ButcherofMalakir.4067

Well I dont need trinkets, just weapons and armor

Is it possible to get pof stats without pof?

If yes what does word and what doesnt. Thanks

For me interesting part of raids is actualy the squad composition. There are not that many options in 5 man squads

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Yes. But everyone cal learn from veterans if they open some search engine and type in training discord. I did that when walking to the dentist. I know that learning by yourself is way harder so why not use the help some players (and highly skilled i may add) offer for free

> Language barrier.

I totaly forget that. In my country basicaly everyone under 35 years speaks english. I havent relised that in some places english is not compolsoury in schools.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I agree with that. I think that if players dont have time to play raids then also they wouldnt have time to do the other way to get legendary armor.

> It's the learning time - you don't need a lot of that for WvW for example. You can start earning your legendary from day 1. In raids, there's no "partial success" on encounter - only kills count. A wipe at 5% boss hp still earns you no LI. So, you need to sink a lot of time into it before you even _start_ earning any progress on your path towards legendary.

>

> > I dont understand how could vg require that much dedication but i will take your word for it.

> >

> > I was helping crossroads inn teach raids for half a year and outside of dhuum, soulless horror and deimos they killed at least 1 boss each training. There was only one player that havent seen improvement and he never came in with right gear etc.

> Key points here being "helping" and "teach". Training groups from training guilds always have at least one veteran leading the group, often one or two more to help, and the rest is a mix of new players and those that have already seen the fight a number of times.The group i was talking about however was completely made up of new players (not new to the game, but new to raiding and the demands this level of play places on both group and individual players), and all of them started raiding practically completely fresh (that included dps players having to learn rotations, and some players having to make and learn support classes). Try to do VG when your healers and chronos are completely new to both class and role, and the rest of the players think at the start that 10k (on boss, not on golem) is good dps, and you will understand what i mean. Ah, also, overheal strat didn't exist yet then, and chronos weren't good enough for dependable distort share, so the group had to run greens.

>

> That's the impact of the social factor here. You learn better in a group where most of the players are veterans that have this fight already mastered. Especially if the key roles are covered. A group consisting of new players without even a single veteran to help will progress much, much slower.

Yes. But everyone cal learn from veterans if they open some search engine and type in training discord. I did that when walking to the dentist. I know that learning by yourself is way harder so why not use the help some players (and highly skilled i may add) offer for free

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

> > > Correction. They will _try_ to learn. Whether they'll learn however is not certain. The key point here is not "dedication" but "time". For some players, the time they've got won;t be enough.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > How many hours do you think is needed for most players to learn raids enough to clear wing 1-4 ? 100 hours?

> For some, yes. I do know however a group for whom those 100 hours (to be more precise, 6-8 hours of trainings per week, each week, for 3 months) were barely enough to kill VG. Once. And no, the group was not lacking in the dedication department.

>

> > Even if you play an hour per week you will get there in 2 years.

> See above. Notice also, that the longer the breaks between trainings, the less experience retained from training to training. If the group mentioned above had only 1 hour per week for training, 2 years might not have been enough for that one kill.

>

>

I agree with that. I think that if players dont have time to play raids then also they wouldnt have time to do the other way to get legendary armor.

I dont understand how could vg require that much dedication but i will take your word for it.

I was helping crossroads inn teach raids for half a year and outside of dhuum, soulless horror and deimos they killed at least 1 boss each training. There was only one player that havent seen improvement and he never came in with right gear etc.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

> Correction. They will _try_ to learn. Whether they'll learn however is not certain. The key point here is not "dedication" but "time". For some players, the time they've got won;t be enough.

>

>

>

How many hours do you think is needed for most players to learn raids enough to clear wing 1-4 ? 100 hours?

Even if you play an hour per week you will get there in 2 years.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I am sorry, i guess i dont understand. What is the problem that keep someone from learning raids?

> There are several factors that directly or indirectly affect it - the key ones being time available, social factor, learning curve and physical factors.

> 1. This is rather obvious, i hope - learning raids takes time. The less time you can dedicate to it, the slower the process.

> 2. This should also be obvious - having friends (especially already experienced ones) that can raid with you help immensely with learning. On the other hand, having to learn everything by pugging can be quite a slow process, depending on the quality of pugs RNGesus will bless/curse you with.

> 3. People learn at a different rate. One player may grasp something after one-two attempts, while another might require weeks and weeks of repeated attempts.

> 4. Learning speed is one thing - execution is something different. Learning something doesn't always mean you can put it in practice. There are people with significantly slower reactions. There are people that will have problems with perception (recognizing attack tells, for example, or noticing that something important is happening). There are people that have problems with manual dexterity required for some things (for example, i know people that are completely incapable of doing some rotations at decent levels, because they simply cannot press keys fast enough). There can also be some other issues - for example, many rotations require from the player at least some feel for timing. Not everyone is capable of that to a required degree.

> All of those things impact how fast someone can learn. And here we get to the crux of the matter - while indeed in theory, after putting enough time and effort in it, everyone can learn to clear raids, the truth is that this effort and time is not the same for everyone. For some it will be fast and easy. For others, the amount of effort and time they'd have to put in it is so big to make the whole thing not realistic.

>

> And that's even without addressing the enjoyment factor.

>

> > @"Katary.7096" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

> > >

> > > Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

> > >

> > >

> > Are you suggesting that Arenanet is deliberately gatekeeping raidcontent completion rates at X% and that they will make changes to the encounters (in either direction) once they find a reasonable deviation from the amount which they consider to be the "correct" one?

> No, i am suggesting that Raids were meant for the people that _wanted_ a content not everyone would be able to clear. If truly everyone could do that, then raids would have to be considered to be a complete failure. So, in a way, yes - while Anet probably didn't have any specific % numbers in mind, they still deliberately designed the content to have low completion rates.

>

> Remember, that "difficulty" is relative, not absolute. A content everyone can clear is neither difficult nor challenging.

>

All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > "Problem" is not a problem. Thags why there are "".

> > > > Everyone statisticaly cannot be millionare because ones succes is linked to others fail. In raids if you clear the raid it doesnt mean that someone else will fail automaticaly.

> > > Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

> > >

> > > Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Thats true but until anet change it everyone can learn and clear them

> If that is indeed true, then they are badly balanced in the first place.

>

> It is (again) as true, as saying that anyone can become a millionaire. Yes, in theory that's true, but only in theory - in practice, in most cases it's extremely unlikely.

I am sorry, i guess i dont understand. What is the problem that keep someone from learning raids?

> @"TamX.1870" said:

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > If you take a Thief - Deadeye into the golem room, and with no other variables, do DPS testing with 10 different builds / gear, you will in all likelihood come out with 10 different results. There will be a DPS value that is the highest, and there will be a DPS value that is the lowest.

>

> I certainly fully agree with this.

>

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > So of those 10 different DPS values we got from Deadeye, the person who decides to pick the build ranked #3 isn't being "creative", the player choosing #4" isn't being edgy, nor is the one who picks #5 worthy of the title "Thinks for oneself" - all three actually earn the same title: "Doesn't do as much DPS as the guy who runs build #1"

>

> In all simplicity, true. I know you are looking entirely just DPS you can dish out in fractals & raids, so I won't start arguing about #3 or #4 possibly having utility value to improve the group's overall performance (DPS, heals, breakbar damage or so). You might not consider those, although many people do when considering group (incl. meta) compositions. For example, hypotethically, what if that #3 augments another running #1 deal more DPS together? Is it then bad choice? In your DPS meter having two Deadeyes it would tell you that #1 still deals more damage than #3, but it could be hard to see that they together deal more damage than 2x #1.

>

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > It's really that simple. Willfully / ignorantly choosing to play a build that does less damage than what is possible doesn't make you special or cool, it just makes you less of a contributor.

>

> Yes, if you only look for damage meters. If you look for group compositions, the situation might be different. For example, to reach numbers higher than #3, that #1 build might need some boon & condi uptimes that can not be granted by regular groups. Or if they want to be provided, some other build needs to tune down DPS to support #1 to reach the highest possible numbers, and that would be drop in overall team DPS. Of course, this is entirely hypothetical situation.

>

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > Now there is an argument that some players cannot perform as well with certain builds, and by playing the #3 build, they live longer, have more DPS uptime, etc, so they actually offer more of a contribution than they would have had they opted for build #1.

>

> Yes, although you could extent it a bit. By running #3 instead of #1, generally their team may live longer, they may have more DPS uptime, it can boost some other (popular) builds' DPS output etc etc. It might be entirely viable build even based on DPS meter, if you look overall team performance. Furthermore, that #3 might be a build that fits better for several different team compos, and thus justifies its existence when PuGging. With your static, you can of course run whatever you decide your team compo to be.

>

> > But that again isn't an issue with DPS meters; it just means that player isn't as good at GW2 as some of their peers.

>

> Yeah, it is not an issue with DPS meters.

>

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > The ideal scenario would see players pick the optimal build, then practice it so they can perform at the level requisite for peak performance. Whether that is required for the content or desired by the individual player is a separate argument. The logic stands on its own. There will always be a build that is 'best', and choosing to play anything else is just an indication that your output will not be the 'best' it could be.

>

> Yes. But I'd extent it a bit further: at PvE land, there will probably always be team compositions that are valued 'best'. It means that some team members give up their DPS to increase the overall team output: as an example, BS warrior, chrono and druid. As long as you can choose the builds for your team, there is certain combo you think gives the best overall result (as team DPS & breakbar output etc).

>

> Just don't get me wrong. I have no problems to understand your point. But I'd like to make you to notice, that even what you said, you by yourself don't justify builds by their DPS numbers against golems or T4 runs. If you would do that, you wouldn't understand why there are things like chrono and druid and bannerslave in your group. What you look is to have highest possible team DPS output with enough breakbar damage, stability and such stuff, and some heals, and you are looking for optimal or close optimal team compositions, and builds & roles for members of such group.

>

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > Some groups don't care about that, while others do. Nobody gets to decide who is right or who is wrong in that regard. A group that requires all players be their 'best' has every right to make that a requirement, and if they choose to use a DPS meter to help them with that aim, that doesn't make them toxic, or elitist. They form the group, they form the rules - don't like the rules, don't join the group.

>

> I fully agree. If a group wants a specific build to join, it is highly acceptable. They have team composition that can only reach its potential with a member with specific build and skills to use it.

>

> > @"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

> > Amid all this is the DPS meter, who does nothing more than tell people the facts. That some people don't like the facts they are presented with, or the ramifications thereof, is not the fault of the DPS meter.

>

> I totally agree.

You are totaly correct. With your points. Dps meters are just for oriantation. Classes are taken for all dps they bring combined. That is why every squad has a warrior. Because warrior brings more dps then any other dps option. The reason why people look at dps meters is to see how bad/well are they doing and if the dps is high enough to do some strategies.

Build #3 work if the player has specific idea in mind against sope specific mechanic that is too hard for the squad to deal with. But if squad is dealing with it without problems then #1 is better.

People that dont like specific builds either dont want to admit they need it (or dont even relise they need it), or they play well so another #1 would help them much more then #3

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > "Problem" is not a problem. Thags why there are "".

> > Everyone statisticaly cannot be millionare because ones succes is linked to others fail. In raids if you clear the raid it doesnt mean that someone else will fail automaticaly.

> Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

>

> Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

>

>

Thats true but until anet change it everyone can learn and clear them

I will talk about pve part of the game since I play mostly raids and some fractals. Hopefuly this will help you even when it is late.

There is no holy trinity but still clases have theirs specific jobs. I would say there is holy duality of support and dps.

Some terminology in this post:

Condition dps = dps that specialize in damage over time, better with long phases

Power dps = dps that specialize in "normal" damage, usualy better in short fights, cleaving and bursts

Active support = support class that spend most of the time actively supporting allies

Passive support = class that is taken primary for their support but it is mostly played like a dps. Its support part is either totaly passive or require very low percentage of time to use its support skills.

Core: build that doesnt use either specialization

Next paragraphs will be about raids. Generaly power dps is waaaaay better in fractals because of short fights (burst > dps) and adds (cleave)

Warrior:

Warrior is always needed in pve. It is taken for its passive support in terms of banners and empowered allies trait. Because of that second every squad want one but none want 2 of them. Since there is no clear way to nerf this i think warrior (and druid/soulbeast) will be meta for long time.

Berzerker: condition version with suprisingly strong cleave damage. Basic version of banner warrior in raids.

Core: power version with high ammount of cc. Comes ahead in fights with alot of phases and when cc is needed. Go to version for fractals.

Spellbreaker. Taken only if boon stripping is needed and noone else can do it (so sometimes basicaly fractals). I am not sure if kast patch changed that

Guardian

Can cover many roles.

Dragonhunter: Right now very strong bursty power dps. It is on the easier side and recomended for beginners.

Firebrand: either ok condition dps with quite fast condition aplication (so more burst then normal condition options) or offensive support called quickbrand that (together with alacrity renegade) can replace chrono. More active support then warrior but i would still consider it passive support (basicaly allsupport spelks are used whenever ready and have short cast times) but it has many situational support skills at its disposal to deal with many situations. Power option is meta in fractals. Better for guild runs since PUGs usualy want chronomancers

Revenant

Only renegade has any uses but there are many of them.

Renegade: either strong condition dps with advantage agains big hitboxes and moving targets or support build that focus on providing alacrity (alacrity renegade). Alacrity renegade can also fill in role of healer. Because of energy managment it doesnt have option to use most damage spells so it is active support.

Ranger

In demand because of spitits.

Soulbeast: either good bursty power dps or good condition dps. Not best in slot but certainly not bad.

Druid: primary healer in raids. It has not the best helth per second but provides so much offensive buffs that there is no competition. In 99 percent of time you need 1. (In fractals renegade takes its place in firebrand/ren compozition)

Thief.

Mostly dps builds. Can support on some bosses (depends on stolen skills).

Daredevil: good power dps with no cleave but acces to huge cc.

Deadeye: power dps with highest potential numbers that is not best in slot anywhere because it require specific conditions that are rarely met and doesnt do anything else.

Engi

Acces to great vulnerability aplication.

Core: condition dps that is considered the hardest build to play because of number of inputs and cooldown tracking. Has many skills at its disposal so there might be answer to everything if you know where to look. Requires perfect boons from supports to be playable.

Holosmith: either good power dps or slightly easier core (barely noticable diference). Core is better at longer phases whereas condi holo is better in shorter fights.

Necro

Not very good (outside of specific situations) in group pve but very strongvin soloplay.

Reaper: easy power dps with low potential.

Scourge: condi dps taken only for epidemic or heal version that is only useful in hands of experianced player when he/she wants to carry inexperianced players.

Elementalist

Very good power dps withch can have great cleave and burst but also very squishy. On the harder side (but nowhere near core engi lvl)

Tempest: easier version with great burst and amazing at clearing adds. Can be also played as healer or buffer.

Weaver: since sword is now the go to weapon it lost its cleave but still extremly good at bursting.

Mesmer

Many options here, all of them top tier somewhere.

Mirage: condition damage that have no match on fast atacking bosses.

Chrono: Either power dps with very high burst that is delayed and require guite a few inputs. Has no cleave and after its burst it becomes less demanding to play but also less powerful until you get your long cds back.

Or active support build that buffs group and deal with some mechanics, good support chrono swapsa traits, skills, weapons or even armor and runes/sigils for each fight.

Edit: most requestes is support chrono folowed by druid and warrior. If i remember correctly then warrior, guardian and revenant are good in all 3 gamemodes

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Its fine because raids are not as proffitable as fractals or ow farm. Qol rewards compensate this fact.

> I'm not really supporting putting second PvE legendary armor in Fractals. Third maybe, but not second. Fractals are too similar to raids, and share most of the same problems - at this point we don't need another legendary armor for a niche content played by minority. As for SW being a good farm, it's not like SW is the only OW content - we don't need to put legendary armor collection there.

This. I feel like rewards from both quite similar contents are balanced. Second pve legendary armor could come out from lws4 maybe? I think there will be something legendary there. Or maybe from guild missions + pof maps.

I would be ok with fractal legendary armor If it either require some additional challanges in all T4 fractals including CMs or required high enough amount of pristine relics so it would be as long of a grind as the wvw one is.

Interesting fact is that than it would be for only fraction of population as the rest legendary armors are

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > My reason why i dont want legendary armor from fractals is that it is another step in making the game easier.

> > > > > The difficulty of fractals wouldn't change if Anet decided to make a legendary armor set for that content.

> > > > >

> > > > > > If this goes on i will leave because it will be too easy to enjoy when you get everything for free

> > > > > Noone's talking about giving anyone anything for free. Well, apart from you of course.

> > > > > And armor from fractals would be no more (or less) free than the one from raids is.

> > > >

> > > > If you get something by just playing what you want it is not rewarding

> > > Yet raiders do get it by playing the content they want. And they apparently consider Legendary Armor to be rewarding enough, or they would not bother defending its exclusivity. You also seem fine with that mode of getting it, while also liking the content itself. So it seems that only getting it by playing content you think is not worthy of it is not rewarding, but if you do like the content, it's okay.

> > >

> > > By the way, by your reasoning, we should place the legendary armor in a content you don't like to play, because only then it will be rewarding. So, i think... open world?

> >

> > Right now you need openworld collections for raid legendary armor. I would never went there if i wasnt required to. Also i learned about raids from legendary armor collection and that was why i started raiding.

> > Also fractals are much more rewarding then raids goldwise while raids provide quality of life rewards like legendary armor and white mantle portal device.

> > If fractals get those rewards then i think it would be fair to get 10g for each raidboss so you get similar gold value in a week

>

> By that logic one could also demand to get the same amount from doing Fractals just once a week like they do from Raids.

> It doesn't really make sense to compare daily content with weekly content in terms of rewards earned per week.

>

> Not that I would mind Raid rewards being increased slightly, although 10g seems way too much.

10g per boss is still less gold per week then doing fractals. How many minutes do you need to complete t4+recomended? 45 minutes? So its 5 hours and 15 minutes weekly. You FC faster but you can also do fractals faster

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"zealex.9410" said:

> > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > My reason why i dont want legendary armor from fractals is that it is another step in making the game easier.

> > > > > The difficulty of fractals wouldn't change if Anet decided to make a legendary armor set for that content.

> > > > >

> > > > > > If this goes on i will leave because it will be too easy to enjoy when you get everything for free

> > > > > Noone's talking about giving anyone anything for free. Well, apart from you of course.

> > > > > And armor from fractals would be no more (or less) free than the one from raids is.

> > > >

> > > > If you get something by just playing what you want it is not rewarding

> > >

> > > I'm not asking for reward, I'm asking for convenient items. QoL.

> > > Again PvPer beg to differ, there are lots of sPvP players never step foot in WvW and vice versa.

> > > Why this double standard applies to PVE players?

> >

> > You are asking to be rewarded with qol for playing what you want, how you want.

> >

> > That would make this qol thingy not rewarding for other parts of the game.

> Currently it's raiders that are being rewarded with this QoL for playing what they want, how they want. In your words that would make this "qol thingy" not rewarding for other parts of the game already. And yet, i don't see raiders complaining about it, so i must assume they consider it to be perfectly fine.

> Well, if it's perfectly fine in this case, it will be perfectly fine in all other cases as well.

>

Its fine because raids are not as proffitable as fractals or ow farm. Qol rewards compensate this fact.

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > My reason why i dont want legendary armor from fractals is that it is another step in making the game easier.

> > > The difficulty of fractals wouldn't change if Anet decided to make a legendary armor set for that content.

> > >

> > > > If this goes on i will leave because it will be too easy to enjoy when you get everything for free

> > > Noone's talking about giving anyone anything for free. Well, apart from you of course.

> > > And armor from fractals would be no more (or less) free than the one from raids is.

> >

> > If you get something by just playing what you want it is not rewarding

> Yet raiders do get it by playing the content they want. And they apparently consider Legendary Armor to be rewarding enough, or they would not bother defending its exclusivity. You also seem fine with that mode of getting it, while also liking the content itself. So it seems that only getting it by playing content you think is not worthy of it is not rewarding, but if you do like the content, it's okay.

>

> By the way, by your reasoning, we should place the legendary armor in a content you don't like to play, because only then it will be rewarding. So, i think... open world?

Right now you need openworld collections for raid legendary armor. I would never went there if i wasnt required to. Also i learned about raids from legendary armor collection and that was why i started raiding.

Also fractals are much more rewarding then raids goldwise while raids provide quality of life rewards like legendary armor and white mantle portal device.

If fractals get those rewards then i think it would be fair to get 10g for each raidboss so you get similar gold value in a week

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > My reason why i dont want legendary armor from fractals is that it is another step in making the game easier.

> The difficulty of fractals wouldn't change if Anet decided to make a legendary armor set for that content.

>

> > If this goes on i will leave because it will be too easy to enjoy when you get everything for free

> Noone's talking about giving anyone anything for free. Well, apart from you of course.

> And armor from fractals would be no more (or less) free than the one from raids is.

If you get something by just playing what you want it is not rewarding

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > I will never understand you guys I guess. This is a game. There are rules. Right now rules are that legendary armor is from raids, wvw and pvp. You can do whatevere you want within boundaries set by those rules. If anet changes it then there will be new rules. Guys that demand something to change are like players playing chess that argue that why knight cannot move like the queen.

> > > The difference is, this is not chess. The rules can change, and have in the past, many times over. In fact, the rule you brought up is in itself a result of changes to the rules. The place the envoy armor is (raids) was one such change. Two pvp sets (WvW and SPvP ones) were another.

> > > Now, the most important part: both changes happened **because some people were asking for that**.

> > >

> > > The rules you ask players to accept are themselves a result of players not accepting the (previous) rules. So, why can't those be changed (again)?

> > >

> >

> > The rules changed because anet gets profit from it.

> How did they exactly profit from SPvP armor? It didn't get any more people in the game, that's for sure.

>

> > I never heared someone leave the game because they cannot get legendary armor in openworld nor do i think that new players will come because there is set of legendary armor.

> > However i think there will be players that leave after they went out of their comfort zone and got raid armor only to "lose the prestige" by making legendary armor more common

> There were people that left the game because they went out of their comfort zone to get the legendary armor from raids, and as a result their game experience turned sour, causing their enjoyment factor to plummet. There definitely will be people that will leave for the same reason in the future.

> So, you were saying?

>

> (also, i don't think that people that get their enjoyment from keeping things from other players are worth retaining, but that's just me)

My reason why i dont want legendary armor from fractals is that it is another step in making the game easier. If this goes on i will leave because it will be too easy to enjoy when you get everything for free

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I will never understand you guys I guess. This is a game. There are rules. Right now rules are that legendary armor is from raids, wvw and pvp. You can do whatevere you want within boundaries set by those rules. If anet changes it then there will be new rules. Guys that demand something to change are like players playing chess that argue that why knight cannot move like the queen.

> The difference is, this is not chess. The rules can change, and have in the past, many times over. In fact, the rule you brought up is in itself a result of changes to the rules. The place the envoy armor is (raids) was one such change. Two pvp sets (WvW and SPvP ones) were another.

> Now, the most important part: both changes happened **because some people were asking for that**.

>

> The rules you ask players to accept are themselves a result of players not accepting the (previous) rules. So, why can't those be changed (again)?

>

The rules changed because anet gets profit from it. I never heared someone leave the game because they cannot get legendary armor in openworld nor do i think that new players will come because there is set of legendary armor.

However i think there will be players that leave after they went out of their comfort zone and got raid armor only to "lose the prestige" by making legendary armor more common

Well, raids can be done in 4. I think you need more time to learn then in wvw (you dont get progress in raids for learning) but wvw takes way more time for sure

Not for, not against. I will not root for you but if anet implement it i will probably get it.

My summary for everyone who dont want to read whole thread. OP wants legendary armor but dont want to play raids/wvw/pvp. He/she enjoys fractals so he/she is demanding legendary armor also from fractals.

His argument is that not everyone plays raids so there should be another way to get it. The thought that there are many players that dont play raids and/or fractals was lost somewhere.

Edit: I bet that if he/she enjoyed farming nodes he would demand legendary armor from that instead

I will never understand you guys I guess. This is a game. There are rules. Right now rules are that legendary armor is from raids, wvw and pvp. You can do whatevere you want within boundaries set by those rules. If anet changes it then there will be new rules. Guys that demand something to change are like players playing chess that argue that why knight cannot move like the queen.

> @"phs.6089" said:

> > @"tim.4596" said:

> > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > @"tim.4596" said:

> > > > > @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > > > > As relevant or irrelevant as your previous coment. No confusion at all. We are not talking about skins or legendary armors. We are talking about the possibility that the game gives to players to obtain the same or very similar items (be them skins, legendary armors, food or whatever).

> > > >

> > > > Okay, but can you imagine if we start getting the same rewards in Raids that people get in Fractals... I mean... Fractals already give so much rewards to players, while Raids clearly does not. Also you are aware that right now the game is asking Players to do Fractals to get a legendary backpiece ? So it's the same with legendary armor, you have to do Raids. Both aren't that hard to obtain in either game mode.

> > > >

> > > > And completely separating raids and fractals and giving them the same rewards, would just dissociate both game modes completely. In all honesty I think you guys asking for Legendary Armor to be added to Fractals is not really fair. You don't see raiders winning so much about all the different things available from other content to be added into Raids. They just understands that they need to play other game modes.

> > > >

> > > > I think it's pretty much like what @ButcherofMalakir.4067 is saying. You can't do "X" and you're asking if you can do "Y" instead to get the same things as you would doing "X".

> > > >

> > > > > > Also if you give legendary armor to fractals, why shouldn't you give "raids encryption box" to raids ? And add daily rewards too on top of that? Since you seem to think that there are no difference between the two.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > What I'm trying to say here is that you should start giving some serious arguments as to why Legendary armors should be added to Fractal? Asking Anet to add legendary armors to fractals because it is what people play the most and thus (arguably) the easiest way to get it. Is just being lazy. Many people hate world completion, however unless you want a legendary weapon you have to do it (that or pay 2k gold at the trading post).

> > > > >

> > > > > Ohhh, "easy", here we go again. Who said easy? When you get your "fractal God" title after +1 year of work and close to 8,000 gold spent, like I did, tell me what's easy in it.

> > > > >

> > > > I think the section above answers "easy".

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > What game are you playing? Fractals and raids were on separate notes the day, there was a raid. Please stay on topic,if you not happy with raids rewards, open own thread and put your thoughts in it

> >

> > What do you mean stay on topic. I'm not the one who started crossing boundaries by asking Legendary Armor to be added to Fractals...

>

> Excuse me? I never asked for Envoy to be added to fractals. Please read my OP.

> PVE doesn't have legendary armor, raids have. Raids are not the whole PVE.

> Why not WvW is PvP, Conquest modes is PvP so what is the difference you see.

> That fractals can have own set of legendary armor?

Raids have legendary armor. Raids are part of pve. So pve has legendary armor.

If you say that this is wrong than we cannot aregue or discuss with you since you are failing to understand basic concept of logic.

> @"phs.6089" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > > > @"phs.6089" said:

> > > > > > > > @"tim.4596" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"tim.4596" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Pirindolo.9427" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Ok, 1 question for all those that suggest, think, believe, and angrily demand that there shouldn't be a fractal legendary armor:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Apart from raiders keeping the exclusivity of the so called "PVE legendary armor", what's your reason to deny other PVE players (way more numerous than raiders, btw) a new way to get ANOTHER (yes, another, a different one, not the same, and probably a way uglier one) legendary armor? And please, don't talk about it would be too easy, because it shouldn't be easy at all, the same way that getting the "Fractal God" title isn't easy at all.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > As I said in a previous post, GW2 has so many examples of different ways to get the same or equivalent items in game, so that wouldn't hurt raiders at all. Moreover, raiders could get the new armor as well, in case they were interested in it.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > What would be the point of creating another PVE legendary armor, when we already have one? And if it's to make it way uglier what's the point at all? Moreover wouldn't adding legendary armors from different game modes make it less prestigious? Also 5 and 10man contents are very different, you shouldn't be able to access legendary armor from Dungeons no matter how many steps it takes to get it. It's just wrong.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > What would be the point of adding a new mount, when we already have many?

> > > > > > > > > What would be the point of adding a new map, when we already have many?

> > > > > > > > > What would be the point of adding a new food, when we already have many?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > How is this relevant? I think we are getting confused here. Are we talking about a new skin ? or a new legendary armor ? If you just want new skins, I don't think that it has to be a legendary armor necessary. Plus what are you suggesting; that you would like more 'combat enabled' armor skins? Do you consider the skins from the PvP legendary armor to be legendary ?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You have a RAID legendary armor. Raids are the worst representative of the PVE playerbase, simply because raids are , by far, the least played PVE content. I am asking for a FRACTAL legendary armor.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > In any case, the key of your answer is "Prestigious": thats your real, unintentional answer. In other words, exclusivity. "I have it, and (since I know that the vast majority of PVE players are unable to participate in raids, for many reasons) I don't want more people to have it".

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What do you mean by unable? Are you saying that they do not have enough time to consider to raids? Are raids not their primary focus as it isn't as rewarding as Fractals?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Also if you give legendary armor to fractals, why shouldn't you give "raids encryption box" to raids ? And add daily rewards too on top of that? Since you seem to think that there are no difference between the two.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > What I'm trying to say here is that you should start giving some serious arguments as to why Legendary armors should be added to Fractal? Asking Anet to add legendary armors to fractals because it is what people play the most and thus (arguably) the easiest way to get it. Is just being lazy. Many people hate world completion, however unless you want a legendary weapon you have to do it (that or pay 2k gold at the trading post).

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Because Armor isn't reward, it's convenient item. Reward for raiders was the skin, not functionality.

> > > > > > > If raids were fine in this game, people would raid.

> > > > > > > I don't care of easy encounters.

> > > > > > > There is already legendary armors outside raids, so asking for another from most played mode makes sense to get outta raidjail.

> > > > > > > Now gimme one good reason why are you against it beyond 'I do raids, I'm better then you'

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I want griffon, aurora and gift of battle from raids. I do not get that because it is crazy and it is not how games work

> > > > >

> > > > > Do those thing help you with raiding? Make a thread and tell Anet about it

> > > >

> > > > They do help but they are not needed nor do they give advantage to players who have them.

> > > > I would post something if for example griffon was needed to complete wing 5 but it isnt so no problem

> > >

> > > Exactly, I never asked for advantage, just convince.

> > > Given Gw2 is open world and story driven game, griffon and aurora come from story and open world. Have bough, had lots of fun doing it.

> >

> > Difference is that you are asking and i am not.

> > Its like this: you are writing a math exam and you dont know how to solve an equasion so you ask the teacher if you can get full points for writing a poem instead

>

> More of I'm on math exam and someone has a chair and I have to stand

> > @"Curunen.8729" said:

> > Can't it just be a skin/cosmetic ascended armour?

> >

> > I prefer if it remains one source of legendary armour per game mode, but would welcome ascended or even exotic fractal armour for cosmetic only.

>

> Can it be legendary with no skin and I'll go ahead and buy more skins from cash shop?

I was refering to getting legendary armor.

If you were refering to its uses its more like:

Someone learned from their writings and someonefrom writings of a friend that uses colors when writing.

During test you have no disadvantage