Should dps meters get banned?

[Sir Alymer.3406]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> "**While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.**"

>

> so people using arc dps to harass bad players is a bannable offense, it's insulting and offensive.

>

> "**You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars 2 client or server software. Also, you may not modify any part of the official Guild Wars 2 websites, other than the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki in accordance with its terms and conditions.**"

>

> it's not an in game feature to see other people dps, even if it's not cheating it's used to harm people.

>

>

> Using arcdps to check your own dps is a thing, now to check people dps just because they are doing 2k less dps than you and harassing them is another.

>

> so anet should follow the rules and start banning people using it.

>

> **fun fact**: people say the game don't have trinity, it's worse than that, the game is all about dps and healers, anet made alot of prefix to items and people want just to force vipers/zerk/harrier.

>

>

>

>

> i saw people harassing others on fractals just because they did "low dps" even if the fractal was done without a death and was easy, it should be a bannable offense.

 

Let's take another look at that rule, why don't we?

 

*While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.*

 

A bit closer now.

 

*you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.*

 

So if you join a group and you aren't the leader, you agree to allow the leader of said group enjoy the game their way. If, for whatever reason, you don't meet their standards of play or aren't allowing them to have fun, they have every right to remove you from their group and not play with you. This is also true for you. You can make a group, squad, or otherwise and remove players as you see fit. It's your group to do with as you please.

 

Then there's this:

*To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players.*

 

Defraud is to make false statements on. What happens when no one has any metric to measure people's abilities to do damage or give support? They fall back onto what happened back in the day of dungeons; they default to kicking the bad 'classes' and not the actual bad players. So taking away a meter of objective measurement defrauds players who play the 'bad' classes in content.

 

Harassment is something different. Someone telling you that your DPS is bad and that you should bump it up isn't harassment. Someone flaming you about it after you've already been removed from the group beyond the reason for removal (if they wish to give such a thing) is. For example, after getting kicked if you receive something like the following:

"You were removed from group for (reason)", "Improve your DPS", "Get good", etc

You weren't harassed. You were kicked. Messages that qualify as harassment are the unwanted messages that follow after you tell someone to stop or leave you alone.

 

Threaten is pretty self explanatory, but I don't think anyone makes serious threats about people pulling sub par dps. If you do receive a reasonable threat (Something the other could actually act upon) do report it.

 

Embarrass is kind of vague, but I believe this just means not to bring up issues with another player publicly in say or map chat or even just within the squad but to be mindful and talk with the person within whispers. Of course, if the other player makes this impossible by going invisible and refusing to be visible, then it's fair to just state it in the most private chat you can achieve.

 

Causing distress can go both ways. A player not performing their role inside a group really distresses the players within that just want a clear. They are within your right of removing said player there. Likewise, continually calling someone out on their performance may cause distress, but it's about *how* they do it. If it's a polite suggestion, there shouldn't be a problem, but if they're a butt about it, perhaps it falls under this rule.

 

Unwanted attention probably follows the same logic as 'embarrass'.

 

I'd also advise to post actual proof instead of just hearsay of people being harassed about their performance within instanced content. Please do remember the following; people calling out others for their lower-than-expected performance does not equal harassment.

 

To finish this all off, combat data is public data. People can see your boons, healing, buffs, health, and damage (based on how much damage the boss has taken). Someone already linked proof to that earlier in the thread.

 

[ASP.8093]

Come on now, please stop trying to stretch the TOS' definitions of transparently abusive behavior every which way to argue about this. Every mildly negative interaction you might have with another player isn't an example of harassment or fraud.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> "**While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.**"

>

> so people using arc dps to harass bad players is a bannable offense, it's insulting and offensive.

>

> "**You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars 2 client or server software. Also, you may not modify any part of the official Guild Wars 2 websites, other than the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki in accordance with its terms and conditions.**"

>

> it's not an in game feature to see other people dps, even if it's not cheating it's used to harm people.

>

>

> Using arcdps to check your own dps is a thing, now to check people dps just because they are doing 2k less dps than you and harassing them is another.

>

> so anet should follow the rules and start banning people using it.

>

> **fun fact**: people say the game don't have trinity, it's worse than that, the game is all about dps and healers, anet made alot of prefix to items and people want just to force vipers/zerk/harrier.

>

>

>

>

> i saw people harassing others on fractals just because they did "low dps" even if the fractal was done without a death and was easy, it should be a bannable offense.

 

You are aware its mostly not kicked for 2k less dps unless you did less dmg than healers. Harrasing is to assult someone pointing out someone activly slowing down others is another. Alot of ppl dont want to put effort in you maybe fine with failing for hours

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

It is totally not about arcdps, but about certain level of desired player skills a group expects from you.

With or without arcdps you shall **always** need to show **kill proofs** to join high-tier raids or fractal CMs.

And KP nature can change over time. Whatever it be - ping Envoy gear, titles, cosmic essences.. Doesnt matter.

Anyone on any class can join regular T4 fracs or low-kp training raids without great requirements and enjoy the game.

Fine. You wont be kicked from regular groups/squads, which doesnt require meta performance.

 

But those offended by arcdps cant understand one simple thing:

if you perform 10-15k/s on dps class and you are ok with that.. Then **you harass other players right to enjoy the game**.

Because they are forced to carry your lazy slacking body through demanding content. They have to deal with your mistakes.

That is not fair, and you get kicked from high-skilled parties for good reason actually.

Same applies to healers who fail to heal good enough, same for supports who fail to provide boon uptime.

But this is not even related to arcdps and can be seen directly with your eyes

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"MithranArkanere.8957" said:> Yes, they should be banned, like all third party tools should be banned unless official addon support is added, but they won't be banned. It'd be more work than it's worth it. > > Also, encounters like raids should have an indepth break down after bosses, wipes and /gg. Not a DPS meter on the fly, but something better than just the combat log that clearly lists everything with a graph showing who were doing what at any given time, and that also includes the enemy data. > Something to see how you did without showing distracting on the fly data, and without third party tools. It's officially OKed by Anet, not sure what you mean, players have been making add-ons since GW1

it's a problem of our own makingplayers wanted more difficult contents like raid, so anet made raid and take fail mechanic from other MMOs like enrage timer, thus to beat the enrage timer you need to have sufficient dps, which came around biting players in the ass with the elitism that previously existed in other MMOs but not in GW2... so, be careful what we wish for

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > @"Shikaru.7618" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > > > "**While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.**"

> > > > >

> > > > > so people using arc dps to harass bad players is a bannable offense, it's insulting and offensive.

> > > > >

> > > > > "**You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars 2 client or server software. Also, you may not modify any part of the official Guild Wars 2 websites, other than the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki in accordance with its terms and conditions.**"

> > > > >

> > > > > it's not an in game feature to see other people dps, even if it's not cheating it's used to harm people.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Using arcdps to check your own dps is a thing, now to check people dps just because they are doing 2k less dps than you and harassing them is another.

> > > > >

> > > > > so anet should follow the rules and start banning people using it.

> > > > >

> > > > > **fun fact**: people say the game don't have trinity, it's worse than that, the game is all about dps and healers, anet made alot of prefix to items and people want just to force vipers/zerk/harrier.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > i saw people harassing others on fractals just because they did "low dps" even if the fractal was done without a death and was easy, it should be a bannable offense.

> > > >

> > > > So kick and block with no explanation so they can't be offended by anything you've said to them. Got it. Thanks. It's the new "polite!"

> > >

> > > yes, last time my group saw a bad player talking about dps we kicked him at the last boss without saying anything, we did it without a problem with one less player and his dps meter, no offense was needed.

> >

> > How did you quantify this player was bad if no one in your group has objective data to base it on? without a meter and the combat report that comes with it, in a combat scenario, I can feasibly see someone counting the number of downs a particular player incurred, the number of times they were grossly out of position, or similar major action, but beyond that you're at best confirmation biasing yourself.

>

> is this game about only one variable? damage? most of the times the dps meter players are the ones dying and failing the mechanics, because they go glass cannon so they can yell at others "low dps" and harass them while other players get killed trying to ress him, also they never evade boss hits, so their dps can skyrocket then calling healers bad for not saving them.

 

If these are the things you care about then why are you so against arcdps? Arcdps combined with the combat log parser literally shows you who's getting hit by mechanics, who's stopping to res their team, or how many times someone goes down, how many boons you're giving your team. Its not all about damage like you claim.

[Ronald McDonald.8165]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Manasa Devi.7958" said:

> > I don't really care about this kind of thing, I just think any game that has a large part of its player base convinced it needs 3rd party tools to function properly, is an abject failure.

> Yes, the massive dps disparity between players is indeed a problem (very big one) caused by game design. A better designed game might not have had as much need to monitor dps values for players even in more demanding content.

>

 

It is called having depth. Too many games have been simplified beyond belief, GW2 is already relatively simple compared to many of it's peers. But being more casual does not mean better designed. Having room to grow and improve is a good thing, not bad one. I would hate to see the depth GW2 has be taken away.

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

One more thing i can highlight.

In this game there are literally no physical obstacles for anyone to play all the high-end content (except enrage timers).

If you feel offended by "dps toxicity", go create your own squad and play happily with mates alike yourself. Just dont join demanding parties.

What is the problem? I really dont get it.

You post lfg "anyone with whatever crazy builds are welcome. we kick toxic ppl who dares to mention dps", and enjoy your gameplay.

Simple

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Sinful Mustache.3589" said:

> One more thing i can highlight.

> In this game there are literally no physical obstacles for anyone to play all the high-end content (except enrage timers).

> If you feel offended by "dps toxicity", go create your own squad and play happily with mates alike yourself. Just dont join demanding parties.

> What is the problem? I really dont get it.

> You post lfg "anyone with whatever crazy builds are welcome. we kick toxic ppl who dares to mention dps", and enjoy your gameplay.

> Simple

 

Yeah i dont think they want to they want everyone to do as they do for this option exist but mostly these sort of ppl want to be carried but cant for ppl can see they arent doing much

[chris.6583]

dps meters are useful but eventually lead to a toxic player community, to prevent that and keep profitting on people they cant ban all toxic ~~money ~~ players; if you want to use them then play a game that is ok with that, like wow

 

anyway they are not necessary in all game modes, just in a small player base, so i dont think they will be banned

 

why the idc option?, not that i care or something

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"chris.6583" said:

> dps meters are useful but eventually lead to a toxic player community, to prevent that and keep profitting on people they cant ban all toxic ~~money ~~ players; if you want to use them then play a game that is ok with that, like wow

>

> anyway they are not necessary in all game modes, just in a small player base, so i dont think they will be banned

>

> why the idc option?, not that i care or something

 

But here is the deal toxic casuals wishing to carried made more toxic raider as they call. Before meter ppl got kicked who might actually done their job for reasons of ap and class choice with meter it shows to make a change raids need to be nerfed so ppl can work like in ow content but that would also dumb the game down even more as most ppl simply just want reward but dont want to improve or put effort in. To low dps can lead to wipes as enrage timer exists.

[Cyninja.2954]

> @"chris.6583" said:

> dps meters are useful but eventually lead to a toxic player community,

 

There was toxicity before dps meters, there will be toxicity without dps meters. The difference was/is that some toxic players make use of dps meters to justify being toxic, where as before they were toxic due to arbitrary reasons, like assuming on how players or classes performed.

 

Just like how there are toxic players in other parts of the game completely unrelated to dps meters.

 

> @"chris.6583" said:

> to prevent that and keep profitting on people they cant ban all toxic ~~money ~~ players; if you want to use them then play a game that is ok with that, like wow

>

 

Here is the issue though: so far, the use of dps meters within the rules laid out by the developers (aka no memory reading, simply combat log parsing) **is allowed**.

 

Would your suggestion not make a lot more sense if you said: if you do NOT want to use them [dps meters] and do NOT want others to use them, play a game which does not allow dps meters?

[sitarskee.5738]

Hell no. If you feel insecure about your DPS, that's only your problem. People use it to get better not to bash and judge others for their low effort.

[chris.6583]

> @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

>

> But here is the deal toxic casuals wishing to carried made more toxic raider as they call. Before meter ppl got kicked who might actually done their job for reasons of ap and class choice with meter it shows to make a change raids need to be nerfed so ppl can work like in ow content but that would also dumb the game down even more as most ppl simply just want reward but dont want to improve or put effort in. To low dps can lead to wipes as enrage timer exists.

 

dps meter or not players will be toxic in any way or another, you can't ban that if is implemented in the game, like: wipes, enrage, nerfs, etc; all of that is implemented; noob, lazy, disconected, elitist, lagged, frustrated, even troll players are expected

 

what is not implemented or expected is some 3dr party mod that gives you some advantage or disadvantage to other player, like getting kicked for low dps

 

toxic or not if devs wanted it they will implement it, if it is in the approved list then is ok i guess, if not .... then not, that makes the poll kinda pointless

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"chris.6583" said:

> > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said:

> >

> > But here is the deal toxic casuals wishing to carried made more toxic raider as they call. Before meter ppl got kicked who might actually done their job for reasons of ap and class choice with meter it shows to make a change raids need to be nerfed so ppl can work like in ow content but that would also dumb the game down even more as most ppl simply just want reward but dont want to improve or put effort in. To low dps can lead to wipes as enrage timer exists.

>

> dps meter or not players will be toxic in any way or another, you can't ban that if is implemented in the game, like: wipes, enrage, nerfs, etc; all of that is implemented; noob, lazy, disconected, elitist, lagged, frustrated, even troll players are expected

>

> what is not implemented or expected is some 3dr party mod that gives you some advantage or disadvantage to other player, like getting kicked for low dps

>

> toxic or not if devs wanted it they will implement it, if it is in the approved list then is ok i guess, if not .... then not, that makes the poll kinda pointless

 

The tool only shows things you could with math figure out. This shows data already given the second you deal dmg to anything

[Bingus.4236]

Maybe it would be better if getting a certain amount of DPS was an achievement you needed to get into things? Then you wouldn't need the community gatekeeping so much.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"chris.6583" said:

> dps meters are useful but eventually lead to a toxic player community, to prevent that and keep profitting on people they cant ban all toxic ~~money ~~ players; if you want to use them then play a game that is ok with that, like wow

>

> anyway they are not necessary in all game modes, just in a small player base, so i dont think they will be banned

>

> why the idc option?, not that i care or something

 

This game is okay with arcdps. We've covered this. But since you are comfortable making the suggestion to others, perhaps you would like to take your own advice and go find a game that isn't okay with dps meters? After all, it's going to get pretty toxic here eventually what with people telling you which game you should be playing and all.

[IndigoSundown.5419]

DPS Meters are a tool that can be used to guide us to better our builds and rotations, thus leading to better play. Better play not only benefits other players who group with us, but can benefit us as well.

 

DPS meters are also a tool used to single out players whose performance is below a group's acceptable standard for exclusion. While such players have the right to play however they want, the group also has the right to play however _they_ want. That means that such a player and such a group are not a good fit, and the DPS meter as a tool can accurately identify that. Before meters, the ways to identify such situations were spotty or even bad.

 

"Toxicity" is an attitude, and can manifest in many ways. While abusing other players is not OK, it's not abusive to simply drop someone from the group if they don't provide what the group wants. It is not abusive to tell them why. Where the abuse comes in is, perhaps, in _how_ the group tells the player. All players are entitled to play as they like, but that does not mean they are entitled to play with _whoever they like_ in instanced group content.

 

Having standards is fine. It's imo useful, though, to have a sense of when to apply them. Did your group advertise what they wanted or not? Also, is the standard really necessary for the content?

 

A couple of weeks ago, eight members of my guild were doing strikes. We were doing _Shiverpeaks Pass_ , which was the daily, and added two pugs. The following occurred.

 

PUG 1: "I don't see a Rev. Is someone else doing Alacrity?"

GUILD LEADER: "We don't need Alacrity for this one."

PUG 1: [leaves group]

 

That player is certainly welcome to his/her standards. I have to question, though, whether they were served by them in that case. Would the amount of time saved warrant leaving an "all welcome" group to wait for one which met their standards?

[TrOtskY.5927]

> @"Halbarz.3854" said:

> I voted YES, as I do not believe a DPS meter is required to play any of the current content in the game and in its current form are not healthy for the game.

>

> I will say this: I would not mind it if I could only see my own damage and if it was built by Anet. This would still give people the option to use it and optimize their build if they cannot figure it out on their own.

>

> Anet should with this: Restrict the usage of it, to reflect only your own output!

> Also the Poll is missing an option, No but should be restricted to personal output only

>

>

 

Posts like this are really an example of total ignorance, and I really mean it, you don't know what you are talking about.

 

This game has bosses that have very real DPS checks. You NEED damage to deal with this.

 

Secondly, when running training groups of is extremely important for the leader to be able to pinpoint what is going wrong, and a DPS meter is the only way to know which of the DPS players are pulling their weight

 

We can then help those with bad DPS with better builds and advice.

 

If you want to play baby content then sure meters are not needed.

 

I will never lead a training run without this tool.

[Electra.7530]

I'd like to know how my dps and performance stacks up to others'.

[kharmin.7683]

IMO, if a DPS meter/checker were needed to complete content in GW2, then Anet would have provided one. That's not to say that many players get a lot out of the 3rd party add-in; I'm sure that they do.

[Sinful Mustache.3589]

The only weird thing about dps meters for me is that anet introduced some kind of it with training golem, but you must pay 300g to use it (if you dont have friends to tag up).

300g is insane cost for basic feature like training rotations

[TrOtskY.5927]

> @"Sir Alymer.3406" said:

> > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > "**While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.**"

> >

> > so people using arc dps to harass bad players is a bannable offense, it's insulting and offensive.

> >

> > "**You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars 2 client or server software. Also, you may not modify any part of the official Guild Wars 2 websites, other than the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki in accordance with its terms and conditions.**"

> >

> > it's not an in game feature to see other people dps, even if it's not cheating it's used to harm people.

> >

> >

> > Using arcdps to check your own dps is a thing, now to check people dps just because they are doing 2k less dps than you and harassing them is another.

> >

> > so anet should follow the rules and start banning people using it.

> >

> > **fun fact**: people say the game don't have trinity, it's worse than that, the game is all about dps and healers, anet made alot of prefix to items and people want just to force vipers/zerk/harrier.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > i saw people harassing others on fractals just because they did "low dps" even if the fractal was done without a death and was easy, it should be a bannable offense.

>

> Let's take another look at that rule, why don't we?

>

> *While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.*

>

> A bit closer now.

>

> *you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.*

>

 

This works both ways. Why should a group of 9 have to put up with 1 person who does not respect their time?

[TrOtskY.5927]

> @"kharmin.7683" said:

> IMO, if a DPS meter/checker were needed to complete content in GW2, then Anet would have provided one. That's not to say that many players get a lot out of the 3rd party add-in; I'm sure that they do.

 

Dude there are raids with DPS checks.

[SeikeNz.3526]

> @"TrOtskY.5927" said:

> > @"Sir Alymer.3406" said:

> > > @"SeikeNz.3526" said:

> > > "**While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game. To this end, you may not defraud, harass, threaten, embarrass or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other players. This includes posting insulting, offensive, or abusive comments about players, repeatedly sending unwanted messages, reporting players maliciously, attacking a player based on race, sexual orientation, religion, heritage, etc. Hate speech is not tolerated.**"

> > >

> > > so people using arc dps to harass bad players is a bannable offense, it's insulting and offensive.

> > >

> > > "**You may not modify any part of the Guild Wars 2 client or server software. Also, you may not modify any part of the official Guild Wars 2 websites, other than the official Guild Wars 2 Wiki in accordance with its terms and conditions.**"

> > >

> > > it's not an in game feature to see other people dps, even if it's not cheating it's used to harm people.

> > >

> > >

> > > Using arcdps to check your own dps is a thing, now to check people dps just because they are doing 2k less dps than you and harassing them is another.

> > >

> > > so anet should follow the rules and start banning people using it.

> > >

> > > **fun fact**: people say the game don't have trinity, it's worse than that, the game is all about dps and healers, anet made alot of prefix to items and people want just to force vipers/zerk/harrier.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > i saw people harassing others on fractals just because they did "low dps" even if the fractal was done without a death and was easy, it should be a bannable offense.

> >

> > Let's take another look at that rule, why don't we?

> >

> > *While playing Guild Wars 2, you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.*

> >

> > A bit closer now.

> >

> > *you must respect the rights of others and their rights to play and enjoy the Game.*

> >

>

> This works both ways. Why should a group of 9 have to put up with 1 person who does not respect their time?

 

nothing like picking texts out of context to read what you want, nice try