Barnesy.5839 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 The new patch has nerfed damage. The new patch has nerfed healing/sustain. The new patch has **not** nerfed your max HP. It's going to take longer to kill players. I think this is a fantastic move in the right direction. At it's core, GW2 has great combat mechanics. The thing which has let down GW2 PVP in the past, has not been it's core mechanics, but rather the tuning of skills. Slowing combat down allows time for meaningful gameplay and counterplay. Slowing combat down allows time for GW2's great combat mechanics to shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 If the new patch nerfs damage and also nerfs healing/sustain how is that not a net zero gain? Just wondering about the reasoning there. The patch still makes it sound like a thief can stealth and unload everything he's got on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > If the new patch nerfs damage and also nerfs healing/sustain how is that not a net zero gain? > > Just wondering about the reasoning there. The patch still makes it sound like a thief can stealth and unload everything he's got on you. Because HP pools were not nerfed/lowered + not only dmg was nerfed but Cooldowns of high dmg skills were nerfed too, it will take more hits over a longer period of time to do the same dmg that is now doable in few seconds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AliamRationem.5172 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I honestly don't understand the TTK argument. Between skilled players in a duel even using glass builds it's still a chess match. Both players possess the raw damage to destroy the other in the blink of an eye, but good luck landing that damage when your opponent is as good as you are. He's going to defend and try to apply counter-pressure, and you're going to be forced to do the same. Am I crazy that I don't see a problem here? I'm not saying this is the end of the world. It's too big a change to know how it'll play out, and I very much hope my concerns are unfounded. But the fact is, if I love PvP in the current meta and have been playing the game mode more than I have in a long time, where is the gain in turning everything on its head for a player like myself? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > I honestly don't understand the TTK argument. Between skilled players in a duel even using glass builds it's still a chess match. Both players possess the raw damage to destroy the other in the blink of an eye, but good luck landing that damage when your opponent is as good as you are. He's going to defend and try to apply counter-pressure, and you're going to be forced to do the same. > > Am I crazy that I don't see a problem here? I'm not saying this is the end of the world. It's too big a change to know how it'll play out, and I very much hope my concerns are unfounded. But the fact is, if I love PvP in the current meta and have been playing the game mode more than I have in a long time, where is the gain in turning everything on its head for a player like myself? Same thing in WvW. The other day we saw a spellbreaker and soulbeast having a duel, both where going at each other and when either got some damage in their hp was back at 100% in ~2-4s, continously. I've seen people fight - and had fights - for 1-2+ minutes. Yet when a thief backstabs a glass, everybody goes nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I don't disagree with the general damage nerf but the things that weren't nerfed are damage mitigation and fight resetting. knights amulet + protection/ weakness + mobility is going to be the new side node time waster and its going to be annoying to have to chase people down all game. hope i'm wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnesy.5839 Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > I don't disagree with the general damage nerf but the things that weren't nerfed are damage mitigation I don't think you're fully contemplating the consequences of nerfing damage mitigation. If you nerf damage AND you nerf damage mitigation, then those two changes cancel each other out. (I.e. enemies deal less damage with attacks, but you take more damage because you have weaker defences) If you nerf healing, damage and mitigation, then the damage and mitigation nerfs will cancel each other out, and all you're left with is a healing nerf. A net result healing nerf would cause people to die even faster than what currently occurs. That would make the game even more 1-shot focused. That is the exact opposite of promoting meaningful gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > I honestly don't understand the TTK argument. Between skilled players in a duel even using glass builds it's still a chess match. Both players possess the raw damage to destroy the other in the blink of an eye, but good luck landing that damage when your opponent is as good as you are. He's going to defend and try to apply counter-pressure, and you're going to be forced to do the same. > > Am I crazy that I don't see a problem here? I'm not saying this is the end of the world. It's too big a change to know how it'll play out, and I very much hope my concerns are unfounded. But the fact is, if I love PvP in the current meta and have been playing the game mode more than I have in a long time, where is the gain in turning everything on its head for a player like myself? The problem isnt that there arent close duels or teamfights with current balance, but that the low ttk removes enough counterplay to make the game seem unfair and frustrating since a tiny mistake can result in a player dying instantly. Gw2 isnt a fps where you just need to be good at aiming and learn the map. In gw2 there is a huge amount of class and ability knowledge that players need to have to be effective at fighting other classes and builds. If you have short ttk as well, you are creating a huge skill ceiling that casual and new players will never be able to understand. Additionally low ttk makes build counters even more effective at shutting down respective builds, which again removes a lot of potential counterplay and strategy. Its a rare situation to be in a fight where everyone is equally skilled, and no one hard counters the opponents build. Lowering ttk, if done properly, gives players more opportunities to react to different situations, and gives the more skilled player a better chance of outplaying their hard counters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Barnesy.5839" said: > The new patch has nerfed damage. The new patch has nerfed healing/sustain. The new patch has **not** nerfed your max HP. > > It's going to take longer to kill players. > > I think this is a fantastic move in the right direction. At it's core, GW2 has great combat mechanics. The thing which has let down GW2 PVP in the past, has not been it's core mechanics, but rather the tuning of skills. Slowing combat down allows time for meaningful gameplay and counterplay. Slowing combat down allows time for GW2's great combat mechanics to shine. ~~Toxic Instant Kill - ~~ Toxic Stealth  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Barnesy.5839" said: > The new patch has nerfed damage. The new patch has nerfed healing/sustain. The new patch has **not** nerfed your max HP. > > It's going to take longer to kill players. > > I think this is a fantastic move in the right direction. At it's core, GW2 has great combat mechanics. The thing which has let down GW2 PVP in the past, has not been it's core mechanics, but rather the tuning of skills. Slowing combat down allows time for meaningful gameplay and counterplay. Slowing combat down allows time for GW2's great combat mechanics to shine. Except that with all hard CCs dealing no damage, and all of the classes that can't avoid having hard CCs on their kits, are going to be losing like 25% or more of their Kit damage output, in addition to the hard damage nerfs on other non CC skills. People aren't quite noticing this yet. There is a lot more damage loss with this patch that it looks like. And this isn't even to mention the loss in quickness access an boon duration intra-class wide. <- That alone is an enormous loss in damage. Now we're talking actual big damage cuts to every skill in general, and then all hard CCs going to no damage output? **My dudes, there is A LOT more damage going away than people are quite yet realizing.** The meta is going to be overly sustainy, mark my words. And now with elongated CDs and situations where people want to maintain DPS instead of use CCs that deal no damage, they'll get stuck in skill rotations where everything is on CD except their hard CCs and auto attack, so we'll be doing a lot of auto attacking spamming in the near future. I don't know man. I'm down to try new things and support Arenanet, but this 0 damage hard CC stuff has got to be stopped before it happens. -50% damage to all current hard CC damage would suffice and be a safe move, whereas lowering all of that stuff to 0 damage output..... that's just not going to pan out well. I really don't think it will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psycoprophet.8107 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > If the new patch nerfs damage and also nerfs healing/sustain how is that not a net zero gain? > > Just wondering about the reasoning there. The patch still makes it sound like a thief can stealth and unload everything he's got on you. Hp pool is staying the same while burst damage is getting gutted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Barnesy.5839" said: > > The new patch has nerfed damage. The new patch has nerfed healing/sustain. The new patch has **not** nerfed your max HP. > > > > It's going to take longer to kill players. > > > > I think this is a fantastic move in the right direction. At it's core, GW2 has great combat mechanics. The thing which has let down GW2 PVP in the past, has not been it's core mechanics, but rather the tuning of skills. Slowing combat down allows time for meaningful gameplay and counterplay. Slowing combat down allows time for GW2's great combat mechanics to shine. > > Except that with all hard CCs dealing no damage, and all of the classes that can't avoid having hard CCs on their kits, are going to be losing like 25% or more of their Kit damage output, in addition to the hard damage nerfs on other non CC skills. People aren't quite noticing this yet. There is a lot more damage loss with this patch that it looks like. And this isn't even to mention the loss in quickness access an boon duration intra-class wide. <- That alone is an enormous loss in damage. Now we're talking actual big damage cuts to every skill in general, and then all hard CCs going to no damage output? **My dudes, there is A LOT more damage going away than people are quite yet realizing.** > > The meta is going to be overly sustainy, mark my words. And now with elongated CDs and situations where people want to maintain DPS instead of use CCs that deal no damage, they'll get stuck in skill rotations where everything is on CD except their hard CCs and auto attack, so we'll be doing a lot of auto attacking spamming in the near future. > > I don't know man. I'm down to try new things and support Arenanet, but this 0 damage hard CC stuff has got to be stopped before it happens. -50% damage to all current hard CC damage would suffice and be a safe move, whereas lowering all of that stuff to 0 damage output..... that's just not going to pan out well. I really don't think it will. Trevor, you and I and others know better than this. As i said earlier; we've all been here before. Here is the next step after everything gets settled with; release of new sigils, new runes and new variant of damages including new ingredient intakes to compensate the loss --soon in no time we will be here all over again -- It's Simple Marketing Strategy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Barnesy.5839" said: > snips the damage mitigation i'm talking about are from trait or skill specific buffs, not protection or armor. so while damage and healing were nerfed, but mitigation remaining the same, its pretty logical to assume anything with mitigation post patch will be strong. we will have to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnesy.5839 Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > its pretty logical to assume anything with mitigation post patch will be strong. That's actually not how damage mitigation works in GW2. There is no ability in GW2 which reduces the damage you take by a flat amount. All damage mitigation in GW2 whether passive or active simply lowers your damage received a **percentage**. It has the exact same result whether people are doing 100% damage or 67% damage. If there were abilities which reduced damage by a flat amount, then your assumption would be correct. For example, imagine the warrior had a trait which said "you take 200 less damage from attacks". Suppose the warrior gets hit for 350 damage, the trait would reduce that damage down to 150 damage. 350 base damage - 200 mitigation = 150 final damage Now Imagine that 350 damage was nerfed by 33%, which would reduce it to 235 damage (350 * 0.67 = 235). 235 base damage - 200 mitigation = 35 final damage Notice that by nerfing the initial damage by 33%, it reduces the final damage by over 4 times (200 final damage -> 35 final damage). If an ability like this existed in GW2, then damage mitigation would become more powerful as damage was nerfed. However none such exists. Because all damage mitigation in GW2 is percentage based, it is equally powerful whether people deal 100% damage or 67% damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Barnesy.5839" said: > snips I don't know why you're going off on flat amounts and percentages, I know how damage mitigation works in this game. I also know that damage + heal nerf makes things equal more or less but mitigation remaining the same is an overall sustain buff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barnesy.5839 Posted February 1, 2020 Author Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said: > I don't know why you're going off on flat amounts and percentages, I know how damage mitigation works in this game. I also know that damage + heal nerf makes things equal more or less but mitigation remaining the same is an overall sustain buff. Your two sentences contradict each other. If you know how damage mitigation works in GW2, then you'll know that it's all percentage based and you'll know that percentage based mitigation has the exact same effect whether you nerf damage/healing or not. I'm not interested in continuing an argument, I'd suggest for you to reconsider your viewpoint, because you're quite mistaken. I'll leave you with a very simple example: Imagine a player has an ability which gives 100% damage mitigation which lasts for 2s on a 10s cooldown (the 100% damage mitigation could be from invulnerability, evasion, blocking, whatever you want it doesn't matter). That ability makes the player exactly 25% harder to kill (10/8 = 1.25). That player is 25% harder to kill regardless of how much incoming damage they are receiving. That player could be receiving 1000 incoming DPS or they could be receiving 666.67 incoming DPS. Whether the player is receiving 1000 DPS or whether that incoming DPS has been nerfed by 33%, that defensive ability will always make the player 25% harder to kill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Barnesy.5839" said: > > > The new patch has nerfed damage. The new patch has nerfed healing/sustain. The new patch has **not** nerfed your max HP. > > > > > > It's going to take longer to kill players. > > > > > > I think this is a fantastic move in the right direction. At it's core, GW2 has great combat mechanics. The thing which has let down GW2 PVP in the past, has not been it's core mechanics, but rather the tuning of skills. Slowing combat down allows time for meaningful gameplay and counterplay. Slowing combat down allows time for GW2's great combat mechanics to shine. > > > > Except that with all hard CCs dealing no damage, and all of the classes that can't avoid having hard CCs on their kits, are going to be losing like 25% or more of their Kit damage output, in addition to the hard damage nerfs on other non CC skills. People aren't quite noticing this yet. There is a lot more damage loss with this patch that it looks like. And this isn't even to mention the loss in quickness access an boon duration intra-class wide. <- That alone is an enormous loss in damage. Now we're talking actual big damage cuts to every skill in general, and then all hard CCs going to no damage output? **My dudes, there is A LOT more damage going away than people are quite yet realizing.** > > > > The meta is going to be overly sustainy, mark my words. And now with elongated CDs and situations where people want to maintain DPS instead of use CCs that deal no damage, they'll get stuck in skill rotations where everything is on CD except their hard CCs and auto attack, so we'll be doing a lot of auto attacking spamming in the near future. > > > > I don't know man. I'm down to try new things and support Arenanet, but this 0 damage hard CC stuff has got to be stopped before it happens. -50% damage to all current hard CC damage would suffice and be a safe move, whereas lowering all of that stuff to 0 damage output..... that's just not going to pan out well. I really don't think it will. > > > It's Simple Marketing Strategy Yup I just wish their model wasn't so upheaving & weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"Barnesy.5839" said: > percentage based mitigation has the exact same effect whether you nerf damage/healing or not. I never stated otherwise. what you fail to realize is that mitigation in any form is a secondary form of sustain, and some of these forms (like weakness) are very powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyPuppy.8970 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 I'm pretty sure we'll still be able to see bursty specs that can down you in no time regardless of your toughness/hp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted February 1, 2020 Share Posted February 1, 2020 > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > I'm pretty sure we'll still be able to see bursty specs that can down you in no time regardless of your toughness/hp. +1 Exactly this, that is why i say it is all an illusion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blimm.5028 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > I'm pretty sure we'll still be able to see bursty specs that can down you in no time regardless of your toughness/hp. > > +1 > > Exactly this, that is why i say it is all an illusion I wouldn't say it's all an illusion. 100 to 0 specs will probably still be a thing, but they won't have as much overkill damage. This means it's easier to punish them/if you punish them, they suffer more. They won't have 150% of your health bar in raw damage to dish out. Still enough to kill you, but they'll lose enough that countering part of their rotation means more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kialb.2098 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > If the new patch nerfs damage and also nerfs healing/sustain how is that not a net zero gain? > > Just wondering about the reasoning there. The patch still makes it sound like a thief can stealth and unload everything he's got on you. use ur brain, u will understand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swagg.9236 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 A lot of the healing skills, however, only received cooldown nerfs. Things like, Healing Turret (a skill renowned for being a near full-heal for Engineers), has only been nerfed from a 20s CD to a 30s CD. What this means is that watching a target's HP explode from sub-25% back to nearly 100% is going to be even more excruciating now that it takes players longer to die; and this also means that the healing skills didn't really get nerfed in the long-run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
otto.5684 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > I honestly don't understand the TTK argument. Between skilled players in a duel even using glass builds it's still a chess match. Both players possess the raw damage to destroy the other in the blink of an eye, but good luck landing that damage when your opponent is as good as you are. He's going to defend and try to apply counter-pressure, and you're going to be forced to do the same. > > > > Am I crazy that I don't see a problem here? I'm not saying this is the end of the world. It's too big a change to know how it'll play out, and I very much hope my concerns are unfounded. But the fact is, if I love PvP in the current meta and have been playing the game mode more than I have in a long time, where is the gain in turning everything on its head for a player like myself? > > The problem isnt that there arent close duels or teamfights with current balance, but that the low ttk removes enough counterplay to make the game seem unfair and frustrating since a tiny mistake can result in a player dying instantly. Gw2 isnt a fps where you just need to be good at aiming and learn the map. In gw2 there is a huge amount of class and ability knowledge that players need to have to be effective at fighting other classes and builds. If you have short ttk as well, you are creating a huge skill ceiling that casual and new players will never be able to understand. Additionally low ttk makes build counters even more effective at shutting down respective builds, which again removes a lot of potential counterplay and strategy. Its a rare situation to be in a fight where everyone is equally skilled, and no one hard counters the opponents build. Lowering ttk, if done properly, gives players more opportunities to react to different situations, and gives the more skilled player a better chance of outplaying their hard counters. Lowering TTK by 10-15% would have worked. Lowering TTK by 30-40% is dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradoxoglanis.1904 Posted February 2, 2020 Share Posted February 2, 2020 > @"otto.5684" said: > > @"Paradoxoglanis.1904" said: > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said: > > > I honestly don't understand the TTK argument. Between skilled players in a duel even using glass builds it's still a chess match. Both players possess the raw damage to destroy the other in the blink of an eye, but good luck landing that damage when your opponent is as good as you are. He's going to defend and try to apply counter-pressure, and you're going to be forced to do the same. > > > > > > Am I crazy that I don't see a problem here? I'm not saying this is the end of the world. It's too big a change to know how it'll play out, and I very much hope my concerns are unfounded. But the fact is, if I love PvP in the current meta and have been playing the game mode more than I have in a long time, where is the gain in turning everything on its head for a player like myself? > > > > The problem isnt that there arent close duels or teamfights with current balance, but that the low ttk removes enough counterplay to make the game seem unfair and frustrating since a tiny mistake can result in a player dying instantly. Gw2 isnt a fps where you just need to be good at aiming and learn the map. In gw2 there is a huge amount of class and ability knowledge that players need to have to be effective at fighting other classes and builds. If you have short ttk as well, you are creating a huge skill ceiling that casual and new players will never be able to understand. Additionally low ttk makes build counters even more effective at shutting down respective builds, which again removes a lot of potential counterplay and strategy. Its a rare situation to be in a fight where everyone is equally skilled, and no one hard counters the opponents build. Lowering ttk, if done properly, gives players more opportunities to react to different situations, and gives the more skilled player a better chance of outplaying their hard counters. > > Lowering TTK by 10-15% would have worked. Lowering TTK by 30-40% is dumb. Yes, too much damage reduction would be a bad thing which is why it needs to be done properly, but it remains to be seen how much is too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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