Thief changes suggestions

[Shiyo.3578]

~~No changes to condi thief condi damage because I assume it's going to get removed from the game in the upcoming patch(hopefully).~~

 

Global changes

* Stealth no longer stacks duration.

 

Weapon Changes

* Infiltrators Strike: Increased swiftness duration to 10 seconds

* Infiltrators Return: added 30 second cooldown. Now removes 3 conditions and breaks stun.

* Flanking Strike: No longer evades, now 10% faster and deals 10% more damage

* Larcenous Strike: Damage bonus when no boons increased to 30% damage. Base damage increased by 10%

* Pistol whip: Evade removed, damage increased by 30% in PvE only.

* Slice, slash, crippling strike: Damage increased by 10%

* Tactical strike: Damage increased by 5%

* Choking gas: No longer dazes, initiative cost reduced to 4.

* Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost to 2, removes 2 conditions, heals you for 100 and no longer evades.

* Dust strike: Now pulses blind every second for 3 seconds. Initiative cost increased to 5, damage reduced by 30%.

* Vault: No longer an evade in PvP and WvW.

* Death Blossom: No longer an evade in PvP and WvW. No longer applies bleeding, instead transfers up to 3 conditions onto nearby enemies. Power damage increased by 30% in PvE only.

* Backstab: Damage increased by 5%

* Malcious Backstab: Damage bonus per malice reduced to 1% in PvP and WvW only.

 

Trait Changes

 

Shadow Arts

* Meld with shadows: No longer increases stealth duration in PvP and WvW.

* Leeching Venoms: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.

* Shadow siphoning: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.

* Cloaked in shadow: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.

Utility Changes

* Skelk Venom: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.

 

Deadly Arts

* Serpent's Touch: No longer apply poison when in downed state.

* Mug: Removed. Replaced with Duality

* Duality: Dual skills deal 10% more damage

* Panic Strike: Removed. Replaced with Duplex.

* Duplex: Dual skills cost 1 less initiative

* Improvisation: Removed. Replaced by Lead Attacks.

* Lead Attacks: Increases damage by 1% and condition damage by 1% per initiative spent. Stacks up to 15 times.

 

Critical Strikes

* Keen-Observer removed. Replaced with Assassin's Training.

* Assassin's Training: Your mastery in the art of assassination increases your critical strike chance by 5% at all times.

* Sundering Shade: Reworked. Now causes your next stealth attack to deal 25% additional critical damage after using a dual attack. After using a stealth attack your next dual attack deals 25% additional critical damage. 10% in PvP and WvW.

* Twin fangs: Removed health requirement for the bonus critical hit damage.

* Invigorating Precision: Reduced to 2.5% without fury and 5% with fury in PvP and WvW only.

* Ferocious strikes: Changed to deal 5% more increased critical damage.

* Hidden Killer: Added 10% bonus damage to your next 2 attacks after exiting stealth. Counts for stealth attacks.

 

Trickery

* Lead attacks removed. Changed to Contemplate.

* Contemplate: Using initiative grants you 1% increased boon duration, stacking up to 10 times and +120 concentration at all times.

* Quick pockets: Now shares your boons with nearby allies when swapping weapons.

 

Acrobatics

* Expeditious Dodger removed. Replaced with Sword Play.

* Sword Play: Gain 10 power and 10 ferocity every time you attack. Stacks up to 10 times.

* Vigorous Recovery: Removed. Replaced with Dueling.

* Dueling: Successfully landing a hit with any attack reduces the initiative cost of your next dual skill by 1. Stacks up to 5 times.

* Guarded Initiation: Removed. Replaced with Turn the Tides.

* Turn the Tides: Being hit by damaging condition(Poison, Burn, Confuse, Torment, Bleed) grants you 3 seconds of vigor and 1 initiative. 3 second cooldown.

* Don't Stop: removed. Replaced with fencer.

* Fencer: Increases your attack speed with sword attacks and dual sword attacks by 25%. Stacks with quickness.

 

 

Daredevil:

* Swipe now heals for 2.5k if it successfully lands

* Havoc Specialist: Now grants 10% bonus damage at all times, and 2% per missing endurance bar.

* Bounding Dodger: Now uses the 15% damage increase in all game modes.

* Lotus Training: Now uses the 15% condition damage increase in all game modes.

 

Utilities

* Withdraw: No longer an evade. Reduced cooldown to 15 seconds in WvW and PvP only.

* Shadowstep: No longer breaks stun or removes conditions. Cooldown reduced to 30 seconds.

* Caltrops: No longer bleeds. Applies 5 seconds of weakness , 5 seconds of blind and breaks stun. Cooldown reduced to 25 seconds.

* Shadows Refuge: No longer pulses stealth, instead instantly applies 4 seconds of stealth and pulses 33% damage and condition damage reduction as well as regeneration instead. Cooldown reduced to 40 seconds.

* Assassin's Signet: Reduced active power from 540 to 100 in PvP and WvW only.

* Bandit's Defense: Duration increased to 3 seconds.

* Dagger Storm: No longer an evade, now a projectile reflect only again.

* Shadow Meld: No longer removes revealed.

[saerni.2584]

For a “thief main” your suggestions seem really poorly thought out.

 

I can summarize your suggestions: 1) nerf condi thief, 2) nerf stealth anything thief, 3) nerf evade thief, 4) nerf non-sword thief damage (Assassins Signet to 100), 5) buff sword-acro Daredevil, 6) nerf Deadeye.

 

Basically, you appear to want to remove every other thief gameplay style from the game except the one you like to play (Pistol Whip +30% PvE damage lol).

[Shiyo.3578]

Not really, I don't even play sword. Right now thief gets all it's damage from it's utility(trickery) and healing/stealth(shadow arts) trait lines in PvP so I removed all the damage from them and put them in their pure damage trait lines.

 

Perma stealth is an issue, evade spam is an issue, condi thief is an issue. Acro is a useless trait line so it got some more use for PvP AND PvE. Counters to counters is bad design so I removed the reveal removal from shadow meld.

 

I buffed their damage in PvE for every single weapon with trait lines AND weapon buffs on sword and dagger(backstab). Pistol whip is a DPS loss over auto-attacking so yes, it needs a gigantic buff.

 

Overall I don't see how these changes aren't good for the health of the class in every game mode and would open up more options. You'd even be able to play glassy base thief in PvP and do actual damage. Daredevil would be the much tankier option having mug for free, too!

[AikijinX.6258]

lol.

 

That was quite a read, and sadly knowing anet, they'd probably agree with most if not all these changes.

 

Erase Stealth, Erase Evade, Erase Thief, that's your stance?

[Shiyo.3578]

> @"AikijinX.6258" said:

> lol.

>

> That was quite a read, and sadly knowing anet, they'd probably agree with most if not all these changes.

>

> Erase Stealth, Erase Evade, Erase Thief, that's your stance?

 

All of those things are an issue and hold the class back.

[saerni.2584]

Shadow Arts adds very little damage. You get a lot more damage from Deadly Arts/Critical Strikes or from Daredevil/Deadeye though their elite mechanics. My negative reaction is mainly that your response to stealth and evade (the two damage mitigation methods for thief) is to suggest basically just removing entire traitlines and skills from the game. And by “removing the damage” and “removing the stealth” from Shadow Arts makes me wonder what is actually left of the traitline in your version of “balance.” Permastealth and super evade can be an issue. That doesn’t mean you should remove core aspects of thief game design (ie don’t throw the baby out with the bath water).

 

Trickery...that’s a bit of a mess of a traitline. It adds in fury, swiftness, extra initiative, maybe some vigor or an extra cleanse, daze on steal with a cooldown reduction, or you can do condi on interrupt and steal. It’s a bit of something for everyone, which is why it is such a required traitline for so many builds. Moving the damage out of Trickery doesn’t change this.

 

I don’t disagree sword needs buffs. I just think a 25% bonus attack speed trait isn’t the right way to go about it. Sword should either hit hard enough to justify a slow attack speed or have a faster baseline.

[AikijinX.6258]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"AikijinX.6258" said:

> > lol.

> >

> > That was quite a read, and sadly knowing anet, they'd probably agree with most if not all these changes.

> >

> > Erase Stealth, Erase Evade, Erase Thief, that's your stance?

>

> All of those things are an issue and hold the class back.

 

Stealth and Evades hold the class back? (A Class that's supposed to be very evasive slippery and stealthy)

Explain.

[Shiyo.3578]

Shadow arts adds a bit damage, actually. You get so much leech every time you blind/stealth. It also doesn't help that, while it's not a lot of damage, crit strikes and deadly arts give almost no damage in PvP for power builds. My changes give a lot of damage in deadly arts and crit strikes for PvP so you can trade sustain for damage as they intended.

 

Thief still has daredevil for lots of evades and utilities like shadowstep/bandits defense and shortbow 3.

 

Stealth is completely and utterly broken right now. It was meant to be used short-term which is why you can stealth mid combat in GW2. You are absolutely not meant to run around the map perma stealthed, which you can currently do. This NEEDS to be hard changed.

 

Removing damage out of trickery is more for PvE. Just didn't feel right being in that tree. This probably ends up being a global PvE buff which thief needs.

 

The attack speed was meant to synergize with the other traits in acro for sword, and to be unique.

[Astyrah.4015]

but if you delete stealth and evades.. will it still be the thief described in: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Thief ?

 

as a PvE-only person, imo to begin with, what thief really needs is to have initiative costs looked at.

 

then the dps on least used weapons (like sword for PvE) so they'll be more viable.

 

outside of stacking stealth, we don't have much group utility or buffs to offer and the ones we can share, other classes/specs already do and do it better, so just a small DPS increase across the board for us is what's needed imo.

 

and of course keep PvE changes away from WvW/PvP and vice-versa

[Shiyo.3578]

Stealth isn't deleted, it's just balanced and fair. You'd still have plenty of evades..

[Highlie.7641]

Nice troll thread, got a few laughs from me.

 

"I don’t disagree sword needs buffs. I just think a 25% bonus attack speed trait isn’t the right way to go about it. Sword should either hit hard enough to justify a slow attack speed or have a faster baseline."

 

Straight damage buff's won't work anymore, people underestimate just how decent thieves healing is when mixed with evades. Basically we need a way to increase damage over time. It's to bad they added so much boon conversion, adding vulnerbility to slash, slice and crippling slash probably would of been the best solution.

 

(Talking from a Spvp standpoint)

[Kodama.6453]

I gotta say that your trait suggestions especially for acrobatics are extremely unlikely, to say the least.

 

1. You are suggesting **multiple** traits here (if I am not mistaken 3) which are solely buffing sword and no other weapon type. No class in the game has multiple traits affecting just one single weapon, they at max have 1 trait buffing the weapon directly, then some other traits which buff general effects and therefore the weapon indirectly.

2. You are replacing a **minor** trait with something specifically only working with sword (expeditious dodger -> sword play), which is a design that shouldn't happen. Having major traits buffing specific weapons is fine, since major traits are something you chose. Minor traits on the other hand are not a choice, if you run the specific trait line, then you get these traits by default. Which means that picking acrobatics for thief here would lead to 2 scenarios. Either you use a sword for your build and get the benefit from it, or you don't use a sword which means that you have a dead trait forced into your build if you want to use acrobatics. This isn't good design, you are forcing to always run sword while using acrobatics or take the punishment by having a useless trait.

3. Having a minor trait that gives power and ferocity in acrobatics makes no sense. Acrobatics isn't a power damage trait line, it is a survival trait line which is supposed to enhance your dodges, refill your endurance (either directly or through vigor) and improve your mobility.

 

 

[Shiyo.3578]

Acrobatics in general makes no sense, it's just a bad daredevil trait line.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@"Shiyo.3578" stealth not stacking duration would be tragic for thief, but it would make the game more fun for most tbh.

having both teams stealth mid for 20s every time is stupid honestly.

What they could do is make sb2 and HS cost 1 more ini AND refund that 1 ini when it hits an enemy, they could do something similar with p5, that would reduce stealth durations massively without the insane no stealth stacking thing.

In similar note, instead of removing evades across the board they could make them cost more and refund ini when you evade something, in turn they up some of thiefs sustain damage.

90% venoms nerf is too much, I know its utility traitline but it wont be good with utility alone.

Anet could also move 3 cleanse from shadowstep return to first cast, making using it as offensive tool more punishing if you fail.

Add some risk to the class, RN it has too much get out of jail free cards imo. and make it more interactive.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > @"AikijinX.6258" said:

> > lol.

> >

> > That was quite a read, and sadly knowing anet, they'd probably agree with most if not all these changes.

> >

> > Erase Stealth, Erase Evade, Erase Thief, that's your stance?

>

> All of those things are an issue and hold the class back.

 

Thief is an issue that holds thief back? xD

 

From reading the changes you make, it's pretty clear that you actually want to play revenant, not thief. Can I suggest you go play that class instead of butchering this one? Ta muchly.

[Tharan.9085]

> @"Highlie.7641" said:

> Nice troll thread, got a few laughs from me.

>

> "I don’t disagree sword needs buffs. I just think a 25% bonus attack speed trait isn’t the right way to go about it. Sword should either hit hard enough to justify a slow attack speed or have a faster baseline."

>

> Straight damage buff's won't work anymore, people underestimate just how decent thieves healing is when mixed with evades. Basically we need a way to increase damage over time. It's to bad they added so much boon conversion, adding vulnerbility to slash, slice and crippling slash probably would of been the best solution.

>

> (Talking from a Spvp standpoint)

 

It's not even a troll thread sadly, this guy is dead serious

[MysteryMen.3791]

Shiyo stop making such baseless suggestions. You completely delete every facet of thief making it a completely unplayable class. Did a thief farm you in ranked or something? This is a really REALLY bad suggestion in every way.

[YuiRS.8129]

No thanks, those are bad.

[Shiyo.3578]

I know my suggestions are good when it makes people respond emotionally.

> @"MysteryMen.3791" said:

> Shiyo stop making such baseless suggestions. You completely delete every facet of thief making it a completely unplayable class. Did a thief farm you in ranked or something? This is a really REALLY bad suggestion in every way.

 

I am a thief. The class is absurdly overpowered and dictates the entire meta.

 

I'd prefer actual criticism and discussions, not "xd ur dumb and must be trolling because you have a DIFFERENT OPINION than me(this doesn't mean someone is trolling, btw) delete your account".

 

The "your percentages are too high/not high enough" is fine, those are just random numbers. The point is those abilities need to be buffed/nerfed by some amount to make them weaker/stronger.

[BobbyT.7192]

> @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> No changes to condi thief condi damage because I assume it's going to get removed from the game in the upcoming patch(hopefully).

>

> Global changes

> * Stealth no longer stacks duration.

>

> Weapon Changes

> * Infiltrators Strike: Increased swiftness duration to 10 seconds

> *~~ Infiltrators Return: added 10 second cooldown~~

> * Flanking Strike: ~~No longer evades,~~now 10% faster and deals 10% more damage

> * Larcenous Strike: Damage bonus when no boons increased to 30%, damage. Base damage increased by 10%

> * Pistol whip: ~~Evade removed~~, damage increased by 30% in PvE only.

> * Slice, slash, crippling strike: Damage increased by 10%

> * Tactical strike: Damage increased by 5%

> * Choking gas: ~~No longer dazes~~ initiative cost reduced to 4.

> * Debilitating Arc: Reduced initiative cost to 2, removes a condition ~~and no longer evades~~.

> * Dust strike: Now pulses blind every second for 3 seconds. ~~Initiative cost increased to 5~~, damage reduced by 30%.

> * Vault: No longer an evade in PvP and WvW.

> * Backstab: Damage increased by 5%

> * ~~Malcious Backstab: Damage bonus per malice reduced to 1% in PvP and WvW only.~~

>

> Trait Changes

>

> Shadow Arts

> * Concealing restoration:~~ No longer grants stealth when using a healing skill in PvP or WvW, instead~~ using a healing skill applies 2 stacks of skelk venom to yourself and nearby allies.

> * ~~Hidden Thief: No longer grants stealth on steal in PvP and WvW.~~

> * Meld with shadows: No longer increases stealth duration in PvP and WvW.

> *~~Leeching Venoms: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.~~

> *~~Shadow siphoning: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.~~

> *~~ Cloaked in shadow: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.~~

> Utility Changes

> * ~~ Skelk Venom: damaged reduced by 90% in PvP and WvW, still heals for the same amount despite this change.~~

>

> Deadly Arts

> * ~~Serpent's Touch: No longer apply poison when in downed state.~~

> * ~~Mug: Removed. Replaced with Duality~~

> ~~Duality: Dual skills deal 10% more damage~~

> * ~~Panic Strike: Removed. Replaced with Duplex.~~

> * ~~Duplex: Dual skills cost 1 less initiative~~ (they had a trait like this back in Beta, and it became insta slotted and made the thief extra spammy)

> * Improvisation: Removed. Replaced by Lead Attacks.

> *Lead Attacks: Increases damage by 1% and condition damage by 1% per initiative spent. Stacks up to 15 times.

>

> Critical Strikes

> * Keen-Observer removed. Replaced with Assassin's Training.

> * ~~Assassin's Training: Your mastery in the art of assassination increases your critical strike chance by 5% at all times.~~

> * Twin fangs: Removed health requirement for the bonus critical hit damage.

> *~~ Invigorating Precision: Reduced to 2.5% without fury and 5% with fury in PvP and WvW only.~~

> * Ferocious strikes: Changed to deal 5% more increased critical damage.

> * Hidden Killer: _Added 10% bonus damage to your next 2 attacks after exiting stealth. Counts for stealth attacks._ (I would like to see instead letting you use one charge of your stealth attack after exiting stealth. )

>

> Trickery

> * ~~Lead attacks removed~~. Changed to Contemplate.

> * Contemplate: Using initiative grants you 1% increased boon duration, stacking up to 10 times and +120 concentration at all times.

> * Quick pockets: Now shares your boons with nearby allies when swapping weapons.

>

> Acrobatics

> * Expeditious Dodger removed. Replaced with Sword Play.

> * Sword Play: Gain 10 power and 10 ferocity every time you attack with a sword attack or dual sword attack. Stacks up to 10 times.

> * Vigorous Recovery: Removed. Replaced with Dueling.

> * Dueling: Successfully landing a hit with a sword attack or sword dual skill reduces the initiative cost of your next dual skill by 1. Stacks up to 5 times.

> * Guarded Initiation: Removed. Replaced with Turn the Tides.

> * Turn the Tides: Being hit by damaging condition(Poison, Burn, Confuse, Torment, Bleed) grants you 3 seconds of vigor and 1 initiative. 3 second cooldown.

> * _Don't Stop: removed. Replaced with fencer._

> * _Fencer: Increases your attack speed with sword attacks and dual sword attacks by 25%. Stacks with quickness._ (on the _fence_ with this one)

>

>

> Daredevil:

> * Swipe now heals for 2.5k if it successfully lands

> * Havoc Specialist: Now grants 10% bonus damage at all times, and 2% per missing endurance bar.

>*~~Endurance thief: Now also reduces the duration of all stealth you apply by 2 seconds.~~

> * Bounding Dodger: Now uses the 15% damage increase in all game modes.

> * Lotus Training: Now uses the 15% condition damage increase in all game modes.

>

> Utilities

> * Withdraw: ~~No longer an evade.~~ Reduced cooldown to 15 seconds in WvW and PvP only.

> * Shadows Refuge: ~~No longer pulses stealth, instead instantly applies 4 seconds of stealth~~ and pulses 33% damage and condition damage reduction as well as regeneration instead. Cooldown reduced to 40 seconds.

> * ~~Assassin's Signet: Reduced active power from 540 to 100 in PvP and WvW only.~~

> * ~~ Dagger Storm: No longer an evade in PvP and WvW only.~~

> * ~~Shadow Meld: No longer removes revealed.~~

 

Fixed that for ya, I made comments near the ones that I liked, or weren't sure on

 

Edit: formatting issue

[Antycypator.9874]

> Shadows Refuge: No longer pulses stealth

And it has 40s CD? If I can't stealth anymore longer than few seconds (stealth no longer stacks duration), then maybe just give it only +/- 15s CD.

> Improvisation: Removed. Replaced by Lead Attacks.

I like this trait in Trickery. This is one of the reasons why I play Trickery instead of Deadly Arts on my deadeye. It's literally buff 15% damage in PvE (most thieves run DA/Critical Strikes), and I think it's too much even without it. Do not make more power creep for daredevil, or just nerf this trait up to 5 stacks.

> Havoc Specialist: Now grants 10% bonus damage at all times, and 2% per missing endurance bar.

The point of existing trait is sacrificing something for more damage — your endurance, because thief is a class with high risk.

> Malcious Backstab: Damage bonus per malice reduced to 1% in PvP and WvW only.

LOL. It's literally removing the bonus damage from deadeye. Perhaps for Rifle it would be better because Death's Jugdment is pretty strong, but not for dagger.

> Dagger Storm: No longer an evade in PvP and WvW only.

I agree, but I would add it to all game modes. No more "Unstopable Shredding Machine Mode" button. It should be immobile.

[Aeolus.3615]

> @"AikijinX.6258" said:

> > @"Shiyo.3578" said:

> > > @"AikijinX.6258" said:

> > > lol.

> > >

> > > That was quite a read, and sadly knowing anet, they'd probably agree with most if not all these changes.

> > >

> > > Erase Stealth, Erase Evade, Erase Thief, that's your stance?

> >

> > All of those things are an issue and hold the class back.

>

> Stealth and Evades hold the class back? (A Class that's supposed to be very evasive slippery and stealthy)

> Explain.

 

It is actually a thief not an assassin, stealth trickery back n forth, irritating the enemies is what a thief is made off.

 

It isnt a freaking assassin from gw1 xD

[melody.2601]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> For a “thief main” your suggestions seem really poorly thought out.

>

> I can summarize your suggestions: 1) nerf condi thief, 2) nerf stealth anything thief, 3) nerf evade thief, 4) nerf non-sword thief damage (Assassins Signet to 100), 5) buff sword-acro Daredevil, 6) nerf Deadeye.

>

> Basically, you appear to want to remove every other thief gameplay style from the game except the one you like to play (Pistol Whip +30% PvE damage lol).

 

He doesnt even play Thief, nor is he a Thief Main, he just pretends to get the Class he hates the most to be nerfed into Trash Tier, easily figured out if you check is Post History.

[Tharan.9085]

Those changes would make thief actually worse than berserker

[Mor The Thief.9135]

Too many traits related to Sword only, if you noticed what Anet does they're making at most only 1 trait for a weapon type and if possible make that trait able to buff other weapons as well to a degree...

 

Stealth is something that will not be changed most likely because it's one of the "things" that thief does, if you want to nerf stealth then just make skills of other professions force reveal.

 

Sword does need a buff, and Dual skills in general also need a buff(Pistol Whip being a DPS loss is a big outlier of that), but adding too many traits for those will make it harder to both balance and will make other traits less of a desireable option. Take your desired change to Lead Attacks for example, you have Executioner which is better after 50%, but overall Lead Attacks will still come out on top assuming you're using a build that is focused to using as much initiative as possible which most builds do ASIDE from sword which as I said needs some buffs, even more so with Sword Dual skills being a DPS loss.

 

 

tl;dr: Stealth needs nerf but not what that is suggested here, too many Sword related traits and Dual skills related traits, Sword needs buffs but not with most of what you suggested(regarding traits), too many traits in same tier and same trait line competing with each other while some making all other traits very much be complete garbage to even think of choosing...