Psycoprophet.8107

Ranger- sic em and stance toned down

Necro- mobility increased via worm insta tele.slightly.scourge Condi spam dealt with,not sure how.

Thief- back stab damage reduced,stealth duration reduced or stealth on dodge changed.small over all damage buffs on core/dd weapon skills.

Holo- reduction in sustain and slight nurf to cc

Mirage- reduction in amount of Condi’s They can inflict in such little time.the ability to attack while evading should have some drawback even if it is a spec mechanic.

Guard- dh bow improved.ally restriction removed from MI

Ele- buffed to once again exist

Warrior-never played so cant comment.

I don’t play ele but iirc in the early days they were among top dps. It seems a shame that there underperforming right now cuz arenet did a good job on the visuals etc of all their skills,must have been a lot of work

They both need tuned down,holo included

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Odinens.5920" said:

> > > Just sayin....resetting is forfeiting. I don't care that you're doing it to whittle down an unskilled group. If you didn't have those mechanics would you still engage them?

> >

> > U are essentially asking players to not utilize their chosen classes and their tools that were disigned for a playstyle that u dislike or discount to their fullest to achieve the best results. A class like thief for example is not a bruiser and can’t be built like one to the degree that other classes can be so why do so? A good player knows what to expect from each class and should assume its going to be played to its strengths. U sound ridiculous that someone has to fight by ur set of rules for it to be what u consider a proper fight. There are no referees lol. If a thief tries trading blows with a holo or soulbeast and doesn’t use his tools to reset knowing the ranger or holo by design does more sustained damage and is far more durable than they are infact a bad thief player. Sry but ur way of thinking is wrong,thief would be a free bag otherwise which sounds like how u want ur battles anyway lol. I only use thief as example because it’s design is around a playstyle u say does not exist.

>

> as a thief main you dont need, or shouldnt have to "reset" you have enough kiting/disengaging tools to play around though its easier said than done vs some classes but it is what it is, sure i can run off but what have I done? given the guy a free camp/sentry and lose sight of him . in my early days is "trying to reset" the moment i do get out of combat to reset the other guy normally wp's and or runs the other way - operning the gap even more so i have to use even more resources to re engage.

I hear u,I’m just not good enough yet to fight most soulbeast,holos or even guards without backing off to regain ini and endurance. Plus I usually get to like 10% health after being hit twice with a mix of maurader and zerk gear and usually way before I’ve chipped any amount of their hp’s down due to their sustain. I use scholar runes and the zerk-valk trinkets so maybe I neet to get Gud as they say and get some more suitable runes etc lol. For right now I usually avoid most 1v1 in wvw and jump in to outnumber and help allies and run if I get to pressured lol

> @"Odinens.5920" said:

> Just sayin....resetting is forfeiting. I don't care that you're doing it to whittle down an unskilled group. If you didn't have those mechanics would you still engage them?

U are essentially asking players to not utilize their chosen classes and their tools that were disigned for a playstyle that u dislike or discount to their fullest to achieve the best results. A class like thief for example is not a bruiser and can’t be built like one to the degree that other classes can be so why do so? A good player knows what to expect from each class and should assume its going to be played to its strengths. U sound ridiculous that someone has to fight by ur set of rules for it to be what u consider a proper fight. There are no referees lol. If a thief tries trading blows with a holo or soulbeast and doesn’t use his tools to reset knowing the ranger or holo by design does more sustained damage and is far more durable than they are infact a bad thief player. Sry but ur way of thinking is wrong,thief would be a free bag otherwise which sounds like how u want ur battles anyway lol. I only use thief as example because it’s design is around a playstyle u say does not exist.

Haha yeah I kno I’ve repeated it few times over last few months lol but I think I could definitely work if done right

I think predator style cloak would end most arguments and is usually what most pvp games do. Hard to see when still but if paying attention u can spot cloaked players while their on the move,maybe give them 25% movement while cloaked to help balance their low sustain

On some specs in comparison to others that’s a big yes!

Mesmer has received more nerfs than thief? I hope u felt awkward typing that lol thief not only has been hit so often patch threads trigger ptsd(no disrespect to sufferers obviously) ontop they were significant unlike most of the inconsequential nerfs mesmers faced. Is it cuz they share tele’s or invisibility that ur defence is to always deflect to thief?thief is so far below mesmer as a whole in performance,kit bloat and ease of use in pvp their not even close to comparable yet many of u make urselves hard to take serious by forum members trying to compare them. When’s last time Uve seen anything close to a DD/core theif is op thread, most are asking for small buffs,oh wait in nerf mirage threads lol. U kno ur class is an issue when its nerf threads dwarf that of a spec like DE who’s sole burst is using a mechanic like perma stealth lol soulbeast and holo’s cant even compare to the sheer number of nerf mesmer threads and their crazy over performing as well

> @"Aplethoraof.2643" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"Vagrant.7206" said:

> > > * We can talk about their ability to spam conditions and power damage like crazy, with relative impunity.

> > > * We can talk about the number of evades, dodges, and blocks they are given access to and how this allows them to stay in a long fight while being a glass cannon.

> > > * We can talk about how they can practically ignore CC's thanks to mirage cloak, making punishing them for screwing up worthless.

> > > * We can talk about stealth and detargets, and how it makes combat with them unpleasant.

> > > * We can talk about their ability to teleport great distances and skip out when things get too rough.

> > > * We can talk about ease of play and skill floor/cap, and how rewarding the spec is for the effort.

> > >

> > > But that's missing the forest for the trees. The simple truth is that condi mirage is simply DOING TOO MUCH, period. Any one of the things on the list above makes a halfway decent build, but all of the above makes it kind ridiculous. I don't want the spec nerfed into the ground, but you can't honestly play any other class and think "Yeah, condi mirage is balanced."

> > >

> > > PS: I play a conversion holo, specifically designed to counter condi mirage, and it can still beat me if I screw up. **I almost never get a kill because they run away first**

> >

> > Pointing finger at Mesmer again??

> > Making exceptions?

> >

> > Thief, warrior, ranger not included?

> >

> > 

> >

>

> Excellent whataboutism.

This is the bases of every mesmers defence. If mesmers op what about insert class here. If this is nerfed on mesmer than this similar skill on insert class should be nerfed as well as if their kit isn’t bloated and there class is on such a level playing field nothing can be toned down on them without Toning similar skill on other classes as well. Every threads the same

I’m actually with u on stealth removal

Almost every mesmer op thread the discussion quickly turns to other classes and how other aspects of other classes should have nerfs if mesmer was to receive any and this one is no different. Wasn’t long before thief was brought up suggesting more nerfs to an already in a lot of cases underperforming class due to constant nerfs because why? If u aren’t implying DD is op than why jump to nerfing DD dodge with exhaustion? As if as a whole their in such a close spot as far as performance that if mirage got toned done so should DD? It’s always well if arena net does this to mesmer or mirage than this and this should be nerfed on this class like mirages kit isn’t already more loaded than most others.if that were to happen then not much would change as mesmers kit would remain more loaded than others,it is possible to tone mirage down without toning down similar aspects of other classes because as a whole the class still performs different than each other. Than after it’s usually why aren’t people complaining about soulbeast etc? They are it’s just right now mirage is the worst offender so stands to reason why their more singled out than others lol DE has the most linear and cheesiest playstyle build that clearly is over performing and does it inmo the most annoying way thru perma stealth and if mirage is annoying more people than DE perma stealth is than there’s a real issue with mirage lol

Anyway I’m not arguing,don’t need to the 10 times more mesmer is broken threads vs any other class does it for me. And without considering DE one broken perma stealth cheese build core/dd are not even close to the level that mesmer,soulbeast and holo are over performing so comparing any mesmer spec to thief and not clarifying DE is in question will make ur thief is as op as mesmer comparisons humorous and hard to take ur responses serious. Lol only mesmer mains would call core/DD op. When’s last time u saw a DD is op

Post? Thief’s been hit hard patch after patch not little inconsequential nerfs like mesmers received, even read earlier a mesmer stating the class has had more nerfs than thief,say what? Lol cmon it’s the games god mode,I run Condi in wvw and half people run shortly into the fight, I play way more thief but down people with Condi Mirage and power mesmer far easier than a class I’ve actually put time into,that says somthing. And yeah soulbeast is kinda the same so is holo and DE with right build but doesn’t detract from how over performing mesmer is. Other than cheese invisibility burst DE doesnt do much,unlike the loaded kit of mirage

> @"Lincolnbeard.1735" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > Take exhaustion off elusive mind and put it on mirage cloak itself causing exhaustion on stunbreak and Condi removal if ulusive mind is traited Their now it would be comparable to unhindered combatant trait. Naming shadowstels etc as stunbreak to defend mirage cloak is ridiculous because it’s a SKILL not a built in mechanic and has a decent CD, which mirage has other similar skills so. Better yet make mesmers blocks all 1 1/4 seconds like the one block thief has lol.

>

> Don't know if I understood you right. You're saying MC by default breaks stun and causes exhaustion if doing so? If it is indeed that what you meant, what about we take exhaustion off UC and attached it by default to dd dodge?

> I don't know how many times me and other mesmers said this but here it goes again, we don't want mc to allow dodge while stunned, and exhaustion doesn't work on mesmer, it does on dd because you got a ton of endurance gain skills that allow you to bypass exhaustion.

No that again is not the same at all wow haha. Sure put exuastion on vault as well as already being on UC, as long as exhaustion is added to MC if stun or condition is removed via UM than also add it to ambush attacks. Than to make up for longer and more blocks than thief remove all invisibility from mesmer so it can’t do everything all in one class lol

> @"UfoCoffee.2084" said:

> > @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > > @"Jasper Defthand.3018" said:

> > > I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

> >

> > Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

> >

> > Mesmer

>

> Hahahaha what? You must be joking? Thief can't 1v1 or hold a point and gets 1 shot.

>

> Mesmer is the complete opposite. Very funny. I barely see thieves in my games. Unless they're a feeding deadeye or rarely a slightly annoying d/p mosquito.

+1

U mesmers do nothing but give sad defensive argument that always deflect to other classes,every time! Soulbeast,holo and DE need toned down too, so what? There’s threads for those too. Stating things about them that are op doesn’t justify anything regarding how brokenirage currently is

Take exhaustion off elusive mind and put it on mirage cloak itself causing exhaustion on stunbreak and Condi removal if ulusive mind is traited Their now it would be comparable to unhindered combatant trait. Naming shadowstels etc as stunbreak to defend mirage cloak is ridiculous because it’s a SKILL not a built in mechanic and has a decent CD, which mirage has other similar skills so. Better yet make mesmers blocks all 1 1/4 seconds like the one block thief has lol.

Ten times nerf mirage threads vs even deadeye tells a story,sry cant edit my posts anymore for some reason

> @"Burnfall.9573" said:

> > @"Jasper Defthand.3018" said:

> > I'm getting sick of seeing 2 mirages on all my teams and enemy teams, theres 10 player slots in a match and 4 of them in all of my matches are Mirages. They arn't fun to fight against, and I see them every where. This flavor of the month is out of control.

>

> Thief remain flavor of 6 years and counting and remain out of control since. Guess who received more nerfs from than to now between these two? thief or mesmer?

>

> Mesmer

Man U mesmers alway bring up other classes when mesmers are being called out. Mesmers as a whole may have high skill cap but also lowest to be effective. The only op thing about thief is DE due to traits in its trait line like stealth on dodge. Every mesmer spec is far easier than any class to be effective especially Condi Mirage due to its bloated toolkit and its game breaking mechanics. The reason thief’s ten times the nurf mirage threads vs even DE tells a story also why there’s so many new mesmer players jumping on the easy mode class, u gonna tell me core/dd are easy mode? Try fighting a soulbeast,guard or holo on DD or core and see how u do compared to ur mesmer. I’ve geared mesmer for pvp and wvw and it is not comparable to thief in any way other than mesmers being given most of the thief’s tools lol most players actually run after my first Condi shatter burst where as on thief usually I’m the one resetting to re engage lol

Hp’s seem fine just think some low hp classes should get ways to sustain in fight longer thru other means. Thief for example have 3 secs instead of 4 on daggerstorm, buff bandits defence from 1 1/4 sec to 2 or 3 sec and lower fast reflexes ICD. Than classes with higher hp’s shave their active defences by a small margin exempt is necro because shroud is its only sustain and lacks block/invulnerability and mobility lol

> @"Odinens.5920" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"KrHome.1920" said:

> > > > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > > > @"Odinens.5920" said:

> > > > > I look at it this way - if you initiate a fight against me and I come out on top and you run away, rather than finish what you started, I'm not chasing you, and I'll consider it a win. I don't have time to chase pansies around a map.

> > > >

> > > > Issue with that is some specs and or builds are meant for hit run playstyle and players that are utilizing this are only playing to their spec/class strengths and would actually be considered a poor decision for them to stay and duel as some classes/builds this would be suicide. Especially with the builds running around these days.

> > > First of all: resetting is not a playstyle, it's a reset.

> > >

> > > Regarding poor decisions:

> > >

> > > Experiences of a reaper player:

> > > If one of these "I am afraid to die an go for cheese mode" powercreep mobility builds leaps to 1500 range after he messed up (usually done by GS warriors to regenerate or longbow soulbeasts), then I do a leap in the opposite direction and move on which is usually too much distance for them to catch up again and it often breaks combat so that I can teleport back to keep.

> > >

> > > You know what the typical reaction of these people is? ... **/laugh**

> > >

> > > Isn't it a poor decision to disengage when you can't re-engage?

> > >

> > > WvW idiocy...

> >

> > Ur wrong! Thief resetting is part of its playstyle

>

> Sorry dude, I consider disengaging and resetting 2 different things. Resetting a fight because you're losing is not a playstyle, it's a non-play style...."dang, I didn't get the surprise one-shot on this dude so I'll just use my leaps to get away to get all my health and cooldowns back and try again."

>

> Disengaging to me means, staying in the fight but kiting, or getting out of aoes, or out of that pull range.....not running away to get your health and cooldowns back and starting again. If you're resetting a fight you might want to play something else, cuz it would seem you don't know how to manage your abilities/CDs.

Disengagement to me is if losing disengaging and not returning,resetting is backing off to reset hp/CD to re engage. Not that I feel DE is healthy due to perma stealth but it’s playstyle requires hit and run gameplay due to lack of sustain in longer fights and how it achieves damage in burst and not in sustained combat. A DE or thief in general is at a disadvantage vs almost all classes in a fight exchanging blows and needs to reset if things aren’t going well,it doesn’t have the blocks and invulnerability mesmers,guards have to balance the low hp. Thief has a 1 1/4 sec block compared to most classes that have more than one at 3-4 sec and has no dependable invulnerability unless u consider fast reflexes as a bad substitute. It has to rely on evades and mobility to survive and due to low hp’s,high damage/sustain most classes have these days the have no choice but to run or die and why would someone chose death? lol if a soulbeast kept resetting to rapid fire u or somthing similar than I could see the frustration but a class like thief due to its weaknesses and strengths I think it is it’s play

> @"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

> > @"Kylden Ar.3724" said:

> >n suggest just removing 2 CORE classes cause you can't learn to beat them, cause YOU say YOU can't counter stealth, because there is plenty of people in WvW and PvP that in fact counter stealth all the time. What happens when they do remove stealth, and then you discover you can't deal with Guards and Warriors because of all the Blocks, Invulnerable, and Sustain? Going to ask for those classes to be removed? That's 5/9 gone. Eventually we'll be down to what, Necro only? What poor roaming class _do you play_ so we all know what we're allowed to play?

> >

>

> I am not just suggesting it, I think it is the only fair and sensible way forward.

>

> I do not care about warriors or guardians, because they don't shoot for 20+k damage out of stealth. Or jump in, do 17k damage, jump away, jump in a short while later for a second 17k hit.

>

> Like thiefs or mesmers do.

>

> A LOT.

>

> So enjoy your broken classes you love so much. Because it seems you are only concerned about your own fun: hitting others who have no idea you are coming, then retreat into stealth, so you don't have to fear retribution.

>

> But hey, there is another way to fix thieves and mesmers and all their elites once and for all without removing them or stealth.

>

> Really.

>

> It is really simple too.

>

> Just divide their maximum, their median and their minimum damage by 10. And half their hp.

>

> You don't take any risks? Fine. You don't do any damage.

>

> THAT would be balanced.

I know it’s crazy the amount of daredevils running around ruining people,oh wait lol,the impact they have on zergs bouncing in and out is trivial and usually get eaten by scourge condis in seconds,in duels they are far less a threat than soulbeast,mirage and holo’s,even core guard out burst them and have far more tools to sustain the fight longer. Glad ur not in charge of balancing or there would be even more soulbeast and holos running around lol

my apologies for annoyance,will try and be mindful of such things

Be great if thief 1v1 dueling potential was increased,not by a large margin by any means just a small boost

> @"Raiden The Beast.3016" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"gebrechen.5643" said:

> > > > @"Sigmoid.7082" said:

> > > > It's sad and bad design because classes are designed differently with different strengths and weaknesses ?

> > > >

> > > > Not every class is designed with staying power. Some have mobility to compensate.

> > > >

> > > > There was one was one guy who thought that if it had more mobility than warrior or a z-axis teleports it was exploiting / broken.

> > >

> > > If that was the case it would be balanced, but it isn't. The strongest classes have all of the options combined. That's why there are so many mesmers, warriors, thieves and rangers.

> >

> > Seeing far less warriors and thieves there's days, it's mostly mesmer/holo/ranger that are solo

>

> True, maybe bc of teef noodle dmg ... (not talking about DE)

Yea Thief can do some big numbers using stealth back stabs etc but without using those tactics u have to out play some one hard to down them which is hard with a lot of the specs/builds that carry players these days. There are some good thieves out there tho that make very few minstakes that do well.