Thief is totally broken now.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"aleron.1438" said:

> That was beautiful and enjoying to read. Thank you for taking the time to write it.

 

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> This is probably the best set of analogies I've seen for thief. Well done ^^

 

Thanks! :-)

 

Now, if we can just get the Thief to be able to use Unload during gliding in PvP while wearing those fancy aviator goggles from April Fool's! :-D

 

[Dangus.6572]

Great, that proves thieves are not broken :). We can close thread now. Cya in field Lions.

 

 

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Kodama.6453" said:

> > It is really annoying that thieves get to freely pick their fights, being able to disengage any time they want and there is **nothing** you can do against it as long as you are not a thief.

> > .....

> > And that's the frustrating part about all this. You don't get to chose when to fight and when not, it is **all** decided by the thief player.

>

> Honestly speaking, that's just the nature of the Thief. But the Cat-vs-Mouse game isn't limited to Thieves and GW2. The same concept is easily experienced in flight sims. Take the WWII era for example. You have slower turn-fighters such as the Spitfire, Hellcat, Bf109, and Zero, then you have the faster energy-fighters like the Mustang, Focke Wulf 190, Corsair, and Thunderbolt...

>

> The entire basis of an energy-fighter's strategy was to come in on a target from a higher altitude so it would be going so fast that it could line up its guns, take the shot, and fly right past the target without ever giving its opponent an opportunity to return fire. After it passed the target, it could just continue flying away, extending the distance and regaining altitude until it had reset its initial positional advantage. Such tactics can be referred to as Hit-and-Run, Hit-and-Fade, or Boom-and-Zoom.

>

> The turn-fighter, on the other hand, was all about baiting the energy fighter into giving up the safety of its speed and altitude in order to get a clean shot by using its superior maneuverability to stay out of its opponent's gunsight.

>

> As long as both planes were playing their own game, the turn-fighter was absolutely at a disadvantage. While it had the ability to force difficult shots, it would always be at the mercy of the faster plane. It could not escape by outrunning... it could not counter by chasing. The energy-fighter, while virtually untouchable as long as it stayed fast, had difficulty lining up its sights on such a slippery target while at high speed.

>

> The energy-fighter could very well improve its chances at getting the kill on a pass by lowering its speed in order to get guns on target, however, that would leave it much more vulnerable to the slower, more maneuverable turn-fighter. Once the energy-fighter loses its energy advantage, it is dead... but that would only happen if the pilot chose to do so. Basically, if the pilot made a mistake.

>

> Which brings us back to the Thief. It is a Hit-and-Run fighter. That's its game. It's meant to harass and annoy. However, unlike airplanes, one solid burst from a Thief won't kill its target. It takes repeated "passes" for a Thief to achieve that kind of lethality. And not only does a Thief have to hit hard multiple times, it also has to avoid getting hit... because it only takes one to two bursts for the Thief to go down.

>

> In such an example, the Thief is like the energy-fighter that gets forced into a turn fight. It has to in order to do any decent amount of damage, but it's extremely vulnerable when it does. Its only hope of survival is to get enough guns on target before it has to go into a defensive dive for its life... and then extend out, climb high, and repeat the whole process again and again.

>

> Perhaps an even more appropriate example would be an energy-fighter versus a B-17 bomber. Yes, the fighter comes in hard and fast, and although the B-17 can't maneuver, it is tough, and it has 13 guns placed all over it, so there's constant defensive fire being shot at the fighter no matter the angle... all while the bomber is making its merry way to its target...

>

> A Thief not only has to make enough successful passes/bursts against its tough target, it also has to avoid all of the defensive fire (random AoE, channeling skills, etc.) while doing so. And it has to do so within a limited time in most cases (before a point is captured, target escapes, or enemy reinforcements arrive).

>

> Yes, a Thief can run away and hide all day long. A Thief player could avoid getting killed by just not logging on to play. But what's the purpose of either of those things? The game isn't about surviving, it's about capturing and defending points. In WvW, Thieves stalk prey... but for what? It's basically all they can do. Unfortunately, it's like hyenas hunting lions. The prey has a much stronger bite than the predator... it's just a matter of not getting caught by those teeth. The lion may not be able to catch the hyena, but it's a lion, so why does it even care about the existence of a lone hyena? The hyena knows it's a hyena, so it's just looking for relevance in the world.

 

 

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Dangus.6572" said:

> Great, that proves thieves are not broken :). We can close thread now. Cya in field Lions.

 

Haha, I definitely agree with the sentiment that Thieves are [broken!](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/broken) :p

[Senqu.8054]

Admits that thief can’t be killed because it has to many out of jail cards. Still wants more dmg without giving up one single out of jail card to even counter bunker builds on point in a meta made for bunkers. Gotta love these players nowadays.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

The health tiers always annoyed me.. especially hitting a bunker necro with two healthbars xD

 

And always felt weird that guardians got so little health.

And ofc thieves and elementalist got hit due to mobility and dmg? But I think other healthier profession can easily comoete with them there.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Phoenix the One.4071" said:

> The health tiers always annoyed me.. especially hitting a bunker necro with two healthbars xD

>

> And always felt weird that guardians got so little health.

> And ofc thieves and elementalist got hit due to mobility and dmg? But I think other healthier profession can easily comoete with them there.

 

I'm fine with low health & sustain with high damage and mobility, or with high health and sustain with low/medium damage and mobility. The things that annoy me are the ones that have medium/high health, sustain, damage and mobility all rolled into one, with stealth thrown in because why not. Looking at you, holo/soulbeast.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

> @"Jugglemonkey.8741" said:

> > @"Phoenix the One.4071" said:

> > The health tiers always annoyed me.. especially hitting a bunker necro with two healthbars xD

> >

> > And always felt weird that guardians got so little health.

> > And ofc thieves and elementalist got hit due to mobility and dmg? But I think other healthier profession can easily comoete with them there.

>

> I'm fine with low health & sustain with high damage and mobility, or with high health and sustain with low/medium damage and mobility. The things that annoy me are the ones that have medium/high health, sustain, damage and mobility all rolled into one, with stealth thrown in because why not. Looking at you, holo/soulbeast.

 

Yeah my point was also that with balnce changes and elite specs. The old reason for the health tiers seems a bit more blurred out.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

Possible solution could be equipment with negative stats.

 

Let all profession have 14k base health.

Let beserker be the best pure power equipment, with negative vitality.

Let some of the bunker affix. Come with little to none (maybe even negative) power and/or condition damage.

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"Phoenix the One.4071" said:

> Possible solution could be equipment with negative stats.

>

> Let all profession have 14k base health.

> Let beserker be the best pure power equipment, with negative vitality.

> Let some of the bunker affix. Come with little to none (maybe even negative) power and/or condition damage.

 

Or just throw a big monkey wrench into things, and give everyone equal health, but allow everyone to choose their armor class... heavy giving more durability and CC-resistance, light giving more mobility/evasion and faster attack/skill speed, and medium giving a good balance between the two. If nothing else, at least give each profession a choice of two armor classes. For example, Thieves could choose between light and medium, but be locked out of heavy (unless, perhaps, an Elite Specialization was designed around it).

[Arolandis.8360]

This class received too many damn nerfs. Now there's so little build variety and feels meh to play. As a thief you just can't survive without certain skills/traits. We're stuck with one or two decent builds.

[Lithril Ashwalker.6230]

what pisses me off that traps got gutted and turned into preparations due to the whining on forums about perma stealth trap thieves...but in pvp and wvw all i see are guardians and rangers doing the same thing...despite the REVEALED tower buffs being added. Preparations need to be traps, not a preparation. trapper runes were fun, but preparations are mediocre to not useful at all now. downtime during placing until you can activate but traps on other professions are instantly ready?...yeah i see favoritism.

[Phoenix the One.4071]

> @"Kageseigi.2150" said:

> > @"Phoenix the One.4071" said:

> > Possible solution could be equipment with negative stats.

> >

> > Let all profession have 14k base health.

> > Let beserker be the best pure power equipment, with negative vitality.

> > Let some of the bunker affix. Come with little to none (maybe even negative) power and/or condition damage.

>

> Or just throw a big monkey wrench into things, and give everyone equal health, but allow everyone to choose their armor class... heavy giving more durability and CC-resistance, light giving more mobility/evasion and faster attack/skill speed, and medium giving a good balance between the two. If nothing else, at least give each profession a choice of two armor classes. For example, Thieves could choose between light and medium, but be locked out of heavy (unless, perhaps, an Elite Specialization was designed around it).

 

Bold idea, but I like it.

[NuhDah.9812]

> @"Lithril Ashwalker.6230" said:

> what pisses me off that traps got gutted and turned into preparations due to the whining on forums about perma stealth trap thieves...but in pvp and wvw all i see are guardians and rangers doing the same thing...despite the REVEALED tower buffs being added. Preparations need to be traps, not a preparation. trapper runes were fun, but preparations are mediocre to not useful at all now. downtime during placing until you can activate but traps on other professions are instantly ready?...yeah i see favoritism.

 

I understand this "favoritism" you are talking about, but on the other hand, traps are and always were the most brain dead utilities in the game. You need no skill to place some, than leave or do whatever, while they do the job for you instead. They are somewhat like ranger pets, but also in stealth. That being said, if they are used as an utility mecanic that gives you a strategic advantage (e.g. shadow trap), they would be ok (not sure if "trap" would be a fitting name for such though, but with some that are used for crowd control with low or 0 dmg it might), but if they are made to inflict tones of dmg to the enemy, be it condi or power, while also adding tones of control effects and letting them stack... As I said, bad design.

[YoRHa.4105]

I am new player and played this game for 2 weeks~, and the only class i have serious issue dealing with is thief.

 

This class have good burst both melee and range and also godlike mobility, survivability, i play on 200ping and if a thief jump on me i start the fight with 50% hp in few sec, burn my cds then i go back to spawn point if the thief wanted to shit on me, i have very little chance of surviving.

 

And it is the only class where sometime i cant even react to the burst and die very quickly.

 

Sometime i just alt f4 after the game and refuse to click gw2 until some break.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Nerf Thief by -5 basic movement speed

 

I think Thiefs approaching me too fast

[saerni.2584]

> @"YoRHa.4105" said:

> I am new player and played this game for 2 weeks~, and the only class i have serious issue dealing with is thief.

>

> This class have good burst both melee and range and also godlike mobility, survivability, i play on 200ping and if a thief jump on me i start the fight with 50% hp in few sec, burn my cds then i go back to spawn point if the thief wanted to kitten on me, i have very little chance of surviving.

>

> And it is the only class where sometime i cant even react to the burst and die very quickly.

>

> Sometime i just alt f4 after the game and refuse to click gw2 until some break.

 

Make a thief. Try to kill people. You’ll see pretty soon why they were doing the damage they did to you and how to fight them.

 

You can hit harder than the thief with more sustain. Just need to know when to use your skills.

[NuhDah.9812]

Also you'll usually encounter fairly experienced people using thief, since it's not that easy of a profession to handle as a beginner. You can't expect to be able to beat experienced players after 2 weeks.

[Skada.1362]

> @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> Also you'll usually encounter fairly experienced people using thief, since it's not that easy of a profession to handle as a beginner. You can't expect to be able to beat experienced players after 2 weeks.

 

For years i never understood why people always said this about Thief specifically, like it's some sort of "master" class. Thief is one of the most beginner friendly classes in the entire game, especielly if you pick Daredevil. It has no confusing mechanics or traits like say, Herald, no requirement to swap kits and attunements back and forth to perform well like Engi or Ele, you don't really need to swap weapons even or manage cooldowns at all even, thanks to how initiative works and most of your abilities are tab target. I always recommend new gw2 players to pick Thief since it's a selfish (in a good way) class with easy to understand and execute mechanics.

 

But yeah, regarding experienced players, i get what you're saying but that goes for any class and any build really. Thief main btw.

[lare.5129]

"broke" is commond words. Each understand that by himself way. So someone thief have to low damage, someone think what incise is op, especially till moment than try do it himself.. =)

Someone think that dagger 3 is to low, others opposite.

I don't see some big thing on thief, normal class with some bonuses and fails. Should we try find some balance for thief? strong NO. We already have mmr system on spvp, on wvw - blob versus solo, on pve - we have meta. So situation is fine.

[NuhDah.9812]

> @"Skada.1362" said:

> > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > Also you'll usually encounter fairly experienced people using thief, since it's not that easy of a profession to handle as a beginner. You can't expect to be able to beat experienced players after 2 weeks.

>

> For years i never understood why people always said this about Thief specifically, like it's some sort of "master" class. Thief is one of the most beginner friendly classes in the entire game, especielly if you pick Daredevil. It has no confusing mechanics or traits like say, Herald, no requirement to swap kits and attunements back and forth to perform well like Engi or Ele, you don't really need to swap weapons even or manage cooldowns at all even, thanks to how initiative works and most of your abilities are tab target. I always recommend new gw2 players to pick Thief since it's a selfish (in a good way) class with easy to understand and execute mechanics.

>

> But yeah, regarding experienced players, i get what you're saying but that goes for any class and any build really. Thief main btw.

 

If I would voice my opinion on why people say this, is that thief/drd is not a profession you can just take out there in the field and mash some buttons, abuse aoe and range, and take down other stuff just with a little kiting and tones of sustain. If you play thief the setups you need to do are a bit more complex and the way you time your dodges and your burst matters, otherwise you're going to be done fairly easily. Yes, thieves have a lot of defensive tools at it's disposal, at least some more duelist oriented builds, but most beginners think that if you can stealth you are immortal and can be wasteful with your initiative and cooldowns, which is not the case for more experienced players, and those things are not something that most players learn and get the feel of overnight. At least this is my take on it. To just start to play thief you'll need some basic understanding of combos, positioning and overall game mechanics to know what to dodge or not to be able to survive. Meanwhile other professions can be just taken as they are and be fairly efficient even without knowing all that stuff.

[Skada.1362]

> @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > @"Skada.1362" said:

> > > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > Also you'll usually encounter fairly experienced people using thief, since it's not that easy of a profession to handle as a beginner. You can't expect to be able to beat experienced players after 2 weeks.

> >

> > For years i never understood why people always said this about Thief specifically, like it's some sort of "master" class. Thief is one of the most beginner friendly classes in the entire game, especielly if you pick Daredevil. It has no confusing mechanics or traits like say, Herald, no requirement to swap kits and attunements back and forth to perform well like Engi or Ele, you don't really need to swap weapons even or manage cooldowns at all even, thanks to how initiative works and most of your abilities are tab target. I always recommend new gw2 players to pick Thief since it's a selfish (in a good way) class with easy to understand and execute mechanics.

> >

> > But yeah, regarding experienced players, i get what you're saying but that goes for any class and any build really. Thief main btw.

>

> If I would voice my opinion on why people say this, is that thief/drd is not a profession you can just take out there in the field and mash some buttons, abuse aoe and range, and take down other stuff just with a little kiting and tones of sustain. If you play thief the setups you need to do are a bit more complex and the way you time your dodges and your burst matters, otherwise you're going to be done fairly easily. Yes, thieves have a lot of defensive tools at it's disposal, at least some more duelist oriented builds, but most beginners think that if you can stealth you are immortal and can be wasteful with your initiative and cooldowns, which is not the case for more experienced players, and those things are not something that most players learn and get the feel of overnight. At least this is my take on it. To just start to play thief you'll need some basic understanding of combos, positioning and overall game mechanics to know what to dodge or not to be able to survive. Meanwhile other professions can be just taken as they are and be fairly efficient even without knowing all that stuff.

 

I feel completely opposite of what you feel. I have told guildies to try thief out and given them some copy paste shadow arts daredevil build and they immediately become killing machines compared to their mains. You just kinda need to learn how to precast backstab into steal/swipe/shadowstep and learn how to 3-4 leap through a smoke field, and this is done in 30 mins or so. For years I've heard other thief mains talk up their class as some kind of master brain class which I simply do not believe the thief is, at all. I believe that thief, especially daredevil is one of, if not the most low effort high reward class in the game and have been for quite some time. Opinions I guess...

[NuhDah.9812]

> @"Skada.1362" said:

> > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > @"Skada.1362" said:

> > > > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > > Also you'll usually encounter fairly experienced people using thief, since it's not that easy of a profession to handle as a beginner. You can't expect to be able to beat experienced players after 2 weeks.

> > >

> > > For years i never understood why people always said this about Thief specifically, like it's some sort of "master" class. Thief is one of the most beginner friendly classes in the entire game, especielly if you pick Daredevil. It has no confusing mechanics or traits like say, Herald, no requirement to swap kits and attunements back and forth to perform well like Engi or Ele, you don't really need to swap weapons even or manage cooldowns at all even, thanks to how initiative works and most of your abilities are tab target. I always recommend new gw2 players to pick Thief since it's a selfish (in a good way) class with easy to understand and execute mechanics.

> > >

> > > But yeah, regarding experienced players, i get what you're saying but that goes for any class and any build really. Thief main btw.

> >

> > If I would voice my opinion on why people say this, is that thief/drd is not a profession you can just take out there in the field and mash some buttons, abuse aoe and range, and take down other stuff just with a little kiting and tones of sustain. If you play thief the setups you need to do are a bit more complex and the way you time your dodges and your burst matters, otherwise you're going to be done fairly easily. Yes, thieves have a lot of defensive tools at it's disposal, at least some more duelist oriented builds, but most beginners think that if you can stealth you are immortal and can be wasteful with your initiative and cooldowns, which is not the case for more experienced players, and those things are not something that most players learn and get the feel of overnight. At least this is my take on it. To just start to play thief you'll need some basic understanding of combos, positioning and overall game mechanics to know what to dodge or not to be able to survive. Meanwhile other professions can be just taken as they are and be fairly efficient even without knowing all that stuff.

>

> I feel completely opposite of what you feel. I have told guildies to try thief out and given them some copy paste shadow arts daredevil build and they immediately become killing machines compared to their mains. You just kinda need to learn how to precast backstab into steal/swipe/shadowstep and learn how to 3-4 leap through a smoke field, and this is done in 30 mins or so. For years I've heard other thief mains talk up their class as some kind of master brain class which I simply do not believe the thief is, at all. I believe that thief, especially daredevil is one of, if not the most low effort high reward class in the game and have been for quite some time. Opinions I guess...

 

Maybe your guildies could pull of something like that cause they aren't 2 weeks old into this game, I can guess they are all playing for at least a few years now. But the person quoted mentioned they played the game only for 2 weeks. Now go back to when you were only 2 weeks into the game and tell me you could pull off any of what you said you do in 30 minutes.

[kash.9213]

> @"Skada.1362" said:

> > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > @"Skada.1362" said:

> > > > @"NuhDah.9812" said:

> > > > Also you'll usually encounter fairly experienced people using thief, since it's not that easy of a profession to handle as a beginner. You can't expect to be able to beat experienced players after 2 weeks.

> > >

> > > For years i never understood why people always said this about Thief specifically, like it's some sort of "master" class. Thief is one of the most beginner friendly classes in the entire game, especielly if you pick Daredevil. It has no confusing mechanics or traits like say, Herald, no requirement to swap kits and attunements back and forth to perform well like Engi or Ele, you don't really need to swap weapons even or manage cooldowns at all even, thanks to how initiative works and most of your abilities are tab target. I always recommend new gw2 players to pick Thief since it's a selfish (in a good way) class with easy to understand and execute mechanics.

> > >

> > > But yeah, regarding experienced players, i get what you're saying but that goes for any class and any build really. Thief main btw.

> >

> > If I would voice my opinion on why people say this, is that thief/drd is not a profession you can just take out there in the field and mash some buttons, abuse aoe and range, and take down other stuff just with a little kiting and tones of sustain. If you play thief the setups you need to do are a bit more complex and the way you time your dodges and your burst matters, otherwise you're going to be done fairly easily. Yes, thieves have a lot of defensive tools at it's disposal, at least some more duelist oriented builds, but most beginners think that if you can stealth you are immortal and can be wasteful with your initiative and cooldowns, which is not the case for more experienced players, and those things are not something that most players learn and get the feel of overnight. At least this is my take on it. To just start to play thief you'll need some basic understanding of combos, positioning and overall game mechanics to know what to dodge or not to be able to survive. Meanwhile other professions can be just taken as they are and be fairly efficient even without knowing all that stuff.

>

> I feel completely opposite of what you feel. I have told guildies to try thief out and given them some copy paste shadow arts daredevil build and **they immediately become killing machines** compared to their mains. You just kinda need to learn how to precast backstab into steal/swipe/shadowstep and learn how to 3-4 leap through a smoke field, and this is done in 30 mins or so. For years I've heard other thief mains talk up their class as some kind of master brain class which I simply do not believe the thief is, at all. I believe that thief, especially daredevil is one of, if not the most low effort high reward class in the game and have been for quite some time. Opinions I guess...

 

I think you're not being honest, or you're attributing the ability for any players to clear trash to a class. I can take any class out into EBG and jump on some runners and do alright, but even an average WvW player will size up your grasp of that class pretty quick and let you gas out and walk into stuff.

[Yasai.3549]

I like how this thread is still going with back and forths about Thief.

 

Admit it guys, Thief was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

It all stems from the Initiative system that is impossible to balance without a minor tweak either wrecking the profession or making it unreasonably powerful.

 

So what was done instead was to hammer the skills that were governed by the Ini system.

 

Compare Ini skills to their same versions not even 2 years ago, and yu will see how drastically weaker it has been made.

 

But no, instead of restoring power to some of these skills and sit down and find a good way to balance Ini system, they decide to just slap whatever is popular or "problematic" and call it a day.

 

 

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Yasai.3549" said:

> Compare Ini skills to their same versions not even 2 years ago, and yu will see how drastically weaker it has been made.

 

To be fair, this is true of literally every profession.