Tails.9372

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > No it doesn't because you failed explain how capturing a point in WvW is any different than getting a flag in CTF when it comes to the necessity of having to deal with the environment in order to win the game.

>

> CTF?

abbreviation for Capture the flag

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> My point still stands

No it doesn't because you failed explain how capturing a point in WvW is any different than getting a flag in CTF when it comes to the necessity of having to deal with the environment in order to win the game.

But I agree, there is really no point in discussing with someone who obviously has no interest in having an honest discussion about the topic. But at least you should reflect on your own words:

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> It's common for people to get extremely defensive when they are outed as being completely wrong.

Keeping that in mind should help you to keep the conversation on a somewhat bearable level.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> I'm not going to address the first part because it just seems like your ranting on and I don't feel the need to respond to "he said she said" like a child. If I ignored part of your message, it was likely because I didn't feel it worth responding to. I could cry and whine, "You ignored me, how could you?! :(" like you just did, but in reality it does nothing if not move the discussion even further off topic.

Interesting to see how you're always throwing ad hominems around when you can't win an argument. And yet you're the one calling other people childish, the irony. Also this thread is about legendary gear for every mode which is hard to argue for when we have some people who refuse to acknowledge various game modes for what they are thanks to their double standards. There is nothing off topic about this.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> However, like I said in the post above, WvW is won by killing NPCs guarding objectives. So yes, there is "vE" involved when it comes to the "overarching goal" because you have to kill "E's" to win. It doesn't matter what or who you're competing against, PvE simply means Player versus Enemies (NPCs). Judging by the fact that the only way to win is to kill the NPCs (that can be guarded by players), WvW is very clearly a PvP/PvE gamemode.

PvE stands for "Player versus Environment" not "Player versus Enemies" (or do you want to say that JPs aren't PvE?) and CTF is still not a PvE hybrid despite the fact that you have to get the flag in order to win a match. Furthermore, in RTS games you often time have to beat NPCs in order to get the resources you need to win and still no one calls it "PvE" unless the enemy fraction is controled by an NPC. Killing NPCs is just a means to the end (hence the "they are PvE elements") but the mode itself is about fractions of human players competing against each other so my point still stands.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> I quoted your entire message and responded to it.

You quoting the entire message means nothing if all you do is taking one part of it out of context. Nothing you listed had anything to do with the point I was making.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> I didn't act like you said anything.

Yeah that's the problem, you just ignored it.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Also, SAB is really irrelevant and going off topic.

No it's not, its just as different from OW PvE as WvW is from sPvP which makes it a valid example to bring up. If you really think that it's "off topic" then I have to assume that you have no idea what you're actually responding to.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> I don't wish to spend the time to explain the obvious differences between PvE sub-content just for the sake of it.

You don't have to (unless you disagree with what I actually said), it wasn't about what the differences are. It was about your double standards and it's quite interesting to see how many leaps your willing to take just to avoid the actual argument.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> No, that's exactly what it is. WvW involves both PvE and PvP, your server will not win if it does one and not the other.

Classic CTF also involves necessary interaction with the environment, it's still not a PvE hybrid due to the fact that it's about competition with the enemy team. Same with WvW which is why I said it has PvE elements but is not actual PvE. There is no "vE" involved when it comes to the overarking goal, you're not competing against the NPCs for the win. Win or loss is decided entierly by player action.

I believe some asura in Elona said: "If charrs were civilised they would be humans."

They both have things going on for them but I feel armor skins offer way more flexibility, outfits would have to have some crazy effects to make up for it. I do wish that it was possible to make a combination of the two (as in a hiding option for every part of the outfit which would reveal the armor skin you're wearing beneath it unless your hiding it too or the player getting a complete set of armor skins upon purchasing the outfit just like how it is with the head skin of the Fallen Balthazar outfit) but that's not going to happen.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"Tails.9372" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > "How are PvP and WvW **different enough** to warrant this kind of separation."

> > Question: where is the punctuation mark coming from? I'm missing the "while raids and SAB don't?" part, so we're back to cutting of the quotes again...

>

> Read down 3 lines. It's all there buddy. :]

No it's not, you ignored the rest of the sentence compleatly and acted as if I said something entierly different. You failed to show how various PvE game modes like SAB nstuff are not as different by comparison. What you responded to had nothing to do with my original post, it's called taking things out of context.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> - [WvW](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_versus_World) (main content) is "a combination Player versus Player/Player versus Environment."

Calling WvW a PvE/PvP hybrid mode would be a gross overstatement. WvW has PvE elements just like sPvP does but it's not the main focus of the gamemode. The guardian NPCs are only there to give enemy players enough time to respond and force bigger groups, thats it. They're entierly passiv in nature and are not tryng to change the status quo in any way shape or form. Even if your team is in last place you're not losing to the NPCs, your losing to the players who tipped off the scale in their favor. It would be differet if there was an NPC fraction participaiting in the battle but this is simply not the case.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> "How are PvP and WvW **different enough** to warrant this kind of separation."

Question: where is the punctuation mark coming from? I'm missing the "while raids and SAB don't?" part, so we're back to cutting of the quotes again...

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> No one has nor is trying to, put words in your mouth.

Then tell me, where for example have I ever said anything like "sPvP and WvW are pretty much the same"? Exactly I didn't, you just made that up. I said that sPvP and WvW are both PvP based gamemodes (which is something you actually agreed with) but that's about it.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> "If you're going to quote someone at least don't cut up the quote."

You're the last person who should quote this, what you were doing was just defining everything as "side content" in order to list the mayority of it but this doesn't tell me which one of it a nessesary is, in case you've forgotten:

> @"Tails.9372" said:

> Of course you actually have to play WvW in order to get the backpack but you having to list the majority of the content just proves the point that there isn't any particular side content you actually have to engage in

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> It's common for people to get extremely defensive when they are outed as being completely wrong.

Ah that's why you're ignoring my points and are trying to put words into my mouth. Thank's for clearing that up but as others already told you throwing ad hominems around dosen't help the discussion...

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> The fact that you are said otherwise just shows how severe your lack of knowledge is on the subject.

It just shows a severe lack of reading skills on your part. I never asked what "side content" can you play in order to obtain Warbringer, I asked which side content do you have to play in order to obtain Warbringer. Of course you actually have to play WvW in order to get the backpack but you having to list the majority of the content just proves the point that there isn't any particular side content you actually have to engage in in order to get the legendary gear unlike the PvE stuff where you have to play specific side content in order to get the respective items.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> you seem to have troubling understand that sPvP and WvW are not even remotely similar

Except I never said they had anything in common besides being PvP based (in fact the whole point was that they're just as different as OW PvE and SAB) which brings us back to the first point I made in this comment.

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Warbringer can only be obtained through borderlands/EB. As eotm isnt part of the mist war, its not regarded as wvw, hence NO pips (rightly so).

This has nothing to do with my post and doesn't stand in contradiction to anything I said so what's your point?

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Sure.

>

> If Raids and Fractals of the Mist are considered as "side-content" in PvE...

> and Leagues are considered as "side-content" in PvP...

> It must stand to reason that Battlegrounds and Borderlands are "side-content" in WvW.

>

> You are unable to earn Warbringer through any other WvW content asides from Battlegrounds/Borderlands, just as how...

> You are unable to earn Ad Infinitum through any other PvE content asides from Fractals...

> You are unable to earn The Ascension through any other PvP content asides from Leagues...

But this is not an answer to my question. Do you **have to** play Battlegrounds in order to get Warbringer? No, you don't. Do you **have to** play Borderlands in order to get Warbringer? No, you don't either. You can skip the vast majority of WvW content if you want to have the legendary WvW backpack while it's also available though the vast majority of WvW content. You just can't say the same about Ad Infinitum or the raid armor.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Also, even if Ardent Glorious Armor and The Ascension didn't exist, I 100% disagree with the fact that people would call Warbringer and Sublime Mistforged Armor "the PvP legendaries" as WvW and PvP are two entirely separate gamemodes with drastically different structures.

So that's where you draw the line? Different gameplay structures? Then how is sPvP and WvW different enough to warrant this kind of separation while raids and SAB don't? This seams to be quite the hypocritical stance to take don't you think? sPvP and WvW are both PvP based gamemodes just like how raids, OW PvM and SAB are all PvE based gamemodes. That's just fact no matter how people want to call it.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Instead, they would simply be called "the WvW legendaries."

Just like how the Envoy set is called the raid armor and Ad Infinitum is called the fractal backpack because that's where the majority of the focus lies.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Raids may not be representative of PvE, but they are very clearly classified as PvE content. The fact that you're saying that Ad Infinitum isn't the PvE backpiece simply because you have to play Fractals of the Mist side content to get it is completely and utterly senseless.

Have you even read what he said? He said that these things do not represent PvE, not that they're not PvE content. But go ahead, explain to us which part of getting Ad Infinitum represents raids nstuff.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> Following your terrible logic, there are no PvE, WvW, or PvP backpieces at all because you have to play side content to get them.

Well then tell me, which WvW side content do you **have to** play in order to get Warbringer?

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> You're 100% incorrect.

>

> Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Ad Infinitum](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Ad_Infinitum): _"Ad Infinitum is a legendary back item obtainable through Fractals of the Mists."_

>

> Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Fractals of the Mists](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fractals_of_the_Mists): _"(Fractals of the Mists) Type: Dungeon."_

>

> Taken from the [Official Guild Wars 2 Wiki on Dungeon](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dungeon): _"Dungeons are optional party-based PvE instances."_

>

> So, yes. PvE does have a representative backpack. PvE has Ad Infinitum. You get Ad Infinitum from Fractals of the Mists. Fractals of the Mists are classified as Dungeons. Dungeons are defined as: "optional party-based PvE instances."

Your missing the point. I never said that Ad Infinitum isn't **a** PvE backpack, it's just not **the** PvE backpack in the same way as Warbringer is for WvW. Warbringer is an overarcing reward for playing WvW, the same just isn't true for Ad Infinitum in regards to PvE. It's just like raid armor: a special reward for sub-content.

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> The legendary backpieces aren't an issue because:

> - PvE has Ad Infinitum

> - PvP has The Ascension

> - WvW has Warbringer

>

> Everyone is happy because they all have their own legendary backpieces exclusive to their respective gamemodes.

Nope, "PvE" doesn't have a representative backpack either. Just like the Envoy set (and pretty much everything else in "PvE") it's a special reward for specific sub-content as opposed to the overarcing rewards for the PvP ones.

> @"MarshallLaw.9260" said:

> Here we go again, requests for easymode leg armor. Consider this - legendary armor = endgame reward, therefore it makes sense that it come from arguably the most challenging content.

You mean like killing veteran creatures in WvW? Very challenging indeed.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> There isn't anything wrong with this.

Sure it is, putting "the goal" behind niche content only a few amount of players are expected to engage in defeats the overarching purpose of having it in the first place.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Anet cannot chase the whim of every player who is unwilling to do specific content for specific gear. That's not PRACTICAL.

Which is exactly why a mode specific overarching goal has to be tied to a more general reward structure. The Envoy set may be **a** PvE set but it can never be **the** PvE set for this very reason and that's what differenciates it from the Glorious and Triumphant sets which actually are representative goals for their respective "game modes".

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Anet does not expect every player to get every reward they want, so that isn't a compelling reason to ask for multiple paths. The whole premise of multiple paths is based on a faulty expectation.

You're right, but only if your explicitly talking about the unique rewards for the respective niche content in question. But that's not the topic here.

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> It actually is. Character skills have been changed before because there was at least one that was able to mark a position mid-air and recall to it that allowed people to prevent (fatal) fall damage, thereby exploiting jumping puzzles and other areas where mounts and/or gliding are forbidden exactly for that reason. From the moment somebody figured out that the position rewinder allows you to mark a mid-air position it seemed obvious (to me) that this wasn't intended and would be fixed for the very same reason as the above mentioned skill.

If it's about preventing fall damage for JPs then the common sense solution would be to only limit these restrictions to the areas in question. No need to limit the overall functionality of this item even further then it alredy is for the sake of some niche content which can be skiped by useing a mesmer portal anyway.

> @"ImTasty.2163" said:

> you seem really defensive about it

That's because I like good game design and I hate seeing things which could possibly be useful or interesting additions to the game getting ruined by a half assed implementation / turned into useless gimmicks thanks to people QQing over X/Y/Z.

> @"Rasimir.6239" said:

> Preventing fall damage is the first thing that comes to mind, but I wouldn't be surprised if that's not the only way to exploit it.

But according to the post that's not what they're trying to "fix" tho besides, gliders and mounting in mid air are a thing and I find it utterly ridiculous how people try to call any kind of practical aplication an "exploit" nowadays. Keep it going and it will be nothing more than just another meaninless buzzword.

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> - The Position Rewinder currently is able to mark aerial locations.

> - This is not a good thing

How so? I don't see your point here, do you want to say that an item which encourages people to be creative is somehow not a good thing? Whatever happened to "allowing the users a lot of flexibility"?

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> and we'll correct it to eliminate possible exploitation.

Such as? This seems to be based on unfunded speculations.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Yes sure, but that happens with or without multiple paths ...

Not really, if the only way to "further progress" is though a gamemode they can't stand then they are more likely to give up on it under the pretext that the game doesn't have anything else left for them to do. Also, it's alredy too late for the "only one path" approach due to the fact that we already have multiple ways to get legendary gear and if it's about a "gamemode" in particular then a legendary set tied to an overarching reward system would be the most "fair" way to go about it.

> @"Obtena.7952" said:

> Exactly ... Just because in theory, multiple legendary paths sounds like a good idea doesn't mean it happens. the PRACTICAL side is the time it takes and how it's done. I don't really see it's worth the effort. What return on Anet's effort do they get, other than some goodwill for entitled players that aren't willing to do what is required NOW to get it?

It gives players a long term goal and keeps them playing, that's the main reason why legendaries were introduced in the first place.

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> [On the Bond of Life Mastery:] The beauty of this mastery is that it allows the user a lot of flexibility on when to use it. In general they could use it right before they land from a fall to stay mounted or if they are running through a ton of enemies attacking to last long enough to get through it.

This makes me question if the developers even play the game. You guys are clearly romanticising this mastery a little bit to much. First of this mastery is almost useless when it comes to "running through a ton of enemies attacking", wanna know why? Because the Adroit Evasion mastery alredy takes care of it. And useing it "right before they land from a fall to stay mounted"? Is this suppost to be a joke? This would be pretty much risking death vs. just dismounting when the only place where this would be remotly usefull gets alredy covert by Masterful Descent, not to mention that you probably want to use the griffon anyway if you're that far up in which case it wouldn't even matter.

> @"Gaile Gray.6029" said:

> Another use, specific to our map, are toxic areas that apply dot damage. With the mastery, players will be able to survive long enough to get through those areas, collect the shiny rewards and get out. :)

Ah the one part where it actually does have some uses, to bad that it's another case of "to map dependent to be a good mastery", a simple heal HP up to 100% or "DoT" immunity would have achieved the same thing without any of the drawbacks.

Well at least it's better then the episode one mastery but TBH this is not much of an accomplishment...

Veteran Awakened Abomination, like no joke this is the most cancerous enemy to fight against as P/P thief (no legendary creature comes even close to the level of BS of this abomination). It's pretty much unbeatable, Unkillable at Range + attacking it = insta downstate. Yeah, that's just some ingenious enemy design right here.

There are a lot of things I'd love to see like the return of the ricochet trait or highly customizable custom rooms for PvP but if I have to choose one:

Consistently good game design across the board in regards to the reward system and the rewards themselves. Far to often have I thought to myself stuff like "This is how you do it, why can't it be the same way for X, Y and Z?" or "Why isn't there an "endless" version of this available?". For example: ghostly infusions can be obtained by buying them from the event NPC or as a random drop from the loot chest. Why can't it be the same way for let's say the piñata infusion from the casino event? The inconsistencies are real (for no reason!!!)! Addressing these flaws would add a lot replay value to content I otherwise wouldn't bother myself with after the initial playthrough.