Unless you delete firebrand, the gamemode will end

[dikkejonko.5803]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> I agree with support firebrand being overtuned but burn Firebrand? That burn damage sure hurts with minstrel gear. FBs can run burn but they can't really heal unless they're doing some weird celestia meme.

>

> You guys are dying to burn core guard/dh.... should probably learn what you're being killed by.

>

> Even if we delete Firebrand, there will still be condis and burns. They'll be even worse. And no, nobody wants your snowflake build in squad still.

 

firebrand just applies too many burns consistantly during the whole fight, it's stupid. burn is too strong too be applied like it's bleeding

[Blocki.4931]

Seriously your idea of what diversity of classes means is so skewed you probably wouldn't even complain if some were removed entirely.

 

Everything is played and used. Some are just inherently better than others. Firebrand is a wonderful stab and heal support, but it needs other classes to make it shine. That means you have at least 2, potentially 3 characters per group that are focused on being a supporter with their OWN strength, together. That is a huge improvement.

[ArchonWing.9480]

> @"dikkejonko.5803" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > I agree with support firebrand being overtuned but burn Firebrand? That burn damage sure hurts with minstrel gear. FBs can run burn but they can't really heal unless they're doing some weird celestia meme.

> >

> > You guys are dying to burn core guard/dh.... should probably learn what you're being killed by.

> >

> > Even if we delete Firebrand, there will still be condis and burns. They'll be even worse. And no, nobody wants your snowflake build in squad still.

>

> firebrand just applies too many burns consistantly during the whole fight, it's stupid. burn is too strong too be applied like it's bleeding

 

You mean they provide Aegis for your party.

[Klypto.1703]

> @"Arctisavange.7261" said:

> Less stability = more pirateship gameplay.

> More stability = more melee gameplay.

>

> Facts from a dude whose playing this game since launch:

>

> Players HATE playing via pirateship.

> Players LOVE playing melee gameplay.

>

> Unpopular fact:

>

> WvW isnt orientated on roaming. Its orientated around large scale combat as the game mode itself means Mass Scale Player vs Player - WvW.

>

>

> If you can not understand the concept on why there is a special stability share class needed against 50 shades of boon corruption and crowd control skills that makes any sort of melee movement impossible, then dont make any more threads.

 

If you take in consideration most guild groups the only form of organized wvw left for the handful of guilds that actually still play this game mode they only make up the population of a few hours out of a day they happen to be running. So that pretty much is contradiction to your statement went roaming is key especially when your server has no coverage or organization on a large scale so it is very much roaming oriented although the deleting of roaming specs from wvw has put the final nail into the coffin though. A lot of veteran wvw players would or will play support during those peak times but after that it was the roaming classes that got things done. The whole blob mentality is just a lot of players who do not know how to play the game much less the game mode so the play anet should have made was nudge them into learning how to play against roaming specs vs just deleting them and showing them that if they whine long enough they can force them to do anything they want to. So to me not having multiple different specs I can play based on adapting to the situation is just boring to me and if people enjoy this then they can enjoy it without me but majority of the game mode are actually the ones who play support and roam so without the roamer you lose that experienced support player as well. Then you have no choice but to drown in the irony that you got what you asked for :)

[ArchonWing.9480]

WvW is definitely intended for big fights, but it is definitely ridiculous for people to suggest only blobbing matters, or is even that interesting. I suppose if one only played during those prime time hours, they'd get the idea, but I think there are a lot of veteran WvW'ers that would scoff at the idea that blobs run WvW, and small groups don't when they probably do for 80% of any given day.

[dikkejonko.5803]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > @"dikkejonko.5803" said:

> > > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > > I agree with support firebrand being overtuned but burn Firebrand? That burn damage sure hurts with minstrel gear. FBs can run burn but they can't really heal unless they're doing some weird celestia meme.

> > >

> > > You guys are dying to burn core guard/dh.... should probably learn what you're being killed by.

> > >

> > > Even if we delete Firebrand, there will still be condis and burns. They'll be even worse. And no, nobody wants your snowflake build in squad still.

> >

> > firebrand just applies too many burns consistantly during the whole fight, it's stupid. burn is too strong too be applied like it's bleeding

>

> You mean they provide Aegis for your party.

 

you mean I gain 1 stack of might for each attack I block with my shield

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

Maybe if Firebrand was only oppressively meta in one game mode rather than all of them it could be a simple case of toning down some numbers or adding some tools to other classes.

 

Currently FB can do so many things in a single build, some of its toolkit needs to be completely reassigned to other classes. For example, the tome 3 reflect bubble is excessive; there is already a utility Guard can slot for it, and other classes that bring less to a party could have had it as part of their role.

 

Alternatively, a GCD on tomes should be considered to introduce opportunity cost - tomes are far too powerful to have all 3 as a baseline part of the spec. You should have to decide between healing, supporting or damage/pulls. Note that a GCD doesn't lock you permanently into one, it just makes you pick one each time. A grandmaster trait could allow access to all 3 but do nothing else and maybe even reduce the number of charges available.

 

FB is also very low risk because almost it's entire utility bar is low cool down and instant cast. All mantras except the elite stun break could do with a 1/4 cast, again to introduce some opportunity cost. Though, that probably wouldn't be required if tomes were bought in line.

 

None of these things make an instant condi pirate ship meta, they just make firebrand have to play by the same rules as most other specs and actually have to chose between the things it can do.

 

Edit: FB aside, yes WvW needs much less hard CC.

[briggah.7910]

oh look another post about what will kill this already dead game mode that died 7 years ago (according to these forums)

[LetoII.3782]

The number of servers that field a mab blob can be counted on one hand now.

 

Maybe catering to stack and spam was a mistake, or maybe it was inevitable

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> I agree with support firebrand being overtuned but burn Firebrand? That burn damage sure hurts with minstrel gear. FBs can run burn but they can't really heal unless they're doing some weird celestia meme.

 

a mix of plaguedoctor and apothecary does fine.

[kash.9213]

Grab some of those pin snipers from that 'Sniper, No Sniping' thread and give them another target. Group up some floaters hanging around so you can Call and Alert targets, pack a bunch of stuff to open them up and make a night of it.

[subversiontwo.7501]

It's still all about stability.

 

If you want to dethrone the Firebrand all you have to do is improve the stability given by the gyro and elixir on the Scrapper, the earth trait and possibly add some stab to a shout or glyph on the Tempest or add even more stab to the Revenant. The Druid? Well, it's so far behind in everything that a simple change to an ability or trait won't really be enough, even with the recent elite-ressing and cleanse spamming builds. Personally I also prefer it more in its (new-old-) ranged support role than competing directly with the frontline support.

 

The same thing goes there though, if they want to make it a frontline support simply add a superior amount of stability and it will be despite the clunky mechanics on everything else. Even Soulbeast could be a passable frontline class if it could use stances plus something else to achieve superior stability-share access. Mesmers have pretty good stability mechanics and allround utility so there it's more a question of making the other aspects of it competetive again (like making it's group healing or AoE damage more competetive again).

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

"Unless you delete firebrand, the gamemode will end." Oooh. So dramatic! Personally I think the plague will have a greater chance of ending the game mode than Firebrand, but that's just me.

 

D:

[Voltekka.2375]

Out of curiosity, OP, what class do you play?

[Turkeyspit.3965]

> @"GoodWithGravy.8019" said:

> Maybe if Firebrand was only oppressively meta in one game mode rather than all of them it could be a simple case of toning down some numbers or adding some tools to other classes.

>

 

Firebrand is meta in different modes for different reasons. Nerfing / giving stability to other classes won't change FBs role in fractals, nor would nerfing / giving quickness to others change FBs roles in WvW.

 

You'll note that Revenant is meta in every game mode now as well, but for very different reasons, and with different builds.

 

What a profession or build does in one game mode is irrelevant to any discussion of its performance in another.

 

[gavyne.6847]

How does the OP get 10 thumbs up? No wonder this forum is not worth reading anymore. OP talks about firebrand/necro duo like this is the PvP forum. Then goes on to complain about roaming, and quickly jumps to zerging and complains that you're useless unless you play either a firebrand or necro.

 

ps. Support Scrappers and Tempests are the real carries for cleansing & heals, Firebrand is mostly good for stab these days and stab is quite scarce post-patch.

 

pps. If you think necros do good damage, wait until you get in a guild squad running bomb kit scrappers, weavers, and burnguards. Because all these specs can make necro dps look like childs play.

[God.2708]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"ArchonWing.9480" said:

> > I agree with support firebrand being overtuned but burn Firebrand? That burn damage sure hurts with minstrel gear. FBs can run burn but they can't really heal unless they're doing some weird celestia meme.

>

> a mix of plaguedoctor and apothecary does fine.

 

The issue with doing a mix of condi + healing is that FB traits that support healing or support condi damage are in direct conflict. Likewise with utilities. You end up with a build that does 40% of the healing and 40% of the burning of your typical specialist builds, and if you need 2.5 firebrands to do what 2 firebrands can do you're doing it wrong.

[GoodWithGravy.8019]

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> Firebrand is meta in different modes for different reasons. Nerfing / giving stability to other classes won't change FBs role in fractals, nor would nerfing / giving quickness to others change FBs roles in WvW.

 

We don't want to change the roles, we want to create other viable options in those roles. Its not so much a case of why FB is meta so much as why no other options can compete. There are often other potential options for the same slots in each game mode but they don't get a look in because they typically have to invest completely in getting that one thing, leaving nothing left to compete with the extra tools that come baseline with FB, regardless of what traits or utilities it slots. This is true in every game mode.

 

All that is needed is to is to change some of the "and"s in the FB kit to "or"s. That would avoid smiter's boon-ing FB because it can still provide the core things that make it viable in each mode, but without being bloated with so many other tools it removes other classes from the picture.

 

There is also plenty good reason to add some of the tools to other classes. I mean, FB aside, why do we only have ~2 classes which can quickness share, ~2 which can alacrity share and, more importantly for WvW, only 1 class with viable stab share??? This is pointlessly restrictive to the game, especially given how key the boons are.

 

You can either hit FB hard and the whole mode loses out, or shave FB and move those capabilities elsewhere. Both things close the gap by the same amount, but only one without reducibg the tools available to your party. The aim is to balance minimising changes to FB (which does need some, is clearly still bloated), with minimising changes to the whole party, in each mode.

 

In short: Give other specs access to enough of a key tool to be viable in that role, make FBs have to chose from it's excessive extra kit to prevent it still having a monopoly.

 

> @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> You'll note that Revenant is meta in every game mode now as well, but for very different reasons, and with different builds.

 

Firstly, for Revenant it is at least on varying elite specs, rather than all on FB. Secondly, at least in WvW, Rev is meta but not a mandatory slot in every party. Also, at least in both competitive modes, Rev is also in line for a tune down.

 

Again, the problem isn't that they are meta in every mode, it is that they are such an outlier in every mode that other options for the same role are being shut out. FB has been doing this across the board since release.

 

> What a profession or build does in one game mode is irrelevant to any discussion of its performance in another.

 

Sadly, outside of tuning numbers, balance is still game wide, so it does strongly affect what changes are likely to occur. Also, it is all evidence towards whether or not the design is overturned, and why. An outlier in one game mode and role can probably be corrected by much simpler means than something that is an overperforming across the board. Like you said, nerfing stab wouldn't do anything for PvE, so we could use that information to make a better choice.

 

Ultimately I'd just like to be able to log on for WvW without knowing that if I don't go on my FB I will probably have to immediately swap. Combine that with peak hour queues and there's little point even trying to get in with another class.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

> @"God.2708" said:

> The issue with doing a mix of condi + healing is that FB traits that support healing or support condi damage are in direct conflict. Likewise with utilities. You end up with a build that does 40% of the healing and 40% of the burning of your typical specialist builds, and if you need 2.5 firebrands to do what 2 firebrands can do you're doing it wrong.

 

minstrel

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWQAYmgXAPAA-zVJYjRBfJ47s43mF-w

 

apothecary/ plaguedoctor

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWQAYmgXAPAA-zVZYRBzFFwbYlgvzifbWA-w

 

please point out the 40% difference.

[God.2708]

> @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > @"God.2708" said:

> > The issue with doing a mix of condi + healing is that FB traits that support healing or support condi damage are in direct conflict. Likewise with utilities. You end up with a build that does 40% of the healing and 40% of the burning of your typical specialist builds, and if you need 2.5 firebrands to do what 2 firebrands can do you're doing it wrong.

>

> minstrel

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWQAYmgXAPAA-zVJYjRBfJ47s43mF-w

>

> apothecary/ plaguedoctor

> http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWQAYmgXAPAA-zVZYRBzFFwbYlgvzifbWA-w

>

> please point out the 40% difference.

 

So you made a heal firebrand with 30% less boon duration (very important for firebrand) that deals... 40% condi damage of what a dedicated condi firebrand deals. I'll give you that it's actually more like 70% of a healbrand set up like that, but not if you factor in time sitting in tome 1 so you deal any sort of condi damage as time spent not supporting.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"God.2708" said:

> > @"Stand The Wall.6987" said:

> > > @"God.2708" said:

> > > The issue with doing a mix of condi + healing is that FB traits that support healing or support condi damage are in direct conflict. Likewise with utilities. You end up with a build that does 40% of the healing and 40% of the burning of your typical specialist builds, and if you need 2.5 firebrands to do what 2 firebrands can do you're doing it wrong.

> >

> > minstrel

> > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWQAYmgXAPAA-zVJYjRBfJ47s43mF-w

> >

> > apothecary/ plaguedoctor

> > http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PWQAYmgXAPAA-zVZYRBzFFwbYlgvzifbWA-w

> >

> > please point out the 40% difference.

>

> So you made a heal firebrand with 30% less boon duration (very important for firebrand) that deals... 40% condi damage of what a dedicated condi firebrand deals. I'll give you that it's actually more like 70% of a healbrand set up like that, but not if you factor in time sitting in tome 1 so you deal any sort of condi damage as time spent not supporting.

 

Not seeing shattered aegis therefore this hybrid theory-crafting is invalid.

 

D:

[Strider.7849]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> Never wished for a spec to be completely deleted as much as Firebrand....**the support is just broken** and makes the already OP necro that much worst to deal with especially when it comes in a pack of 20+. WvW was the only thing bringing me back to GW2 after the fiasco of Pvp...now the game is truly not worth playing for the first time in 8 years, was already resigned of not being able to roam anymore given how direct dmg was completely gutted...so you go and try to have at least some resemblance of fun while zerging.......I am completely useless...can't do enough dmg with zerker stats...or support/heal anybody with nomad/minstrel stats...unless I play a guardian or necro.

>

> Call me whatever you want...keep it this gem of game design

 

Have to disagree here, WvW has never been more fun - I dare say it's the best it's been since pre-hot. The toning down of damage benefited everyone by making fights last long enough that skill comes into play. I'm saying this as a glass cannon zerker roamer as well and have no issues with killing people or being killed by people.

 

I've encountered fights where there was nothing I can do to get enough damage off (one such example was against two condi firebrand supporting each other). I've also done a 1v6 a few days ago and won as well as a 2v7 that included a support firebrand, I'm sure our opponents thought we were OP too even though there was a mirror of my class within the enemy team.

 

Also, here in NA on the higher tier servers I've been seeing a mix of tempest/scrapper/firebrand supports. Can firebrand be toned down slightly more in terms of its team support, sure; but only to make room for more viable options. I think you've spent too much time away from the game and need to roam on a more sustainable build until you refamiliarize yourself with the mechanics, understand what your counters are and how to fight them, and further how to build a proper roaming build. To be fair, firebrands have little to no mobility and as a roamer yourself as well, you should be focusing primarily on your mobility/disengages first. They shouldn't be killing you at all unless you try and to facetank and fight them in a situation where they will out sustain you. If you mean fighting outnumbered, you should be utilizing strategy to engage whether that be terrain, separating the group from their support or whatever. Also necros are not OP at all. I am enjoying seeing them being able to roam now as well as playing in groups (I don't have a necro I just fight them).

 

It could also be that your build/stat spread is inefficient, I had to make a lot of adjustments after the major balance patch. Can you link your build and stat spread and I'll look over it and see if I can figure out why you're having these issues.

[Ben K.6238]

Firebrand has been in the game for just about two and a half years. If "the gamemode will end" as a result, it's sure taking its sweet time.

 

It does provide a bit more boon spam than necessary, which will hopefully be adjusted in the ongoing balance passes. But it's not insurmountable with the disenchants and corruptions that are already available.

[Sansar.1302]

Delete all support apart from self support as this game never where design to have healers or other "trinity" mechanics.

Any why not scale down heal of players in squad a bit that would make zerg busting a thing. something like - 0.5% health per person in squad would help when numbers are way to uneven

[Deeb.7638]

> @"Mizhas.8536" said:

> To be honest, Guardians have always been the backbone of any WvW setup since beta. The problem is not actually the Firebrand spec itself but the lack of other real useful support specs. Decent access to AoE stability + decent support has always been key and will probably always be. Now, deleting Firebrand would only shift the balance into bringing more revenants probably since it is the next class with easier access to AoE stability.

>

> On the other hand, Guardians, warriors, necros have been in the WvW meta from the beginning. In fact, actually you can see a lot more variety in the classes used. Engineers, revenants, elementalists and event thieves are usually present in the class composition of the WvW guilds. If only rangers and mesmers would get a little more love, they could be brought into them as well.

>

> So, there is no problem with the firebrand itself other than the need for balance against what other classes have to offer.

 

Don't know why people still underestimate the power of rangers in pretty much everything wvw pvp pve they do have easy access to aoe stability and other things with soulbeast leader of the pack trait and it makes me the mvp of every fight we do not to forget that the sustain rangers kit provides is a bit OP for a zerker build... :>