that hasn't changed. **Many classes can press buttons to negate damage while they're still attacking**, and thief seems to be the only one punished for it, even when that damage negation results in an animation lock for the thief that can be exploited by cc at the end of the move or before it comes out.

>

> Push to nerf what you want. Just be careful that your rationale doesn't fail to make sense if it is applied to any other mechanic that leads to the same situation in a skirmish.

>

 

Literally no class can spam damage while negating damage except mirage and thief. Stop the bs

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> If thief has so many evades, I can't help but wondering why aren't they the top side noders? Sure, lots of stuff look ridiculously strong when you math out x times in some amount of minutes, but it does little to explain the current state of the game.

>

> if thieves have so many evades, why are they still relegated to roaming/+1/decap? Sword still hasn't morphed into a side noding build like staff did. The build floating around seems to take Acro, too, but still is still counted as a roamer.

>

> Also super interested in hearing how people think initiative works. Everyone **is** aware that ini is a once-resource-consumed-by-all-skills, right? Why aren't there immortal PW thieves perma-evading on nodes?

 

becouse other builds lose some evade frames, and mobility and in turn get more healing.

And thus are better suited for sidenoding.

Name a class that can eve come close to thiefs absurd level of mobility ?

[Highlie.7641]

"we need to remove the evade from pistol whip", then it will function like Fist fury... so basically you want it deleted? as that skill is never used

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > If thief has so many evades, I can't help but wondering why aren't they the top side noders? Sure, lots of stuff look ridiculously strong when you math out x times in some amount of minutes, but it does little to explain the current state of the game.

> >

> > if thieves have so many evades, why are they still relegated to roaming/+1/decap? Sword still hasn't morphed into a side noding build like staff did. The build floating around seems to take Acro, too, but still is still counted as a roamer.

> >

> > Also super interested in hearing how people think initiative works. Everyone **is** aware that ini is a once-resource-consumed-by-all-skills, right? Why aren't there immortal PW thieves perma-evading on nodes?

>

> becouse other builds lose some evade frames, and mobility and in turn get more healing.

> And thus are better suited for sidenoding.

> Name a class that can eve come close to thiefs absurd level of mobility ?

 

Basically all the other roamer classes do a pretty good job, why do you ask?

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > If thief has so many evades, I can't help but wondering why aren't they the top side noders? Sure, lots of stuff look ridiculously strong when you math out x times in some amount of minutes, but it does little to explain the current state of the game.

> > >

> > > if thieves have so many evades, why are they still relegated to roaming/+1/decap? Sword still hasn't morphed into a side noding build like staff did. The build floating around seems to take Acro, too, but still is still counted as a roamer.

> > >

> > > Also super interested in hearing how people think initiative works. Everyone **is** aware that ini is a once-resource-consumed-by-all-skills, right? Why aren't there immortal PW thieves perma-evading on nodes?

> >

> > becouse other builds lose some evade frames, and mobility and in turn get more healing.

> > And thus are better suited for sidenoding.

> > Name a class that can eve come close to thiefs absurd level of mobility ?

>

> Basically all the other roamer classes do a pretty good job, why do you ask?

 

becouse thief has built in mobility.

1 not having to switch weapons during duels to reset cooldowns = SB offhand for mobility.

all utilities that are good provide also mobility

( roll for ini, shadowstep, withdraw, daggerstorm )

Acro gives perma swiftness ( in and out of combat )

Peoples " dueling PW thief " build still has

600 range steal

900 range sword 2

900 range SB 5

Dash on dodge

Permanent swiftness

Roll for ini and withdraw all provide dashes too.

Dagger storm gives movespeed.

Thief can NEVER be allowed to 1v1, becouse all their good utilities have shit ton of mobility.

Ini mechanic is a bad design.

 

Ill give you example from Cmirage.

You could use sword/pistol + staff for example. And enjoy mobility from sword ambushes for rotation.

But losing scepter means HEAVY damage loses. You have a choice, damage+range from scepter, mobility+CC from sword or mobility+damage+bugs and clunkyness from axe. There is a choice.

Thief takes 1 fight set and SB becouse gotta be sanic. No choice, no sacrafice.

 

[Curennos.9307]

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > If thief has so many evades, I can't help but wondering why aren't they the top side noders? Sure, lots of stuff look ridiculously strong when you math out x times in some amount of minutes, but it does little to explain the current state of the game.

> > > >

> > > > if thieves have so many evades, why are they still relegated to roaming/+1/decap? Sword still hasn't morphed into a side noding build like staff did. The build floating around seems to take Acro, too, but still is still counted as a roamer.

> > > >

> > > > Also super interested in hearing how people think initiative works. Everyone **is** aware that ini is a once-resource-consumed-by-all-skills, right? Why aren't there immortal PW thieves perma-evading on nodes?

> > >

> > > becouse other builds lose some evade frames, and mobility and in turn get more healing.

> > > And thus are better suited for sidenoding.

> > > Name a class that can eve come close to thiefs absurd level of mobility ?

> >

> > Basically all the other roamer classes do a pretty good job, why do you ask?

>

> becouse thief has built in mobility.

> 1 not having to switch weapons during duels to reset cooldowns = SB offhand for mobility.

> all utilities that are good provide also mobility

> ( roll for ini, shadowstep, withdraw, daggerstorm )

> Acro gives perma swiftness ( in and out of combat )

> Peoples " dueling PW thief " build still has

> 600 range steal

> 900 range sword 2

> 900 range SB 5

> Dash on dodge

> Permanent swiftness

> Roll for ini and withdraw all provide dashes too.

> Dagger storm gives movespeed.

> Thief can NEVER be allowed to 1v1, becouse all their good utilities have kitten ton of mobility.

> Ini mechanic is a bad design.

>

> Ill give you example from Cmirage.

> You could use sword/pistol + staff for example. And enjoy mobility from sword ambushes for rotation.

> But losing scepter means HEAVY damage loses. You have a choice, damage+range from scepter, mobility+CC from sword or mobility+damage+bugs and clunkyness from axe. There is a choice.

> Thief takes 1 fight set and SB becouse gotta be sanic. No choice, no sacrafice.

>

 

I'm interested in creating a thief sidenoder build to use regardless of the shortbow/x meta. What weapon do you suggest I run instead of shortbow?

 

Edit: Actually, give me a bit, gotta deal with Christmas stuff but I'm gonna plop down a post of everything I find wrong with thieves and why pistol whip is (mostly) fine.

[Leonidrex.5649]

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> > > > > @"Curennos.9307" said:

> > > > > If thief has so many evades, I can't help but wondering why aren't they the top side noders? Sure, lots of stuff look ridiculously strong when you math out x times in some amount of minutes, but it does little to explain the current state of the game.

> > > > >

> > > > > if thieves have so many evades, why are they still relegated to roaming/+1/decap? Sword still hasn't morphed into a side noding build like staff did. The build floating around seems to take Acro, too, but still is still counted as a roamer.

> > > > >

> > > > > Also super interested in hearing how people think initiative works. Everyone **is** aware that ini is a once-resource-consumed-by-all-skills, right? Why aren't there immortal PW thieves perma-evading on nodes?

> > > >

> > > > becouse other builds lose some evade frames, and mobility and in turn get more healing.

> > > > And thus are better suited for sidenoding.

> > > > Name a class that can eve come close to thiefs absurd level of mobility ?

> > >

> > > Basically all the other roamer classes do a pretty good job, why do you ask?

> >

> > becouse thief has built in mobility.

> > 1 not having to switch weapons during duels to reset cooldowns = SB offhand for mobility.

> > all utilities that are good provide also mobility

> > ( roll for ini, shadowstep, withdraw, daggerstorm )

> > Acro gives perma swiftness ( in and out of combat )

> > Peoples " dueling PW thief " build still has

> > 600 range steal

> > 900 range sword 2

> > 900 range SB 5

> > Dash on dodge

> > Permanent swiftness

> > Roll for ini and withdraw all provide dashes too.

> > Dagger storm gives movespeed.

> > Thief can NEVER be allowed to 1v1, becouse all their good utilities have kitten ton of mobility.

> > Ini mechanic is a bad design.

> >

> > Ill give you example from Cmirage.

> > You could use sword/pistol + staff for example. And enjoy mobility from sword ambushes for rotation.

> > But losing scepter means HEAVY damage loses. You have a choice, damage+range from scepter, mobility+CC from sword or mobility+damage+bugs and clunkyness from axe. There is a choice.

> > Thief takes 1 fight set and SB becouse gotta be sanic. No choice, no sacrafice.

> >

>

> I'm interested in creating a thief sidenoder build to use regardless of the shortbow/x meta. What weapon do you suggest I run instead of shortbow?

>

> Edit: Actually, give me a bit, gotta deal with Christmas stuff but I'm gonna plop down a post of everything I find wrong with thieves and why pistol whip is (mostly) fine.

 

This is what i mean, all thiefs weapons are the same.

Revolve around spamming dodge ability.

For staff its vault or roll ( now only vault )

D/D its the bleeding flip

S/D its unblockable 3

D/P its pistol whip.

Its all the same, thief needs a new DIFFERENT weapon from the rest.

[Elxdark.9702]

this is the thief curse, 3 spam.

 

No matter the build or weapon set you always end up spamming 3 as your main source of dps, that's how the class was designed not sure if intended and with the exception being d/p. Also Daredevil makes it even more spammy with more dodges.

Pistol whip will probably receive a damage nerf then it will be split into 2 skills like they did with LS.

 

But imo I think the real problem is Escapist's Fortitude, for some reason anet thought merging the condi cleanse x dodge trait with heal x dodge would make a fair trade for daredevil but obviously it is not, this also was an issue with staff staff thief as well.

 

I'd like to split the trait again but tbh I think it just needs a cd increase, between 3-5 seconds would be fine, I think with that and a damage nerf to pw would be enough.

 

I personally don't really mind thieves running this and I can agree that the build is not exactly hard to play but if I have to choose between this and condi thief I would pick up this any day.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Elxdark.9702" said:

> this is the thief curse, 3 spam.

>

> No matter the build or weapon set you always end up spamming 3 as your main source of dps, that's how the class was designed not sure if intended and with the exception being d/p. Also Daredevil makes it even more spammy with more dodges.

> Pistol whip will probably receive a damage nerf then it will be split into 2 skills like they did with LS.

>

> But imo I think the real problem is Escapist's Fortitude, for some reason anet thought merging the condi cleanse x dodge trait with heal x dodge would make a fair trade for daredevil but obviously it is not, this also was an issue with staff staff thief as well.

>

> I'd like to split the trait again but tbh I think it just needs a cd increase, between 3-5 seconds would be fine, I think with that and a damage nerf to pw would be enough.

>

> I personally don't really mind thieves running this and I can agree that the build is not exactly hard to play but if I have to choose between this and condi thief I would pick up this any day.

 

Its like this cuz in anets infinite wisdom loaded only one skill on each set with viable damage and gave the rest of the skills pitiful damage so instead of having multiple options for damage u get one yet other classes have cc etc built into their weapon kits as well as damage spread THROUGHOUT.

[Curennos.9307]

Okay. Let's get this done.

 

**First up, the Initiative system and thief defenses**.

>! I like ini. It's a unique system I would hate to see go away. That said, I won't deny that it's hard to balance.

>!

>! For now, tho, I'll just go over some stuff.

>!

>! Initiative is, how to say...weapon-skill-side. It's not that thief doesn't have cooldowns on weapon skills - rather, they have a 'pool' of pre-cooldown to draw from that regenerates at a certain rate, and ALL weapon skills on both bars draw from the same pool. For most classes, using weapon skill #2 does not mean you are suddenly unable to cast your other skills. Each cooldown on each skill is separate, with weapon swap preventing you from accessing all weapon skills whenever they might be off cooldown.

>!

>! For the thief, every skill you cast impacts every other skill. Every pistol whip draws from the same resource as your infiltrator's strike, headshot, or black powder. Using black powder means you have less resources to use pistol whip. Using headshot means less pistol whips. Using shortbow#5 means there's less ini available for other skills. The thief can be mobile, stealth, dodge, what have you - but all these things draw from the same pool. Stealthing on DP requires Black Powder -> Heartseeker, granting stealth but leaving less ini for damage or the capabilities of their other weapon.

>!

>! It's also very important to note this because using a DEFENSIVE skill/sequence (Black Powder -> heartseeker) means there's less for damage, whereas a warrior using their shield block is just...blocking. Or using gs#3 is evading - that doesn't exactly take away damage potential. Ultimately, everything takes from everything on a thief.

>!

>! And, of course, this means thief has pretty good burst because it can use the same skill several times in a row as a result of starting things out with its ini pool filled. This creates a rise and fall in its fighting - bursting, then doing something that lets it survive until ini regenerates, and then back to it. It also lets the thief burst in other ways - a movement skill can be used multiple times to let the thief rotate very fast (in combination with other stuff, like swiftness access, but let's move on).

>!

>! This is how thief gets around and defends itself. Thief has extremely limited healing, both 'burst' healing and over time. There's no Protection, high health pool, or stability access that lets them avoid CC -> burst. Thief life revolves around stealth (positioning), mobility, and evades/cover condis. I mean cover condis in the sense that they can apply weakness on engage to protect against immediate retaliation - best example is dp's blind on #3, which protects their engagement. Kinda goes back to engage/disengage potential. ANYWHO.

>!

>! This results in a system where the thief's primary means of defense does...several things people may take issue with. For one, thief defense SCALES, to a certain degree. A warrior's health pool is static - a thief's evade doesn't particularly care how many incoming attacks there are. It could be an auto attack, 10k damage, or 100k damage. On the other hand, when the thief isn't evading, they've got effectively zilch.

>!

>! Then there's stealth (and I'm going to put engage/disengage potential/mobility in here too). All these things let the thief reposition - alleviating incoming pressure by creating a...psuedo evade, so to speak. It's not that their opponent is attacking them and missing - it's that their means of attacking are limited/gone. Can't hit something you can't see (Though you can predict and try anyway!), and can't hit something that's just plain 'ol out of range or behind a wall.

>!

>! Honorable mention - interrupts. Not exactly evading or having an incoming attack miss, but disrupting the attack. Headshot, daze on steal, and so on. This defense does NOT scale in the slightest and is very target-specific. Interrupting a charging warrior does zilcho to the ranger about to smash your face in. There is, however, a difference in defense that doesn't scale because it effects the opponent (like interrupts) and a defense that doesn't scale because it effects you (flat healing).

>!

>! Ultimately, thief ends up in a situation where its defenses revolve around mechanics that have certain niche uses outside of combat due to how GW2 pvp is designed. Rotation, +1-ing. THe engage-disengage/mobility potential of their skills allows fight resets, or sneaking up on an opponent already engaged in combat, helping an ally finish them off, then quickly leaving again.

>!

>! In an ideal world, thief would only have a chance to kill their opponent when they dedicated ALL their resources to kiling their enemy, giving up disengage potential for kill power. That would be, I think, pretty even - if they run away, they kind of lose the fight. If they don't run away, they have an opportunity to kill but could also end up dead. Leaving should also give their opponent equal opportunity to recover should the thief re-engage the fight - re-engaging should have appropriate risk each time, otherwise we end up with the wvw scenario where a DE can try to 1-shot you as many times as they like but retaliation is extremely limited to almost nonexistant. In an ideal world, a perfectly even duel between a thief and one of the classes that doesn't have the disengage potential would have the thief forced to retreat and re-engage multiple times - aka, the thief would lose the node. I do not think this is the case in the current state of the game.

>!

>! As a side note, ini is why thief has...weird skills, where you see some used a lot, some barely used, and things like Black Powder that are very niche and/or see more out of combat use (Black powder + shortbow for team stealth \o/) than in combat. Because giving thief two damage skills just doesn't work. One will be better than the other, and because they both draw from the same resource pool one will always be used over the other. There have to be major differences between the skills for it to work - like the diff between pistol whip and cluster bomb.

 

**What thief doesn't have**

>! Imma take a moment to point out all the things thief doesn't have. Generally, that is...as excepetions are exceptions, not the rule. For one, thief doesn't have flat out sustain that lets it sit in one spot for extended periods of time. They WILL have to retreat to recover.

>! Protection/defensive boons. Other than specific niches/skills I'll be going into, thief doesn't have prot, can't possibly build enough healing power to benefit from regeneration, doesn't have the burliness to stay in one place long enough to actually benefit from regeneration, and doesn't have...my next point....

>! Thief doesn't have the health pool to benefit from other kinds of defensive mechanics as much.

>!

 

 

**Second up, Trickery and the issues it causes with Steal**

>! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/659581121943568394/unknown.png

>! Here is mark's tooltip info with trickery and deadly arts.

>!

>! https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/170805715013730304/659581331767951418/unknown.png

>! Here is mark's tooltip info without trickery but with deadly arts.

>!

>! For the time being, let's pretend that's steal/swipe. I'm lazy, so sue me, you know the differences.

>!

>! Bear with me, this relates to pistol whip.

>!

>! WIthout trickery, steal/swipe/etc is...an instant cast gap closer that might apply poison (Deadly arts - and several other condis via procs, like weakness) and/or stealth. And gives stolen skills if it lands. WIthout trickery, that's all it does. Without trickery, steal is...just okay.

>!

>! With trickery, steal turns from an instant gap closer with a relatively minor class specific mechanic(*I'll get to that later!) into an absolutely monstrous thing. With trickery, steal gives boons (always important), dazes, and steals boons. This turns steal into a near-uncounterable interrupt - the daze is also long enough that it provides a decent amount of 'cover' for the thief when they enter melee range. WIthout the interrupt, the thief would end up in melee range and be immediately vulnerable. With the daze, they have enough time to do more stuff and 'get things going', so to speak. Lastly, the boon rip ensures the interrupt basically can't be countered. You will be interrupted, end of. The extra sustain you get from using steal combined with the lower cooldown of the skill is also nice.

>!

>! Essentially, combining Steal with skills gives the properties of steal to those skills. In this case, pistol whip - pistol whip combined with steal means that your opponent will have no stability to counter pistol whip's stun that locks them into damage. However, it isn't just steal - it's steal + the full trickery traitline + a skill stacked together.

>!

>! Lastly, there's the 1 sec daze. Headshot has a 1/4 sec daze and functions only as an interrupt. the 1 sec daze trait allows the thief a lot of...leeway when stealing - it serves as the opposite of an immob. Where immob allows basically everything but dodging, daze prevents everything but dodging. This not only interrupts, but prevents a quicker counterattack. Don't get me wrong, interrupts are cool - but they should be interrupts, not psuedo-stuns.

 

**The relatively minor class mechanic**

>! Stolen skills, woo! Let's be honest, they're pretty screwed up. It's absolutely ridiculous that stealing from a mesmer gives you a heckton of boons, including quickness, stability, and resistance. However, I'd like to focus in on quickness and take a moment to note that a lot of problems are QUICKNESS problems. Quickness causing a problem that wouldn't be there without quickness, and this-or-that skill is actually fine. It also seems like thief crutches on the stolen skills in specific matchups, and in others there..isn't much use. And for some elite specs, the stolen skill is juse there to give a smol bonus + give stealth access for malicious stealth attack. Also, take the rev stolen skill - it hits SUPER hard. Good god it can hit hard and is ranged. I would love for anet to take a look at stolen skills and even them out more. Obliterating mesmers because that stolen skill just happens to give me a ton of quickness is a bad feeling. But getting a pretty shitty stolen skill in comparison isn't so nice, either.

>!

>! Also, why isn't the stolen skill in a thief vs thief matchup something that applies reveal in a short aoe so you can have that extra minigame in mirror matchups? Instead of boring 'ol extra stealth.

 

**Moving on - what ISN'T the problem**

>! For one, the instant nature of steal. Steal is instant. It does not change the cast times of other skills. In fact, combining steal/swipe with pistol whip on the DrD build makes it extremely predictable - because guess what that thief who's hanging back a little bit and seems to be wriggling at the air despite that he's out of range is about to do? You guessed it, he's very, very obviously about to try and nail you with a steal + pistol whip, but PW still has it's cast time. Steal just gets him back in range and ensues the stun (and thus the damage) lands if you don't happen to dodge.

>!

>! For two, the daze on steal. The synergy with Trickery is powerful, but provides counterplay to other classes layering protection over extremely important casts, like mercy rez, rezzes in general protected by CC, etc. Very specific wording here - the DAZE isn't the problem. I'm going to revisit this in a few paragraphs.

>!

>! Thief's mobility/stealth/what-have-you. Moving around is fine when the thief is lacking in other defenses. The nature of the ini system - everything drawing from one pool - forces a certain level of balance.

>!

>! Pistol whip isn't the problem. Oh, I'm sure someone could math out a few reasons why it's damage should be adjusted or the stun duration could be changed or the cast time could be, or, or...but, really. For a class that is very vulnerable to getting KO'd or close to it when not evading, 3/4 sec cast time is a biiiig vulnerability, as are the vuln frames at the end. Someone compared thief's 3/4 cast time to necro's 3/4 cast times on staff, which I think highlights my point here despite what they may or may not have intended. A class built around absorbing attacks and has effectively two health bars has cast times on its skills. One of the squishiest classes in the game has the SAME cast time plus extra vulnerability on a skill.

 

**What IS the problem?**

>! For one...visibility. I think the argument could be made that PW's animation is a little too easily missed. Personally, I think it's fine, but I want to acknowledge this PoV - thief in general, I've found, has less visual clutter than other classes. Nice in some ways, perhaps not so nice in others. The visual clutter on other classes also definitely needs tuning. WHenever I use shroud on my necro, I - as the necro - can barely see a damn thing because of how the shroud skill visuals tint all the other colors. Reaper has that massive whatsit swinging about...it's just a mess tbh. However, that isn't really a thief issue.

>!

>! Two, the LENGTH of of the daze-on-steal in Trickery. It's way too long - shortening it to 1/2 or even 1/4 will suffice to maintain its primary usage while trimming the fat a little bit. Infiltrator's Strike combined with the daze serves as a powerful psuedo-stun. The immob from Infil Strike lets the thief land Swipe very, very easily (or lets 'em know to save it until the end of a dodge) by denying dodge, and Swipe applies a daze that denies...everything else. For a brief moment, the thief's opponent is not stunned, but might as well be, and nothing (stability is probably stripped) but an evade or invuln would've done anything.

>!

>! Everybody else. Yep, not kidding. Power creep, basically. You know the drill on this one. Thief has some stuff that is okay in the current meta, but would definitely need a shave if other stuff was brought down. Damage going down makes thief tankier, and so on and so forth.

>!

>! The niche-iness/shittiness of thief's other skills. Black Powder really just...makes me sad. It's possible - but relatively hard - to get it to provide sufficient defense against a melee class. This results in more power than usual getting shunted into other skills.

>!

>! The reliance on Trickery. A lot of power is focused into boons and boonstrip atm. Thief has been reliant on Trickery for years, and builds that don't run it tend to be the sort that take a lot of effort to make work, but are just...memes. See the KO builds that run stuff like crit strikes/shadow arts and can 1-shot someone every 30 sec if they aren't paying attention but are otherwise useless.

>!

>! Sources of quickness. This is a quickness problem, not a pistol whip problem. Hell, even auto attacks become a much bigger threat w/quickness. However, anet seems to be aware of this - aren't they removing Sigil of Agility, for ex? And toning down other sources. Having a thief stall on bow, then wep swap for quickness into a brutally fast PW + Swipe should never have been a thing.

>!

>! The cooldown on Swipe/steal in particular might be getting a bit too low, especially when combined with Swindler's Equilibrium. The cross-traitline synergy is very powerful - Swipe coming off CD more often means more dazes, more boons, and more boonrips/opportunities to have a guaranteed interrupt, and so on. See also Endurance Thief combined with it basically being a mistake on the thief's part if they ever miss Swipe, because it's instant and they really shouldn't.

>!

>! And the biggest one, imo - the retreat portion of Infiltrator's Strike. It's cheap (cheaper than the engage part, even), fast (1/4 sec cast), long range (up to 1200). A quick ambush-like engage is fine. Thief is actually very vulnerable on its engage - a weakness currently covered with some amount of ease by the length of the daze on steal/swipe, but that aside. There are multiple ways to go about fixing this - for example, there's currently no punishment for missing the engage attack. Anet could add a smidge more of delay on Infiltrator's Strike, add a punishment if they miss (more costly retreat), etc. They could also just do...flat stuff, like increasing the cost of the retreat, tightening the range, lowing the length of time the retreat is available, etc. THat's a whole 'nother discussion tho. Anyway, it boils down to...The cost to running away is less than the cost to engage. Heck, the cost as a whole is pretty low.

>!

>! Next, anet has weird ideas about trait design. Basically some traits are dumb - like Escapist's Fortitude. Cleanse is fine. Heal is fine. Together that is not fine. EF is objectively the best trait available - there's no competition amongst the choices. The thief also only has to evade once every 5 sec to have perma Vigor if taking Acro. It's mind bogglingly easy to maintain a very strong boon - not even going into the vigor attached to Trickery's Bountiful Theft. Mind, I'm more concerned with...tightening certain things up. Feline Grace combined with Bountiful Theft gives thief way, way too much vigor. I'm fine with thief having perma-vigor in combat, but it should take at least a little bit of attention on the player's part. Currently, managing to strip vigor will only see it repplied near instantly.

>!

>! On the other hand, anet also has really weird ideas about trait design going in the other direction. Unnerfing/boosting certain traits would make things a bit more...even. Kind of a restatatement, but anet's balancing ends up shoving a lot of power into a small number of places. It makes things wonky in a lot of ways I don't really want to go into here (aka they also don't undo nerfs that are no longer needed - rip d/p AA)

>!

>! And, lastly - kind of - but anet misses obvious stuff. Like DrD's Weakening Strikes trait. I imagine they intended this trait to cover the thief going offensive after a dodge, but...why does the effect last so long? Why does it basically do EVERYTHING - defense and add more dmg to weakened foes?

 

TLDR

>! Your understanding of thief is incomplete. The ini system/your whole 'thief has built in mobility'/'doesn't have to switch weps to reset CDs'...these things are both benefits and drawbacks, which even out. It seems like you only see the benfeits, but not the drawbacks. Thief has problems - not gonna deny that. But I think you're focusing way too much on the symptom, not the cause.

>!

>! Ultimately, I think Shadowstep (the utility skill) is an excellent representation of this whole thing. It stunbreaks, has massive range, and cleanses on return. However, you only get the cleanse if you use the return (so you're not running away), has a long cooldown (ensures period of 'oh he doesn't have this resource and is vulnerable'). It is very much a one or the other skill - you can use it to not die and continue a fight/continue to contest a node (via the stunbreak, gapcloser, kiting, cleanse) or you can use it to run away. But not both.

>!

>! I have little to no beef with pistol whip. I find the issue to not be PW, but the ease with which Infiltrator's Strike lets the thief engage and disengage combined with several parts of the Trickery traitline and some other bits of powercreep. Disengaging on DP cost a utility or Black Powder + Heartseerk, and probably a dodge. Disengaging on sword costs...2 ini.

>!

>! Also - I did skip some stuff, specifically some niche/exceptions. I do dislike that Flanking Strike and the follow up are both unblockable. I wish Daggerstorm would die horribly and thief could get more options in elite skills (which is basically an issue with every single class), but this post is long enough already.

>! Lastly - thief has none of the benefits of weapon swap but all of the drawbacks. If thief swaps weps with zero ini..they've still got zero ini and can't use any skills. Weapon swap could be removed from thief and not much would change. Also yes, shortbow5 mobility is a problem in the sense that it probably should be an f-skill and not a weapon skill. But eh.

 

@"Leonidrex.5649"

[saerni.2584]

Thief just needs to have a regular amount of initiative and then balance around that.

 

Everything else is secondary.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Curennos.9307" the truth of the matter is, there is no benyfit to having 2 " fight " weapon sets.

So every thief has SB as default.

That + perma swiftness throught acro OR dash means that NO MATTER the build you try and make you will ALWAYS be the most mobile of any class.

Even bunker staff/staff had insane mobility.

To fix the issue I THINK, thief needs across the board nerfs and buffs.

Might generation, vulnerability, fury has to shoved into different sets so rotating between them thief can have fury/might at the expense of losing SB.

Another thing could be making INI gain on weapon swap a baseline thing + lowering ini gain. For example 8ini/10s but you get 3-4 on weapon swap. But i suspect it would screw with peoples memory and just serve to annoy them.

Lets face it, INI as mechanic is fundamentaly stupid. Its made for spamming the same ability that fits what needs to be done.

 

Traits like this could be made.

Attacks while wielding sword main hand generates might a fury -> x cooldown

Attacks while wielding dagger main hand applies fury and vulnerability for - y seperate cooldown, you get benyfits from switching between sword/dagger -> you could make dueling generating might fury -> infis stab kind of playstyle. But one can dream, dont think devs will try to make anything work.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

> @"XECOR.2814" said:

> Literally no class can spam damage while negating damage except mirage and thief. Stop the bs

 

That's not the exact argument I was making. I said a large amount of other classes have moves that negate damage and still allow them to attack, and that is true.

 

Ranger with Signet of Stone, Soulbeast with either Smoke Assault or Unflinching fortitude

Warrior with endure pain, and GS 3

Ele with obsidian flesh

Renegade with Unrelenting Assault.

 

And all those classes either get to move or choose any action they want while they evade or otherwise ignore damage. They also all have larger HP pools. If you choose to stand in pistol whip when the stun doesn't even lock you into all of it, and call that spam, that's another argument entirely; however largely people have learned to play around the classes that can ignore strikes while doing theirs, and most of them can stick to you to boot. It makes no sense to single out thief for also doing this, when its version is more punishable and more avoidable. by nature.

 

> @"Leonidrex.5649" said:

> Traits like this could be made.

> Attacks while wielding sword main hand generates might a fury -> x cooldown

> Attacks while wielding dagger main hand applies fury and vulnerability for - y seperate cooldown, you get benyfits from switching between sword/dagger -> you could make dueling generating might fury -> infis stab kind of playstyle. But one can dream, dont think devs will try to make anything work.

 

If the devs want to rebalance thieves so we can sidenode without being relegated to decap duty or having to overrely on stealth (which people also hate and want deleted), fine by me. As long as the class rewards skillful play and isn't made unviable again, it's whatever.

 

I'm not into this outrage over a move that has utility, but is telegraphed and punishable with just baseline awareness though. It would be much easier to just expect people to know how to interrupt, or play around a telegraphed move than it would be to rework the entirety of thief because they don't want to.

 

The only class mains that get a free pass to complain about this are Necro and their derivatives. Every other class has a mechanic or mitigating skill pool that's even better, and some of those classes can also press a button indiscriminately to disable stealth or react to the pistol whip after the stun hits them and take no damage from the follow up.

 

 

[Lich King.1524]

it has to be a normal way to counter play them, if no then need to nerf them a a bit