Thief is totally broken now.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > Thief got highest burst dmg , stealth , alot of evades and dodges

>

> Funny considering I see power mirages, reapers axe, necros elites auto's kitten lol, ele burst, power rev bursts, dh burst and holo bursts far more and more consistently than my dp teefs 4-6k back stabs and 4k HS's. And a lot of those classes have in fight sustain out the a$$ on top. Thief pd burst can be devastating if opponent has no clears but that cuz poison and burn can be stacked to easily these days and not a isolated problem of thief but of condis as a whole.

 

Yet deadeyes still 1shoot ppl. Reaper has low mob , dh got as much hp as thief so does ele whos just squishy if not more as they have lower mobility and evades.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > @"Psycoprophet.8107" said:

> > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> > > Thief got highest burst dmg , stealth , alot of evades and dodges

> >

> > Funny considering I see power mirages, reapers axe, necros elites auto's kitten lol, ele burst, power rev bursts, dh burst and holo bursts far more and more consistently than my dp teefs 4-6k back stabs and 4k HS's. And a lot of those classes have in fight sustain out the a$$ on top. Thief pd burst can be devastating if opponent has no clears but that cuz poison and burn can be stacked to easily these days and not a isolated problem of thief but of condis as a whole.

>

> Yet deadeyes still 1shoot ppl. Reaper has low mob , dh got as much hp as thief so does ele whos just squishy if not more as they have lower mobility and evades.

 

De oneshots who? I havent been one shot by a DE for yrs. It does good burst sure but nothing else, why shouldn't it have good burst then? Theres reason it's hardly seen in comps. Dh can out burst thieves, passive burns and hss way way better sustained damage in a fight as well as defenses IF not including just running away. Reaper low Mobility? These days with speed rune and wurm/spec armor their mobility is average not low. I'm not saying thief burst is to low or needs buffed I'm just saying thief is no where a outlier in the high burst department like most rogue's are in most mmo's. I mean on my staff CS, zerg/divinity build I can stack weakness on opponent and get 8.5k vaults pretty often which definitely in my mind is great burst damage but in no way is anything special damage wise these days even from classes with more hp and sustain lol

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"kash.9213" said:

>

> > @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > > @"aleron.1438" said:

> > > > @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > > > Thief relays on spamming kitten mechanics to be viable. If this is not broken I don’t know what is. If you can engage and disengage all the time there will always be a moment where the enemy is doing a mistake while the biggest mistake a thief can make is failing to save and use stealth and port. Thiefs should be able to 1v1 without the the need to start the fight 3,4,5,6 times again. Buff thief but lower port, stealth and evade -.- As if anyone likes to play like or against that...

> > >

> > > Funny how staff mirages love to do just that: stealth, port , avoid, go OOC restart.

> > >

> > > That's with clones AND ambush with such slow auto attack staff skills that the bolt will track and hit a stealthed target.

> >

> > Yeah really funny I’m laughing right now, why is it now common here to start the statement with funny it just shows the disrespect you have in the first place. I don’t know why you try to compare it now with mirage but yes it is the same case there, this doesn’t justify anything. And that the ambush skills are bad designed is not really a question so here again why try to justify a bad design with a bad design?

> >

> > > And you know what, that's fine. I got to adapt to that as a rifle only DE. And I'm one that never resets OOC when against one player purely on personal code. I know I shouldn't in this toxic environment, but it's my choice.

> > > And you know what? Enemy mesmers love to disengage as much as daredevils and sword thieves.

> >

> > And again why does this justify anything?

> >

> > > Oh and before I forget, deadeye's only evade is dodging, roll for initiative and withdraw if they even use that last one.

> > > Rifle#4 Death's Retreat isn't an evade and never was. You still eat all the dmg while porting. And the DE porting effectiveness was nerfed since we can only use it twice now due to ini increase.

> >

> > It is not an evade but an Port xD that’s what I’m talking about. Too much Port, evade or stealth. I don’t say thief shouldn’t have access to it but it should be kitten balanced because it’s not fun to play against an DE who has access to 5+ stealth in 10 seconds...

> >

> > > Before you try pretend bewilderment as to why I keep talking about rifle deadeye here, it's because of your other feedback here so others can see:

> > > > @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > > > > @"ASP.8093" said:

> > > > > Kinda funny to see people talking about permastealth keep captures when it seems about as common as portal-bombing these days. How many keeps do you think actually get flipped by permastealth, per week?

> > > >

> > > > It’s one of the components why perma stealth shouldn’t exist. Knowing a thief is in a keep and you can do nothing about it is not something that should exist in a game and I think we can all agree to that. But I think the term „perma stealth“ also refers to the problem how much access thief has to stealth. Stealth on dodge?? Come on why is this even accepted?

> > >

> > > The Deadeye specialization has been through 3 overhauls by Anet since the beginning in trying to make it less clunky. And the current iteration of Silent Scope is the smoothest one. But it also killed off one beloved build: the DA BQoBK. Forcing them into SA M7.

> > >

> > > The current state of rifle Deadeye was a deliberate design choice to push the player into being cornered around stealth.

> > > - rifle AA#1 too slow and low DMG to free up ini to use kite around with #4

> > > - #3 ini was increased instead of lowering dmg

> > > - #4 ini was increased instead of lowering distance or add evade

> > > - Silent Scope 2s ->1s meant you could miss opportunity firing off DJ in real combat situations, reason why had to drop DA for SA

> > > - BQoBK quickness 4s -> 2s and the loss of DA meant you had to go M7 for lot less burst and more sustain

> > >

> > > So what do you end up with? Damage output centered around DJ by building malice asap with #2 x3 to M7 to dump DJ. While loitering around in stealth because it's the only means of relocation and survival despite eating all the projectiles that still track and hit you.

> > >

> > > I still hope for a 4th overhaul of DE to get out of this lock but let's be honest here. Renegade is still awaiting its overhaul and Cantha expansion will get all the time & resources.

> >

> > ? So it’s bad that deadeye is based around to much stealth or good now I’m confused? Because that’s what I’m talking about xD Thief needs a buff but the 3 mechanics I mentioned have to be turned down.

>

> There's not too much port, evade, or stealth, there's smart builds and a cautious pace. Because I don't have too much of any of that, I've adjusted my builds to be able to fight up close longer. Maybe make a thief and see what skills you can't afford to use enough and what utilities you're not taking that you'd want to because you require utilities like those aleron mentioned that make up for a weak health pool and lack of passive mitigation which incidentally make the thief appear to do those things often but it's when it counts.

>

> Stop trying to dumb down the game because you don't want to bother with your own build.

 

Overabundance of stealth and ports on mes/thief are the dumb part, bud. I think the guy is right. Thief needs a buff, but they need to shave ports and stealths from these classes. It's way too much in this game.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"aspirine.6852" said:

> Strongest defense in the game.. I agree it is totally broken..

 

Hahaha, this isn't Hide-n-Seek or even Tag. Being able to running away and hide means absolute zilch. **If you can't do it on-point, it's not defense, it's retreat and surrender.**

 

This is a combat game. Thieves aren't made for defense. Thieves are made to hunt and attack. They are predators by nature. Their "defense" is utterly unbearable offense.

 

At some point in time, they lost that, and they've never recovered.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"aspirine.6852" said:

> > Strongest defense in the game.. I agree it is totally broken..

>

> Hahaha, this isn't Hide-n-Seek or even Tag. Being able to running away and hide means absolute zilch. **If you can't do it on-point, it's not defense, it's retreat and surrender.**

>

> This is a combat game. Thieves aren't made for defense. Thieves are made to hunt and attack. They are predators by nature. Their "defense" is utterly unbearable offense.

>

> At some point in time, they lost that, and they've never recovered.

 

This is basically truth. Best defensive would be being able to sustain in a fight long enough to down ur opponent NOT disengaging. People tend to look past the fact that when a thief disengages it basically means u won the fight and now are able to take a breather as is the thief. Thief's not damaging u as it runs away lol. Let's look at this further now. Most complaints against thief are regarding it's ability to disengage when in danger of being downed, which means this happens more often than not. Imagine thief couldn't disengage and was downed the majority of times in those instances, no one would ever use the class, I'd essentially be a placeholder class lol.

[Senqu.8054]

Ah sweet the last players left in this game demand that thief should be able to contest points against bunker builds and still be the most mobile class in the game. And please justify one more time the stupid overwhelming allocation of the mechanics port, evade and stealth in one single class. Just shows how doomed we are with this game. It is a single circus now.

[kash.9213]

> @"Senqu.8054" said:

> Ah sweet the last players left in this game demand that thief should be able to contest points against bunker builds and still be the most mobile class in the game. And please justify one more time the stupid overwhelming allocation of the mechanics port, evade and stealth in one single class. Just shows how doomed we are with this game. It is a single circus now.

 

I don't think thief should be able to contest a point against a bunker build, but it should be able to kill that bunker and since it probably wont thief does need all of those mechanics in a single class. It just doesn't need overwhelming allocation of it which is good since it doesn't. The game being doomed or not kind of rests on classes that fill priority slots in team and squad compositions which admittedly are more important than thief in a team based game. That's why thief is usually the one to get looted when other classes need handicaps.

[saerni.2584]

> @"kash.9213" said:

> > @"Senqu.8054" said:

> > Ah sweet the last players left in this game demand that thief should be able to contest points against bunker builds and still be the most mobile class in the game. And please justify one more time the stupid overwhelming allocation of the mechanics port, evade and stealth in one single class. Just shows how doomed we are with this game. It is a single circus now.

>

> I don't think thief should be able to contest a point against a bunker build, but it should be able to kill that bunker and since it probably wont thief does need all of those mechanics in a single class. It just doesn't need overwhelming allocation of it which is good since it doesn't. The game being doomed or not kind of rests on classes that fill priority slots in team and squad compositions which admittedly are more important than thief in a team based game. That's why thief is usually the one to get looted when other classes need handicaps.

 

Bunker players can usually hold a point for a while or they are either a bad bunker build or a player unfamiliar with how to properly play that build. Against a good thief, the bunker will eventually be pushed off point because the thief basically can spend time free casting if the bunker doesn't kite at some point during the fight. And I do think a good thief can therefore "contest a node" even without buffs. But, the thief can't stand on the node and probably will be pushed off far sooner than the bunker will, so the net gain is completely in the bunker's favor. Of course, the thief taking that fight is silly in the first place because the bunker is performing their "role" while the thief isn't contributing to kills (which is the point of a mobile DPS).

 

As you said, the game's outcome rests a lot more on the sustain and synergy of the rest of the team's composition than whether thief has enough damage to kill a bunker (who is being outplayed) in a reasonable period of time.

 

That said, I am skeptical that thief needs much more damage. Backstab at a 2.0 coefficient is a good start as opposed to 1.8. Other than that, I'm unsure but I'm fairly confident we aren't in need of massive buffs.

[Zaraki.5784]

Not thief, stealth is.

There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

[saerni.2584]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> Not thief, stealth is.

> There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

 

What server was he?

 

FYI, you can cap a camp while he is invisible. So yeah he’s annoyingly but extremely ineffective at stopping you from doing things.

[ASP.8093]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> Not thief, stealth is.

> There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

 

This is annoying, but it's also a build that basically accomplishes about as much as "desynced player that's actually 3000 units away but your client renders him next to you."

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> Not thief, stealth is.

> There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

 

I play deadeye mostly and if 4 people turn up to take the camp I'm sat in, odds are I will lose it. If I am lucky I'll get a kill before I am forced off, but if they opponents have half a brain I'm still losing the camp, so the result if I stay and fight is basically the same as if I'd stealthed and waypointed. At least from a PPT point of view, anyways. If you're complaining that the thief didn't stay and allow you to kill him, well, I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to a kill just for showing up.

[Katelynn.6593]

As long as you have 50/50 wins it should be fine.

[Katelynn.6593]

I would argue that a thief's weakness and strength is literally their access to stealth!

 

This doesn't just apply to stealth, this applies to certain "panic button" skills in other classes as well.

 

I mean a thief who learns to survive by only using their high dodge and mobility uptake without referring to their stealth as a panic button, but rather as a button of strategy will find the class works quite well.

 

One player uses stealth to prevent rezzes. Or to stun or immobilize an enemy in a fight with a team mate. They don't use stealth because they're about to die.

 

In fact they don't get involved in 1 v 1 as much as they possibly can. Their role is to cripple the enemy so they can't defend themselves against their (the thief's) team mates killing blow!

 

PVP free for all doesn't exactly have a "team" you gotta just kind of form one by following a team mate around.

[Senqu.8054]

Lol This is exactly what I mean you guys want a killing machine that is able to be highly mobile with the most get out of the jail cards in the game and still be able to Solo a bunkers that is build to hold points. What a joke.

 

And people still wonder why this game went down the drain with devs that listen to this nonsense. For real if you die as thief and there was no other thief in the enemy team you just misplayed or got bursted from x - 0 in a not reactable time.

 

As I told you, thief needs a buff but first it has to lose the ability to be able to negate a fight as often as he wants to. It went long ago out of hand and is one of the mechanics that stayed after the huge February balance patch.

 

You guys think if the thief disengages it’s always a win for the other player but in reality it is so often the case that the thief is just able to try the fight as often as he wants till one of the two players has every defense skill on cd and the other can win. And this is also exactly why it is so damn annoying to play against thiefs. The fight itself is boring and for both players or even groups not very rewarding.

 

They are like mosquitos. One sting is not harmful but if this one guy get stuck under your blanket you have a bad time the next day. No one likes mosquitos.

 

But please tell to yourself that this playstyle or better this overwhelming use of mechanics is healthy for this game. As if we wouldn’t have enough problems with population. Let’s just maintain toxic gameplay what has not ruined this game since HOT at all /s

 

 

Why is it so common here to justify bad balanced mechanics with bad balanced metas. But as it would ever change.

 

 

 

[Zaraki.5784]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > Not thief, stealth is.

> > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

>

> What server was he?

 

FSP [EU] (but idk if we can speak about servers here, I remember mods were really strict about it).

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > Not thief, stealth is.

> > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

>

> If you're complaining that the thief didn't stay and allow you to kill him, well, I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to a kill just for showing up.

 

I'm complaining because I think every build should be able to be killed by at least another class/build or if outnumber, it was the latter case (we were 4 ppl trying to catch him!) but that thief was just impossible to kill or even catch.

[Thornwolf.9721]

> @"jgeezz.7832" said:

> With all the changes to Thief's it is officially broken. I have more HP on my Necro than i have on my thief and can duke it out even with a ranger rapid fire. On my thief i am a paper target with a sign that says shoot me cause I run deadeye. The amount of hate for deadeye build is crazy people make it seem like we can kill 10 players with 1 shot.

> Stealth is totally broken even through the DEVs and GW2 community says its not. In the past you could go into stealth when you were low health and run away to heal that is not the case anymore because if you the 1 other opponent uses and attack or ability before you stealth it still hits you and boom they see you again.

 

I've been playing thief lately, seems viable. Running DD and I dont even have stealth in my kit/build and im doing fine. Maybe stop relying on a gimmick and find solutions within the class, do some theory crafting and find something that works for you. No one can offer solutions to this issue, and I really dont think you want A-net going in and touching your class given how they've handled other "Fixes " In the past.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> >

> > What server was he?

>

> FSP [EU] (but idk if we can speak about servers here, I remember mods were really strict about it).

>

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> >

> > If you're complaining that the thief didn't stay and allow you to kill him, well, I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to a kill just for showing up.

>

> I'm complaining because I think every build should be able to be killed by at least another class/build or if outnumber, it was the latter case (we were 4 ppl trying to catch him!) but that thief was just impossible to kill or even catch.

 

That’s enough, some servers or EU vs NA have particular thieves. I’m not familiar with him in particular, as it turns out.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> >

> > What server was he?

>

> FSP [EU] (but idk if we can speak about servers here, I remember mods were really strict about it).

>

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> >

> > If you're complaining that the thief didn't stay and allow you to kill him, well, I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to a kill just for showing up.

>

> I'm complaining because I think every build should be able to be killed by at least another class/build or if outnumber, it was the latter case (we were 4 ppl trying to catch him!) but that thief was just impossible to kill or even catch.

 

True, but there is a difference between not being able to kill and not being able to catch. I guarantee that if that thief hung around and tried to juke it out with the 4 of you in an even fight he would have went down like a sack of spuds, he just didn't do that because it was clearly a foolish thing to do, and if you had a decent D/P daredevil in your group he would most likely have been killed very quickly.

[Kodama.6453]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> > >

> > > What server was he?

> >

> > FSP [EU] (but idk if we can speak about servers here, I remember mods were really strict about it).

> >

> > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> > >

> > > If you're complaining that the thief didn't stay and allow you to kill him, well, I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to a kill just for showing up.

> >

> > I'm complaining because I think every build should be able to be killed by at least another class/build or if outnumber, it was the latter case (we were 4 ppl trying to catch him!) but that thief was just impossible to kill or even catch.

>

> True, but there is a difference between not being able to kill and not being able to catch. I guarantee that if that thief hung around and tried to juke it out with the 4 of you in an even fight he would have went down like a sack of spuds, he just didn't do that because it was clearly a foolish thing to do, and if you had a decent D/P daredevil in your group he would most likely have been killed very quickly.

 

This is the thing, tho.

 

As long as you don't have a thief on your own side, it is basically impossible to kill a thief who doesn't want to get killed. Because their disengage is unmatched in this game, they are hyper mobile able to create twice the distance between themselves and every enemy that isn't a thief than these enemies are able to close.

Then on top of that hyper mobility, they also have stealth for days, which allows them to just disappear from the screen.

 

It is really annoying that thieves get to freely pick their fights, being able to disengage any time they want and there is **nothing** you can do against it as long as you are not a thief.

Even had situations in which a thief repeatedly harassed me. He wasn't able to win a fight, but he engaged on me, tried to fight me, then when he noticed that he is losing the fight he was 3000 units away from me in a matter of 2 seconds. We both healed back up, he kept stalking me from afar and when all his CDs and health recovered, he engaged me again. Same thing, he was losing the fight, instantly disengaged that far that I couldn't even bother to try to catch up for the kill. He healed back up waited for his CDs..... then did it a third time.

 

And that's the frustrating part about all this. You don't get to chose when to fight and when not, it is **all** decided by the thief player.

[kash.9213]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> > > >

> > > > What server was he?

> > >

> > > FSP [EU] (but idk if we can speak about servers here, I remember mods were really strict about it).

> > >

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> > > >

> > > > If you're complaining that the thief didn't stay and allow you to kill him, well, I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to a kill just for showing up.

> > >

> > > I'm complaining because I think every build should be able to be killed by at least another class/build or if outnumber, it was the latter case (we were 4 ppl trying to catch him!) but that thief was just impossible to kill or even catch.

> >

> > True, but there is a difference between not being able to kill and not being able to catch. I guarantee that if that thief hung around and tried to juke it out with the 4 of you in an even fight he would have went down like a sack of spuds, he just didn't do that because it was clearly a foolish thing to do, and if you had a decent D/P daredevil in your group he would most likely have been killed very quickly.

>

> This is the thing, tho.

>

> As long as you don't have a thief on your own side, it is basically impossible to kill a thief who doesn't want to get killed. Because their disengage is unmatched in this game, they are hyper mobile able to create twice the distance between themselves and every enemy that isn't a thief than these enemies are able to close.

> Then on top of that hyper mobility, they also have stealth for days, which allows them to just disappear from the screen.

>

> It is really annoying that thieves get to freely pick their fights, being able to disengage any time they want and there is **nothing** you can do against it as long as you are not a thief.

> Even had situations in which a thief repeatedly harassed me. He wasn't able to win a fight, but he engaged on me, tried to fight me, then when he noticed that he is losing the fight he was 3000 units away from me in a matter of 2 seconds. We both healed back up, he kept stalking me from afar and when all his CDs and health recovered, he engaged me again. Same thing, he was losing the fight, instantly disengaged that far that I couldn't even bother to try to catch up for the kill. He healed back up waited for his CDs..... then did it a third time.

>

> And that's the frustrating part about all this. You don't get to chose when to fight and when not, it is **all** decided by the thief player.

 

What are you packing in your build? From your perspective I'd be doing all of those things but from my perspective I've built over time for WvW and open world and I'll quickly budget my Initiative and cooldowns against you and your group or squad. You might think it's overwhelming but in most of my matchups I'm still gambling with every encounter because other people are packing control skills and they'll work together to lockdown and burst and stealth will rarely be the thing to save you. I also pack control skills to try to lock people down and I've learned to infuse secondary mods like life steal and other stuff into control because most of what I end up doing is covering myself or other people anyway.

 

The version of a thief in your head will also be in my head along with other classes and will influence how I build and travel.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > @"saerni.2584" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> > > >

> > > > What server was he?

> > >

> > > FSP [EU] (but idk if we can speak about servers here, I remember mods were really strict about it).

> > >

> > > > @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > > > > @"Zaraki.5784" said:

> > > > > Not thief, stealth is.

> > > > > There was a single thief yesterday in WvW camping a camp and whoever came by, whenever he was going to die he entered stealth FOREVER, he just stayed in stealth for a good 10 sec, then he appeared very far for only 1 sec only to reapply stealth to himself again.

> > > > > This continued for a long time then I realized it was useless to chase and I walked away.

> > > > > I repeat: **PERMASTEALTH THIEF IS BROKEN AND EXTREMELY ANNOYING TO DEAL WITH!**

> > > >

> > > > If you're complaining that the thief didn't stay and allow you to kill him, well, I'm sorry, but you're not entitled to a kill just for showing up.

> > >

> > > I'm complaining because I think every build should be able to be killed by at least another class/build or if outnumber, it was the latter case (we were 4 ppl trying to catch him!) but that thief was just impossible to kill or even catch.

> >

> > True, but there is a difference between not being able to kill and not being able to catch. I guarantee that if that thief hung around and tried to juke it out with the 4 of you in an even fight he would have went down like a sack of spuds, he just didn't do that because it was clearly a foolish thing to do, and if you had a decent D/P daredevil in your group he would most likely have been killed very quickly.

>

> This is the thing, tho.

>

> As long as you don't have a thief on your own side, it is basically impossible to kill a thief who doesn't want to get killed. Because their disengage is unmatched in this game, they are hyper mobile able to create twice the distance between themselves and every enemy that isn't a thief than these enemies are able to close.

> Then on top of that hyper mobility, they also have stealth for days, which allows them to just disappear from the screen.

>

> It is really annoying that thieves get to freely pick their fights, being able to disengage any time they want and there is **nothing** you can do against it as long as you are not a thief.

> Even had situations in which a thief repeatedly harassed me. He wasn't able to win a fight, but he engaged on me, tried to fight me, then when he noticed that he is losing the fight he was 3000 units away from me in a matter of 2 seconds. We both healed back up, he kept stalking me from afar and when all his CDs and health recovered, he engaged me again. Same thing, he was losing the fight, instantly disengaged that far that I couldn't even bother to try to catch up for the kill. He healed back up waited for his CDs..... then did it a third time.

>

> And that's the frustrating part about all this. You don't get to chose when to fight and when not, it is **all** decided by the thief player.

 

I can understand that, I guess my main thought is that this is something that will always exist as long as all the classes have differing access to mobility. Whatever has the highest mobility in the game will always have the ability to play like this because it can outrun everything else. So even if we removed thief from the game now then mirage and holo will get complained about for doing basically the same thing as what that thief player did, wouldn't they? So the entire argument seems basically pointless, as logically you'd have to nerf everything til everyone has exactly the same toolkit or it will result in no overall change whatsoever.

 

I get that it is frustrating. But unfortunately you or I finding something frustrating isn't actually a valid reason to nerf something, especially when the class is designed to do exactly the thing that is considered irritating. Pocket firebrands keeping people up in a 1v2 are frustrating, but I can't really fault someone for playing a class to it's strengths, no matter how cheesy or annoying I may find it.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Kodama.6453" said:

> It is really annoying that thieves get to freely pick their fights, being able to disengage any time they want and there is **nothing** you can do against it as long as you are not a thief.

> .....

> And that's the frustrating part about all this. You don't get to chose when to fight and when not, it is **all** decided by the thief player.

 

Honestly speaking, that's just the nature of the Thief. But the Cat-vs-Mouse game isn't limited to Thieves and GW2. The same concept is easily experienced in flight sims. Take the WWII era for example. You have slower turn-fighters such as the Spitfire, Hellcat, Bf109, and Zero, then you have the faster energy-fighters like the Mustang, Focke Wulf 190, Corsair, and Thunderbolt...

 

The entire basis of an energy-fighter's strategy was to come in on a target from a higher altitude so it would be going so fast that it could line up its guns, take the shot, and fly right past the target without ever giving its opponent an opportunity to return fire. After it passed the target, it could just continue flying away, extending the distance and regaining altitude until it had reset its initial positional advantage. Such tactics can be referred to as Hit-and-Run, Hit-and-Fade, or Boom-and-Zoom.

 

The turn-fighter, on the other hand, was all about baiting the energy fighter into giving up the safety of its speed and altitude in order to get a clean shot by using its superior maneuverability to stay out of its opponent's gunsight.

 

As long as both planes were playing their own game, the turn-fighter was absolutely at a disadvantage. While it had the ability to force difficult shots, it would always be at the mercy of the faster plane. It could not escape by outrunning... it could not counter by chasing. The energy-fighter, while virtually untouchable as long as it stayed fast, had difficulty lining up its sights on such a slippery target while at high speed.

 

The energy-fighter could very well improve its chances at getting the kill on a pass by lowering its speed in order to get guns on target, however, that would leave it much more vulnerable to the slower, more maneuverable turn-fighter. Once the energy-fighter loses its energy advantage, it is dead... but that would only happen if the pilot chose to do so. Basically, if the pilot made a mistake.

 

Which brings us back to the Thief. It is a Hit-and-Run fighter. That's its game. It's meant to harass and annoy. However, unlike airplanes, one solid burst from a Thief won't kill its target. It takes repeated "passes" for a Thief to achieve that kind of lethality. And not only does a Thief have to hit hard multiple times, it also has to avoid getting hit... because it only takes one to two bursts for the Thief to go down.

 

In such an example, the Thief is like the energy-fighter that gets forced into a turn fight. It has to in order to do any decent amount of damage, but it's extremely vulnerable when it does. Its only hope of survival is to get enough guns on target before it has to go into a defensive dive for its life... and then extend out, climb high, and repeat the whole process again and again.

 

Perhaps an even more appropriate example would be an energy-fighter versus a B-17 bomber. Yes, the fighter comes in hard and fast, and although the B-17 can't maneuver, it is tough, and it has 13 guns placed all over it, so there's constant defensive fire being shot at the fighter no matter the angle... all while the bomber is making its merry way to its target...

 

A Thief not only has to make enough successful passes/bursts against its tough target, it also has to avoid all of the defensive fire (random AoE, channeling skills, etc.) while doing so. And it has to do so within a limited time in most cases (before a point is captured, target escapes, or enemy reinforcements arrive).

 

Yes, a Thief can run away and hide all day long. A Thief player could avoid getting killed by just not logging on to play. But what's the purpose of either of those things? The game isn't about surviving, it's about capturing and defending points. In WvW, Thieves stalk prey... but for what? It's basically all they can do. Unfortunately, it's like hyenas hunting lions. The prey has a much stronger bite than the predator... it's just a matter of not getting caught by those teeth. The lion may not be able to catch the hyena, but it's a lion, so why does it even care about the existence of a lone hyena? The hyena knows it's a hyena, so it's just looking for relevance in the world.

[aleron.1438]

That was beautiful and enjoying to read. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > It is really annoying that thieves get to freely pick their fights, being able to disengage any time they want and there is **nothing** you can do against it as long as you are not a thief.

> > .....

> > And that's the frustrating part about all this. You don't get to chose when to fight and when not, it is **all** decided by the thief player.

>

> Honestly speaking, that's just the nature of the Thief. But the Cat-vs-Mouse game isn't limited to Thieves and GW2. The same concept is easily experienced in flight sims. Take the WWII era for example. You have slower turn-fighters such as the Spitfire, Hellcat, Bf109, and Zero, then you have the faster energy-fighters like the Mustang, Focke Wulf 190, Corsair, and Thunderbolt...

>

> The entire basis of an energy-fighter's strategy was to come in on a target from a higher altitude so it would be going so fast that it could line up its guns, take the shot, and fly right past the target without ever giving its opponent an opportunity to return fire. After it passed the target, it could just continue flying away, extending the distance and regaining altitude until it had reset its initial positional advantage. Such tactics can be referred to as Hit-and-Run, Hit-and-Fade, or Boom-and-Zoom.

>

> The turn-fighter, on the other hand, was all about baiting the energy fighter into giving up the safety of its speed and altitude in order to get a clean shot by using its superior maneuverability to stay out of its opponent's gunsight.

>

> As long as both planes were playing their own game, the turn-fighter was absolutely at a disadvantage. While it had the ability to force difficult shots, it would always be at the mercy of the faster plane. It could not escape by outrunning... it could not counter by chasing. The energy-fighter, while virtually untouchable as long as it stayed fast, had difficulty lining up its sights on such a slippery target while at high speed.

>

> The energy-fighter could very well improve its chances at getting the kill on a pass by lowering its speed in order to get guns on target, however, that would leave it much more vulnerable to the slower, more maneuverable turn-fighter. Once the energy-fighter loses its energy advantage, it is dead... but that would only happen if the pilot chose to do so. Basically, if the pilot made a mistake.

>

> Which brings us back to the Thief. It is a Hit-and-Run fighter. That's its game. It's meant to harass and annoy. However, unlike airplanes, one solid burst from a Thief won't kill its target. It takes repeated "passes" for a Thief to achieve that kind of lethality. And not only does a Thief have to hit hard multiple times, it also has to avoid getting hit... because it only takes one to two bursts for the Thief to go down.

>

> In such an example, the Thief is like the energy-fighter that gets forced into a turn fight. It has to in order to do any decent amount of damage, but it's extremely vulnerable when it does. Its only hope of survival is to get enough guns on target before it has to go into a defensive dive for its life... and then extend out, climb high, and repeat the whole process again and again.

>

> Perhaps an even more appropriate example would be an energy-fighter versus a B-17 bomber. Yes, the fighter comes in hard and fast, and although the B-17 can't maneuver, it is tough, and it has 13 guns placed all over it, so there's constant defensive fire being shot at the fighter no matter the angle... all while the bomber is making its merry way to its target...

>

> A Thief not only has to make enough successful passes/bursts against its tough target, it also has to avoid all of the defensive fire (random AoE, channeling skills, etc.) while doing so. And it has to do so within a limited time in most cases (before a point is captured, target escapes, or enemy reinforcements arrive).

>

> Yes, a Thief can run away and hide all day long. A Thief player could avoid getting killed by just not logging on to play. But what's the purpose of either of those things? The game isn't about surviving, it's about capturing and defending points. In WvW, Thieves stalk prey... but for what? It's basically all they can do. Unfortunately, it's like hyenas hunting lions. The prey has a much stronger bite than the predator... it's just a matter of not getting caught by those teeth. The lion may not be able to catch the hyena, but it's a lion, so why does it even care about the existence of a lone hyena? The hyena knows it's a hyena, so it's just looking for relevance in the world.

 

This is probably the best set of analogies I've seen for thief. Well done ^^