Math.5123 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Firebrand was clearly over-performing in many areas. Small scale attrition fights being the one it REALLY shined in. Symbolbrand, before yesterdays patch was extremely dominant in both 1v1 situations and teamfights as well. The core of the issue was, and has always been the big symbols. As if you hadn't learned this from Scourge. Having ticking damage covering an entire node is extremely toxic by design, but you've done **nothing** to alleviate that issue. You've just nuked the rest of the spec into oblivion while retaining the toxic core design of symbols. "Restoring Reprieve (Mantra of Solace): Reduced base heal from 997 to 199 in PvP and WvW. Reduced healing coefficient from 0.25 to 0.1 in PvP and WvW." Guardian has historically had VERY bad healing skills. Everything from Shelter, to Signet to Litany. And by the looks of the patch you want Guardians to move away from the Honor trait-line (and big symbols) because that's the build where the nerfs seem to be targeted. But all you've done is making Honor mandatory for the heal on Aegis proc (Pure of Heart). Wouldn't it be better if you touched the "passive" sustain instead of the active one? Stuff like heal on dodge, heal on aegis, heal on symbols (by reducing base but increase scaling so you have to go mender to get value from it). "Protector's Restoration: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only." This, once again further forces you to go Writ of Persistence (big symbols) for the extra ticks. As un-traited, it's currently 2 seconds of protection on a 30 second cooldown. You could literally revert every single one of yesterdays nerf, remove big symbols (and symbol duration) and Symbolbrand would not see play. That was you wouldn't have decimated the chance for any other FB build to emerge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 https://imgur.com/gallery/DUXVYgv Seems fixed amirite? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GewRoo.4172 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > Firebrand was clearly over-performing in many areas. Small scale attrition fights being the one it REALLY shined in. > > Symbolbrand, before yesterdays patch was extremely dominant in both 1v1 situations and teamfights as well. The core of the issue was, and has always been the big symbols. As if you hadn't learned this from Scourge. > > Having ticking damage covering an entire node is extremely toxic by design, but you've done **nothing** to alleviate that issue. You've just nuked the rest of the spec into oblivion while retaining the toxic core design of symbols. > > "Restoring Reprieve (Mantra of Solace): Reduced base heal from 997 to 199 in PvP and WvW. Reduced healing coefficient from 0.25 to 0.1 in PvP and WvW." > > Guardian has historically had VERY bad healing skills. Everything from Shelter, to Signet to Litany. And by the looks of the patch you want Guardians to move away from the Honor trait-line (and big symbols) because that's the build where the nerfs seem to be targeted. But all you've done is making Honor mandatory for the heal on Aegis proc (Pure of Heart). > > Wouldn't it be better if you touched the "passive" sustain instead of the active one? Stuff like heal on dodge, heal on aegis, heal on symbols (by reducing base but increase scaling so you have to go mender to get value from it). > > "Protector's Restoration: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds in PvP only." > > This, once again further forces you to go Writ of Persistence (big symbols) for the extra ticks. As un-traited, it's currently 2 seconds of protection on a 30 second cooldown. > > You could literally revert every single one of yesterdays nerf, remove big symbols (and symbol duration) and Symbolbrand would not see play. That was you wouldn't have decimated the chance for any other FB build to emerge. > Regarding the recent changes you have some valid points imo but I would like to mention that there are core and DH builds which rely on Symbols without overperforming. I have no idea how to fix FB without hurting othe builds but gutting Symbols as such cannot be a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stand The Wall.6987 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 its pretty much zeal and low cd mantras, maybe renewed focus resetting tomes. mantra heal getting butchered is sad but funny. but mostly sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthernRedStar.3054 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Good riddance. Firebrand ruled the game for way too long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safandula.8723 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 If Firebrand healing is that bad, why is it meta in wvw and in 2v2? (didnt play conquest a bit so idk about that) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arken.3725 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 Hit the nail on the noggin with this topic if you ask me. Granted, if they went through with the suggested changes on symbols FB would likely not see the light of day, it would have fixed(band aid) the oppressive issue at hand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 5, 2020 Share Posted March 5, 2020 regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burnfall.9573 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? > > this? > No it wasn't the trap thing the floor had glowing cracks on it that was spinning does dmg its firebrand. The floor had symbols on it i think and white cracks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? > > > > this? > > > > No it wasn't the trap thing the floor had glowing cracks on it that was spinning does dmg its firebrand. > > The floor had symbols on it i think and white cracks. > It's Justice passive after 5 hits from anything, Firebrands also get to keep that passive even after using the tomes if they trait for it and it can be also improved to 3 hits in a small radius, but that's not the problem. Duration and intensity are, recent nerfs Searing Fissure of Revenant was nerfed so hard, it does the same damage as the passive, a freaking passive for comparison gives you an idea of how overtuned it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? > > > > > > this? > > > > > > > No it wasn't the trap thing the floor had glowing cracks on it that was spinning does dmg its firebrand. > > > > The floor had symbols on it i think and white cracks. > > > > It's Justice passive after 5 hits from anything, Firebrands also get to keep that passive even after using the tomes if they trait for it and it can be also improved to 3 hits in a small radius, but that's not the problem. Duration and intensity are, recent nerfs Searing Fissure of Revenant was nerfed so hard, it does the same damage as the passive, a freaking passive for comparison gives you an idea of how overtuned it is. This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? > > > > > > this? > > > > > > > No it wasn't the trap thing the floor had glowing cracks on it that was spinning does dmg its firebrand. > > > > The floor had symbols on it i think and white cracks. > > > > It's Justice passive after 5 hits from anything, Firebrands also get to keep that passive even after using the tomes if they trait for it and it can be also improved to 3 hits in a small radius, but that's not the problem. Duration and intensity are, recent nerfs Searing Fissure of Revenant was nerfed so hard, it does the same damage as the passive, a freaking passive for comparison gives you an idea of how overtuned it is. Searing Fissue nerfed so hard? I don't agree. One initial stack of burn (out of several) from that skill is doing 5s less duration. Often times due to condition removal that extra 5 seconds will not be missed. However, I agree that it's still worse than Firebrand's passive in full swing. I think it would've be a pretty easy trade off to slap on Firebrand to trade in their passive virtues for expanded active ones. Maybe it doesn't make sense right now but I agree with @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" and @"Arken.3725" that while effective, the recent changes could have been done more intelligently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shao.7236 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? > > > > > > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > No it wasn't the trap thing the floor had glowing cracks on it that was spinning does dmg its firebrand. > > > > > > The floor had symbols on it i think and white cracks. > > > > > > > It's Justice passive after 5 hits from anything, Firebrands also get to keep that passive even after using the tomes if they trait for it and it can be also improved to 3 hits in a small radius, but that's not the problem. Duration and intensity are, recent nerfs Searing Fissure of Revenant was nerfed so hard, it does the same damage as the passive, a freaking passive for comparison gives you an idea of how overtuned it is. > > Searing Fissue nerfed so hard? I don't agree. One initial stack of burn (out of several) from that skill is doing 5s less duration. Often times due to condition removal that extra 5 seconds will not be missed. However, I agree that it's still worse than Firebrand's passive in full swing. > > I think it would've be a pretty easy trade off to slap on Firebrand to trade in their passive virtues for expanded active ones. Maybe it doesn't make sense right now but I agree with @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" and @"Arken.3725" that while effective, the recent changes could have been done more intelligently. Back then Searing Fissure was 4k for 4 seconds or so with expertise and almost no afterburn damage, after this nerf having it at 10 seconds while still about 3k burning and have less on the afterburn again was one way to nerf it as it gives a lot more time to think, then they nerf it again by just straight up taking away 5 seconds without touching damage at about 1.5k damage total per initial hit and the after burn be also the same. So now unless anyone stands in the AoE, the skills is extremely weak in comparison to Chilling Isolation that can hit up to 5k easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaith.8256 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Shao.7236" said: > > @"Chaith.8256" said: > > > @"Shao.7236" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"Burnfall.9573" said: > > > > > > regarding symbolbrand what is that floor thing that symbol firebrands put on the floor that does burst dmg? > > > > > > > > > > this? > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it wasn't the trap thing the floor had glowing cracks on it that was spinning does dmg its firebrand. > > > > > > > > The floor had symbols on it i think and white cracks. > > > > > > > > > > It's Justice passive after 5 hits from anything, Firebrands also get to keep that passive even after using the tomes if they trait for it and it can be also improved to 3 hits in a small radius, but that's not the problem. Duration and intensity are, recent nerfs Searing Fissure of Revenant was nerfed so hard, it does the same damage as the passive, a freaking passive for comparison gives you an idea of how overtuned it is. > > > > Searing Fissue nerfed so hard? I don't agree. One initial stack of burn (out of several) from that skill is doing 5s less duration. Often times due to condition removal that extra 5 seconds will not be missed. However, I agree that it's still worse than Firebrand's passive in full swing. > > > > I think it would've be a pretty easy trade off to slap on Firebrand to trade in their passive virtues for expanded active ones. Maybe it doesn't make sense right now but I agree with @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" and @"Arken.3725" that while effective, the recent changes could have been done more intelligently. > > Back then Searing Fissure was 4k for 4 seconds or so with expertise and almost no afterburn damage, after this nerf having it at 10 seconds while still about 3k burning and have less on the afterburn again was one way to nerf it as it gives a lot more time to think, then they nerf it again by just straight up taking away 5 seconds without touching damage at about 1.5k damage total per initial hit and the after burn be also the same. So now unless anyone stands in the AoE, the skills is extremely weak in comparison to Chilling Isolation that can hit up to 5k easy. Unless anyone stands in the AoE, yes. Or you make them stand in it with multiple tools in the Revenant kit to do just that. Call to Anguish inside Searing Fissure is a staple. Edit: Just wanna end the thought by saying that Condi Rev is a very good & fairly diverse playstyle. It has more going for it than most specs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 Persisting aoes in a gamemode where the main pvp mode is capture the point has always been bad. Theres so many skills anet needs to change to make this less problematic and guardian is only part of it. But honestly, the sustain needed a nerf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GewRoo.4172 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Safandula.8723" said: > If Firebrand healing is that bad, why is it meta in wvw and in 2v2? (didnt play conquest a bit so idk about that) Firebrand was never support meta bc of its single target or AoE healing skills (Tempest for example is a better pick for that) but for its ability to spam a variety of important boons, especially Aegis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanAlcedo.3281 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Safandula.8723" said: > If Firebrand healing is that bad, why is it meta in wvw and in 2v2? (didnt play conquest a bit so idk about that) Its Meta in WvW because its the only support class in the game that gives stab. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 I-m just trying to learn what the attacks are so i can read up on avoiding it and ask you guys. The searing fissure looks a lot like the ele move on fire elemental thing its scepter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Safandula.8723 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"GewRoo.4172" said: > > @"Safandula.8723" said: > > If Firebrand healing is that bad, why is it meta in wvw and in 2v2? (didnt play conquest a bit so idk about that) > > Firebrand was never support meta bc of its single target or AoE healing skills (Tempest for example is a better pick for that) but for its ability to spam a variety of important boons, especially Aegis. exactly thats the point. it has ok healing, and spam almost all boons all around. u cant have it all, thats why they nerf it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 I got another question to you guys who are guardian mains: Is trapper guard a thing anymore? I mean I keep hearing it was nerfed but how is it holding up now? I don't see many of those trappers when I duel in mist, just curious is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawdler.8521 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > The core of the issue was, and has always been the big symbols. Meanwhile WvW commanders for years: **"I'M GONNA KITTEN KICK ANYONE USING BIG SYMBOLS FROM THE SQUAD!"** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > The core of the issue was, and has always been the big symbols. > > Meanwhile WvW commanders for years: **"I'M GONNA KITTEN KICK ANYONE USING BIG SYMBOLS FROM THE SQUAD!"** PvP =/= wvw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArlAlt.1630 Posted March 6, 2020 Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > The core of the issue was, and has always been the big symbols. > > > > Meanwhile WvW commanders for years: **"I'M GONNA KITTEN KICK ANYONE USING BIG SYMBOLS FROM THE SQUAD!"** > > PvP =/= wvw Still more relevant than your usual posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted March 6, 2020 Author Share Posted March 6, 2020 > @"ArlAlt.1630" said: > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > > > The core of the issue was, and has always been the big symbols. > > > > > > Meanwhile WvW commanders for years: **"I'M GONNA KITTEN KICK ANYONE USING BIG SYMBOLS FROM THE SQUAD!"** > > > > PvP =/= wvw > > Still more relevant than your usual posts. Like what? Give me an example, I'm all pins and needles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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