praqtos.9035

> @"Cyninja.2954" said:

> > @"witcher.3197" said:

> > A trivial thing that nobody plays at high tier games, but all the silver 2 players are flooding the forums crying for it to be nerfed.

>

> So like Mirage 2 nerfs ago?

>

> Take a guess where this is headed. Can't say I feel sorry for anyone on the spvp boards. What goes around comes around, and excessive whining with subsequent nerfs will affect every class.

>

> Just seems to be the engineers, rangers and warriors turn once again. Don't worry, once those classes are nerfed, the complaints will move on to the next fotm class and the cycle continues.

Warrior/engi avoid getting deserved nerfs for how long ? In fact they buff holo last 2 patches, seems like the most favorite Anet child with all this attention/buffs all around

> @"flog.3485" said:

> You do realize you also invulnerability frames? On demand f4 distortion ? Blocks ? Teleports? And stealth? Actually like a thief to some extent, except you have a higher health pool.

>

> You obviously can’t rely exclusively on heals to sustain yourself.

That doesnt make bad heals any better, the only good heal I would call is mirage heal

> @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > > > > > This typical complain about mesmer "perma everything,cant beat it" is getting old, guess why all "nerf the mesmer threads" are gone? Even before they deleted dueling traits. It was very simple to beat them, as I said, if you have enough space and dont have to worry about the point. I might explain it if you need it that much

> > > > > Straw man much? All I'm saying is, Mirage's kit is well equipped to handle SlB in 1v1. SlB can win, sure, but you have to catch the Mirage off guard or simply outplay.

> > > > Thats what you tell to yourself to feel better? SLB has greater mobility/stealth/good condi cleanse/unblockables every 10 seconds/second resistance heal thats more than enough, if you struggle, thats not my problem. "Dont waste my time"

> > > I'm hardly struggling, just pointing out facts. Mirage vs SlB matchup favors the Mirage. "Good condi cleanse" good joke. The little bit of stealth is whatever. High mobility is tied to a specific pet's beastmode ability, as is the resistance, so often not accessible. Unlockable is not every ten seconds unless you drop beastmode immediately.

> > Let me coseplay you sir :

> > Mesmer has close to no access to vigor ,which was gutted in multeple ways. 2 seconds of reflect on 10 seconds cooldown "good joke", just as one stealth for 3 seconds on 30 seconds cooldown, its also tied tied to specific weapon so not so often accessible. Just as protection, you have to play specific defensive traitline and sacrifice all your damage !

> > All I can say learn to play as if you cant use your second pet or dont know ranger own traits for cleanse,lol

> Lol buddy, you can think what you want about how terrible a player I am, and to be honest you probably wouldn't be completely off base with your assumption.

>

> But if you think that Mirage can't dish out enough condis to render Wilderness Knowledge practically worthless, and that its defenses aren't sufficient to survive a bit of Soulbeast pressure... Well, either you're a god at Soulbeast, you're stark raving mad, or you simply haven't faced a decent Mirage yet.

You need a pair of glasses to see that I said when its not on point (i'm not god soulbeast and I mainly played zerk oneshot for fun)? Axe is a melee weapon, staff hadoukens never hit when you are moving on decent range. One of these had top10 title, boosted ape tbh, I agree

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

Kind of weird since mesmers were always in a far better spot then any other class and always Fotm

No matter how bad mesmer was compared to other classes back then it was still there because of a portal.

>engineer and classes like Ele have been getting nerfed and forgotten for years upon years.

Still continue to joke around ? Engineer always had meta OP level build

>@"mortrialus.3062"

>The Boosted AF Scrublord's Prayer:

Remind me of scrapper/holo/war players tbh

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Nilkemia.8507" said:

> > > > > > > > > This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec. Engineer is not, no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

> > > >

> > > > Ahh yes. So viable it was invisible.

> > > > Also value is what you stated

> > > > Their is no value in having a core mes vs any of the elites. It's value to any team is 0

> > > > And the core traits were nerfed.

> > > > Maybe engi does need trait line buffs. But that doesn't make it immune to nerfs to traits that give it too much.

> > > > It's why warrior traits were nerfed to core level. Thief traits were nerfed on a core level. Guardian, ele, necro, mes, and even rev. Their is no logical reason engi should be immune and I'm sorry but the " no one plays core engi so it's fine" is a poor defense.

> > > >

> > > > Edit: and please tell me when core rev was ever viable or added value to the team.

> > >

> > > There is rarely any value in having any core spec over any elites. Due to powercreep.

> > >

> > > When comparing engie to other classes you have to look at its playable state compared to them at a core level.

> >

> > No other class has been balanced this way. None. Yet engi is supposed to be the exception and have this luxury. Surely you can see how absurd that is.

> > > Core engineer weapons, blow. Mesmer weapons were not in this state.

> > >

> > False. Rifle and pistol/ shield have been part of almost every meta build for holo.

> >

> > > Nothing is ever immune to nerfs, looking at its current state, it never recovered from half of the nerfs the community has already cried about.

> >

> > Not many classes have and they are still nerfed. I doubt engi will be immune to it. As that will set a very dangerous standard for Anet showing blatant favouritism to one class and nerfing core traits continually on others.

>

> Because no other classes have been in the state that engineer is in.

What state? During core engi was unviable? Not true. During HoT scrapper was trash? Not true. Holo... ? Scrapper now? What state?

> Rifle is semi decent because with power it becomes a usable item, without going full power its a wet noodle. The core engineer weapons are not in a good state.

RIFLE ISNT GOOD? What the heck is this "full power", is he alright there?

> If any class is being shown any sort of favoritsm, trust me, its not engineer.

Holo needs nerfs - engi/holo getting buffed. Not favoritism ... or thats certain holo streamer cry that hard so its gets buffed ?

> @"Solori.6025" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > > > @"Nilkemia.8507" said:

> > > > > > > This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

> > > >

> > > > Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

> > > >

> > >

> > > Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec.

> >

> > Delusional as much as it can get

>

> Like. People openly made fun of ithelwen when she played core mes and came to the forums. I guess that means it had value cause one person played it?

They made fun of incissor despite him being right about revenants and they being OP. All their arguments were "condi mirage crying about rev lululu".

This kind of arguments as "it was nerfed before" has no value either, as mesmer wasnt nerfed for an entire year?

> @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > @"iKeostuKen.2738" said:

> > > > @"Solori.6025" said:

> > > > > @"Nilkemia.8507" said:

> > > > > This has to be a troll thread. Demands the nerfing of Holosmith by instead nerfing core engineer traits, conveniently forgetting the nerfs it has already taken in the past (loss of condition removal on HGH, the passive Elixer S being replaced by a worthless Elixir E, Protection Injection's cooldown being raised, which I suspect drove most to Invigorating speed if they weren't already using that, and probably far more I can't recall), and ignoring, or not caring, about the drawback and counters it does have.

> > > >

> > > > That's how other classes were balanced. Why should engi get the im special pass? Alchemy is a bloated trait line, it can withstand nerfs.

> > >

> > > Because other classes still have value to being played in their core specs. Engie does not. Before even touching the Alchemy line, they need to buff Firearms and Explosives traitlines and then abilities that haven't been touched in years. (Kits and Turrets still suffer).

> >

> > Mes was nerfed core wise to nerf an elite spec ( which didn't do anything for the complainers) even when the value of playing a core mes was 0. Engie being spared because no one plays core is just as bad an argument or reason as we should balance for "fun".

> >

>

> Mesmer was viable even without an elite spec.

Delusional as much as it can get

>no one plays it because of how weak it is, its only decent/good when paired with an elite spec.

True for nearly every core spec. Except thief

> @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > > > This typical complain about mesmer "perma everything,cant beat it" is getting old, guess why all "nerf the mesmer threads" are gone? Even before they deleted dueling traits. It was very simple to beat them, as I said, if you have enough space and dont have to worry about the point. I might explain it if you need it that much

> > > Straw man much? All I'm saying is, Mirage's kit is well equipped to handle SlB in 1v1. SlB can win, sure, but you have to catch the Mirage off guard or simply outplay.

> > Thats what you tell to yourself to feel better? SLB has greater mobility/stealth/good condi cleanse/unblockables every 10 seconds/second resistance heal thats more than enough, if you struggle, thats not my problem. "Dont waste my time"

> I'm hardly struggling, just pointing out facts. Mirage vs SlB matchup favors the Mirage. "Good condi cleanse" good joke. The little bit of stealth is whatever. High mobility is tied to a specific pet's beastmode ability, as is the resistance, so often not accessible. Unlockable is not every ten seconds unless you drop beastmode immediately.

Let me coseplay you sir :

Mesmer has close to no access to vigor ,which was gutted in multeple ways. 2 seconds of reflect on 10 seconds cooldown "good joke", just as one stealth for 3 seconds on 30 seconds cooldown, its also tied tied to specific weapon so not so often accessible. Just as protection, you have to play specific defensive traitline and sacrifice all your damage !

All I can say learn to play as if you cant use your second pet or dont know ranger own traits for cleanse,lol

> @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > This typical complain about mesmer "perma everything,cant beat it" is getting old, guess why all "nerf the mesmer threads" are gone? Even before they deleted dueling traits. It was very simple to beat them, as I said, if you have enough space and dont have to worry about the point. I might explain it if you need it that much

> Straw man much? All I'm saying is, Mirage's kit is well equipped to handle SlB in 1v1. SlB can win, sure, but you have to catch the Mirage off guard or simply outplay.

Thats what you tell to yourself to feel better? SLB has greater mobility/stealth/good condi cleanse/unblockables every 10 seconds/second resistance heal thats more than enough, if you struggle, thats not my problem. "Dont waste my time"

> @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > From what I see on the screenshot, no matter where will you go, you will die :)

> > >

> > > Actually nearly all skills are available as well as weapon swap. There's a lot he/she could do here to survive, but too busy taking "gotcha" screenshot.

> > The only way to survive would be torch 4,jump down on the point and blink so far as possible. Otherwise no matter where you go without stealth, you will be open for LB

> More or less, yeah. Dodge (gain regen and superspeed), Jaunt to lose cripple, stealth, drop to lower level, use mobility skills as necessary to gtfo. Can use a couple shatters for more vigor as needed. There is a ton in Mirage's kit to help handle situations like this, and nearly all of it was available at the moment the screenshot was taken.

Did you just said what I did ... ? And no, thats was the only way to not die. It was possible only because mesmer had torch stealth ready,otherwise would be very dead.

> > > @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > > I don't get it. Mirage is actually very strong against Soulbeast.

> > If you have a lot of space to kite and not locked on point, longbow gs is easly kills mirage, I did it many many times, even when they had perma reflect. Unstoppable union sic em memeing them for good

> There's stealth, multiple skills that break targeting, reflects, loads of vigor regen and protection, teleports to assist with LoS, and illusions to hide behind (which the arrows cannot pierce through unless the Soulbeast takes an oddball build with Marksmanship trait line.) Soulbeast's condi cleanse is very poor and cannot hold up to heavy condi pressure.

This typical complain about mesmer "perma everything,cant beat it" is getting old, guess why all "nerf the mesmer threads" are gone? Even before they deleted dueling traits. It was very simple to beat them, as I said, if you have enough space and dont have to worry about the point. I might explain it if you need it that much

>The only reason a Mirage should lose into a Soulbeast is if he was caught off guard with his kit on CD, or if he simply doesn't know how to play his class.

Oh these guys had pretty boosted ego ,because of cmirage apparently, but still die .And it was way before they nerfed "perma reflect".

>This must be why we have so many complaints about SlB, lotta ppl just have no idea how to use their kit to respond to pressure.

Or soulbeast cant play their own class and die to everything?

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> 5-6 seconds has always been outrageously out of line for a toolbelt skill or even a full on utility skill. It's indefensible and always has been.

>

> It should be 2 seconds, 3 second traited. Max. It would still be amazing and give you more than enough time to disengage, or heal, or prevent a stomp and rez. It just won't be go into stealth and disengage, then heal to full with your heal skill and 2 leaps and a blast, then use Elixir X and go into Rampage, re-engage into melee, then Throw Boulder point blank while Stealthed levels of good.

I said so. He ignored my post and that I compared to other ally stealth skills. At this point I just cba to argue with him. Elite worth toolbelt skill with ridiculous low cooldown... His "arguments" as you can try to call is like that... are dumb as hell.... Just instanuke the turret, just bomb him with tons of conditions,just kill him in stealth , just BODYBLOCK the elixir!? JUST SIDE STEP THE GIANT LASER!?

> @"Heartpains.7312" said:

> > @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > Anet dont care about mesmers

>

> Liar, else they wouldn't have "bug fixed" sword 3... if you remember the claimed bug ;)

> They care!.

Engi rifle 4 have unintended doubled range? "It was a feature"

BF can be skillfully stowed used for 0.1s evade ? "Entire skill goes on cooldown even if you interrupt it 0.001 after attempt to use" . I believe evade and damage on it was also a bug, so they fixed that too :trollface:

> @"Ironhand.9081" said:

I think a long ago I seen a thread about it...

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/68851/core-healing-skills-are-bad#latest

> @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > From what I see on the screenshot, no matter where will you go, you will die :)

>

> Actually nearly all skills are available as well as weapon swap. There's a lot he/she could do here to survive, but too busy taking "gotcha" screenshot.

The only way to survive would be torch 4,jump down on the point and blink so far as possible. Otherwise no matter where you go without stealth, you will be open for LB

> @"kin korn karn.9023" said:

> I don't get it. Mirage is actually very strong against Soulbeast.

If you have a lot of space to kite and not locked on point, longbow gs is easly kills mirage, I did it many many times, even when they had perma reflect. Unstoppable union sic em memeing them for good

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"praqtos.9035"

> > >

> > > If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

> > >

> > > Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in [this post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/910442#Comment_910442).

> > >

> > > PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

> > Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.

> > Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.

> > Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

>

> You can just pop an invuln and facetank the whole skill.

>

> The **average** human reaction time to visual stimuli is .25 seconds. It's not a meme, it's a fact. As for ping, anything under 60 is considered good. When I played on EU with 120-180 ping and I didn't have any issues dealing with PBS into Rapid Fire. If your ping is higher than 200 and you're desyncing, that's a personal issue rather than a problem with Soulbeast.

Lets call it a magic. Just as you have issues dealing with shatter mesmer and I dont :)

> Ping is just as much of an excuse as saying you have bad FPS. Don't blame the game for it.

I have fought people who are clearly lagging as hell and teleport like a ninjas and hit me through my evades. I blame the game

> Also lol I said you're wasting my time and you echoed it back to me. [_Y u copy?_ ._.](https://tenor.com/view/pepe-why-pepe-pepehands-crying-gif-12683546)

[You are still wasting our time, stop jebaiting me for responses](https://tenor.com/view/pepe-why-pepe-pepehands-crying-gif-12683546)

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> @"praqtos.9035"

>

> If you honestly think PBS into RF is some sort of 'god-combo' that can't be avoided you're wasting my time.

>

> Listen to what Flandre said about the Sic Em builds in [this post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/910442#Comment_910442).

>

> PBS into a full channel of Rapid Fire (with or without quickness) is objectively easier to avoid than a mantra greatsword shatter from stealth. Not only do you have a warning in the form of PBS but Rapid Fire takes a full 1.9 seconds to channel with quickness. The average human reaction time is .25 seconds to a visual stimuli. So, if you see yourself getting hit by Rapid Fire and decide to stand there and eat the whole thing instead of popping a defensive cooldown/dodging, you're simply a terrible player.

Who said you need to facetank entire RF to die ? May be scrapper does. You die way before RF fully channels thanks to sic em and RF and OWP hit like a truck.

Keep on memeing with average reaction time and forgetting about ping issues from both sides and desyncs. Well played.

Couldnt care less what you think about me. If thats all, then dont waste my time

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > >Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

> > > > > > Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

> > > > >

> > > > > Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

> > > > >

> > > > > The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

> > > > Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.

> > > > So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

> > >

> > > You're wrong, and you also misunderstand why base target pierce is important.

> > >

> > > - The cast time for [Confusing Images](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Confusing_Images&oldid=1738213) is 2.25 seconds.

> > > - The cast time for [Rapid Fire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire) is 2.5 seconds.

> > >

> > > Furthermore, the mesmer build that ran scepter used [Malicious Sorcery](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Sorcery). This trait reduces cast time as well as aftercast. Also, the beam (and it's damage) starts about halfway into the channel.

> > They didnt. It doesnt stack with quickness either, its not worth missing might trait stacking trait. Playing illusion traitline outside of coordinated AT with a firebrand carry is pure suicide as you have no sustain/cleanses at all

> > > After you take all of these factors into consideration, the full damage from the skill took about .9 seconds to land ((2.25 * .8) / 2). Keep in mind that the base damage on Confusing Images was 35% higher than Rapid Fire's and scaled nearly twice as high with power.

> > So its like 1 evade is more than enough to actually evade the scepter...Yet, 0.25s is not a huge difference . Even with quickness RF need more than 1 dodge to avoid. Also you arent putting yourself at any risk from ~1900 distance when to use CI you are pretty much in at melee range.

> > > As for the base target pierce, it's important because the damage can't be LoS'd by clones/players/other AI. On the other hand, the only way Rapid Fire pierces is if we run Marksmanship with [Lead the Wind](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_the_Wind) which is both unused and a viable trait ONLY on core ranger.

> > I agree but never felt like it was THAT important

> > > I have a clip from my stream where I'm full health and halfway finished channeling RF when the mesmer at 30% health starts her CI. We both finished casting at the same time even though I had quickness and she didn't. I ended up taking 10k damage from CI while she was in Mirage Cloak and I died about a second later because the confusion stacks killed me when I tried to cleanse them.

> > Why not? I dont say damage from that skill wasnt hilarious but scepter needed a rework,not just a stupid damage buff of 1 skill to insanity

>

> 1. They did. Both traits are viable but the cooldown reduction coupled with the cast time reduction on Malicious Sorcery was (and is) still a very strong choice. Also, the meta condi mirage build used dueling + illusions and was one of the most popular mesmer builds you'd come across in ranked. Calling it "pure suicide" is pretty inaccurate considering how strong it was.

Em...May be it was very popular on NA,which is still people say its amazing good when their presence on EU at p2-3 for me is close to none.

I meant chrono with a scepter, because mirage with a scepter wasnt that popular.

Inspiration/chaos was a safe bet and had no problems with cmirages . Otherwise illu/chaos vs condi comp without a frebrand = pure suicide.

> 2. In [this post](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/922724#Comment_922724), you claimed that you are "dead on the spot if you don't react instantly to Rapid Fire with getting a chance to LoS." So you were lying. Or, you're implying that Confusing Images kills you even _faster_ than instantly because you agreed that you only need one dodge to avoid it as opposed to two. Of course, only needing a single dodge to avoid CI means that you have significantly more time to react to it compared to the two dodges you need to avoid RF.

What is a lie? Being killed by quickness sic em OWB/LB4-LB2? I did it a lot and people melt close to instant. Thats a lie ? Nop.

As we speak about beam being released non wind-up VS non wind-up RF. Dont remember CI being boosted by sic em with OWP though.

> 3. Against a good player that knows how to bodyblock/use AI to LoS, the base piercing is very important.

i would rather to not count on that to actually process,identify every skill flying around especially in spamfiesta after all these expansions, and think IS IT PIERCING OR NOT?

Where is the video ?

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > >Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

> > > > Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

> > >

> > > Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

> > >

> > > The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

> > Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.

> > So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

>

> You're wrong, and you also misunderstand why base target pierce is important.

>

> - The cast time for [Confusing Images](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Confusing_Images&oldid=1738213) is 2.25 seconds.

> - The cast time for [Rapid Fire](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Rapid_Fire) is 2.5 seconds.

>

> Furthermore, the mesmer build that ran scepter used [Malicious Sorcery](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Malicious_Sorcery). This trait reduces cast time as well as aftercast. Also, the beam (and it's damage) starts about halfway into the channel.

They didnt. It doesnt stack with quickness either, its not worth missing might trait stacking trait. Playing illusion traitline outside of coordinated AT with a firebrand carry is pure suicide as you have no sustain/cleanses at all

> After you take all of these factors into consideration, the full damage from the skill took about .9 seconds to land ((2.25 * .8) / 2). Keep in mind that the base damage on Confusing Images was 35% higher than Rapid Fire's and scaled nearly twice as high with power.

So its like 1 evade is more than enough to actually evade the scepter...Yet, 0.25s is not a huge difference . Even with quickness RF need more than 1 dodge to avoid. Also you arent putting yourself at any risk from ~1900 distance when to use CI you are pretty much in at melee range.

> As for the base target pierce, it's important because the damage can't be LoS'd by clones/players/other AI. On the other hand, the only way Rapid Fire pierces is if we run Marksmanship with [Lead the Wind](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lead_the_Wind) which is both unused and a viable trait ONLY on core ranger.

I agree but never felt like it was THAT important

> I have a clip from my stream where I'm full health and halfway finished channeling RF when the mesmer at 30% health starts her CI. We both finished casting at the same time even though I had quickness and she didn't. I ended up taking 10k damage from CI while she was in Mirage Cloak and I died about a second later because the confusion stacks killed me when I tried to cleanse them.

Why not? I dont say damage from that skill wasnt hilarious but scepter needed a rework,not just a stupid damage buff of 1 skill to insanity

> @"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:

Swords here ignore the walls , engineer rifle with SHOTGUN shot ignores the walls too and instead of acting like a shotgun.A massive overcharge shot that supposed to blast things with excessive power at close range now is 1200 range "projectile". "Stealth" is not always a stealth, a high-tech technologies allows channeled skills to track you down :)

Just magic, accept it.

From what I see on the screenshot, no matter where will you go, you will die :)

> @"Curennos.9307" said:

>People say 'holosmith is OP' and then list a bunch of things that core has had since ever

Cant stop laughing because mesmer core traits and weapons are exact the same, did it stop them from being over-nerfed?

> @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > >Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

> > Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

>

> Confusing Images had a shorter cast time, higher base damage, higher power scaling, and lower cooldown than Rapid Fire while naturally piercing up to 5 targets.

>

> The only advantage RF had on CI was it's range.

Mr.Genius they both have the same cast time. CI have higher cooldown and you will never realistically see that TINY laser hit more than two people maximum 1-2 hits,more likely an accident. So hard to take it as an argument.

So the only advantage of CI is higher base damage/power scaling while having x2 less range, yet, was the only reason to play with a weapon despite it being that clunky and to use it you had to stand still(or it will most likely get interrupted)

> @"voltaicbore.8012" said:

Skill split exists. Between pvp/wvw/pve.

>Lastly, you can't claim you're a decent PvPer if you can't figure out how to avoid a 2 second channel from Rapid Fire.

Oh...dont even remind me about confusing images that has twice less range than RF.

> @"rng.1024" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

> > > @"rng.1024" said:

> > > I think you are right, especially given the elite uses 690,5 as weapon strength. I know for a fact is sidesteppable, however the time to do so is minimal and I doubt you can while staying close. I always create a gap as they enter forge to avoid the #4 projectiles or get crippled by the #2, see them charge their elite, then turn my character 90° and press W just as it fires to get out. Could be a movement speed thing as using Q or E to strafe is slower, I'm actually not sure.

> > Its not, unless you can record and reproduce (I think it doesnt matter at this point, if u can make it once in 100 attempts)

> > > You have to remember the stealth doesn't regenerate the holo in any way, if you can force the heal turret beforehand they only got Heat Therapy. The resustain is an illusion caused by the low healthpool, as any heal cause alot more recovery of total health since the total is so low. The heal is on a 20 second cooldown to boot, which is a long time to do your burst inbetween. If you interrupt or destroy the turret before they can combo (or even apply poison) then you have a massive advantage.

> > So heal from just the turret for around ~12k + out of 16k ? Your "oh its 20 seconds cd" doesnt make it look any better, its not long time since he can heal in between from therapy and vent exhaust.

> > They reworked heal-cleanses to remove conditions first before heal , good luck I guess?

> > He will blast the turret himself way before you can destroy it, its not 2k health like the mesmer clones

> > > In my experience most holosmiths are of the type "jump in and hit all buttons, leap out and heal" meaning if you mitigate their initial burst they will want to save their heal until next they enter forge, so it's best to pressure them here getting them low and make them spend it, then burst next when they forge and don't have it available.

> > PF is too spammy, most of this skill are must to dodge and PF is not the only thign you want to dodge.

> > I agree with KrHome that forge should have higher cooldowns on every skill.

> > > Why don't you think holo stealth is fine though? You don't provide cap contribution under it, it has a cast time, and you get revealed when attacking. We have reveal skills available, it needs to be properly thrown to hit and is on a higher cooldown than most utility skills even while traited.

> > Its not just holo stealth,its not fine in general, the only 6s stealth duration now is on mesmer elite, pulsing stealth as scrapper gyro elite and engi gets 6s aoe stealth on 32s cd on the toolbelt(I know its duration reduced by the trait). Other stealth skills are 2-3 seconds with 30-40 seconds cooldown on them. Engi is 5s, 40s cd AoE(6s long,32s recharge traited). That is not fine. It must be either shaved to 3s or given way higher cooldown.

>

> I can give it a go tonight no problem. How you get a 12k heal? Last I checked turret+overcharge net you barely 5k and a 3 sec water field with 1 blast, so unless you can spam 4 leaps in there you won't come near 12k. Your best bet is around 8k which is on par with alot of other skills of the same cd, unless you play something off-meta with healingpower.

@"toxic.3648" posted so many time about it even with screenshots, he confirmed thats you can do with meta rifle build.

> As for poison I'm going to keep it short:

> - Fields

> - Cover conditions

> - After cleansing burst

> - When heal skill on cd

Why wont we live in a perfect world where you can interrupt his heal/destroy his turret and vomit so many conditions so he cant cleanse ... or passive conversion...

> What other stealth skills? Come with examples and we can compare. Again I want to remind you it's 45 seconds untraited, has a cast time (unavailable if cc'ed), can be negated before it even hits and must be used on top of the engi for him to also get the benefit - that is alot of counterplay already and you want more? Even a longbow ranger has 45% more stealth from 1 skill in the same timeframe with only hunter's shot.

Ye suddenly I confused it with another elixir, not much difference tho :P

To "negate" it you must create huge projectile destruction AoE around engineer. Its hits the ground close to instant so ye, good luck having inhuman reflexes and reaction and having instant AOE projectile denial around engi.

Suddenly using elixir on top of himself is a huge downside? How cute.

Except ranger wont get stealth if you dont hit anything or you give stealth to someone else if its reflected ( shocking info: its way easier to reflect incoming projectile than creating projectile destruction AoE's around engineer)

I wouldnt care less if stealth would be 2-3 seconds at best. Compared to other utilities that gives AoE stealth for allies, this one is completely busted. Shadow refuge is 60 seconds cooldown,once you leave the area you are revealed. To get veil stealth,72 seconds cooldown, for two seconds at least you have to cross the line. They have MASSIVELY longer cooldown, both of them have a cast time, both of them have way more counter play than thow elixir, thats excuse "it must be on top of the engineer to get stealth" seems to be a joke compared to them(elixir that hitting the ground close to instant, lol)

Stealths skills you can find here https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Stealth . If you are interested of course

> We cannot just willy nilly compare skills with a recharge reduction trait to skills without, then naturally 1 seems out of balance - which is the entire incentive to pick those traits. If your issue is those traits then that's an entirely different discussion from balancing holosmith.

You are wrong, these traits not what is my issue :)

> @"Buran.3796" said:

> > @"praqtos.9035" said:

>

> > Asked multiple revenants and from playing myself ... Its still broken . Barely anything changed.

> > Heard rumors herald getting more nerfs... ?

>

> Rev can be competitive or not, but the best PvP build never changes. They can't nerf power Rev until leaves the scene (happened before), but you won't see other Rev builds filling any role in PvP. Not bothered with incoming nerfs at all...

:(

I wonder when they make staff4 QoL change...at least reduce its cast time by the half... and do something with renegade. Tried it out and dont really understand what I'm supposed to do :D

> @"rng.1024" said:

> I think you are right, especially given the elite uses 690,5 as weapon strength. I know for a fact is sidesteppable, however the time to do so is minimal and I doubt you can while staying close. I always create a gap as they enter forge to avoid the #4 projectiles or get crippled by the #2, see them charge their elite, then turn my character 90° and press W just as it fires to get out. Could be a movement speed thing as using Q or E to strafe is slower, I'm actually not sure.

Its not, unless you can record and reproduce (I think it doesnt matter at this point, if u can make it once in 100 attempts)

> You have to remember the stealth doesn't regenerate the holo in any way, if you can force the heal turret beforehand they only got Heat Therapy. The resustain is an illusion caused by the low healthpool, as any heal cause alot more recovery of total health since the total is so low. The heal is on a 20 second cooldown to boot, which is a long time to do your burst inbetween. If you interrupt or destroy the turret before they can combo (or even apply poison) then you have a massive advantage.

So heal from just the turret for around ~12k + out of 16k ? Your "oh its 20 seconds cd" doesnt make it look any better, its not long time since he can heal in between from therapy and vent exhaust.

They reworked heal-cleanses to remove conditions first before heal , good luck I guess?

He will blast the turret himself way before you can destroy it, its not 2k health like the mesmer clones

> In my experience most holosmiths are of the type "jump in and hit all buttons, leap out and heal" meaning if you mitigate their initial burst they will want to save their heal until next they enter forge, so it's best to pressure them here getting them low and make them spend it, then burst next when they forge and don't have it available.

PF is too spammy, most of this skill are must to dodge and PF is not the only thign you want to dodge.

I agree with KrHome that forge should have higher cooldowns on every skill.

> Why don't you think holo stealth is fine though? You don't provide cap contribution under it, it has a cast time, and you get revealed when attacking. We have reveal skills available, it needs to be properly thrown to hit and is on a higher cooldown than most utility skills even while traited.

Its not just holo stealth,its not fine in general, the only 6s stealth duration now is on mesmer elite, pulsing stealth as scrapper gyro elite and engi gets 6s aoe stealth on 32s cd on the toolbelt(I know its duration reduced by the trait). Other stealth skills are 2-3 seconds with 30-40 seconds cooldown on them. Engi is 5s, 45s cd AoE(6s long,32s recharge traited). That is not fine. It must be either shaved to 3s or given way higher cooldown.