Should dps meters get banned?

[HnRkLnXqZ.1870]

1.) People who install it, keep it running. In Dungeons, in Open World events and other places it is not necessary at all. Every year during Halloween, we have these [word] who run the meter in the Labyrinth squads and kick people according to the data of the meter. "It is too difficult to shut it down, I just keep it running. Self optimization only, promise!" And alliances are launched next tuesday, sure. Or this topic. They may use other methods, once the meter is shut down. But it would not be that easy to bully other players.

 

2.) The Special Forces Training Area has everything you need to train and self-optimize. It even has a built-in DPS meter. Even the Raid/Fractal/Strikemission community highly recommends to train at the golem to learn an optimize the rotations.

 

3.) We get this kind of topics a lot. I sometimes engage in the attack, sometimes try to balance and even defend them recently. I do not really like to see any content getting discontinued. It is a part of the game. Probably not a part I like, but there are people who like it. With every piece on the tall stack of discontinued-projects, the game loses variety. But as Bobby said, the raid-team does no longer exist. So we are stuck with Fractals and Strike Missions for now. Those two pieces require little to no peak-performance at all. In my guild, we did T4 Fractals and Strike Missions with non-meta compositions and non-meta builds. It works. You are probably not as fast as the professionals and may have to improvise a little more. But on the other hand, we enjoy that content. Who said you should spend as little time as possible in the instances? Skip what can be skipped? Exploit every boss and every mechanic? If you do not want to play that content, do not play it! The developers made all of these wonderful mechanics to be played, not exploited by some cheap speedrunners. Never wondered why Strike Missions are so empty? Why you are demoted to gladiators in a giant arena? We started with Dungeons and LW dungeons with huge maps, different paths connected with each others. Epic lore and side-stories. Awesome maps with breathtaking attention to detail. Now we are in arena-fights, because they can be completed in minimum time. Forging Steel, the only Strike Mission that barely leans toward the old style is hated for being SO LONG and TAKING SO MUCH TIME. If you continue with this Efficiency > Everything strategy, you will end the Strike Missions as well. Another piece on the stack. If the meter gets removed, they may slow down. As long as there is a visible counter, they keep running as fast as possible to beat it.

 

 

[Cuks.8241]

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> I dont like results being thrown at me when I dont ask for them. You use it, you keep it to yourself unless I ask. I'm aware enough to know when I mess up and when I dont. I dont care for numbers. I care for actions. I like to review how I performed in Actions. If the person throwing said results at me doesn't produce said actions, then I dont care. Too many variables can influence numbers. Few can influence actions.

 

What kind of actions beyond what dps meter evaluates do you look at and how do you quantify them? Also what additional variables influence numbers and how do you get more objective quantification than dps meter with taking those variables into account?

 

Anyway, it has been said before. DPS meter is the most objective quantification of performance we have currently. Dps meter doesn't care about meta, only about performance.

Also if you join a group you need to conform to the group's requirements. If that is certain DPS well so be it. Otherwise, make a group of your own or join one that is closer to your expectations. Funnily last week I got kicked from a dungeon group because I did too much dps. When I asked why, they said they wanted a core, low lvl experience (I should have read the lfg text). Not complaining, just saying there are groups out there that might suit your playstyle.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"Cuks.8241" said:

> > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > I dont like results being thrown at me when I dont ask for them. You use it, you keep it to yourself unless I ask. I'm aware enough to know when I mess up and when I dont. I dont care for numbers. I care for actions. I like to review how I performed in Actions. If the person throwing said results at me doesn't produce said actions, then I dont care. Too many variables can influence numbers. Few can influence actions.

>

> What kind of actions beyond what dps meter evaluates do you look at and how do you quantify them? Also what additional variables influence numbers and how do you get more objective quantification than dps meter with taking those variables into account?

>

> Anyway, it has been said before. DPS meter is the most objective quantification of performance we have currently. Dps meter doesn't care about meta, only about performance.

> Also if you join a group you need to conform to the group's requirements. If that is certain DPS well so be it. Otherwise, make a group of your own or join one that is closer to your expectations. Funnily last week I got kicked from a dungeon group because I did too much dps. When I asked why, they said they wanted a core, low lvl experience (I should have read the lfg text). Not complaining, just saying there are groups out there that might suit your playstyle.

 

I dont recall the tool's name, but I saw very in depths records, along with a full replay of the encounter, which takes into account positioning, dodges, interruptions and skill use in real time, that can be replayed and paused at any point in time, showing what everyone did at every second of the encounter. Now -that- I can learn from. That I can see where I followed rotation or where I didn't. I can see when I rezed someone (incurring a DPS loss that someone who doesn't care about actions wouldn't look twice at), when I get locked by say, Mathias and not get CC fast enough (incurring yet more DPS loss). Those are variables you dont see on a simple DPS meter. Similarly, if for a reason or another the dedicated buffer is slightly out of range in an encounter that requires constant movement, the DPS will vary for all members of the squad based on their position and that of the buffer. Something which again, incurs a DPS loss, but doesn't properly appear in a reading unless you do such a full replay (which many do not).

 

You get a lot more value from data, if you dont look *only* at numbers, which is what my early interractions with the mode has been. Luckily found a group who has been largely more professional about it. And I mean that in a good way.

 

Just to clarify : I do raid on the occasion, as a condi holo, which I am told is not the easiest class to play. I mostly conform to meta, in gear and skill use, but not in rotation due to my dyspraxia. I still get stuff done, and will continue to do so.

[Cuks.8241]

@"Naxos.2503"

I thought you are reading raw combat log :)

Anyway, when I say "dps meter" I have all the functions in minds, not just pure dps.

[Naxos.2503]

> @"Cuks.8241" said:

> @"Naxos.2503"

> I thought you are reading raw combat log :)

> Anyway, when I say "dps meter" I have all the functions in minds, not just pure dps.

 

In that case yus, it's just a matter of people not reading past the numbers which bothers me. There are a lot of reasons why said numbers vary from the "expected result", and those are often forgotten, people just see a low DPS and will essentially judge here and there. Looking at a replay of the encounter, and seeing what happens is a Much more profitable and particularly enlightening experience than being told "Your DPS is too low, get out". I'm still not keen on having people literally comparing DPS with me when I dont ask. But I'm a lot more appreciative if I can see the replay, because you can actually Learn from it, as opposed to a flat number, where the only thing you learn is you're purportedly not doing enough of it to warrant being in that squad, something which to be honest doesn't exactly tell the person how to improve.

[Teratus.2859]

I do not like DPS meters but I don't think they should be banned.

 

Gw2 doesn't have them build into the game though so with that in mind I do think that using them to criticise other people does reflect poorly on you as a player.

 

If you're interested in maxing DPS and you want to organise high DPS groups then that's fine, DPS meters are a useful and harmless tool for doing that.

But if you join other peoples groups, use the DPS meter and then criticise people for not playing to your expectations then you're the one the group should be kicking.

[phokus.8934]

Too many people using their RP builds wanting to get carried.

 

If you’re playing below the Mendoza Line then you don’t belong in that group for that content.

 

Learn your class and rotations for that content.

[Blueberry.8095]

No, banning dps meter will cause entering a party raised to an even higher requirement, or causing groups more hesitant to pug their last few slots, as well as makes training harder and the trainer cannot tell if he/she should give any suggestion to the trainee. Have fun having to ping KP + gear + build while entering a party every single time when dps meter is no more.

 

Getting kicked from not using a meta build and getting kicked from poor performance are 2 different things, people only have issue with said build if the said person's DPS is **as low as a support** if the said person signed up as a DPS, which means it'd be totally on the said person.

 

 

[Khisanth.2948]

Should people who fail to learn from history be banned? In case it's not clear this is you OP.

 

Without DPS meter people still behave the same. This was already shown in the early parts of the game's life. Long before the DPS meters even existed. The reasons were just more arbitrary. So you think arbitrarily kicking people is **better** than kicking with actual evidence?

 

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > @"Cuks.8241" said:

> > > @"Naxos.2503" said:

> > > I dont like results being thrown at me when I dont ask for them. You use it, you keep it to yourself unless I ask. I'm aware enough to know when I mess up and when I dont. I dont care for numbers. I care for actions. I like to review how I performed in Actions. If the person throwing said results at me doesn't produce said actions, then I dont care. Too many variables can influence numbers. Few can influence actions.

> >

> > What kind of actions beyond what dps meter evaluates do you look at and how do you quantify them? Also what additional variables influence numbers and how do you get more objective quantification than dps meter with taking those variables into account?

> >

> > Anyway, it has been said before. DPS meter is the most objective quantification of performance we have currently. Dps meter doesn't care about meta, only about performance.

> > Also if you join a group you need to conform to the group's requirements. If that is certain DPS well so be it. Otherwise, make a group of your own or join one that is closer to your expectations. Funnily last week I got kicked from a dungeon group because I did too much dps. When I asked why, they said they wanted a core, low lvl experience (I should have read the lfg text). Not complaining, just saying there are groups out there that might suit your playstyle.

>

> I dont recall the tool's name, but I saw very in depths records, along with a full replay of the encounter, which takes into account positioning, dodges, interruptions and skill use in real time, that can be replayed and paused at any point in time, showing what everyone did at every second of the encounter. Now -that- I can learn from. That I can see where I followed rotation or where I didn't. I can see when I rezed someone (incurring a DPS loss that someone who doesn't care about actions wouldn't look twice at), when I get locked by say, Mathias and not get CC fast enough (incurring yet more DPS loss). Those are variables you dont see on a simple DPS meter. Similarly, if for a reason or another the dedicated buffer is slightly out of range in an encounter that requires constant movement, the DPS will vary for all members of the squad based on their position and that of the buffer. Something which again, incurs a DPS loss, but doesn't properly appear in a reading unless you do such a full replay (which many do not).

>

> You get a lot more value from data, if you dont look *only* at numbers, which is what my early interractions with the mode has been. Luckily found a group who has been largely more professional about it. And I mean that in a good way.

>

> Just to clarify : I do raid on the occasion, as a condi holo, which I am told is not the easiest class to play. I mostly conform to meta, in gear and skill use, but not in rotation due to my dyspraxia. I still get stuff done, and will continue to do so.

 

That is a combination of tools. Arc generates the logs and then you can either use https://github.com/baaron4/GW2-Elite-Insights-Parser or upload the logs to dps.report for the other features you mentioned.

[Kodama.6453]

No.

 

Feedback is needed for people to improve and having this tool allows for this feedback.

For example, I was doing a strike mission some weeks ago with random people.

One warrior joined the group and declared that they are playing the dps role.

 

That warrior had a dps of 4k. No matter how you look at it, that guy needed to improve heavily. It is dragging the group down too much if a player, who declares to play dps, deals less damage than our dedicated healers.

We didn't throw him out of the group ourselves, but pointed out to him that he needs to do his research for builds and rotations when he wants to enter some content.

He left the group on his own after telling us that he will look at the sites we told him about to improve his performance.

[keenedge.9675]

All gw2.exe memory peekers should be banned. .

There should be a gw2 scan tool that blocks gw2 if one is present.

[Carcharoth Lucian.1378]

> @"keenedge.9675" said:

> All gw2.exe memory peekers should be banned. .

> There should be a gw2 scan tool that blocks gw2 if one is present.

 

Except this is not how arc dps works..

 

I'll requote myself from another thread :

> @"Carcharoth Lucian.1378" said:

> > @"LittleBigAsura.6071" said:

> > is this legal? how come no ArenaNet employee made a statement about ArcDPS?

>

> They did :

>

> By Chris Cleary (GM Shazbot) :

>

> 1)

(his reddit account was deleted since)

> 2)

>

> There is no issue with arcdps (except if someday in future they would break the tos).

 

[TwoGhosts.6790]

There is so much snowflake and deluded Intolerance in this thread that it is staggering.

 

And these people think that those who use arcdps for their own self improvement are the problem.

 

Take a good look in the mirror.

[Astyrah.4015]

i don't think arcdps is in any way harmful. like any tool, harm (or in this case group/party toxicity) can only come from the user's will.

[Asum.4960]

To address a couple of point's against DPS Meter's that I've seen in this thread:

 

> DPS Meter's should just show your own numbers, not those of others

 

Data is vastly less useful without contextual information about the environment it was created in.

If you just had your own DPS, you could look at your own log thinking you did terribly due to fairly low dps, but within the full scope of the data actually realise that you were infact top DPS and it was just a rough fight with lot's own downtime/ressing etc., giving you no reason to question your own abilities in that case.

Similarly you could look at your own stats thinking you did great, but within the full scope of the data realise that on that encounter other professions/builds (or even the same played much better) perform so vastly better that what you thought was "okay" DPS left you far and wide at the bottom of the squad's DPS's, which could give you reasons to rethink your approach and motivate you to do better.

 

Sure you can still check in with yourself/compare your own numbers for clues of progress, but I don't see a valid reason to downgrade the DPS meter's functionality so drastically just to protect some egos/leechers from being exposed.

 

Contextual information is incredibly useful and primarily not to call out others, but to track and compare your own numbers to for self-improvement purposes.

 

> I don't need DPS Meter's to know how I (or others) perform

 

That's a big one which I have encountered many times in pugs and generally speaking that could not be more untrue.

From people ranting at others for low DPS while clearly performing terribly themselves, to pushing for kicks of non meta build players who were actually hard carrying the group with by far the highest DPS, all the way to people boasting about that their build does more DPS than meta builds because they have seen their Axe 5 do 100k damage in collective number popups, thinking that correlates to DPS - I've seen about everything from player's not using DPS Meter's, and while using them would likely be a very rude awakening to many about their own performance, longterm I can't see how that wouldn't be an improvement for the player bases of group content (and even OW for that matter, 1-2 players casually doing 30-50% of the damage of a 30+ man Squad in meta events is fairly mindblowing, and I'm sure all these people think they are doing just fine, when in reality most OW players scale up bosses more with their presence than what they are contributing, having a direct negative impact).

 

> DPS Meter's lead to discrimination

 

Most players using DPS Meter's don't care much for anyone else's DPS, other than for comparative measures about their own performance, unless someone drastically underperforms, like DPS players being out dps'ed by pure supports levels of bad, hindering progression.

Discrimination generally comes from lack of information and understanding, not with it.

And sure, if you actually perform terribly you might get called out, but that's a lot more fair and better than players being kicked even though they have put the work in and practiced and are trying really hard, just because they are playing the "wrong" profession, even though they are actually doing fine, while someone else is quietly leeching on a meta profession and such.

Without DPS Meter's we are just back to actual discrimination despite performance, based on useless metrics like AP and such.

 

> We have the Aerodrome Golem, that's enough

 

The DPS Golem is a fantastic tool to practice in preparation for actual encounters, but it is by no means a substitute for a DPS Meter, instead they both go hand in hand on the road of self-improvement.

Additionally some builds or often even entire specs bench fairly terribly on the golem, but can actually pull very competitive numbers on specific fights due to ease of damage application and such, see for example Scourge.

Without DPS meter's those specs are simply shunned for being bad due to their Golem performance, with DPS meter's you can simply prove by action that you can pull your weight on them.

 

> I don't want my data being spied on

 

DPS Meter's don't steal or spy on your data. What damage you do, when you heal a player, what boons you apply for how long and how you move and where you stand is there for everybody else to see, it's not "your data" to begin with.

DPS Meter's are just better at approximating and tracking that public data.

 

You can't join a group activity and then just forbid everybody else from looking at what you are doing, no matter how bad you may behave/perform. DPS Meter or not.

 

> @"Naxos.2503" said:

> I dont recall the tool's name, but I saw very in depths records, along with a full replay of the encounter, which takes into account positioning, dodges, interruptions and skill use in real time, that can be replayed and paused at any point in time, showing what everyone did at every second of the encounter. Now -that- I can learn from. That I can see where I followed rotation or where I didn't. I can see when I rezed someone (incurring a DPS loss that someone who doesn't care about actions wouldn't look twice at), when I get locked by say, Mathias and not get CC fast enough (incurring yet more DPS loss). Those are variables you dont see on a simple DPS meter.

 

That tool's name is Arc DPS, where you can look at and replay the generated logs by uploading them to something like dps.report.

 

As final note, I was afraid of DPS Meter's and "being tracked" as well before ever using them but then saw how it's simply not a big deal after trying them out, and it can't be overstated how incredibly useful they are for self-imporvement.

It doesn't matter how casual you are, I can highly recommend giving it a try. Seeing where you actually stand and what you are contributing can be an incredible motivator and can lead you to get so much more out of the game.

 

The tool itself does not encourage toxicity and elitism, quite the opposite - it can be incredibly useful in dispelling some of those presumptions.

[AgentMoore.9453]

Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me.

 

Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion.

[Astralporing.1957]

Lack of DPS meters will not stop people from getting kicked from any more demanding content if the overall group dps is not so good (and _that_ can be easily seen with no damage meters whatsoever). It will only make the kicks be based on much less fair reasons than your actual performance - on having not enough KP from said content, on having not enough KP from _other_ content, on having not enough AP, on not bein meta enough, on running a wrong class...

 

We've seen this stuff already long before ArcDPS became a thing. I'd rather not see a return to those times again.

[waxx.3619]

Sorry friend but DPS meter is a measure to improve yourself. If you are not doing well on the meter and note I said well ( 10k dps atleast for bosses ) then you are hurting your group and you need to practice your rotations more. How is that fair for the others in the group who are also having not a good time because now they have to play even better to pick up the missing dps.

[Dark Red Killian.3946]

This is coming from someone who doesn’t use a dps meter. I would only care about wanting to use one to personally see my own dps. Let’s face it, some content can be tough if you are not dealing enough damage. This can help improve performance by you getting to know your character better and figure out why you are not dealing enough damage. Perhaps anet should implement a self dps meter. You can see your own dps, and if you choose to share it, perhaps others could see it. But, please people. Let’s not be toxic about others dps.

[Atomos.7593]

I don't think removing a dps meter would solve the problem of players kicking others for low dps or not playing the meta. A dps meter is also useful for personal reasons like testing different builds and gear combinations. You're better off just avoiding playing with the players that force dps or meta requirements, if you don't want to play that way.

[ASP.8093]

> @"AgentMoore.9453" said:

> Being that the meters are third-party programs that give you the data of other players, yes they should be taken out of commission. I have no issue with someone monitoring their own output or trying to improve themselves, but tools that allow you to police others without their consent (even if your intentions are to be helpful), seem like a terrible idea to me.

>

> Ideally, ArenaNet should implement a (free) feature into their game that lets you monitor your DPS on a client-side basis, much like how you can check your FPS at any given time. If your party asked for that number, you could share or not share at your own discretion.

 

The idea that basic state synced across all game clients is your private data is pretty absurd. It's not like the tool is peeking into your inventory, tracking your key strokes, or CCing other players on your /whispers.

 

I've never met anyone who was a jerk *because of* ArcDPS or similar. And the DPS report website thingy does make it far, far easier to actually understand what happened during a Raid (perhaps in a way that makes it a bit too obvious just how *tedious* Raids are, but I don't blame the tool for that).

 

N.B. I say all this as someone who doesn't use any game add-ons myself, because I don't like the constant upgrade fuss and they're mostly unavailable on my platform.

[Shadowmoon.7986]

If anything anet should allow people to create an inspect add on. Give people the ability to effectively filter out the chaff. This in turn will add positive pressure for people to get better at the game.

[LuRkEr.9462]

No, when you are playing hard content you don't want to be carrying someone. I have seen so many people doing 3-5k dps that thought they did so much more and had no idea.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

Yes, they should be banned, like all third party tools should be banned unless official addon support is added, but they won't be banned. It'd be more work than it's worth it.

 

Also, encounters like raids should have an indepth break down after bosses, wipes and /gg. Not a DPS meter on the fly, but something better than just the combat log that clearly lists everything with a graph showing who were doing what at any given time, and that also includes the enemy data.

Something to see how you did without showing distracting on the fly data, and without third party tools.

[Esterie.7409]

> @"Asum.4960" said:

> As final note, I was afraid of DPS Meter's and "being tracked" as well before ever using them but then saw how it's simply not a big deal after trying them out, and it can't be overstated how incredibly useful they are for self-imporvement.

> It doesn't matter how casual you are, I can highly recommend giving it a try. Seeing where you actually stand and what you are contributing can be an incredible motivator and can lead you to get so much more out of the game.

 

I was originally going to just vote and move on, but this post stated how I feel better than I could so I thought I'd add my voice as well.

 

I don't yet use a DPS meter, nor do I do fractals or raids, but I have spent a good amount of time at the training golem despite only doing strikes here and there. I was one of those people who thought I'd never be able to get a rotation down, that no matter what my skill level would be lacking and I would be a detriment to groups. After hacking at the golem and practicing my rotation for a bit when strikes were released, I eventually started seeing recommended DPS numbers. And I was excited! It gave me the confidence to jump into strikes, and now I've completed all but Boneskinner (one day....) and hope to continue doing strikes for the Runic Cape. Maybe raids and fractals are in my future after my confidence grows further or I try more builds, who knows.

 

So no, I am not in favor of DPS meters being banned, though I would love if there was a baked-in version other than the training golem.